Dolphin Online - Melee Netplay

[danny135]

I want in on this. Skype is dannny135

 

[JMC4789]

channelsrfr: I think you have enough bandwidth to play, it's not great internet, but the ping is what's important. As long as you 2x dialup, you'll be fine.

 

[Fishaman P]

channelsrfr: I think you have enough bandwidth to play, it's not great internet, but the ping is what's important. As long as you 2x dialup, you'll be fine.

Theoretically, isn't dialup enough bandwidth for netplay?
It's just the horrible ping, right?

 

[JMC4789]

Actually, for dolphin it isn't. Dialup is not enough bandwidth to send controller data at full speed. It can only handle about 45 - 50 fps on 56k, and that's about 2kb/s upload

 

[Nintendude]

I'm preparing a PC build right now and want to make sure I will be able to run Melee online without any hiccups. I'm planning to go with the Intel Core i5-3570K 3.4GHz x4, 8 GB RAM, and EVGA GeForce GTX 660. Is this sufficient? Also, are there any compatibility problems with Win8?

 

[Sangoku]

If you look at knitephox's post in this thread, there's the benchmark for that CPU. I suppose you're going to overclock? I don't think the GPU really matters and even if it does, yours should be enough. I have a 670 and absolutely no problem GPU-wise.

Also, windows 8 works just fine.

 

[Nintendude]

I'm honestly not sure what is meant by "benchmark" in this context. Is he OCing to 4.3 GHz to get it to run smoothly?

 

[Sangoku]

Yeah I guess so. But if you're buying a "k" version, you're planning overclocking?

I could have used "test" if you think the word is more appropriate. I don't speak english and I don't make the difference between the two words...

 

[JMC4789]

We do not recommend Windows 8 because Desktop Window Manager cannot be disabled, and that can cause lag on some adapters/keyboards because of how Windows handles inputs. Hell, on my laptop, I can't play games with keyboard without DWM causing a 2 - 3 frame delay.

Also, an i5 2500k does not need to be overclocked to run this full speed, neither does an i5 3570k. As you can see by the benchmark, he was well above 60 fps on most stages, and there was obviously a different chokepoint on FoD, because going to 4 players didn't cause any extra lag than two players.

Also, I heavily recommend nVidia cards for this, because they tend to be more stable with Dolphin.

Nintendodude1189: You won't need to overclock with that build, it's more than strong enough. You'll probably be able to hit up FoD even because of the nVidia card and the hacked buffer upload feature in OpenGL, that really can harness the power of nVidia cards.

 

[Dan Salvato]

We do not recommend Windows 8 because Desktop Window Manager cannot be disabled, and that can cause lag on some adapters/keyboards because of how Windows handles inputs.

I'm curious about this. Do you have a source?

 

[Sangoku]

I have Windows 8 and I don't have any problem for either melee on dolphin or 64 on pj.

 

[Kadano]

I've downloaded the latest release (1251) and PAL doesn't run near as smooth as NTSC on it. Of course I have set it to 60Hz ingame, but none of the settings make the game run at 60 fps and the audio play properly. It's working with NTSC just fine.

 

[Nintendude]

Nintendodude1189: You won't need to overclock with that build, it's more than strong enough. You'll probably be able to hit up FoD even because of the nVidia card and the hacked buffer upload feature in OpenGL, that really can harness the power of nVidia cards.

Great thanks for the info.

 

[KnitePhox]

the only reason to OC with a 3570k is...you have a K series cpu

its so easy to OC these dood

getting the frames i did was with a ****TY radeon card, you don't need to worry about anything if you have a current gen GTX, apparently cuda/nvidia cards are **** for dolphin

if you can get it, a 660ti is super better than a 660 for like +50$. you get over 33% more cuda muscle for ~+25% monies. the only true negative beyond the $ vs those two is the 660ti sucks a little more power

unrelated: im going to delid my 3570k soon and try to hit 5ghz+ with some ~100% metal thermal material

 

[GaretHax]

Wow this is really awesome, finally got it setup last night. I run a PhenomII x4 965 be (125w): 3.9, 2.6k NB, 2k HT and am just a couple fps shy of being able to play doubles (50-55fps), however running in dual core mode allows me to do essentially anything I want lol. So that kinda makes mr wonder, what is causing instability when running in dual core mode and will it become a stable option in the near-future?

 

[tyraa]

sorry but where do i find the hacked buffer upload?

 

[Luo_Zhao]

We do not recommend Windows 8 because Desktop Window Manager cannot be disabled, and that can cause lag on some adapters/keyboards because of how Windows handles inputs. Hell, on my laptop, I can't play games with keyboard without DWM causing a 2 - 3 frame delay.

