Doing the Impossible. Icees defeated

[Notra]

Well yesterday i went to a tourney in west bloomfield. I was donig amazing. 2 stocked a rob. 3 stocked a pretty good meta and beat one of the mid west's best marths w/ falco. But then i had to play lain.( i live in ann arbor, every tourney has lain, anther, samurai panda, judge, omni, dingdong all of them :/ but im near their level now) Now lain is cool, we went to highschool together. However i knew i was gonna lose. his icees **** falco hard. so i didnt even try. I almost beat his marth on norfair. but lost 1 stock 97%. ANYWAY. the point is we need to know how to play icees. this thread is strictly for new ideas and ways to fight IC. heres what i got.


Possibilities


- stay spaced w/ reflector

-IAP cancel space( for mind games)

- ppl say it doesnt work but from what ive done icees can be grab and chain grabbed. it separates them sometimes w/ dthrow the other icees will get caught(usually nana will get caught. so aim for popo)

- and somethign i use that could work is edge stalling w/ phatasm mind games. THis means ppl like to shield when they see it coming. let them do that for a second and UP B can lower their shield to were they must get hit. It works more than it sounds it would. - i need to check its priority vs blizzard-





P.S. this may sound dumb but if anyone can test or come up w/ an idea to cancel UP B. it could be used well for falco.

post

 

[Typ_Ex]

i thought chaingrabbing IC's could separate them cause of the laser part of it. than a level 9 computer de-synced them and nana daired me.

 

[Notra]

i thought chaingrabbing IC's could separate them cause of the laser part of it. than a level 9 computer de-synced them and nana daired me.

i thought that too. but when playing humans nan gets caught in the dthrow lazer sometimes too. meaning she can tag along for the ride

 

[Typ_Ex]

can? yes
how many? not.

 

[Emperor Time]

Laser
IAP
Ftilt
Jab

All I really use.

 

[gunterrsmash01]

I got 3 stocked by Hylians ICs yesterday in tourney and placed 4th. If the ICs know what they are doing and know how to desynch and camp with blizzard/ice blocks AND know how to chaingrab properly, the matchup is near impossible. To contribute, i can say that jab and full hop aerials are useful. Always ban FD and take them to stages with platforms.

 

[pure_awesome]

I've starting using Fullhop reflector alot against Icies to deal with their Blizzard walls. It works okay, which is pretty much the best you can hope for in the match.

 

[Runawayfire]

Gatling combo into shielding IC's seems to almost always disrupt them. Illusioning through them when they're at close range is probably the only other actually safe way of attacking into them.

Platform camping, capitalizing on seperation of ics, and incredibly patient hit and run tactics are the only thing that can win this matchup though. Battlefield is easily the best for this on neutrals, with smashville being second. If you can win the first round vs an IC player you'll seal the deal provided you can take them on your cp.

 

[BleachigoZX]

F-throw is good when they're near.

That's all I know. Ksizzle started using IC so hopefully I get some practice against them.

 

[Notra]

im test out some new stuff tmrw. ill tell u how it goes

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

( i live in ann arbor, every tourney has lain, anther, samurai panda, judge, omni, dingdong all of them :/ but im near their level now)

That's quite interesting.

If you're going to any major tournament tell me what you placed.

 

[Notra]

That's quite interesting.

If you're going to any major tournament tell me what you placed.

i placed 9th in a pretty big one on saturday. anther, lain, judge, omni, dingdong, samurai panda were there. i got bumped into losers from playing lain i was destroyed by his icees first match second i was lost 1 stock 97% vs his marth on norfair. then i play judge and lost one stock high percent both matches on smashville. he plays w/ dair camping. i did the back air stuff, but he nadoed so the spacing was hard. i nvr played someone who could do it well.

srry for going off topic

 

[IrisKong]

From playing with lain and just my general knowledge of the climbers...falco has a ruff time. The best bet is to take them to a place with a ton of platforms and be dumb with lazers and phantasm until you think you can kill them. Dont bother going for the chain grab unless you somehow killed nana super early, they with just grab you instead. Something I did start doing that you already mentioned is to camp with reflector and occasionally lazer, it does work...a bit at least.

This is probably falcos worst matchup, there isnt a whole lot we can do, although I will keep trying.

BTW it was cool meeting you Notra, im down for helping you test stuff if you need another falco player.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Counterpick brinstar against ICs, lava and organic mesh occasionally screws up chaingrabs.

