Does Megaman really needs a secondary?

[Kel]

MK wins the same way sheik and Greninja wins- his frame data beats ours. MM is a zoning character that likes people to stay at max lemon length. Sheik, Greninja, and MK all break that zone easily and often. From that point MM is limited to only one "get off me" move- his buster. Buster doesn't cover very much space and is very laggy, so the characters with fast moves are able to win every exchange once they break your zone.

Furthermore, these characters have the ability to break through lemon zoning so easily that it's a mixup in itself just to keep them at a distance without backing yourself against a ledge. MK can dash attack lemons and clank with them and then dash attack again to break through. He can also dash attack one to clank and then forward roll to get behind us (where we are completely helpless). Alternatively, he can also jump and land with a dair or nair if he calls us using lemons (since lemons are so laggy). Graninja can do the same with Nair and break through our lemon zoning. Alternatively, if he calls us jumping to use a lemon he can space a forward air and put us in a bad spot. Sheik I believe most people have experience with. Her needles are way better than our projectiles and he fair busts through all of our zoning easily. She can also just straight up jump over top of us and turn around grab as a sort of cross up.

When you take all of these options that these characters have and pit them versus MM's limited option (hitting with the megabuster) you can see how easily frustrating these MUs can become. Yes, you will run into people who don't know how to fight megaman (scat Vs Wizz robe at Smash n splash) but eventually people will learn the MM match up and we will lose our novelty/ surprise factor. People usually think that lemons are broken until I explain how committed we have to be in order to use them. After they learn how vulnerable MM is when using lemons they always improve immediately in the match up. As time goes on it will get tougher and tougher for us to place well in tournaments. I went from winning my 80 man local tournaments to getting 9th/ even as bad as 24th because people learned the MU and when I run into these faster characters it's usually the same as an anti-bye.

By all means, continue using megaman. I love the character. But we need to recognize that we are accepting a huge disadvantage in competitive play and that, unless we get the perfect bracket, we are going to have huge road blocks that prevent us from taking tournaments down.

 

[CanadianMegaMan]

Yeah youre telling me dsmash kills and thats true but I asking for realistic ways to kill (not trying to be rude) like safe kills, bair is super safe, diagonal mb to shoryuken sourspots at high percentages and of all that the only one I can think is safw is bthrow, thats why I mostly keep it fresh

Dont underestimate the power of D-smash to net early kills on roll punish. it is Mega Mans strongest move kill move if I'm not mistaken, it just has huge endlag and only has the massive knockback on the first hit. Also, remember you don't always have to secure the kill offensively. Oos uptilt is an amazing kill confirm.

Up tilt kills more than uncharged Dsmash btw.

Dsmash is pretty crappy really. Actually, all of Mega's smashes are bad or underpowered. Up smash is the good one, but it has low knockback for the kind of move it is, dunno why.
Fsmash and dsmash aren't good. Fsmash is sometimes useful but Dsmash you can ignore it. It's our best punish on rest and shieldbreaks though.

I do agree that as time goes on Mega feels weaker / more gimmicky. There's patches though so only time will tell if he gets strong enough to win tournaments. Rush cancel won't be back, although it would really help Mega lol.
I hope we see some buffs to his smash attacks, they really feel bad besides up smash.

I almost never use uncharged Dsmash, it comes out too early to punish a roll properly. Charging just slightly makes it stronger than uptilt, killing ~16% earlier.

Also, Fsmash is one of the best landing catchers in the game. Time your shot to hit them at the time when air dodging will give them landing lag. It doesn't see much use outside that purpose, but it kills landing opponents pretty darn good. Upsmash is the good one, but you're selling the others short. Upsmash also isnt really meant to be a kill move for megaman until higher percents like 140+, its good for starting aerial juggles and anti air, though, as well as racking up damage at low percent because most characters can be upsmashed twice from zero and its a true combo.

Like i said, Nair actually has a good amout of knockback. It isn't strong enough to be called a kill move, but it sets up some interesting situations :
• If your opponent misses the tech, you can get a Jab lock
• You can go for Ftilt -> Ftilt -> Nair in order to setup edge guards.

Then there is FAir, which kills at higher %s only, but if you manage to hit with its weak hitbox, you can force your opponent into a jab lock.
That is why dealing damage is that important : it turns every move Mega Man has into potential kill moves.
Note that I didn't say anything about FSmash, UAir and DAir here : it's not that underestimate their power, but since the Cape is so strong, they just became so unsafe it defies logic.

Nair can be used as a kill move at melee range, it even gets kills earlier than Fair when used to chase off-stage. For example, if you throw someone off stage, then run off and Nair them just as they double jump, they are going to have a very tough time recovering from it. This strategy can be used against little mac for hilarious results. (usually around 115-120%)

 

[xIvan321]

Nair kill is most rewarding with rage, but due to how much its used on average by Mega Man players, its not considered a kill move despite how it can potentially kill as early as back air or earlier if its not used too often. I'm not the kind who uses lemons too much so I know this pretty well. Sweet spot nair can save your butt sometimes since the hitbox is your whole body pretty much and I've found that it serves me well close up. It has saved me before.

 

[Greward]

Up tilt kills more than uncharged Dsmash btw.

Dsmash is pretty crappy really. Actually, all of Mega's smashes are bad or underpowered. Up smash is the good one, but it has low knockback for the kind of move it is, dunno why.
Fsmash and dsmash aren't good. Fsmash is sometimes useful but Dsmash you can ignore it. It's our best punish on rest and shieldbreaks though.