Also, an i5 2500k does not need to be overclocked to run this full speed, neither does an i5 3570k. As you can see by the benchmark, he was well above 60 fps on most stages, and there was obviously a different chokepoint on FoD, because going to 4 players didn't cause any extra lag than two players.

Also, I heavily recommend nVidia cards for this, because they tend to be more stable with Dolphin.

Nintendodude1189: You won't need to overclock with that build, it's more than strong enough. You'll probably be able to hit up FoD even because of the nVidia card and the hacked buffer upload feature in OpenGL, that really can harness the power of nVidia cards.

Just presenting the opposite of this... I'm using Windows 8 x64, an i3-3225, and an AMD Radeon 7870 XT (Tahiti LE). No problems whatsoever.
An Ivy Bridge i3 is sufficient to run 60fps on single core, even with 4 players on FD.

 

[JMC4789]

sorry but where do i find the hacked buffer upload?

It's in the Graphics Settings under the OpenGL plugin, in the hacks section.

 

[Upke]

sorry but where do i find the hacked buffer upload?

Graphics -> Hacks -> Other

It's in the Graphics Settings under the OpenGL plugin, in the hacks section.

God damn it, JMC.

 

[nmn]

Just presenting the opposite of this... I'm using Windows 8 x64, an i3-3225, and an AMD Radeon 7870 XT (Tahiti LE). No problems whatsoever.
An Ivy Bridge i3 is sufficient to run 60fps on single core, even with 4 players on FD.

DWM is still causing some time-to-display lag, whether or not it actually impacts your play. It is vastly improved in Windows 8, and it probably yields less lag as a result. As usual, YMMV.

I can not say for sure that it is better than previous versions of DWM, only that I definitely felt additional latency from 7 without DWM.

Also, whether you use the DirectX or OpenGL backend has a great impact on the effect of DWM (DirectX and DWM play together a lot nicer, possibly because of DirectX's more comprehensive buffer swapping APIs.)

I'm curious about this. Do you have a source?

I'm running Windows 8 on two computers. There's really not much to source.

If you want to know the specifics of how Windows 8 behaves regarding DWM, it's like this:

• There is a new DirectX software renderer that's actually designed for speed (prior, there was one designed specifically to act as an implementation reference - it was slow as paste, but produced supposedly pixel-perfect rendering to the specification. Edit: Just to be clear, the "new" software renderer was added in 7, if I remember correctly.)
• Windows now includes a VESA driver by default. Previous versions used int 10h calls a.k.a VGA, which limited them to 640x480. VESA calls, however, allow for fairly high resolutions (post 1080p even) but no real acceleration (perhaps some 2D acceleration?)
• When you run Windows 8 without graphics drivers, it will use the new DirectX software rasterizer with dwm to render, and the VESA standard to get it out to the screen.
• When you run Windows 8 with a graphics driver, it will use DirectX hardware rasterization, plus dwm to render.
• Safe mode has changed. dwm always runs.
• If you kill dwm, it is relaunched. Nothing ever displays on the screen without dwm.

However, I don't think it causes lag on the keyboard so much as it can cause lag on accelerated graphics. While reports have been mixed, and I do understand there might be more coming into play, my understanding is that it has to do mostly with 1. ) Human perception, which may lead someone to believe there are other factors to the latency than there actually is, and 2. ) the fact that DWM leads to additional buffering. Since DWM paints the entire screen, you are no longer speaking directly to the graphics card. When you swap your buffers, DWM still has to swap its buffers.

I'd just like to repeat that there is probably a lot of human perception mucking this up. Even though lag definitely can affect one's play, that does not mean one can readily identify it. Modern computers have literally oodles of places where lag is added - there's a ton of things between you moving a joystick, and something happening on screen. Even if you only measure from the point of the joystick moving to the point of the program receiving new data. Some people actually push their USB ports above specifications to poll faster and reduce latency - and, of course, that helps, if you want to eliminate some USB lag.

 

[JMC4789]

Oh, yeah, when I say lag, I don't actually mean slowdown, I'm trying to say that there's button latency added in. I didn't know it could differ between back-ends. Just because DWM is running does not mean you can't reach 60 fps, it also doesn't mean it'll affect your performance. I just wanted to note there are times it can cause a delay in input to screen recognition, but I didn't actually know why. Thanks for the thorough explanation.

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

someone add me to the skype group?

superboomfan

 

[oats_]

someone add me to the skype group?

superboomfan

Oh ****, it begins.

 

[Fizzi]

So I've recently done some work on a set a programs that are designed to aid in finding people to play with. Currently we're pretty spread out on skype, facebook, steam, irc, etc. The idea behind this is that when you feel like playing you can go and make a lobby, advertise the game settings you feel like playing with, and people can see it, join, chat, and start playing.

