Does Megaman really needs a secondary?

[Rush 2112]

I've even rolled past the reflector and turnaround grabbed/smash attacked.

I don't think any of those matchups are all that hard. If you assume those characters are being played at top level you also assume that about MM.

 

[Erimir]

Fortunately against Falco you don't always have to be the one approaching since you can duck under his laser.

So many Falcos on FG think they can just sit there and spam laser and then use the reflector when you approach. Just duck and sit there while they spam lasers and you'll literally be able to see them stop and think about what they should do before they decide to approach. And when they're the one approaching the reflector is much less of a problem.

Obviously you do need to approach sometimes though. I haven't been playing for a little bit since I've been moving and now waiting on new internet service to be set up, but while the reflector is definitely a problem there are ways around it at least against most people I've played (Falco's buffs in the latest patch definitely make him noticeably harder though, since before the patch the reflector was a problem but he wasn't that great otherwise...).

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

I think there are a lot of things of Megaman people doesnt take advantage of, like his great Pivot fsmash that covers a huge distance

 

[CanadianMegaMan]

I think there are a lot of things of Megaman people doesnt take advantage of, like his great Pivot fsmash that covers a huge distance

I noticed you don't use crash bomber and was wondering if there was any particular reason why? Crash bomber is a great way to force your opponent to do something. Whether they shield, rush you down, or ignore it and tank the hit, it allows megaman to better predict his opponent and go for the hard read. Vs. opponents that like to shield it, a full charge fsmash following the explosion usually breaks shields or brings it very close.

Edit: Also, down tilt is another move I dont see you using often. It's great for getting people up into the air for up air strings or other aerials. At low percent it can also lead into up smash or f smash depending on where along the slide you hit your opponent. (close to mega leads into up smash, the tip of the slide leads to f smash)

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

I noticed you don't use crash bomber and was wondering if there was any particular reason why? Crash bomber is a great way to force your opponent to do something. Whether they shield, rush you down, or ignore it and tank the hit, it allows megaman to better predict his opponent and go for the hard read. Vs. opponents that like to shield it, a full charge fsmash following the explosion usually breaks shields or brings it very close.

Edit: Also, down tilt is another move I dont see you using often. It's great for getting people up into the air for up air strings or other aerials. At low percent it can also lead into up smash or f smash depending on where along the slide you hit your opponent. (close to mega leads into up smash, the tip of the slide leads to f smash)

I dont use Crashbomb that much because Luigi easily destroys it with fireballs and dtilt I didnt notice, it may be because my circle pad sets down as neutral after pressing down hard

 

[xIvan321]

I dont use Crashbomb that much because Luigi easily destroys it with fireballs and dtilt I didnt notice, it may be because my circle pad sets down as neutral after pressing down hard

You can shoot another crash bomber right after it clashes. As long as you're clashing you can keep firing non-stop during a match.

 

[CanadianMegaMan]

I dont use Crashbomb that much because Luigi easily destroys it with fireballs and dtilt I didnt notice, it may be because my circle pad sets down as neutral after pressing down hard

VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV

You can shoot another crash bomber right after it clashes. As long as you're clashing you can keep firing non-stop during a match.

adding on to this, just because a character can stop one of your projectiles doesnt mean you should stop using it. Many characters can destroy one or two of your projectiles, but if you maintain max pellet range you can very quickly spam out crash bombs blades and pellets in any order and they can beat all of them.

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV



adding on to this, just because a character can stop one of your projectiles doesnt mean you should stop using it. Many characters can destroy one or two of your projectiles, but if you maintain max pellet range you can very quickly spam out crash bombs blades and pellets in any order and they can beat all of them.

Yes but its like this, pellets can easily be cancelled but they can come in a combo of three and are low comittment, metal blade is great for punishing or a read you make and then it can lead to other greater stuff (grabs perhaps) but crashbomber.. it is easily canceled and almost useless against a shield ( such a low shield pressure) so I prefer to use it mostly for safely returning the stage or at the start of an opponents stock when they have respawn

 

[CanadianMegaMan]

Yes but its like this, pellets can easily be cancelled but they can come in a combo of three and are low comittment, metal blade is great for punishing or a read you make and then it can lead to other greater stuff (grabs perhaps) but crashbomber.. it is easily canceled and almost useless against a shield ( such a low shield pressure) so I prefer to use it mostly for safely returning the stage or at the start of an opponents stock when they have respawn

While it is true that the crash bomb is easily destroyed in flight, if it sticks, the predictability it forces from your opponent is great for mega mans play style. Limiting your opponents options is always a good thing. It's incredibly satisfying to land a crash bomber > metal blade > full charge fsmash on someones shield at 90% and then walk over and uptilt them.