I do agree that as time goes on Mega feels weaker / more gimmicky. There's patches though so only time will tell if he gets strong enough to win tournaments. Rush cancel won't be back, although it would really help Mega lol.
I hope we see some buffs to his smash attacks, they really feel bad besides up smash.

 

[Appledees]

I'm too stubborn to really switch to my Pikachu for Mega's bad matchups cause I feel like its more satisfying and fun to fight his bad matchups. Its also really great when you win them too so I guess I'm weird in this regard. Mario can die though lol

Honestly at this point I've accepted that Megaman at best is a solid high mid tier character with alot of good aspects but his flaws aren't enough to win tournaments consistently which is understandable. I still think he's good enough to place consistently well (just lack of players and commitment to the character) and honestly his matchups can get bad but they never reach "this is impossible" to me compared to some characters in this game.

I guess I'm the odd one here being optimistic here. I'm not sure Megaman will get much weaker or stronger as times goes by. Personally I think Megaman has more potential than we think but we're not at complete optional level yet. I don't know really but hey I think it wouldn't hurt being hopeful a bit.

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

I'm too stubborn to really switch to my Pikachu for Mega's bad matchups cause I feel like its more satisfying and fun to fight his bad matchups. Its also really great when you win them too so I guess I'm weird in this regard. Mario can die though lol

Honestly at this point I've accepted that Megaman at best is a solid high mid tier character with alot of good aspects but his flaws aren't enough to win tournaments consistently which is understandable. I still think he's good enough to place consistently well (just lack of players and commitment to the character) and honestly his matchups can get bad but they never reach "this is impossible" to me compared to some characters in this game.

I guess I'm the odd one here being optimistic here. I'm not sure Megaman will get much weaker or stronger as times goes by. Personally I think Megaman has more potential than we think but we're not at complete optional level yet. I don't know really but hey I think it wouldn't hurt being hopeful a bit.

I think with the correct commitment and time investment we can reach top tier since megaman's attacks are all useful ( but dsmash)

 

[Sorichuudo]

I think with the correct commitment and time investment we can reach top tier since megaman's attacks are all useful ( but dsmash)

I'm not sure that's how tiers work.
I mean, Sheik and Rosalina are top tiers cause they have a lot of good MUs with practically not a single bad one, isn't that right?

If we all agree that Megaman struggles with almost all of the top/high tier characters, he is not top tier. This isn't like pokemon, where tiers are based on usage(tho even in Pokemon the high tier ones are pretty much "the strongest/easier to use") so the only way he can become a top is if he gets a few buffs so that he fares better against the top tiers.

 

[Locke 06]

I'm not sure that's how tiers work.
I mean, Sheik and Rosalina are top tiers cause they have a lot of good MUs with practically not a single bad one, isn't that right?

If we all agree that Megaman struggles with almost all of the top/high tier characters, he is not top tier. This isn't like pokemon, where tiers are based on usage(tho even in Pokemon the high tier ones are pretty much "the strongest/easier to use") so the only way he can become a top is if he gets a few buffs so that he fares better against the top tiers.

Or his meta progresses and people learn to use different tools or play the MU better.

Dabooze is in the MM might beat Rosa camp BTW.

Working on something big though. Gonna be interesting if it puts Mega over the top, but it's something nobody does atm.

Yay secrets.

Edit: I'm optimistic about Mega's future, but he takes much more work than other characters due to his intrinsically low reward. Whether it's worth it... Who knows. But it's not easy playing low reward defense with high committal moves.

 

[SimplyChrono]

Or his meta progresses and people learn to use different tools or play the MU better.

Dabooze is in the MM might beat Rosa camp BTW.

Working on something big though. Gonna be interesting if it puts Mega over the top, but it's something nobody does atm.

Yay secrets.

I look forward to know all your secrets/hidden tech with megaman

 

[xIvan321]

If there are any buffs, IMO the buffs should address aerial attacks like a faster fair to string better and less landing lag, a faster raw metal blade, frame 1-2 up tilt, and a beefed up leaf shield so there's either no activation and cool down, or at least a damage buff for when its worn and when its tossed to something reasonable. Down Smash should have NO sour spots. There's no reason it should.

Those are things I wish. There's no reason up tilt should be F7 being so punishable and all mid cool down. The reward of the move should be from proper countering physical moves on the ground thanks to its invincibility and correct timing the moment you tap the A button. Like Marth's counter except not exactly.

Those complaints for me are just pretty small, and I do believe despite my own compaints, I still think Mega Man's higher tier spot will be coming from mostly just glitchniques people haven't seen too often properly taken advantage of and possibly from the custom move Tornado Hold as well. I truly believe he can always win against Rosalina (especially after the Mewtwo patch) and of course Falcon just because Mega Man does have the damage advantage IMO. I do get that the frame data of C. Falcon's is better, I get that, but there are lots of situations that make the MU go either way. That's just the way I feel after playing enough Falcons that are decent.

Assuming something like DITCIT will stay, it definitely makes Mega Man stand more ground against Sheik and Olimar. Not that Sheik is really your biggest problem, but she'll always be the best character in the game nonetheless.

 

[SimplyChrono]

If there are any buffs, IMO the buffs should address aerial attacks like a faster fair to string better and less landing lag, a faster raw metal blade, frame 1-2 up tilt, and a beefed up leaf shield so there's either no activation and cool down, or at least a damage buff for when its worn and when its tossed to something reasonable. Down Smash should have NO sour spots. There's no reason it should.