There are still many features that may be possible to implement in the future such as:
-Automatic starting of Dolphin
-IP Address hiding
-Calculation of Ideal Host
-Tournament Mode

I post here about it though because I need to be able to run my server application on a windows server for the app to work. Does anyone have access to a windows machine that could be used for this purpose?

The source code can be found here:
https://github.com/JLaferri/MeleeMatchFinder

It is written in C# and uses WPF and WCF. Note that I have taken some shortcuts because I did not want to spend too much time on it so some things may not necessarily be coded in a clean fashion.

 

[oats_]

Fizzi, I have a friend who manages a few gameservers for games like CS, TF2 etc. I believe he is hosting it on a windows machine, but it MAY be linux. I'm asking him now.

 

[Fizzi]

Cool. I'm in the skype group most of the time. If you say Fizzi it should notify me.

Edit: oats friend's server was Linux so I'm still looking. Thanks for checking oats.

 

[p1ns]

What kind of download/upload speed is recommended to run Melee Netplay? I have DSL, and while I seem to have decent ping, after seeing Upke's post above, I'm feeling ... inadequate:

Not really good connection, but you would be able to play with people not very far from you. The download and upload speed it's not important, the ping yes.

 

[Fishaman P]

Not really good connection, but you would be able to play with people not very far from you. The download and upload speed it's not important, the ping yes.

My connection was exactly that when I tried Melee online, and it's still the same now except for 2x download bandwidth.

I was able to play with people in Florida (maybe it was even Fizzi?) with buffer at 8 IIRC, which is ~2 frames of lag if I'm thinking straight.

tl;dr your connection is good-great.

 

[Sangoku]

How do I relate buffer number and frames of delay?

 

[David Lavoie]

I looked around and couldn't find any place to find people to play with on netplay, if anyone could direct me somewhere.
or just add me on skype for some game :D
skype: david01752

 

[KnitePhox]

How do I relate buffer number and frames of delay?

this is a great question that i want answered as well


i played a few ppl in europe and it felt like there was 3-4frames(coming from smash64 experience) when the buffer was around 10-14

no idea how this works

 

[JMC4789]

Padbuffer relates to how Melee sends input and dolphin accepts it. Melee accepts input more than once per frame, and to accurately allow people to play, we have to accept serial input more than once per frame. At least, that's how I understand it. It's possible in other games 1 buffer would equal 1 frame, but it's just not the case in Melee.

Someone who works on the emulator could probably correct me a bit, but I do know that for the buffer to be higher like that, it has to be because the game wants input more than once per frame. Great question, and I hope that's a good enough answer for now, as I don't have the technical know-how to dig any deeper.

 

[rokimomi]

Shouldn't it be known then what the "correct" buffer for melee should be, rather than estimating like we've been accustomed to?

 

[Upke]

Well, there's no "correct" buffer. People who play on CRTs expect no frame lag, but everyone's internet is different which demands different amounts of pad buffer. You can't really set a standard for everyone to use and expect people in the same state to play the same as a US player with an EU player.

 

[JMC4789]

The correct padbuffer is the lowest possible padbuffer a session can use without incurring slowdown/choppiness from being unable to send and receive packets fast enough. Obviously, when playing offline the padbuffer is Zero by default.

 

[Fizzi]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3p-4S4uxfA4

Some gameplay footage... Our connection was extremely solid. I recorded this live on the same PC as I was playing on so it did make my game slightly more choppy. It is also recorded at 25 fps so it doesn't look as good as the play actually was.

 

[JMC4789]

Adding your footage to the main post, thanks

 

[p1ns]

About pad buffer, I have played vs some guy from NY (Roshiro) and I could set a very low buffer (10) compared to what I usually set (20) when playing with american players. Of course there was lag (about 120ms) but that buffer did not affect game performance.

 

[Darktooth77]

About pad buffer, I have played vs some guy from NY (Roshiro) and I could set a very low buffer (10) compared to what I usually set (20) when playing with american players. Of course there was lag (about 120ms) but that buffer did not affect game performance.

hi
I can confirm that there is no effect in game performance when playing with p1ns. However I'm almost sure that lowering the buffer too low will cause slowdown, but when there's a stable connection, it doesn't happen.

 

[p1ns]

hi
I can confirm that there is no effect in game performance when playing with p1ns. However I'm almost sure that lowering the buffer too low will cause slowdown, but when there's a stable connection, it doesn't happen.

Of course I suppose that lower than 10 would start to drop fps. Also add that there wasn't any desync, and we have been playing about 15 or 20 matches.