What I usually do is alternate between metal blade and crash bomber until either a) they get within max pellet range, b) a metal blade hits and I feel like comboing off of it, or c) a crash bomber sticks. This allows the first metal blade to potentially tank a hit for the bomb, and if the bomb sticks, the second blade is right on its tail forcing immediate reaction from your opponent.

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

after playimg a lot of Megaman, I realized if you use a secondary with him you lose your "main" focus, so I think he doesnt need a secondary..

 

[CanadianMegaMan]

after playimg a lot of Megaman, I realized if you use a secondary with him you lose your "main" focus, so I think he doesnt need a secondary..

You're improving significantly. The only advice I would give you is to mix up with down tilt more at close range and mix up with up smash to catch landings instead of relying so heavily on air shooter. Also, close range down tilt into up smash can work pretty well unless they jump, in which case, your air shooter game seems pretty solid so you should know what to do. Keep up the good work, fellow mega main.

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

You're improving significantly. The only advice I would give you is to mix up with down tilt more at close range and mix up with up smash to catch landings instead of relying so heavily on air shooter. Also, close range down tilt into up smash can work pretty well unless they jump, in which case, your air shooter game seems pretty solid so you should know what to do. Keep up the good work, fellow mega main.

Thanks for the feedback ^^

 

[Drarky]

In all honesty, I think he only needs one for the Sheik MU (which is kind of a struggle because almost everyone loses to her), everything else doesn't seem to be really all that difficult or impossible to deal with (Not saying MM wins everything, but he doesn't really have any char besides Sheik that you can't compete).

And yes, Sheik IS a huge problem for Mega Man, we are food for her early on, and after the 100%'s, she juggles us around with needles, combine that with our lack of really safe option on shield (Lemons are counted out because we have to get in straight line... which is where Sheik want us to be for more needles) and you've got a pretty harsh game.

 

[Mega-Spider]

In all honesty, I think he only needs one for the Sheik MU (which is kind of a struggle because almost everyone loses to her), everything else doesn't seem to be really all that difficult or impossible to deal with (Not saying MM wins everything, but he doesn't really have any char besides Sheik that you can't compete).

And yes, Sheik IS a huge problem for Mega Man, we are food for her early on, and after the 100%'s, she juggles us around with needles, combine that with our lack of really safe option on shield (Lemons are counted out because we have to get in straight line... which is where Sheik want us to be for more needles) and you've got a pretty harsh game.

> most of the roster.
The only characters I see giving Sheik an even or slightly harder challenge are and . They're fast like Sheik, have spacing tools that are good like the Needles, and and can combo to a level that almost rivals Sheik.
I'd say it's the only completely unfair match up, since while there are match ups that are bad for us like Falcon, Mario, and Fox, at least there's something we have that can give us the edge. Sheik is almost like running a race on one leg; it's not going to work out.

 

[xIvan321]

I wouldn't really say the Sheik MU is that horrible. There are a lot of silverlinings that can be explored, however to execute them all at once takes tremendous work to use them all at once without fail in a single match making it still sorta true that Sheik has an easier time being played as than Mega Man here, but what we can say for certain is this: We've yet to see a truly mastered Mega Man use all he has against Sheik. We have the best 1v1 competitive item and z-dropping is 1 frame, but even with the crap range, there's still a lot to offer from it if completely mastered. Plus there are plenty of moves Mega Man has that poke through shield, air shooter being the most useful when shield has deteriorated enough, it auto cancels, and vs fast fallers, it normally combos them and sets up for kills. Mega Man's d-throw to bair will kill Sheik at 70%~ with a bit of rage btw.

I do still believe Mega Man can still be as good as Sheik knowing that there are a lot of hidden tech of his own he could take advantage of, however, he cannot be as good without a player working 4x the effort, and that's not a bad thing necessarily. To give you a good perspective how I feel playing as Mega Man is... Its a bit like not L-Cancelling or wave dashing in Melee. Its available, but if you don't use it in the competitive environment, you're gonna get stomped hard by other players taking advantage of that and play better than you...

From my own match up experience I can honestly say the only thing that is a big deal to me is simply Sheik's fair. The needles are easy to deal with as Mega Man since he could air stall to avoid being juggled by needles like some characters actually do. You can perfect shield, duck, or trade metal blade against her. I have a whole anti-guide all in my mind here and I know the only thing to worry about is her fair. I know I can do well against her

 

[Sorichuudo]

Mega Man's d-throw to bair will kill Sheik at 70%~ with a bit of rage btw.

Is that ever a true combo?

