Does this bother anyone else?

[Fatmanonice]

S: Snake, Meta Knight, King Dedede
A: Marth, Mr. Game & Watch, Lucario, ROB, Wario, Falco, Olimar
B: Donkey Kong, Wolf, Fox, Ice Climbers, Kirby, Pit
C: Peach, Ness, Diddy Kong, Toon Link, Pikachu, Luigi, Captain Falcon
D: Zelda, Zero Suit Samus, Samus, Bowser, Ike, Jigglypuff, Pokémon Trainer
E: Lucas, Sonic, Ganondorf, SheikZelda, Mario, Link
U: Sheik, Yoshi

This is the current Tournament rankings. Mario is currently the fourth lowest. He is ranked lower than some of the worst characters in Brawl INCLUDING Captain Falcon. As we all know, this is not a tier list but it no less disturbing because it's more than obvious that Mario is not this bad. He's still a middle of the road character but it seems like a lot of people are afraid to use him. As Mario mains, what do you think we should do about this? There's at least one obvious answer (use him more in tournaments) but I feel that there is more we should do. Any suggestions? If something isn't done soon, he'll end up being dubbed as "non-viable" when it comes to tournaments.

 

[EggZavier]

he got better from melee so ya more people shoud be mario

 

[A2ZOMG]

It's just a tourney wins chart. <<

Yeah Mario needs more representation.

And yeah, it's definitely not a tier list. Snake isn't the best, G&W should ideally be in the S-tier, several other characters are MUCH higher/lower than they should be.

 

[Fatmanonice]

It's just a tourney wins chart. <<

Yeah Mario needs more representation.

And yeah, it's definitely not a tier list. Snake isn't the best, G&W should ideally be in the S-tier, several other characters are MUCH higher/lower than they should be.

I know but don't tournament rankings play a role in how the tier list turns out? Also, this is the first time I've ever heard someone say Snake isn't the best character in the game. In your opinion, who would you say it is? *Hopes he doesn't say something obvious like Metaknight.* Regarding characters being ranked too high/low, I was just informed recently by Yuna that Zelda is considered the 5th best character in the game in the Back Room but hardly anyone plays as her. Do you think "tier whoring" is the cause of cases like this despite there not being an offical tier list yet?

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Win moar tournaments?

 

[Fatmanonice]

Win moar tournaments?

Obviously but the main problem is that hardly anyone plays as him. -__-' Unfortunately for me, online tournaments "don't count" here so I can't realisticly contribute until this policy changes (if ever it does).

 

[A2ZOMG]

I know but don't tournament rankings play a role in how the tier list turns out? Also, this is the first time I've ever heard someone say Snake isn't the best character in the game. In your opinion, who would you say it is? *Hopes he doesn't say something obvious like Metaknight.* Regarding characters being ranked too high/low, I was just informed recently by Yuna that Zelda is considered the 5th best character in the game in the Back Room but hardly anyone plays as her. Do you think "tier whoring" is the cause of cases like this despite there not being an offical tier list yet?

Well, MK is obviously better than Snake. MK has way fewer bad matchups, the only one really bad being Snake, and then just being slightly disadvantaged to G&W. Snake has many bad matchups (Campers, CGers, people who are good at ledgeguarding). This means Snake loses to DDD, Falco, Pikachu, ICs, and Wolf, the last of which sucks IMO, but still has the advantage on Snake just because Snake sucks against other campers and people who can ledgeguard him really well. MK doesn't get gimped much, and he has a safe air game and safe kill moves, and the best ledgeguarding in Brawl.

Honestly, I think G&W could possibly be better than those two though, and I think LeeHarris thinks he's the best character in the game. I've been told he's no lower than 4th place (the competition being MK, Snake, and DDD). G&W also counters DDD since he can't be CGed. He has huge aerials that do a lot of damage and can kill not to mention they are extremely safe to use, and other ridiculously strong and SAFE kill moves (this is why Marth is worse than G&W. He doesn't have safe kill moves). And he doesn't get gimped. It's also generally agreed G&W is one of those characters that is generally turning out to be THE bad matchup for most characters if I recall.

However as for Yuna saying Zelda is 5th best, Emblem Lord also says Marth is no lower than 5th, and the spaces above him have already been indicated as being occupied by MK, Snake, DDD, and G&W. Pshaw, Zelda isn't that good. She can't approach, and Din's Fire is much easier to get around than some people think.

