Does the lack of hitstun in SSBB make jabs more obsolete?

[supersmash43]

I had some of my fellow Smashers in real life tell me that the lack of hitstun in Brawl has rendered jab attacks nearly useless. I don't think jab attacks are nearly useless, but many jab attacks (mainly the very fast yet weak ones like Zero Suit's jab) now seem far less useful in Brawl than in Melee due to the obxinous lack of hitstun. Here's a prime example of how the lack of hitstun has greatly reduced the effectiveness of jab attacks! Prepare for some epic lulz!

Samus' Jab: A Story of No Hitstun

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hmNU0b9L_8

Do you guys agree with the above statements to a certain extent?

 

[FIREL]

Jab is nowhere near useless for Luigi. Luigi's jab comes out quick (frame 2) and he has many options.
Such as Jab > Up-B.

Luigi jab hits them into the air (a tiny bit) so it gives him enough time to do stuff.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

LOL Samus Jab.

Samus is a bad character.

Now Snake has a ******** jab.

 

[FIREL]

LOL Samus Jab.

Samus is a bad character.

Now Snake has a ******** jab.

Samus Jab is kinda ********....

 

[Blissard]

But with a lot of characters, you can jab-grab.

And Peach and other characters have frame 2 jabs. Delicious for interrupting "combos".

 

[Nicholas1024]

Not every character has a good jab, but some of them are pretty nice. IIRC, jab is a huge part of Ike's game for example.

 

[Strong Badam]

There actually isn't less hitstun in Brawl.
/thread

 

[supersmash43]

But with a lot of characters, you can jab-grab.

And Peach and other characters have frame 2 jabs. Delicious for interrupting "combos".

Yeah it is good for getting the opponent out of your way.

Not every character has a good jab, but some of them are pretty nice. IIRC, jab is a huge part of Ike's game for example.

Well that's right because his jab is powerful and from jab canceling repeatedly you can rack up some decent damage.

There actually isn't less hitstun in Brawl.
/thread

Ok that's a pretty bold claim to make. Can you provide some solid proof and evidence that there is actually no less hitstun in Brawl than its predecessors? It is common knowledge that Brawl has less hitstun, so I am actually very interested in how you can prove this fact to be incorrect. Or could the lack of hitstun be an illusion caused by some other feature? Ultimately, please explain!

 

[John12346]

Brawl actually does have the same amount of hitstun as Melee. The guys who crack Brawl's data found the values to be more or less the same.

The issue is that Brawl's coding allows you to cancel hitstun after a specific number of frames, while you have to wait for hitstun to end before performing an action in Melee.

Which is hard gay. The Brawl part, I mean.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Not more or less. Exactly the same.

Samus just has a really bad jab cancel.

 

[supersmash43]

Brawl actually does have the same amount of hitstun as Melee. The guys who crack Brawl's data found the values to be more or less the same.

The issue is that Brawl's coding allows you to cancel hitstun after a specific number of frames, while you have to wait for hitstun to end before performing an action in Melee.

Which is hard gay. The Brawl part, I mean.

How do you cancel the hitstun after a certain number of frames just to be curious? This discussion seems to be ultimately VERY interesting!

Not more or less. Exactly the same.

Samus just has a really bad jab cancel.

I suppose if the same experiment was performed on the Melee version of Samus the results would be the same.

 

[MK26]

tbh its kind of obnoxious to say that the hitstun values are the same
because, while true, it's made obsolete by the fact that, in brawl, you can cancel the state of hitstun after a certain point with an airdodge or an aerial
so effective hitstun isnt really the same, but theoretical hitstun (ie the amount of hitstun you undergo if you dont attempt to cancel it) is the same between games

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Hitstun in the case here is identical.

 

[supersmash43]

tbh its kind of obnoxious to say that the hitstun values are the same
because, while true, it's made obsolete by the fact that, in brawl, you can cancel the state of hitstun after a certain point with an airdodge or an aerial
so effective hitstun isnt really the same, but theoretical hitstun (ie the amount of hitstun you undergo if you dont attempt to cancel it) is the same between games

If you ask me, the ability to cancel hitstun is good because it allows you to better recover from off stage when you're hit by a powerful move.

Hitstun in the case here is identical.

But there are ways to negate the hitstun in Brawl supposedly so even if the base hitstun is identical with Melee's, the actual hitstun is less in practice.

 

[Signia]

Don't forget you can crouch cancel and punish jabs in Melee. That alone makes them unsafe. Not sure how good they are in brawl.