Those are things I wish. There's no reason up tilt should be F7 being so punishable and all mid cool down. The reward of the move should be from proper countering physical moves on the ground thanks to its invincibility and correct timing the moment you tap the A button. Like Marth's counter except not exactly.

Those complaints for me are just pretty small, and I do believe despite my own compaints, I still think Mega Man's higher tier spot will be coming from mostly just glitchniques people haven't seen too often properly taken advantage of and possibly from the custom move Tornado Hold as well. I truly believe he can always win against Rosalina (especially after the Mewtwo patch) and of course Falcon just because Mega Man does have the damage advantage IMO. I do get that the frame data of C. Falcon's is better, I get that, but there are lots of situations that make the MU go either way. That's just the way I feel after playing enough Falcons that are decent.

Assuming something like DITCIT will stay, it definitely makes Mega Man stand more ground against Sheik and Olimar. Not that Sheik is really your biggest problem, but she'll always be the best character in the game nonetheless.

I definetely agree with you when it comes to fair buffs and leaf shield buffs but frame 1 up tilt?, i think that's too much, you could combo break really easily with that move if it was frame 1 with INVINCIVILITY, down smash having a sour spot is pretty stupid to me so i agree with you there too.

 

[Sorichuudo]

Or his meta progresses and people learn to use different tools or play the MU better.

Dabooze is in the MM might beat Rosa camp BTW.

Working on something big though. Gonna be interesting if it puts Mega over the top, but it's something nobody does atm.

Yay secrets.

Yeah that could work too, but as our meta progresses so does others, and as it stands now, i kinda agree that Megaman is not top tier. I'm not saying he doesn't have what it takes, and don't get me wrong, i am sticking with him, no matter what.
Also when i said about how he struggles with most of the cast, i didn't meant Rosa, i just gave her as an example of the obvious top tiers(her and Sheik), since those two don't have the problems we have with some characters.

That secret tho... can't wait :D

 

[X-FACTOR]

YO, Frame 1 UP-Tilt!

DO IT SAKURAI!

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

I think Megaman's ace is on his Nair, truth is it hasnt been explored as much as it should and it is great even tho it can only acomplish a maximun of 4% of damage it has a decent horizontal knockbck and it give one ofe the best aproaches in the game with ftilt>nair being not easily punished if shielded, and it also has great combo pontential still unexplpred

 

[CanadianMegaMan]

I think Megaman's ace is on his Nair, truth is it hasnt been explored as much as it should and it is great even tho it can only acomplish a maximun of 4% of damage it has a decent horizontal knockbck and it give one ofe the best aproaches in the game with ftilt>nair being not easily punished if shielded, and it also has great combo pontential still unexplpred

I love using it in place of Fair to seal the offstage kill, you dont even need rage on some characters, it just knocks them too far horizontally to recover.

 

[SimplyChrono]

I think Megaman's ace is on his Nair, truth is it hasnt been explored as much as it should and it is great even tho it can only acomplish a maximun of 4% of damage it has a decent horizontal knockbck and it give one ofe the best aproaches in the game with ftilt>nair being not easily punished if shielded, and it also has great combo pontential still unexplpred

While approaching with f tilt>nair is good, it's still really punishable so i would not say that is good as a "safe" approach

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

While approaching with f tilt>nair is good, it's still really punishable so i would not say that good as a "safe" approach

Do u full hop away?

 

[xIvan321]

I definetely agree with you when it comes to fair buffs and leaf shield buffs but frame 1 up tilt?, i think that's too much, you could combo break really easily with that move if it was frame 1 with INVINCIVILITY, down smash having a sour spot is pretty stupid to me so i agree with you there too.

Maybe you can combo break, but being a ground-based move I don't see it to be done as often as Vanilla Smash 4's Rush Coil. The reason for this is because dI'ing down doesn't exist in this game, and his natural fall speed isn't fast enough for this to occur as often. Buffing the frame data on this would give him at least one move one can't deny is fast, but is still very punishable one nonetheless if it misses. Nothing too wrong with it after all since we have ZSS with a frame 1 jab and Mega Man mains can more easily counter attack moves coming right at them, but you still gotta get it just right. Frame 1 or 2 would be fair. It would just make the attack a little more usable.

Then of course with down smash having no sour spots would be awesome since it still takes a lot to start up and to end. I can't count how many times a kill gets missed because of a few janky sour spots the move has. Its only a bad move due to that alone, not because of the animation.

I'd like there to be no cool down and/or less start up for leaf shield. That move doesn't know what it wants to be and sometimes it falls short of being actually effective. How its supposed to be used defensively is to eat up projectiles like Link's per say if you fire it at opponents, however the start up prevents that to be used at a moment's notice. (A lot like Rosalina's Down B only lessor.) Its offensive properties would be even more better without cool down because then with its already decent hitstun you could probably get a bair to kill people with. I still use the leaf shield a lot and find it useful, but its a bit underwhelming for the purposes the game directors wanted you to use it for... and I'm pretty sure they know that which is why they keep buffing the speed of it almost every other patch.

Throw in the removal of Mega Man's loop-da-loop animation on Rush Coil, and you got yourself a high tier character without needing any glitchniques without a doubt. Without that loop-da-loop he could combo from up throw like Sonic.