And btw, if it means anything, BO (who mains both Mario and R.O.B.) confirmed that Mario has advantage over R.O.B., who is generally accepted as upper high tier. So yeah Mario definitely isn't that bad.

 

[Flameleon]

Personally, i don´t really care about that list, why.? because when you show to the people the trully potential of Mario, everyone is shocked and thats when they'll use Mario and so he will be more popular, win tourneys, etc...

Mario can beat almost the entire roster, even Metaknights and Snakes, and about Dedede, well, that match is also possible...and to finish, that list doesn't botter me.

 

[Veggi]

If it wern't for that King Dedede and his infinite grab Mario should be much higher. Actually I think he should be higher now, he's not bad at all. Actually I thought he was pretty good, plus with his FLUDD, cape and spike, no one can get away. NO ONE. It bothers me that Mario is put that low too. I'm gonna go change my main icon to Mario.

 

[Flameleon]

Being that low isn't that bad, why.? because we, as Marios, can get out of all the people's low expectation and beat any "high tier" char even being that low, but yeah, Mario has many things to battle and to beat anyone, hehe, but he will not do that alone, the player must be very experienced to accomplish that...so, Mario rulz in the underground.

 

[Fatmanonice]

If it wern't for that King Dedede and his infinite grab Mario should be much higher. Actually I think he should be higher now, he's not bad at all. Actually I thought he was pretty good, plus with his FLUDD, cape and spike, no one can get away. NO ONE. It bothers me that Mario is put that low too. I'm gonna go change my main icon to Mario.

I actually did the same too. My icon used to be Wario but there are plenty of people who represent him. He's still one of my six mains but I think I'm going to start using Ness and Mario more in competitive fights.

 

[Takeshi245]

Snake beats Metaknight because of his huge hitboxes, his projectile game, and his mortar-sliding approach. Snake out-prioritizes Metaknight in the air and on the ground. His tilts are as fast as they are strong, and Snake's tough to approach. His grenades, if used wisely, can become a vital part of playing Snake due to grenade stripping. There's that, and Snake can kill Metaknight easier and faster. There's that, and Snake outcamps everyone in the game. Anyways, Mario just needs to do better in tournaments. Besides, this isn't an official tier list. We need more time. Besides, Mario's better than this.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Snake beats Metaknight because of his huge hitboxes, his projectile game, and his mortar-sliding approach. Snake out-prioritizes Metaknight in the air and on the ground. His tilts are as fast as they are strong, and Snake's tough to approach. His grenades, if used wisely, can become a vital part of playing Snake due to grenade stripping. There's that, and Snake can kill Metaknight easier and faster. There's that, and Snake outcamps everyone in the game. Anyways, Mario just needs to do better in tournaments. Besides, this isn't an official tier list. We need more time. Besides, Mario's better than this.

Yeah, Snake is MK's ONLY bad matchup. That's why Snake is top tier haha.

And no, it's really, really easy to outcamp Snake. All of Snake's projectiles require a lot of setup, and if the opponent has a technique that beats Snake's Mortar Slide, then Snake can't move either. Characters like Falco, ICs, and Wolf can easily stop Snake's Mortar Slide with a projectile, King DDD has enough grab range or tilt range to challenge Snake's priority, Pikachu has an evil D-smash. Four of those characters can chaingrab him off of the stage, which not only does a ton of damage to Snake, but makes him easy to ledgeguard (Wolf on the other hand doesn't CG, but rather still keeps Snake really low with his D-throw).

Snake wins against MK, but MK wins the matchups that Snake loses at and more. MK > Snake.

 

[Flameleon]

MK has a hard time vs DK, just search a little and you will see, DK is a very good option to beat all those MK's, also, there are some chars than have some kind of advantage over MK, for example. Yoshi, he can grab/release MK very well and some other good things. The point here is than we must not get our minds close to the fact than MK>anyone, because if you think than you can't beat your enemy even before the fight starts, you are losing since there...

 

[Takeshi245]

Yeah, Snake is MK's ONLY bad matchup. That's why Snake is top tier haha.

And no, it's really, really easy to outcamp Snake. All of Snake's projectiles require a lot of setup, and if the opponent has a technique that beats Snake's Mortar Slide, then Snake can't move either. Characters like Falco, ICs, and Wolf can easily stop Snake's Mortar Slide with a projectile, King DDD has enough grab range or tilt range to challenge Snake's priority, Pikachu has an evil D-smash. Four of those characters can chaingrab him off of the stage, which not only does a ton of damage to Snake, but makes him easy to ledgeguard (Wolf on the other hand doesn't CG, but rather still keeps Snake really low with his D-throw).