Brawl's input buffer might make following up right after a single jab a bit easier, idk exactly how it works though so I could be wrong about that one. Also a surprise jab might make the player getting jabbed do something he/she doesn't want to because of the buffer. But! that could also work in their favor if they buffered an attack to stop the jab followup. Hmmm

Really, it's not good if jabs are too good. When the jab combination is a string of attacks, mixing up between finishing the string and stopping the string early is too good for how fast the jab is if the jabs are too safe or have too much hitstun. Your fastest move shouldn't give you a free mixup on block.

 

[Blissard]

Jabs are different depending on the character, but they're usually for spacing, comboing, or interrupting combos. Like...Peach will slap you everychance she gets if your fastest attack isn't faster than frame 2. And iirc, ZSS has a frame 1 jab. Then there is Ganon's jab; it's poor hitstun doesn't even matter because of it's fast startup (well...it's fast for Ganon) and knockback.

 

[FIREL]

Don't forget about JAB locking...

 

[Blissard]

I don't think I've ever seen anyone miss a tech and get jab locked. At least not competitively.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Don't forget about JAB locking...

It's just a forced get up.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Some characters CANNOT tech if you push them off a platform while they are shielding with their back to the ledge. Guaranteed jablock for some characters.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

the jabs in brawl for me are a love/hate situation, i love grabbin' and jabbin' but since i play 64, i miss the glorious fox jab combo to U-smash.

 

[Strong Badam]

I suppose if the same experiment was performed on the Melee version of Samus the results would be the same.

Not necessarily. The two games have the same amount of hitstun if the two moves have the same knockback & damage values and the opponent has the same weight and falling speeds. I don't know if Samus' physics & jab properties are the same.

 

[Riot]

ganon's jab doesnt have any problem with hitstun................

espically considering it can launch people

 

[Ghostbone]

The lack of hitstun in brawl only applies to moves which have enough knockback to put you into tumble.

I'm pretty sure no natural combos (e.g. multi-hit jabs, MK's f-tilt) put you into tumble between hits.....

So most jabs in brawl are fine.

IMO they're the best they've been in any of the smash games.

 

[supersmash43]

The lack of hitstun in brawl only applies to moves which have enough knockback to put you into tumble.

I'm pretty sure no natural combos (e.g. multi-hit jabs, MK's f-tilt) put you into tumble between hits.....

So most jabs in brawl are fine.

IMO they're the best they've been in any of the smash games.

To be honest, I think it was a good thing that hitstun for tumbling has been reduced because it helps your character recover from off screen.

 

[Strong Badam]

as if the dumbed-down ledge mechanics and significantly lower falling speed didn't help enough?

 

[Ghostbone]

To be honest, I think it was a good thing that hitstun for tumbling has been reduced because it helps your character recover from off screen.

Yea well the negatives of less hitstun far outweigh the benefits....

 

[supersmash43]

as if the dumbed-down ledge mechanics and significantly lower falling speed didn't help enough?

Personally, I like those features you just mentioned! They are extremely helpful! Besides the only character who's falling speed is comparable to Melee Fox's in Brawl is probably King DDD

Yea well the negatives of less hitstun far outweigh the benefits....

Yeah but the less hitstun only applies to enemies which are sent flying and going into tumble right (thereby not influencing the effectiveness of jabs as I once thought). So how those that kind of less hitstun outweigh the benefits?

 

[Strong Badam]

King DDD's falling speed isn't even in the same league as Melee Fox's.

 

[supersmash43]

King DDD's falling speed isn't even in the same league as Melee Fox's.

Yeah I suppose that was an exaggeration on my belief even though Dedede is by far the fastest faller in Brawl (but by Melee standards Dedede's falling speed would probably only be around Ganondorf's to Roy/Ganondorf's I believe). He still wouldn't be a slow faller by Melee standards but still noticeably slower than Fox in that respect.

 

[gm jack]

IIRC, DDD doesn't actually fall that fast. His horizontal air speed is just so bad it seems really fast falling.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

D3's fastfall speed is fast. His regular fall speed though is just a bit above average.

 

[FIREL]

Actually, he does have the fastest regular falling speed.

 

[supersmash43]

Actually, he does have the fastest regular falling speed.

Well according to SmashWiki that's the case and I guess they have the most reliable in depth information on that game (for any site on the Internet).

 

[EpixAura]

Brawl actually does have the same amount of hitstun as Melee. The guys who crack Brawl's data found the values to be more or less the same.

The issue is that Brawl's coding allows you to cancel hitstun after a specific number of frames, while you have to wait for hitstun to end before performing an action in Melee.

Which is hard gay. The Brawl part, I mean.

You just KNOW someone is going to find a way to cancel the lag in Melee after hearing this. Just saying.

But yeah, I feel jabs in Brawl are overall more useful, but are waaaay different.
I like jab>grab with Falco to start a CG, plus it's just so FAST. It's definitely better for Falco IMO. For most characters, the jab isn't quite Melee status, but for the characters it does benefit, it REALLY benefits.