 

[Mega-Spider]

I wouldn't really say the Sheik MU is that horrible. There are a lot of silverlinings that can be explored, however to execute them all at once takes tremendous work to use them all at once without fail in a single match making it still sorta true that Sheik has an easier time being played as than Mega Man here, but what we can say for certain is this: We've yet to see a truly mastered Mega Man use all he has against Sheik. We have the best 1v1 competitive item and z-dropping is 1 frame, but even with the crap range, there's still a lot to offer from it if completely mastered. Plus there are plenty of moves Mega Man has that poke through shield, air shooter being the most useful when shield has deteriorated enough, it auto cancels, and vs fast fallers, it normally combos them and sets up for kills. Mega Man's d-throw to bair will kill Sheik at 70%~ with a bit of rage btw.

I do still believe Mega Man can still be as good as Sheik knowing that there are a lot of hidden tech of his own he could take advantage of, however, he cannot be as good without a player working 4x the effort, and that's not a bad thing necessarily. To give you a good perspective how I feel playing as Mega Man is... Its a bit like not L-Cancelling or wave dashing in Melee. Its available, but if you don't use it in the competitive environment, you're gonna get stomped hard by other players taking advantage of that and play better than you... and in a sense that means p

From my own match up experience I can honestly say the only thing that is a big deal to me is simply Sheik's fair. The needles are easy to deal with as Mega Man since he could air stall to avoid being juggled by needles like some characters actually do. You can perfect shield, duck, or trade metal blade against her. I have a whole anti-guide all in my mind here and I know the only thing to worry about is her fair. I know I can do well against her

It's guys like you that make me feel confident that Mega Man isn't low tier. I don't know, I just hate it when people say he's low tier because he clearly isn't. I still say Sheik's a bad match up, but hey, to each his own.

 

[Erimir]

Well, even if all that is true, the fact is that most Mega Man players aren't going to be playing at that high of a level (most players who are are going to choose to play higher tier characters that have more advantages and are mostly easier to use). I'm sure Mega Man has untapped potential, but I don't think saying that Sheik is beatable if you're an amazing player who has mastered the tech and doesn't make mistakes really makes it not a bad matchup for Mega.

Even if, in theory, a perfectly played Mega Man will always beat a perfectly played Sheik, the fact is that's not how the matchup will be played. And as far as tournament results and good players' opinions, it seems that she simply is better at the level of play tournaments do attract. Maybe Mega Man will see a rise in his standing, but I don't see a lot of reason to speculate about how 1.1.0 Sheik vs. Mega Man would develop over years as there will be more patches in the future.

Sheik's dominance is such that I'm pretty sure she'll get some substantial nerfs within the next couple patches. They nerfed Diddy pretty hard, and Sheik deserves it almost as much as Diddy did. I expect she'll get some more lag or have her moves weakened... probably more of the latter, as being quick is kinda her "thing". Altho she could be made a little slower while keeping her still one of the least laggy characters. Mega Man will probably not get as many substantial changes since he's neither especially powerful nor weak, but a few buffs here and there would not be surprising (d-smash seems like a good candidate for a buff).

 

[xIvan321]

Is that ever a true combo?

Sheik might be able to still DI but the fact that she's one of the top natural fast fallers is an advantage for Mega Man, which not only can you confirm a kill that early with Sheik, but you combo her much easier than a lot of the cast. It also didn't take much percent dealt to influence the rage mechanic to the point where bair just becomes a lot more viable. I've killed Sheik players many times from just a grab.

 

[Jehtt]

It's guys like you that make me feel confident that Mega Man isn't low tier. I don't know, I just hate it when people say he's low tier because he clearly isn't. I still say Sheik's a bad match up, but hey, to each his own.

According to this thread, Mega Man is generally perceived as a relevant threat in the meta game, so I don't think anyone worth listening to thinks he's low tier.

 

[Drarky]

I've never heard someone calling Mega low tier, his unique gameplay and style thanks to his mid-range mastery is something that is not commonly seen in Smash, and it gives the character a lot over others that are just stuck with being "A worse x char".

 

[xIvan321]

I feel this topic has very low moral of the character to put it simple. There isn't anything really game breaking that would put him in such a disadvantage. Sheik's fair may come close though, the rest... meh. I never saw as a big threat to Mega Man in any way, in fact I see them as positive match ups. The only characters I may perceive as a threat at the highest level is between somewhere between those two probably has me working the hardest for certain.

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

I think the only think Megaman lacks is a good representation, thats why I had an idea on how to show our representations to other chracters subforums but almost everyone seemed to ignore it

 

[Funkermonster]

I feel this topic has very low moral of the character to put it simple. There isn't anything really game breaking that would put him in such a disadvantage. Sheik's fair may come close though, the rest... meh. I never saw as a big threat to Mega Man in any way, in fact I see them as positive match ups. The only characters I may perceive as a threat at the highest level is between somewhere between those two probably has me working the hardest for certain.