Snake wins against MK, but MK wins the matchups that Snake loses at and more. MK > Snake.

Well, I guess that means Falcos, Metaknights, ICs, and Wolfs should be winning more tournaments, right? Oh wait. They aren't. Snake's been dominating for the most part. Could it be because his projectiles help him a lot with set-ups and him being able to get around projectile spam somehow? Could it be because of his ridiculous hitboxes and the fact that his aerial priority's also really good? I think so. Besides, if all these characters are good against Snake, why aren't they winning more tournaments than Snake? And good luck getting a grab off of a guy that has ridiculous hitboxes and has set-ups that make him difficult to grab if used properly and can crawl under certain projectile spam like Falco's lasers. There's that, and Snake can Knee Lock his opponents. Snake>MK. And Flameleon, skill will always prevail over tiers but the undeniable fact is that there are characters that are just better than other characters like a bad character like Sonic and a good character like Marth. It's like that in every fighting game.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Snake I think has much better representation with professional players. Hence why he's winning more. Likewise someone like G&W, the only reason he's not placing any higher is because his professional representation is poorer. You don't actually hear of anyone outstandingly famous maining G&W. You hear guys like PC Chris and Cort maining Snake. Yeah.

However the professionals I've talked to all agree MK is superior to Snake overall. And the reason being that Snake has several rather poor matchups, while MK has only one rather poor matchup. =/

The Back Room for your information has stated clearly that Snake SUFFERS against projectile spam, and that his recovery can easily be intercepted. Also all of his aerials are extremely laggy, which forces him to air dodge to the ground when recovering. Snake also has only ONE safe and reliable kill move (Undiminished U-tilt). That sorta sucks if you think about it. A character like MK has many more safe kill moves keep in mind.

By the way, Boss beat PC Chris's Snake. Like seriously, Snake is definitely not the best character in the game if that's possible since Mario is just mid tier really. <<

 

[Debonu]

if you go all the way down the post it says
Most up-to-date rankings, no details: (last updated July 11, 2008)
S: Snake, Meta Knight, King Dedede
A: Mr. Game & Watch, Marth, Wario
B: ROB, Falco, Lucario, Olimar
C: Donkey Kong, Wolf, Pit, Fox, Kirby, Ice Climbers
D: Ness, Zero Suit Samus, Diddy Kong, Peach, Zelda, Toon Link, Pikachu
E: Samus, Bowser, Luigi, Ike, Sonic, Mario, Jigglypuff, Lucas, SheikZelda, Link, Pokémon Trainer, Captain Falcon
U: Ganondorf, Sheik, Yoshi

 

[Takeshi245]

Snake I think has much better representation with professional players. Hence why he's winning more. Likewise someone like G&W, the only reason he's not placing any higher is because his professional representation is poorer. You don't actually hear of anyone outstandingly famous maining G&W. You hear guys like PC Chris and Cort maining Snake. Yeah.

However the professionals I've talked to all agree MK is superior to Snake overall. And the reason being that Snake has several rather poor matchups, while MK has only one rather poor matchup. =/

The Back Room for your information has stated clearly that Snake SUFFERS against projectile spam, and that his recovery can easily be intercepted. Also all of his aerials are extremely laggy, which forces him to air dodge to the ground when recovering. Snake also has only ONE safe and reliable kill move (Undiminished U-tilt). That sorta sucks if you think about it. A character like MK has many more safe kill moves keep in mind.

By the way, Boss beat PC Chris's Snake. Like seriously, Snake is definitely not the best character in the game if that's possible since Mario is just mid tier really. <<

So F-tilt and U-tilt aren't reliable kill moves even though they're fast and actually kill at good KO percentages?! And just because Boss beat PC Chris's Snake doesn't mean Mario is better than Snake. That just means Boss was better with Mario than PC Chris's Snake. Your case suffers from the deductive fallacy on that end. There's that, and you got me thinking that Snake may not be as good as I thought. I accept that Metaknight's the best character in the game. Are you happy now?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Snake is not going to kill very often with his F-tilt unless he just died, because he needs both his F-tilt and Jab in order to deal most of his damage. All of Snakes other attacks aside from the U-tilt will not be used for KOing very often. If there is one move you know Snake wants to kill you with, you know it's going to be the U-tilt basically. Of course, Snake will occasionally kill with his variety of explosives and laggy aerials, and he can ledgeguard to an extent, but these methods are much more situational and easily avoided. That is why Snake has only ONE reliable kill move. Everything else he could consider for KOing is extremely situational.