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

This thread is turning into a patch expectations thing..

 

[Greward]

Frame 1 up tilt would be absolutely broken lol.

 

[xIvan321]

This thread is turning into a patch expectations thing..

I derailed it, sorry about that. I can't help it.

 

[| Big D |]

No because you really shouldn't be maining him.

 

[---]

Never hurts to have a secondary/back up plan. "shrugs" Probably doesn't help that I'm secondary-ing Mewtwo though.

Working on something big though. Gonna be interesting if it puts Mega over the top, but it's something nobody does atm.

Yay secrets.

It's okay, I'm a mod & BRoomer. You can tell me.

 

[Diamond Octobot]

Never hurts to have a secondary/back up plan. "shrugs" Probably doesn't help that I'm secondary-ing Mewtwo though.


It's okay, I'm a mod & BRoomer. You can tell me.

Never hurts to have a secondary/back up plan. "shrugs" Probably doesn't help that I'm secondary-ing Mewtwo though.


It's okay, I'm a mod & BRoomer. You can tell me.

Never hurts to have a secondary/back up plan. "shrugs" Probably doesn't help that I'm secondary-ing Mewtwo though.


It's okay, I'm a mod & BRoomer. You can tell me.

Boo, trying to leech informations through your status. That's cruel... Just let Locke 06 get done, then he'll show us what he found. Don't spoil us

 

[Funkermonster]

MK wins the same way sheik and Greninja wins- his frame data beats ours. MM is a zoning character that likes people to stay at max lemon length. Sheik, Greninja, and MK all break that zone easily and often. From that point MM is limited to only one "get off me" move- his buster. Buster doesn't cover very much space and is very laggy, so the characters with fast moves are able to win every exchange once they break your zone.

Furthermore, these characters have the ability to break through lemon zoning so easily that it's a mixup in itself just to keep them at a distance without backing yourself against a ledge. MK can dash attack lemons and clank with them and then dash attack again to break through. He can also dash attack one to clank and then forward roll to get behind us (where we are completely helpless). Alternatively, he can also jump and land with a dair or nair if he calls us using lemons (since lemons are so laggy). Graninja can do the same with Nair and break through our lemon zoning. Alternatively, if he calls us jumping to use a lemon he can space a forward air and put us in a bad spot. Sheik I believe most people have experience with. Her needles are way better than our projectiles and he fair busts through all of our zoning easily. She can also just straight up jump over top of us and turn around grab as a sort of cross up.

When you take all of these options that these characters have and pit them versus MM's limited option (hitting with the megabuster) you can see how easily frustrating these MUs can become. Yes, you will run into people who don't know how to fight megaman (scat Vs Wizz robe at Smash n splash) but eventually people will learn the MM match up and we will lose our novelty/ surprise factor. People usually think that lemons are broken until I explain how committed we have to be in order to use them. After they learn how vulnerable MM is when using lemons they always improve immediately in the match up. As time goes on it will get tougher and tougher for us to place well in tournaments. I went from winning my 80 man local tournaments to getting 9th/ even as bad as 24th because people learned the MU and when I run into these faster characters it's usually the same as an anti-bye.

By all means, continue using megaman. I love the character. But we need to recognize that we are accepting a huge disadvantage in competitive play and that, unless we get the perfect bracket, we are going to have huge road blocks that prevent us from taking tournaments down.

Dunno about the MK since I have low experience with him, but I heavily disagree that is that bad a matchup for us. I don't mean to be rude but if you think he's 'near unwinnable' in your experiences, I think you are just being outplayed, severely (I say severely because calling it 'near unwinnable' is totally pushing it imo).

1. Gekkouga frame data better than Rockman's? That's not actually not saying much, because Gekkouga actually possess bad/mediocre frame data in general, many of his moves are rather slow to come out, lack long-lasting frames, or quite a bit of endlag; and he generally relies a bit on high commitment moves compared to the other fast characters.
2. Gekkouga's nair is slow to come out isn't safe on block, his nair has about as much range as the sweetspot of our nair and a lot of characters can shieldgrab it fairly easily. Even if he crosses up, I believe we can still punish with Usmash OoS, and Tornado Hold also works if customs are on (which combos into Fair, Danger Wrap, Uair, or Bair as well). His Fair has too much startup to use as an approach, and you read him doing it you can simply shoot him with a lemon to hit him out of it before the hitbox even comes out, or alternatively you can simply anti air with your own Fair, SH Uair, or Bair too. You say these things like Gekkouga a rushdown character, and Gekkouga's not really gonna be rushing anyone down with his slow frame data and in general his approach game isn't as good as you make it out to be and he has to play a heavy bait and punish style like Sonic & Meta Knight (who both also have bad approaches), unlike true rushdowns like Sheik. He has the mobility to bypass our zoning, but he doesn't have any easy mode approaching normals to go with it, and he's certainly not beating us in the projectile war.
3. One important thing to take note of: Gekkouga's Out of Shield options SUCK: Nair OoS? Nope. Usmash Oos? Still no. UpB OoS? Aw hell no. Shieldgrab? Doable, but Gekkouga has a grab as slow as 's, and that is to say really slow (14 frames to be exact, wtf?). Case in point, this character dreads having to push the shield button and that's something to take advantage of: Rockman's Bair, Fair, and Dair are all safe on shield with good spacing and Gekkouga does not have good tools to punish any of these, and remember that Metal Blades, Crash Bombers, Air Shooter, and sometimes even Leaf Shield (when combined with the other projectiles) are great for pressuring shields and we have an awesome grab with good combos from it.
4. Rockman gets access to better customs and I feel the matchup becomes a little easier with them on: Danger Wrap, Tornado Hold, Beat, Skull Barrier, and Plant Barrier can all be pretty effective against him when used right. I feel that Gekkouga only has like 3 custom moves he uses, none of which are particularly useful against us. His customs moves aren't bad, but most of them are preference-based, matchup dependent (again, none that are useful in this one), or just plain suck. With customs on, the way he plays shouldn't really change much if he uses any, where Danger Wrap and Tornado Hold will at least gives you more options for killing him and a good reversal for when you're pressured.