Explain why you think are positive matchups... please.

 

[xIvan321]

Explain why you think are positive matchups... please.

Greninja's specials aren't easily executed without being interrupted and he's a natural fast faller. While specials aren't everything they do slow him down.

The rest are a different can of worms where I'm going to explain pretty carefully. Lets start with Fox. reflectors aren't the the end game of Mega Man and you can easily get away with firing metal blade from long range as long as its a short hop. The metal blade will just gracefully fly past your head. Lasers can be ducked under and like Rosalina, he gets edge guarded by Mega Man pretty easily. On the ground, both characters can keep up with each other having the same kind of d-throw follow ups; average, except Mega Man can actually kill him in the MU from a throw alone at kill range for being a natural fast faller, or from a back throw. When it comes down to it, you can fight Fox, just don't expect to keep away the entire match, and I'd encourage to fight more aggressive while at the same time taking advantage of your own range to approach him.

Moving on to Falcon, some stuff from the Fox paragraph sorta applies, with a lot of key major differences, like for instance Falcon has fewer safe attacks. Possibly the one match up where up air is most effective against Falcon 1) being too damn tall; easily poked through deteriorated enough shields (this also applies for other moves Mega Man possess.) and 2) not the heaviest faller, but its noticeable making him more combo food for it. For edge guarding, I'd go with fair if you figure when he's about to recover, and I'm not sure if the Leaf Shield buff has made it more easier for him to be leaf stooled. (I need to use leaf shield more. I haven't lately.) Dash grab? That end lag is terrible and one could always jump over it. Predictable use of it is game over for Falcon players. Feel free to also play as aggressive especially when necessary, though lots of his moves also get stumped by pellets as well.

Rosalina could go either way, but as long as you know how to eliminate Luma quickly and edge guard Rosalina you'll make it. Down B can be deemed more or less useless to her if you as the player keep using the Metal Blade as bait. If you learn how to DITCIT, this is where it could come most in handy.

 

[CanadianMegaMan]

I kind of-sort of agree with him being at least even with falcon, greninja, and sonic, because he can shut them out with projectiles and grabs, but the other three are much harder to deal with than most of the cast.

 

[Diamond Octobot]

I can't call , and positive MUs (I consider Falcon to be the only negative one), but is a positive one IMO.
I mean, our biggest problem here is to get rid of Luma because he hits TOO HARD for a star-shaped pillow and serves as a meat shield for Rosa, but he takes heavy dapage from Metal Blades, Crash Bombs, Slash Claw and Slide, the 2 last ones being able to outright kill it by sending it offstage at whatever % it has. We already know how punishable Gravity Pull is in Mid-Range, so I won't get on that. Luma really is the only threat Rosa has against us, and he is much more effective in the air (given that he doesn't get NAir'ed). No really, Rosa is far from being negative.

 

[Jehtt]

I can mostly agree with and maybe being winning MUs, but the rest I'm not so certain. I'd put all of the ones you listed at +-0 except (I feel she wins slightly).

 

[xIvan321]

I could argue for average or slightly positive, and on some, definitely positive. For Fox, I have an easier time dealing with him because I know the MU quite well, and its tough for me to lose that easily. I could consider it tied to slightly positive because its tougher for Fox to edge guard, on ground he has to deal with Mega Man's weight, and considering he's both light and a fast faller leads him to be potentially killed early to viable kill range from a d-throw follow up or a back throw alone at 100% or less.

As for ZSS, she's only really tough if you make big mistakes, and you could play neutral better than her.

 

[Mega-Spider]

I could argue for average or slightly positive, and on some, definitely positive. For Fox, I have an easier time dealing with him because I know the MU quite well, and its tough for me to lose that easily. I could consider it tied to slightly positive because its tougher for Fox to edge guard, on ground he has to deal with Mega Man's weight, and considering he's both light and a fast faller leads him to be potentially killed early to viable kill range from a d-throw follow up or a back throw alone at 100% or less.

As for :ZSS:, she's only really tough if you make big mistakes, and you could play neutral better than her.

I know two people who main Fox, and I often play the patient game with them. With characters like and , the best thing to do is to be patient. Getting hasty will be the end of you, because I've experienced that when I was learning the match up. Reflector does negate our Side Smash, but since Fox is so light, we can afford to lose that for a B-Air or B-Throw. I often play the waiting game for the beginning of the stock, and around mid percentage (around 50-80%), I get more aggressive with Metal Blade tricks and D-tilts. Around 100% is when I start getting ready to decide my kill. With Fox, I often go for a B-Throw at the end of the stage, but if they end up lagging with the Fox Illusion, if I can get them on time, U-tilt, but B-Throw's the safer and better option IMO.