And I'm personally not really happy that MK is most likely the best character in the game, but eh, I can understand why the developers would want it that way. I was just hoping that they would pick someone that represents Nintendo better as the best character in the game, like G&W or Mario. =/

Then again, there is a small chance G&W could suddenly surprise me.

 

[Fatmanonice]

So F-tilt and U-tilt aren't reliable kill moves even though they're fast and actually kill at good KO percentages?! And just because Boss beat PC Chris's Snake doesn't mean Mario is better than Snake. That just means Boss was better with Mario than PC Chris's Snake. Your case suffers from the deductive fallacy on that end. There's that, and you got me thinking that Snake may not be as good as I thought. I accept that Metaknight's the best character in the game. Are you happy now?

He wasn't saying that Mario was better than Snake, he was pointing out that Snake isn't as great as most people make him out to be. Also, from my experience, I agree that the Mario vs Snake match up is about even.

 

[ADHD]

S: Snake, Meta Knight, King Dedede
A: Marth, Mr. Game & Watch, Lucario, ROB, Wario, Falco, Olimar
B: Donkey Kong, Wolf, Fox, Ice Climbers, Kirby, Pit
C: Peach, Ness, Diddy Kong, Toon Link, Pikachu, Luigi, Captain Falcon
D: Zelda, Zero Suit Samus, Samus, Bowser, Ike, Jigglypuff, Pokémon Trainer
E: Lucas, Sonic, Ganondorf, SheikZelda, Mario, Link
U: Sheik, Yoshi

This is the current Tournament rankings. Mario is currently the fourth lowest. He is ranked lower than some of the worst characters in Brawl INCLUDING Captain Falcon. As we all know, this is not a tier list but it no less disturbing because it's more than obvious that Mario is not this bad. He's still a middle of the road character but it seems like a lot of people are afraid to use him. As Mario mains, what do you think we should do about this? There's at least one obvious answer (use him more in tournaments) but I feel that there is more we should do. Any suggestions? If something isn't done soon, he'll end up being dubbed as "non-viable" when it comes to tournaments.

Wow, thats definitely ****ed up. First off, jigllypuff... should not be higher than any of the E or U people. Since when is sheik that awful, she is middle, if not low....

 

[Fatmanonice]

if you go all the way down the post it says
Most up-to-date rankings, no details: (last updated July 11, 2008)
S: Snake, Meta Knight, King Dedede
A: Mr. Game & Watch, Marth, Wario
B: ROB, Falco, Lucario, Olimar
C: Donkey Kong, Wolf, Pit, Fox, Kirby, Ice Climbers
D: Ness, Zero Suit Samus, Diddy Kong, Peach, Zelda, Toon Link, Pikachu
E: Samus, Bowser, Luigi, Ike, Sonic, Mario, Jigglypuff, Lucas, SheikZelda, Link, Pokémon Trainer, Captain Falcon
U: Ganondorf, Sheik, Yoshi

Thanks for pointing this out but it's still bogus that Samus, Peach, Bowser, Sonic, and Ike are doing better then him. Seriously, Ike? Ike? You know, the only character who's recovery you can mess up by air dodging in front of him and who's moves nearly all have a lot of lag following them? Also, I'm really surprized that Pikachu is ranked so low when it's widely agreed that he's basically a Snake counter.

 

[Takeshi245]

Snake's an above average character. Mario is just an average character. Therefore, Snake wins. Wins in priority, the fact that he outcamps Mario, Mario's fireballs suck against him, his aerials beat yours, and Snake can KO easier than Mario can. And Ike doing better than Mario in tournaments doesn't mean that Ike's better than Mario. It's obvious Mario's better. Ike just gets more representation. That's all. Also, I'm starting to doubt that Metaknight's the best character. Falco loses to Snake in close quarters combat, Wolf isn't that good, ICs don't do well against Snake in close combat, and Snake can give Dedede a hard time because of his set-ups.