 

[Notra]

Counterpick brinstar against ICs, lava and organic mesh occasionally screws up chaingrabs.

problem is thats a cp. nuertal stages r gonna be the first match. and if u cant win on that its gg. yoshi and bf r our best nuetrals. cp is a diff story vs icees not as cheap. but nuetrals is our prob

nad heres a new idea possibly juggling the icees w/ up throw? separated enough nanas AI has to kick in. (start w/ dthrow to have both stunned to not interupt upthrow juggle) i couldnt get it to work vs lvl9s but maybe there is a more sound way to do it.

 

[Lotopius]

I laser camp until the 70+ percents, then proceed to separate them.
I do this primarily with:

-AIP to rising uair on one followed by dair/bair on the other.
Phantasm sends them into the air where they can't grab you; and nana's trajectory usually differs slightly from popo's. It's not enough to make the IA kick in, but you barely have the time to hit them seperately. Idealy I want popo to eat the uair and nana daired to the ground, so that nana can stupidly jump (does it 90% of the time) to eat another dair or bair depending on her percentage and my positioning on the stage. You can then proceed to edgeguard or techchase nana with downsmash (or upsmash if you think her damage is high enough for the kill, but landing downsmash is easier), but beware of popo who should have regained the ground from that point on.
Nana's IA is DUMB, and I mean really dumb, so if you do it right, you shouldn't get hit by nana.
You need to read the opponent's DI correctly and cancel the phantasm if needed in order to get to the IC before they place themselves in a good position (thanks god falco's first jump is huge). I find that coming directly from under them will usually have them dair you, so I try to hit with the uair moving laterally into them.
It's hard to pull off, but you usually land an IAP a few times in a match; furthermore, if they airdodge the uair, at least you can land an aerial.

-Boost pivot grab to bthrow followed by dsmash.
Very risky, but it's the only other non situational setup to separate them I have found. You want to grab popo when doing so. The sliding motion will prevent nana from hitting you out of the grab. The bthrow will put popo far away enough that nana will kick into AI. She will either try to run past you, in which case you should dsmash, or jump above you , in which case you should bair/nair her. It seems she will run past if popo FF and jump if you charge a smash or if popo double jumps.
If popo fails to avoid the bthrow's lasers, ftilt instead of smashing, because popo will have a chance to get to the ground and punish you while you are beating the crap out of nana.
If you somehow grab nana instead of popo, dthrow and run away. Fthrow will make you step forward towardspopo=bad idea; uthrow and bthrow take too long and will get you punished. At least dthrow puts some lasers in front of you.

If all else fails, keep the lasercamp up. I find SHDL followed by a buffered laser (aka laserstorm) quite effective against ice-block happy ICs.

Just my 2 cents. I play a decent IC player, but he's nowhere near Lain, so I don't know if what I do can really be done against very good IC players.

 

[Kirby 89]

take them to a stage that moves

 

[BleachigoZX]

take them to a stage that moves

Most moving stages are terrible for Falco.

I think RC and Castle Seige is our best option, though. We can camp under/around platforms. Also we would need to definitly keep the lead there since he can just hold us until the stage kills us.

On seige we would have to run the clock....X_X

 

[Emperor Time]

Why not take them to Japes? Seems like a great choice. We can ***** away and avoid grabs a lot.

 

[BetaZealot]

I never play close range against IC's. I try to keep away and rack up laser dmg, then go in for a bair or something.

 

[Denzi]

Why not take them to Japes? Seems like a great choice. We can ***** away and avoid grabs a lot.

A friend of mine and a pretty good Falco tried taking Lain to Japes, and it didn't work out so well. It's actually not that good a choice because it's tough to kill them off the sides here, so they'll be living to higher %s because of the high ceiling. Also, if the IC's just stay in the center, you can't do much without getting close. Phantasm is a bit more telegraphed, so you'll eat Blizzards, and if you try to camp the platform above them you'll get torn apart by Uairs.

I'd stick with a different stage.

 

[hateoni__]

theres no strategy, u just play and beat him.

 

[BetaZealot]

A friend of mine and a pretty good Falco tried taking Lain to Japes, and it didn't work out so well. It's actually not that good a choice because it's tough to kill them off the sides here, so they'll be living to higher %s because of the high ceiling. Also, if the IC's just stay in the center, you can't do much without getting close. Phantasm is a bit more telegraphed, so you'll eat Blizzards, and if you try to camp the platform above them you'll get torn apart by Uairs.