Honestly, this matchup is 40:60 at worst imo and even if it is in his favor, its not so bad that a backup is needed. No in way in hell is it 'near unwinnable', even Gekkouga mains themselves call it 55:45 only slightly in his favor. Considering how difficult it is to play him and he has a large learning curve, he isn't even a common sight and chances are that you'll barely meet any Gekougas at all (and if you do, he might not be a good one since he is still a complex character) unless somehow his popularity kickstarts in the future. As someone who mains both characters and uses them competitively, I feel and Rockman go super duper even with each other and it can honestly go either way. Not seein' what makes MK a hard counter to us, and while I personally don't well against Rosalina, I feel its due more to my own flaws as a player than anything else and I don't think she beats us that badly either, I've even some arguments that could lead to it being our favor; not to say it is, but it could be. We definitely lose to Sheik and I won't argue with that one, but so does most of the roster. When she has little to no bad matchups as a whole, it doesn't necessarily mean we are mediocre/bad (although it does mean we ain't godlike either), it means that Sheik may be slightly too good and if she ends up being broken, maybe she'll get banned in some tournaments like Brawl Meta Knight did.

I dunno, I understand what you're saying and you make a good point on faster characters being able to invade our personal space a bt ore easily, but overall, I honestly think your analysis is too pessimistic. I don't think Rockman has any matchups in this game that are that nightmareish and I think we have tools that help us deal with at least more than half the roster, even a few of the supposed top/high tiers like Sanic, Villager, Zero Suit Samus, and Weeee arguably fall victim to him. We just have a very high learning curve compared to other characters and take A LOT more work and effort to effectively use said tools. I personally feel Rock has potential to be a top 15 or even top 10 character if we continue to improve his meta and find loopholes around his weakness ad overtime he'll become an amazing character, its going to be a long road but it is possible, we just have to earn to endure off days and continue to push forward. But I will admit this though: while I feel we don't lose to very many characters, I don't exactly feel we cream anybody either..... except the terrible characters that almost everyone creams haha

 

[Kel]

Dunno about the MK since I have low experience with him, but I heavily disagree that is that bad a matchup for us. I don't mean to be rude but if you think he's 'near unwinnable' in your experiences, I think you are just being outplayed, severely (I say severely because calling it 'near unwinnable' is totally pushing it imo).

1. Gekkouga frame data better than Rockman's? That's not actually not saying much, because Gekkouga actually possess bad/mediocre frame data in general, many of his moves are rather slow to come out, lack long-lasting frames, or quite a bit of endlag; and he generally relies a bit on high commitment moves compared to the other fast characters.
2. Gekkouga's nair is slow to come out isn't safe on block, his nair has about as much range as the sweetspot of our nair and a lot of characters can shieldgrab it fairly easily. Even if he crosses up, I believe we can still punish with Usmash OoS, and Tornado Hold also works if customs are on (which combos into Fair, Danger Wrap, Uair, or Bair as well). His Fair has too much startup to use as an approach, and you read him doing it you can simply shoot him with a lemon to hit him out of it before the hitbox even comes out, or alternatively you can simply anti air with your own Fair, SH Uair, or Bair too. You say these things like Gekkouga a rushdown character, and Gekkouga's not really gonna be rushing anyone down with his slow frame data and in general his approach game isn't as good as you make it out to be and he has to play a heavy bait and punish style like Sonic & Meta Knight (who both also have bad approaches), unlike true rushdowns like Sheik. He has the mobility to bypass our zoning, but he doesn't have any easy mode approaching normals to go with it, and he's certainly not beating us in the projectile war.
3. One important thing to take note of: Gekkouga's Out of Shield options SUCK: Nair OoS? Nope. Usmash Oos? Still no. UpB OoS? Aw hell no. Shieldgrab? Doable, but Gekkouga has a grab as slow as 's, and that is to say really slow (14 frames to be exact, wtf?). Case in point, this character dreads having to push the shield button and that's something to take advantage of: Rockman's Bair, Fair, and Dair are all safe on shield with good spacing and Gekkouga does not have good tools to punish any of these, and remember that Metal Blades, Crash Bombers, Air Shooter, and sometimes even Leaf Shield (when combined with the other projectiles) are great for pressuring shields and we have an awesome grab with good combos from it.
4. Rockman gets access to better customs and I feel the matchup becomes a little easier with them on: Danger Wrap, Tornado Hold, Beat, Skull Barrier, and Plant Barrier can all be pretty effective against him when used right. I feel that Gekkouga only has like 3 custom moves he uses, none of which are particularly useful against us. His customs moves aren't bad, but most of them are preference-based, matchup dependent (again, none that are useful in this one), or just plain suck. With customs on, the way he plays shouldn't really change much if he uses any, where Danger Wrap and Tornado Hold will at least gives you more options for killing him and a good reversal for when you're pressured.