 

[Monk/Honkey/Banana]

the list is on tournament placing and so far the only Mario main that does well consistently in larger sized tournaments is Boss...put that on top of the fact that Mario is one of the most under used characters in this game and there you go...In the few tournaments I have gone to I have been the only Mario player every time

this list doesn't bother me at all really cause I'm not just looking at how low Mario is....I'm saying "he's that low on the list because only Boss has placed top 5 in large tournaments"

and as for Ike being higher on the list...yes...there are more Ike players than Mario players

 

[Mario_ 101]

Don't worry people. I'm sure we'll get some more Mario mainers in the next several months, even if they aren't that great.

 

[Mario is the greatest brawler]

why is mario that low? i own everybody wit mario only my brother and cousin gimme trouble with metaknight and wolf

 

[Monk/Honkey/Banana]

why is mario that low? i own everybody wit mario only my brother and cousin gimme trouble with metaknight and wolf

the list is on tournament placing and so far the only Mario main that does well consistently in larger sized tournaments is Boss...put that on top of the fact that Mario is one of the most under used characters in this game and there you go...In the few tournaments I have gone to I have been the only Mario player every time

this list doesn't bother me at all really cause I'm not just looking at how low Mario is....I'm saying "he's that low on the list because only Boss has placed top 5 in large tournaments"

and as for Ike being higher on the list...yes...there are more Ike players than Mario players

when I have to quote myself from two post up to answer a question...something is wrong

 

[Nintendude92z]

I personally just think people aren't using him because of how he was in melee and N64.

I have two tourney wins, played at my school (16 man). One as Mario.

What do I do? Is it offical just because it was played in a local area, or does it need to be sponsored? I doubt one or two tourney wins would mean much, but just for future reference.

 

[Fatmanonice]

I personally just think people aren't using him because of how he was in melee and N64.

I have two tourney wins, played at my school (16 man). One as Mario.

What do I do? Is it offical just because it was played in a local area, or does it need to be sponsored? I doubt one or two tourney wins would mean much, but just for future reference.

I think it counts as long as it has at least 16 people and at least 3 people can vouch that the tournament actually happened and its results are ture.

 

[boss8]

yea mario could use a boost it's nice to see the people reppin him in turney......im stayin true to mr nintendo....

 

[ThatGuy]

Did Boss beat PC's snake in tournament, or was it a friendly? Is there a video?

 

[boss8]

Did Boss beat PC's snake in tournament, or was it a friendly? Is there a video?

na dude no vid....and yea it wuz close....but no i didnt pc is too good...i got hit with an utilt....i landed on a platform...really close match though i wish it wuz recorded.....

 

[JumpMan_Punk]

I can definitely understand of this ranking. In NYC is know for playing alot different characters barely no Marios I'm like 1 out of three mains in the NYC scene. Then again I can see y that happens because a lot of characters give Mario mad trouble.

 

[A2ZOMG]

na dude no vid....and yea it wuz close....but no i didnt pc is too good...i got hit with an utilt....i landed on a platform...really close match though i wish it wuz recorded.....

What? I think I misunderstood you. D=

 

[Fatmanonice]

I can definitely understand of this ranking. In NYC is know for playing alot different characters barely no Marios I'm like 1 out of three mains in the NYC scene. Then again I can see y that happens because a lot of characters give Mario mad trouble.

Besides Marth, King Dedede, and Metaknight, who else completely ***** Mario?

 

[boss8]

Besides Marth, King Dedede, and Metaknight, who else completely ***** Mario?

the only one on that list that gives me trouble is deedeedee...marth is semi...and metaknight is easy to ****...

 

[Fatmanonice]

the only one on that list that gives me trouble is deedeedee...marth is semi...and metaknight is easy to ****...

Guh? An explanation would be nice. You are the first person I've ever seen make this statement.

 

[boss8]

i mean he is semi easy look at my vids and copy me...but then again not all metaknights have the same playstyle as korn...but everyother metaknight i've played (besides forute) i've 2 or 3 stocked

 

[Fatmanonice]

i mean he is semi easy look at my vids and copy me...but then again not all metaknights have the same playstyle as korn...but everyother metaknight i've played (besides forute) i've 2 or 3 stocked

What's the URL to your page?

 

[ThatGuy]

na dude no vid....and yea it wuz close....but no i didnt pc is too good...i got hit with an utilt....i landed on a platform...really close match though i wish it wuz recorded.....

Alright then.

Guys, please stop spreading rumors, you only diminish your credibility. Just play the game better.