I'd stick with a different stage.

I tried taking lain and ambrose to japes. I lost.

=/

 

[Denzi]

I tried taking lain and ambrose to japes. I lost.

=/

Yeah, it's just something you shouldn't do.

No advantages.

 

[Emperor Time]

**** it. I hate this MU. I guess I'll try RC.

 

[BetaZealot]

Yeah, it's just something you shouldn't do.

No advantages.

Me: "I'll just CG to spike them in the water"

Then: "I'll just CG to Usmash to taunt him because of the high ceiling"

Got Star K.O.'d

 

[Hawks go Caw]

PPPIIICCCCTTTTTOOOOOCCCCHHHAAAATTTT if it's allowed. 'cuz it's a cool stage.

Here's something relevant in form of a question to promote discussion:
What's the best way to get around ice block spam?

Jumping forces you to approach the way they want you to. Grounded lasers get punished. Reflector gets punished. What else is there? What do you do?

 

[DEHF]

How to beat ICs using less than 25 words

laser camp side B use your full jab combo as it seperates them and once they are seperated kill Nana as soon as possible

 

[Notra]

theres no strategy, u just play and beat him.

lol hateoni

 

[Notra]

Ay Stop Saying Cp'S. We Know We Can Win On Them. The Point Is To Beat Them On A Neutral So Our Cp Matters And We Can Win.

lets try to find stats for every stage (mainly nuetrals)
we r most likely playing on pk or smash cause of the stages that are cancelled so find strats for levels like those.

 

[Runawayfire]

Yeah, it's just something you shouldn't do.

No advantages.

Actually, if you're ready to be completely gay in this matchup, japes is great.

If you grab the center, you have prime camping position.... but the Ics will fight desperately for the center... so after being forced off...
You grab one of the side platforms (prefereably the one on the right), and you sit there.... forever.... If they attempt to cross over they will be at severe disadvantage.... and if they try to ice block just laser them as they start to jump. If you play them like this on japes they almost can't do anything to stop it.

My new ultimate strategy against IC's is to wear headphones and listen to music while I camp, that way I don't get bored sitting in one place and running away

 

[AvoiD]

Good stuff Minus.

I saw Ozz doing this when he was playing Bwett's Yoshi.

Listening to music, camping on Japes I mean.

lmao.

 

[PoweredVolt]

I just play Ice Climbers by jumping high/b-airing/phantasming a LOT. Lasers and reflector every now and then, but my strategy seems to work fairly well.

 

[Notra]

I just play Ice Climbers by jumping high/b-airing/phantasming a LOT. Lasers and reflector every now and then, but my strategy seems to work fairly well.

thats what i do too. but spacing becomes hard when they desync

 

[Arty]

Why are you guys saying not to CP Japes. Japes is clearly Falco's best Cp in that matchup. You can get a small lead by phantasm/laser camping, and then you have two platforms to just camp on. You can just basically stand on those platforms and the IC's options are limited and they have to come to you. It is also very easy to run the clock out on Japes. You can phantasm from platform to platform and ICs will have a hard time catching up.

 

[Notra]

Why are you guys saying not to CP Japes. Japes is clearly Falco's best Cp in that matchup. You can get a small lead by phantasm/laser camping, and then you have two platforms to just camp on. You can just basically stand on those platforms and the IC's options are limited and they have to come to you. It is also very easy to run the clock out on Japes. You can phantasm from platform to platform and ICs will have a hard time catching up.

lol anything that has a large enough or flat enough platforms for icees grab infinite is bad. best cps are lvls norfair or rainbow cruise. norfair still has lazer camping. and rainbow cruise = nana is lost

 

[Jon?]

Wouldn't the Jab Combo be a good move against ICs? It'll keep them both in the jabs which is free damage.

 

[Notra]

Wouldn't the Jab Combo be a good move against ICs? It'll keep them both in the jabs which is free damage.

one can stand behind and blizzard

 

[§witch]

The jab combo is amazing against ICs, it has saved my *** countless times.

 

[Notra]

im seeing ppl doing better and better vs icees at tounreys w/ falco. now i dont have a person i play regularly who plays them great. so anyone like to share recent findings?