Honestly, this matchup is 40:60 at worst imo and even if it is in his favor, its not so bad that a backup is needed. No in way in hell is it 'near unwinnable', even Gekkouga mains themselves call it 55:45 only slightly in his favor. Considering how difficult it is to play him and he has a large learning curve, he isn't even a common sight and chances are that you'll barely meet any Gekougas at all (and if you do, he might not be a good one since he is still a complex character) unless somehow his popularity kickstarts in the future. As someone who mains both characters and uses them competitively, I feel and Rockman go super duper even with each other and it can honestly go either way. Not seein' what makes MK a hard counter to us, and while I personally don't well against Rosalina, I feel its due more to my own flaws as a player than anything else and I don't think she beats us that badly either, I've even some arguments that could lead to it being our favor; not to say it is, but it could be. We definitely lose to Sheik and I won't argue with that one, but so does most of the roster. When she has little to no bad matchups as a whole, it doesn't necessarily mean we are mediocre/bad (although it does mean we ain't godlike either), it means that Sheik may be slightly too good and if she ends up being broken, maybe she'll get banned in some tournaments like Brawl Meta Knight did.

I dunno, I understand what you're saying and you make a good point on faster characters being able to invade our personal space a bt ore easily, but overall, I honestly think your analysis is too pessimistic. I don't think Rockman has any matchups in this game that are that nightmareish and I think we have tools that help us deal with at least more than half the roster, even a few of the supposed top/high tiers like Sanic, Villager, Zero Suit Samus, and Weeee arguably fall victim to him. We just have a very high learning curve compared to other characters and take A LOT more work and effort to effectively use said tools. I personally feel Rock has potential to be a top 15 or even top 10 character if we continue to improve his meta and find loopholes around his weakness ad overtime he'll become an amazing character, its going to be a long road but it is possible, we just have to earn to endure off days and continue to push forward. But I will admit this though: while I feel we don't lose to very many characters, I don't exactly feel we cream anybody either..... except the terrible characters that almost everyone creams haha

I used to beat this player's Greninja. He got to the point where all his moves would eat through my projectiles and then his frame data would win. He learned the match up

I switched to using sheik for the first time in tournament against him after getting 2 stocked and went down to the last stock with him- just as good as wizzrobe did against him in some of their matches later that day. He ended up timing me out but I had absolutely ZERO sheik experience and still did much, much better.

maybe you are bad at the MM matchup with your greninja?

 

[Funkermonster]

I used to beat this player's Greninja. He got to the point where all his moves would eat through my projectiles and then his frame data would win. He learned the match up

I switched to using sheik for the first time in tournament against him after getting 2 stocked and went down to the last stock with him- just as good as wizzrobe did against him in some of their matches later that day. He ended up timing me out but I had absolutely ZERO sheik experience and still did much, much better.

maybe you are bad at the MM matchup with your greninja?

OR maybe you are being heavily outplayed and your opponent is just better than you are, like as mentioned earlier. Maybe your opponent adapted to your playstyle, and you didn't adapt back. Maybe you are tunnel visioned and do not know all of your options against Gekkouga, and as such you don't utilize them and that's what costs you the game. Maybe you're having off days and not playing as well as you normally do. Maybe your opponent just leveled up as a player in his spare time and he's now passing you by and beating you to the finish line, although that one kind of goes back to one player adapting while the other fails to. I could go on. Look, I don't want this to get heated or start a flame war or anything like that, but I still think you're being outplayed and I still think the matchup is nowhere near unwinnable, especially supported by the Gekkouga boards calling it 55:45 or 60:40, it may be in his favor but barely. I mean, if many of the people who play him don't think its unloseable for them, it must not be sand they've got to have pretty darn good reasons behind them. Still not convinced we lose this matchup.

Also, I figured that matchups are always equal skill among the two characters and their respective players. Honestly, unless you are confident that you are the best with your character in your respective region and you have good evidence to support it, using personal experiences like "I used to beat the best [insert character name] but now I get wrekt" as your defense is kind of a weak argument, and I personally take said arguments with a grain of salt. Mind you, I never even use MY OWN experiences as my defense because of this.

If I did use my experiences, we don't have very many Gekkougas in my region at all (none of whom are and I've personally met only a handful of other Rockmen, and I am debatably among my region's most prominent players with both characters. There is another well-known Mega Man we have and I played him online at one point, he beat me pretty badly the first couple times but overtime I eventually adapted and grew more patient and started getting the better of him. Even so, I felt that while I adapted, he didn't, and if it were me playing Rockman, I would've played that a little differently and maybe the outcomes could've changed. There are 2 other Rockmen we have that I faced with my Gekkouga and I beat both of them pretty soundly, again I felt I outplayed them and that they could've done better, they are decent but not great players imo and aren't quite as skilled as the first one. For all the factors I mentioned in the first paragraph, I still do not use this as my defense in my MU argument, but simply a response to ur last point about me being bad at the MM matchup with my Gekkouga. If you're trying to say that you think I get bodied in this MU when I'm the one playing, that isn't the case, mind you.

Maybe if you showed a video of both you guys playing without either one of you making too many blatant mistakes, I'd believe you. Otherwise it doesn't really show its the character's faults, maybe its yours and you don't realize it.

 

[Kel]

Yes, I do not deny the possibility that someone has gotten better than me.