 

[Funkermonster]

Greninja's specials aren't easily executed without being interrupted and he's a natural fast faller. While specials aren't everything they do slow him down.

The rest are a different can of worms where I'm going to explain pretty carefully. Lets start with Fox. reflectors aren't the the end game of Mega Man and you can easily get away with firing metal blade from long range as long as its a short hop. The metal blade will just gracefully fly past your head. Lasers can be ducked under and like Rosalina, he gets edge guarded by Mega Man pretty easily. On the ground, both characters can keep up with each other having the same kind of d-throw follow ups; average, except Mega Man can actually kill him in the MU from a throw alone at kill range for being a natural fast faller, or from a back throw. When it comes down to it, you can fight Fox, just don't expect to keep away the entire match, and I'd encourage to fight more aggressive while at the same time taking advantage of your own range to approach him.

Moving on to Falcon, some stuff from the Fox paragraph sorta applies, with a lot of key major differences, like for instance Falcon has fewer safe attacks. Possibly the one match up where up air is most effective against Falcon 1) being too damn tall; easily poked through deteriorated enough shields (this also applies for other moves Mega Man possess.) and 2) not the heaviest faller, but its noticeable making him more combo food for it. For edge guarding, I'd go with fair if you figure when he's about to recover, and I'm not sure if the Leaf Shield buff has made it more easier for him to be leaf stooled. (I need to use leaf shield more. I haven't lately.) Dash grab? That end lag is terrible and one could always jump over it. Predictable use of it is game over for Falcon players. Feel free to also play as aggressive especially when necessary, though lots of his moves also get stumped by pellets as well.

Rosalina could go either way, but as long as you know how to eliminate Luma quickly and edge guard Rosalina you'll make it. Down B can be deemed more or less useless to her if you as the player keep using the Metal Blade as bait. If you learn how to DITCIT, this is where it could come most in handy.

With all due respect, I heavily disagree with these besides Sonic and Villager. I agree that we beat them but the others? Not so much.

Spoiler

As a Greninja player myself, I fail to see how interrupting his specials makes this a positive MU. Aside from Water Shurikens (fully charged ones can eat through every projectile but Leaf Shield to counter-poke, punish landings, and combo into his Fair) and a little bit of Hydro Pump. His other two specials are mostly situational and aren't even part of his core gameplan to begin with, so he really shouldn't be using them much in the first place. Yes, Greninja is a fast faller, but so is Mega Man, and Mega Man is not only a fast faller, but he's a heavyweight character too and is vulnerable to getting combo'd moreso than most. And do you like combos? Cos I do, and especially compared to Mega Man, Greninja's combo game is AWESOME. I'm even inclined to say he has some of the better combos of anyone in the game, at least top 10 in terms of comboing alone.

Nair > Fsmash/Jab
Nair >Dtilt > Dash Grab, Uthrow > Uair
Dash Attack > Fair, sometimes Uair can work too
Nair > Usmash
Uthrow > Uair
Uair spike > Dsmash/Fsmash (if you read it, you can tech it though)
Charged WS > Fair
Dtilt > Usmash
Utilt > Usmash/Uair/Bair, Utilt > Uair being a kill setup even
Dthrow > Fair (its a kill combo now as of this recent patch and a true combo at that)

Certainly more damaging than anything Mega Man can do. In addition to that his approaching moveset isn't the best but he has the mobility to get around lemons and his Fair and Nair (the latter being safe on block if spaced, the former comboing into a lot of things on hit). Lemons do harass him but he has ways around them, and he's got the edge when it comes to KOing with more kill setups and good baits for air dodging. Really, I don't see this being a bad matchup for him: Enough speed to manuever around your projectiles, decent kill moves, a projectile that can counter attack yours, and deals a more damage than Mega Man in general. As a co-main of both characters , I honestly feel that this is a mostly even MU but I'm actually gonna call it 45:55, Greninja's favor. If you're fighting Greninja's who are over-reliant on specials, you're probably playing bad Greninjas. You do win the neutral game, but when it comes to punishing you have to do A LOT to keep up with him damage-wise.

Spoiler

I definitely disagree that is a positive MU, I think its clearly in Falcon's favor and even worse than Greninja. Just like with Greninja, you can make it a bit hard for him to approach in neutral, but once he finally gets in things can really suck, and you usually won't deal more than around 12% before you get hit. He has multiple ways to approach and it becomes a game of rock paper scissors, a good falcon can just take lemons to the face and use one of the following: dash grab, dash attack (which has a disjointed hitbox and leads into Uair), shorthop Uair, and shorthop bair. If you guess wrong on what he does, you're eating a bigger punishment than he would if he guesses incorrectly. Dash attack in particular is stupid good, beats out or clanks with Metal Blades, clanks or beats Slide/Dtilt, and outright destroys top spin, your saving graces against it being lemons and shielding. Leaf Shield can stop his dash grabs sometimes, but he can hit you out of it pretty easily so it ain't as useful as one might hope. You're not wrong about him being a fast faller, but again you can't ignore that so are you, and he too does 2x more damage with a better combo game. At low %, Dthrow to fair isn't even safe on hit against him since Fair lacks knockback & doesn't have much hitstun and puts him right in front of you, where he can counterattack with Uair or Jab right after your fair; so its not really a good option below 40% and it doesn't en come close to the combos he can do. RAR Bair and Usmash frame traps are okayish against him, though. And up close, his jab is just too good, both 3 hit and rapid jab, and he can even punch out all of your projectiles except Fsmash (which is way too easily punished on reaction) and sometimes even leaf shield. Although Falcon has a generally crappy recovery, gimping him with Mega Man is harder than it looks since you have to hit him multiple times before he really dies and you usually won't even have dealt enough damage to him from neutral to knock him far away enough offstage anyway due to MM's low damage output. You can leafstool if he recovers low or z-drop metal blade, but he can mix up his recovery with SideB to get around that. You can use Dair, but he can adjust his air movement pretty well so its hard to hit him with it. Meanwhile, if he guesses your recovery attempt or ledge get up just once, you die! Just like Greninja, you easily win neutral but you don't nearly as hard enough to catch up, and things will really suck if you don't manage to gimp him or stay in a lead. Definitely not a good MU for us, I think its 40:60 in his favor and probably Mega's worst MU behind Sheik and Mario.

I dunno. To say that his only real bad MUs at a high level are is a pretty darn bold claim. While I do personally think mega man is underrated and a low-high tier character, I feel that you are either underestimating what these (and other characters) are capable of, or you're maybe giving him a bit too much credit. I could go on with the others you mentioned, but I'm a little too tired and burnt out from these walls of text to continue typing atm.

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

With all due respect, I heavily disagree with these besides Sonic and Villager. I agree that we beat them but the others? Not so much.

Spoiler

As a Greninja player myself, I fail to see how interrupting his specials makes this a positive MU. Aside from Water Shurikens (fully charged ones can eat through every projectile but Leaf Shield to counter-poke, punish landings, and combo into his Fair) and a little bit of Hydro Pump. His other two specials are mostly situational and aren't even part of his core gameplan to begin with, so he really shouldn't be using them much in the first place. Yes, Greninja is a fast faller, but so is Mega Man, and Mega Man is not only a fast faller, but he's a heavyweight character too and is vulnerable to getting combo'd moreso than most. And do you like combos? Cos I do, and especially compared to Mega Man, Greninja's combo game is AWESOME. I'm even inclined to say he has some of the better combos of anyone in the game, at least top 10 in terms of comboing alone.

Nair > Fsmash/Jab
Nair >Dtilt > Dash Grab, Uthrow > Uair
Dash Attack > Fair, sometimes Uair can work too
Nair > Usmash
Uthrow > Uair
Uair spike > Dsmash/Fsmash (if you read it, you can tech it though)
Charged WS > Fair
Dtilt > Usmash
Utilt > Usmash/Uair/Bair, Utilt > Uair being a kill setup even
Dthrow > Fair (its a kill combo now as of this recent patch and a true combo at that)

Certainly more damaging than anything Mega Man can do. In addition to that his approaching moveset isn't the best but he has the mobility to get around lemons and his Fair and Nair (the latter being safe on block if spaced, the former comboing into a lot of things on hit). Lemons do harass him but he has ways around them, and he's got the edge when it comes to KOing with more kill setups and good baits for air dodging. Really, I don't see this being a bad matchup for him: Enough speed to manuever around your projectiles, decent kill moves, a projectile that can counter attack yours, and deals a more damage than Mega Man in general. As a co-main of both characters , I honestly feel that this is a mostly even MU but I'm actually gonna call it 45:55, Greninja's favor. If you're fighting Greninja's who are over-reliant on specials, you're probably playing bad Greninjas. You do win the neutral game, but when it comes to punishing you have to do A LOT to keep up with him damage-wise.