However, I picked up a character I had never played before and almost beat the same guy in the same set that he was 2 stocking me.....

There are no videos because he does not like being recorded. The whole point of my original post in this thread was that different MM mains from different regions are saying different high/top tier characters are beating us. This seems to be due to regional character development more than anything as not all regions have equal character usage/ good players. My region has very developed MK, Greninja, and Mii brawlers so I deal with them a lot- especially compared to other regions.

The Greninja matchup went from difficult, to annoying, to frustrating. Maybe you are putting too much stock into me saying something is "unwinnable". Yes, a Megaman might be able to squeak a win out here and there in tournaments, but it's not a matchup we would want to play. We would definitely want a secondary for it (IE the title of this thread). I believe that as Greninjas develop their game and learn MM's weaknesses you will see the match up become increasingly more difficult in other regions as well (barring any newly discovered MM techs/ patches).

Also, side note, I AM the best megaman in my region. I used to win tournaments (80+ entrants) with him and now get 9th-24th. I have posted my results in the tournaments results thread. You can take a look there if you are curious.

 

[Greward]

I've had the same problem than @ Kel here.
I started using Mega, and I dominated my scene pretty hard. At some point I started dominating less and less, and I felt a bit weak with Mega so I swapped and started playing Ness / Luigi.
I'm dominating again thanks to these characters which are superior.
I'm still thinking of going back to Mega from time to time but if I do I don't think I'll be able to keep winning the tournaments in my region so...

I kinda lack experience against Greninja / MK but I can see them being disadvantaged matchups, although I believe there are some that are way worse.

 

[Red Shirt KRT]

I think people have trouble with mega man because he isn't super common, and even less common is a good meGa man. Once they know how to get around lemons and they know his weaknesses he can become easier for others to counter.

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

I think people have trouble with mega man because he isn't super common, and even less common is a good meGa man. Once they know how to get around lemons and they know his weaknesses he can become easier for others to counter.

Then we should find new approaches! DCTIT (or whatever it is called) to grab will make for an easy approach

 

[Nu~]

Then we should find new approaches! DCTIT (or whatever it is called) to grab will make for an easy approach

It's also a predictable one. The problem is that mega man has few approaches because he was built as a heavy mid range zoner, but those that can bypass his pellet game and other zoning tools (MK, Falcon, Little Mac, Pac-Man, etc.) can get in, or keep him out rather easily.

He has no safe aerials to approach with, he is too slow to dash grab well like falcon, and DITCIT gets predictable if you use it to approach too much (captain falcon's jab can beat metal blade and the upcoming grab).

He has built in weaknesses that can be mitigated through smart play, but will never be truly fixed. And that's why I don't think he'll ever party with the best of them. I see mega man as a high mid tier at best.

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

It's also a predictable one. The problem is that mega man has few approaches because he was built as a heavy mid range zoner, but those that can bypass his pellet game and other zoning tools (MK, Falcon, Little Mac, Pac-Man, etc.) can get in, or keep him out rather easily.

He has no safe aerials to approach with, he is too slow to dash grab well like falcon, and DITCIT gets predictable if you use it to approach too much (captain falcon's jab can beat metal blade and the upcoming grab).

He has built in weaknesses that can be mitigated through smart play, but will never be truly fixed. And that's why I don't think he'll ever party with the best of them. I see mega man as a high mid tier at best.

I think his versatility is awesome since all of his moves are unique (even the 3 different pellets) so he can play many different playstyles and MB is such a versatile tool, and we can do the DICIT to fsmash to Falcon

 

[Funkermonster]

It's also a predictable one. The problem is that mega man has few approaches because he was built as a heavy mid range zoner, but those that can bypass his pellet game and other zoning tools (MK, Falcon, Little Mac, Pac-Man, etc.) can get in, or keep him out rather easily.

He has no safe aerials to approach with, he is too slow to dash grab well like falcon, and DITCIT gets predictable if you use it to approach too much (captain falcon's jab can beat metal blade and the upcoming grab).

He has built in weaknesses that can be mitigated through smart play, but will never be truly fixed. And that's why I don't think he'll ever party with the best of them. I see mega man as a high mid tier at best.

Fair, Bair, and autocanceled Dair say hi and are all safe on block with spacing. Z-Dropping MBs, planting Crash Bombers, turning Leaf Shield on, and cancelling out opposing projectiles with lemons works too. In customs, Skull Barrier arguably gives us the best defense against projectiles since it basically gives a temporary Franklin Badge, and we're already of dealing with zoning by lemoning and leaf shield. Little Mac can straight up rush through lemons, but overall? Dunno about MK, but I don't think Mac a bad MU at all tbh. Little Mac is still Little Mac: can't really deal with platform camping, is cake to juggle, has one of the weakest grabs in the game (slow with like 9/10/11 frames of startup and awful range, especially for a guy who's supposed to have the best ground game of the bunch), and his recovery is still as crappy as ever. I don't think we destroy him by any means, but I do think its still in our favor nonetheless. Bowser can also rush through lemons, but we still have other tools that handle him too.