Spoiler

I definitely disagree that is a positive MU, I think its clearly in Falcon's favor and even worse than Greninja. Just like with Greninja, you can make it a bit hard for him to approach in neutral, but once he finally gets in things can really suck, and you usually won't deal more than around 12% before you get hit. He has multiple ways to approach and it becomes a game of rock paper scissors, a good falcon can just take lemons to the face and use one of the following: dash grab, dash attack (which has a disjointed hitbox and leads into Uair), shorthop Uair, and shorthop bair. If you guess wrong on what he does, you're eating a bigger punishment than he would if he guesses incorrectly. Dash attack in particular is stupid good, beats out or clanks with Metal Blades, clanks or beats Slide/Dtilt, and outright destroys top spin, your saving graces against it being lemons and shielding. Leaf Shield can stop his dash grabs sometimes, but he can hit you out of it pretty easily so it ain't as useful as one might hope. You're not wrong about him being a fast faller, but again you can't ignore that so are you, and he too does 2x more damage with a better combo game. At low %, Dthrow to fair isn't even safe on hit against him since Fair lacks knockback & doesn't have much hitstun and puts him right in front of you, where he can counterattack with Uair or Jab right after your fair; so its not really a good option below 40% and it doesn't en come close to the combos he can do. RAR Bair and Usmash frame traps are okayish against him, though. And up close, his jab is just too good, both 3 hit and rapid jab, and he can even punch out all of your projectiles except Fsmash (which is way too easily punished on reaction) and sometimes even leaf shield. Although Falcon has a generally crappy recovery, gimping him with Mega Man is harder than it looks since you have to hit him multiple times before he really dies and you usually won't even have dealt enough damage to him from neutral to knock him far away enough offstage anyway due to MM's low damage output. You can leafstool if he recovers low or z-drop metal blade, but he can mix up his recovery with SideB to get around that. You can use Dair, but he can adjust his air movement pretty well so its hard to hit him with it. Meanwhile, if he guesses your recovery attempt or ledge get up just once, you die! Just like Greninja, you easily win neutral but you don't nearly as hard enough to catch up, and things will really suck if you don't manage to gimp him or stay in a lead. Definitely not a good MU for us, I think its 40:60 in his favor and probably Mega's worst MU behind Sheik and Mario.

I dunno. To say that his only real bad MUs at a high level are is a pretty darn bold claim. While I do personally think mega man is underrated and a low-high tier character, I feel that you are either underestimating what these (and other characters) are capable of, or you're maybe giving him a bit too much credit. I could go on with the others you mentioned, but I'm a little too tired and burnt out from these walls of text to continue typing atm.

More combo potential? But as far as I knoe he only grab with which greninja can combo is down throw and it only actually combos with ftilt, while megaman can mix dthrow

 

[Funkermonster]

More combo potential? But as far as I knoe he only grab with which greninja can combo is down throw and it only actually combos with ftilt, while megaman can mix dthrow

Lol Dthrow isn't even our main combo throw, it never was. Its Up Throw that we combo with, combos into Uair on most characters until about 60%, and against Mega Man they could probably work on him even longer due to his physics (above average weight + fast falling speed). Even if you airdodge it, if I read it I can wait out your airdodge and do a falling uair and spike you with me back down to the ground, if you fail to tech it I combo into Fsmash or Dsmash. As of this patch, dthrow still isn't our combo throw, but now that it has less endlag it can true combo into Fair around 120-130% as a kill combo, and if you try to air dodge we cans still trap it with Shadow Sneak or an Fsmash. Face a good Greninja, and he'll eat your air dodges for breakfast.


We have more combos besides the throw combos mentioned too ya know (like the ones I listed earlier). We can string from Nair, Utilt, fully charged shurikens, falling Uairs, Fair, Footstools, Dair, and Dtilt too. Meanwhile, there aren't many as many combos Mega Man has besides his dthrow stuff (which aren't all that amazing to begin with) and you have to put in a lot more work to rack up damage. You can do:

Metal Blade > Top Spin/Super Arm > Followup
Fullhop Metal Blade > Grab/Spark Shock/Mega Upper
Air Shooter > Air Shooter/Slash Claw
Leaflock (Leaf Shield + Jab Lock) > Mega Upper

Most of these aren't nearly as damaging as Greninja's, and Damage Output isn't what Mega Man's bout anyways. He's a low risk, low reward character who prefers to play in neutral most of the time conditioning opponents to do somethung dumb so he can punish with higher risk and higher rewarding moves, doing this by using moves that deal little to no damage.Tornado Hold, Danger Wrap, and Shadow Blade do give him a bit more power if customs are on though.

 

[Diamond Octobot]

Quick question : Is Airdodging faster than Rush ?
Slight edit : I meant how much faster is it. (we all know that airdodging is obviously faster)

 

[Jehtt]

Out of hitstun, you can do air dodges slightly before any other action.