I think Mega Man has high tier potential, actually, and I find that we don't have any MUs that particularly awful besides Falcon & Sheik, others like Pac-Man, Greninja, Fox, etc. might beat us but not nearly as much. Even a few of the supposed top and high tiers fall victim to us and that says quit a bit: (even when Hoo Hah existed)

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

Fair, Bair, and autocanceled Dair say hi and are all safe on block with spacing. Z-Dropping MBs, planting Crash Bombers, turning Leaf Shield on, and cancelling out opposing projectiles with lemons works too. In customs, Skull Barrier arguably gives us the best defense against projectiles since it basically gives a temporary Franklin Badge, and we're already of dealing with zoning by lemoning and leaf shield. Little Mac can straight up rush through lemons, but overall? Dunno about MK, but I don't think Mac a bad MU at all tbh. Little Mac is still Little Mac: can't really deal with platform camping, is cake to juggle, has one of the weakest grabs in the game (slow with like 9/10/11 frames of startup and awful range, especially for a guy who's supposed to have the best ground game of the bunch), and his recovery is still as crappy as ever. I don't think we destroy him by any means, but I do think its still in our favor nonetheless. Bowser can also rush through lemons, but we still have other tools that handle him too.

I think Mega Man has high tier potential, actually, and I find that we don't have any MUs that particularly awful besides Falcon & Sheik, others like Pac-Man, Greninja, Fox, etc. might beat us but not nearly as much. Even a few of the supposed top and high tiers fall victim to us and that says quit a bit: (even when Hoo Hah existed)

Explain Sanic please

 

[Red Shirt KRT]

Yea I don't think sonic is a good matchup for us. I've faced some really good ones and they can be extremely tough

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

Yea I don't think sonic is a good matchup for us. I've faced some really good ones and they can be extremely tough

We literally cannot do a single Smash attack, if whiffed..

 

[Nu~]

Fair, Bair, and autocanceled Dair say hi and are all safe on block with spacing. Z-Dropping MBs, planting Crash Bombers, turning Leaf Shield on, and cancelling out opposing projectiles with lemons works too. In customs, Skull Barrier arguably gives us the best defense against projectiles since it basically gives a temporary Franklin Badge, and we're already of dealing with zoning by lemoning and leaf shield. Little Mac can straight up rush through lemons, but overall? Dunno about MK, but I don't think Mac a bad MU at all tbh. Little Mac is still Little Mac: can't really deal with platform camping, is cake to juggle, has one of the weakest grabs in the game (slow with like 9/10/11 frames of startup and awful range, especially for a guy who's supposed to have the best ground game of the bunch), and his recovery is still as crappy as ever. I don't think we destroy him by any means, but I do think its still in our favor nonetheless. Bowser can also rush through lemons, but we still have other tools that handle him too.

I think Mega Man has high tier potential, actually, and I find that we don't have any MUs that particularly awful besides Falcon & Sheik, others like Pac-Man, Greninja, Fox, etc. might beat us but not nearly as much. Even a few of the supposed top and high tiers fall victim to us and that says quit a bit: (even when Hoo Hah existed)

Fair and Bair are definitely not safe on block. They both suffer too much landing lag. I'll give you Dair, but the heavy startup makes it extremely easy to see coming. Planting crash bombers isn't an approach unless your opponent decides to sit in shield and let you run up. Turning leaf shield in doesn't give you an approach against anyone. I'm confused as to why you brought that up. The leaves have very low priority and can be beaten out by many attacks (hell, you can even grab mega man out of it in some cases).
So no, mega man still has very few safe approach options.

Pointing out mac's weaknesses means nothing to me because you didn't talk about why they matter any more in this matchup than any other. You don't explain the matchup.
Overall, little Mac is running through most of your defenses, abusing your combo meat attributes, and punishing your very unsafe methods of getting in.

Stage selection does screw him over though.

 

[Diamond Octobot]

We still have a general MU thread, so if you could discuss Lil' Mac there... Which makes me think. Did you suddently get to like Mega Man, @ Nu~ ? That is far from being a reproach, it would just be kinda unexpected.

Now, on the topic, I think Mega Man REALLY needs a secondary when you get at higher levels of play. He's not that bad, but his laggy moves, risky kill moves and few ways to appproach make him vulnerable. You can play Mega man only, since he might be the only character of the cast with no unwinable MUs, but you'll have to work a lot to get wins against some characters, and you really don't watnt to get tired too fast. Now, I wouldn't be able to say that a character in particular would be able to fill .'s weaknesses, but experimenting other characters definitely helps to find someone who could possibly fit the job AND helps to become a better player overall.
P.S. : Dem walls of text tho...

 

[Nu~]

We still have a general MU thread, so if you could discuss Lil' Mac there... Which makes me think. Did you suddently get to like Mega Man, @ Nu~ ? That is far from being a reproach, it would just be kinda unexpected.

Now, on the topic, I think Mega Man REALLY needs a secondary when you get at higher levels of play. He's not that bad, but his laggy moves, risky kill moves and few ways to appproach make him vulnerable. You can play Mega man only, since he might be the only character of the cast with no unwinable MUs, but you'll have to work a lot to get wins against some characters, and you really don't watnt to get tired too fast. Now, I wouldn't be able to say that a character in particular would be able to fill .'s weaknesses, but experimenting other characters definitely helps to find someone who could possibly fit the job AND helps to become a better player overall.
P.S. : Dem walls of text tho...

I have been back and forth between comaining him and not (part of the reason why I felt so comfortable in our first matches. I knew/know how he worked/works)

I've decided to let him go to focus on Pac-Man more.

Edit: There are actually a lot of characters without unwinnable matchups. Top tiers obviously, but high tiers like Pac-Man and villager don't have matchups that bad either