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

Lol Dthrow isn't even our main combo throw, it never was. Its Up Throw that we combo with, combos into Uair on most characters until about 60%, and against Mega Man they could probably work on him even longer due to his physics (above average weight + fast falling speed). Even if you airdodge it, if I read it I can wait out your airdodge and do a falling uair and spike you with me back down to the ground, if you fail to tech it I combo into Fsmash or Dsmash. As of this patch, dthrow still isn't our combo throw, but now that it has less endlag it can true combo into Fair around 120-130% as a kill combo, and if you try to air dodge we cans still trap it with Shadow Sneak or an Fsmash. Face a good Greninja, and he'll eat your air dodges for breakfast.


We have more combos besides the throw combos mentioned too ya know (like the ones I listed earlier). We can string from Nair, Utilt, fully charged shurikens, falling Uairs, Fair, Footstools, Dair, and Dtilt too. Meanwhile, there aren't many as many combos Mega Man has besides his dthrow stuff (which aren't all that amazing to begin with) and you have to put in a lot more work to rack up damage. You can do:

Metal Blade > Top Spin/Super Arm > Followup
Fullhop Metal Blade > Grab/Spark Shock/Mega Upper
Air Shooter > Air Shooter/Slash Claw
Leaflock (Leaf Shield + Jab Lock) > Mega Upper

Most of these aren't nearly as damaging as Greninja's, and Damage Output isn't what Mega Man's bout anyways. He's a low risk, low reward character who prefers to play in neutral most of the time conditioning opponents to do somethung dumb so he can punish with higher risk and higher rewarding moves, doing this by using moves that deal little to no damage.Tornado Hold, Danger Wrap, and Shadow Blade do give him a bit more power if customs are on though.

I am talking about true combos, not reads, if the case was reading megaman can do dhrow fair uair, dash attack lemon lock uptilt, dthrow back air (even twice), ftilt nair lemon lock utilt and more...

 

[Funkermonster]

I am talking about true combos, not reads, if the case was reading megaman can do dhrow fair uair, dash attack lemon lock uptilt, dthrow back air (even twice), ftilt nair lemon lock utilt and more...

Down Throw into Fair isn't that good of a combo. It's not as damaging as Greninja's Uthrow > Uair (at least I don't think it is), and below around 40% its not even safe on hit. Fair deals very little knockback and doesn't really have enough hitstun to lead into anything else (some people think it combos into falling Uair or Dtilt, but you can just shield after the fair and block dtilt or hit him out of Fair before he can Uair), and it puts your opponent right in front of you: where you really don't want them to be as Mega Man.

Dthrow into Back Air is better, but if you're talking about only true combos, Back Air definitely does not combo into itself. Not enough hitstun for another Bair, so opponents can just air dodge the 2nd one, jump out of it, or use a combo
-breaking move with invincibility if they have one (like Mario's Super Jump Punch).

Dash Attack as a combo starter is incredibly unsafe and lets Greninja dash grab or dash attack you for free. It also has too much endlag to truly combo into anything anyways.

Also if you're talking true combos, jab locks are technically not real combos either and I'd hardly even call them reliable. Opponents can tech their landings to avoid jab locks altogether, and in higher levels of play most people are likely going to be able to tech most of your attempt.

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

Down Throw into Fair isn't that good of a combo. It's not as damaging as Greninja's Uthrow > Uair (at least I don't think it is), and below around 40% its not even safe on hit. Fair deals very little knockback and doesn't really have enough hitstun to lead into anything else (some people think it combos into falling Uair or Dtilt, but you can just shield after the fair and block dtilt or hit him out of Fair before he can Uair), and it puts your opponent right in front of you: where you really don't want them to be as Mega Man.

Dthrow into Back Air is better, but if you're talking about only true combos, Back Air definitely does not combo into itself. Not enough hitstun for another Bair, so opponents can just air dodge the 2nd one, jump out of it, or use a combo
-breaking move with invincibility if they have one (like Mario's Super Jump Punch).

Dash Attack as a combo starter is incredibly unsafe and lets Greninja dash grab or dash attack you for free. It also has too much endlag to truly combo into anything anyways.

Also if you're talking true combos, jab locks are technically not real combos either and I'd hardly even call them reliable. Opponents can tech their landings to avoid jab locks altogether, and in higher levels of play most people are likely going to be able to tech most of your attempt.

I forgot to mention dthrow (opponents airdodges) fsmash

 

[Sorichuudo]

Dthrow into Back Air is better, but if you're talking about only true combos, Back Air definitely does not combo into itself. Not enough hitstun for another Bair, so opponents can just air dodge the 2nd one, jump out of it, or use a combo
-breaking move with invincibility if they have one (like Mario's Super Jump Punch).

Is Dthrow to bair a true combo(i mean one bair, the first one)? Cause i never seem to get it right, i usually go for uair or something else.

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

Is Dthrow to bair a true combo(i mean one bair, the first one)? Cause i never seem to get it right, i usually go for uair or something else.

I think so, I think you need to RAR it