Does a lack of "true combos" hurt Brawl?

[Wenbobular]

They aren't the same thing at all, the mechanics behind why they work is completely different ...

 

[Masmasher@]

Lag cancel =/= auto cancel.

Also you can clearly tell it's a mistake for both Ganondorf's Fair and DK's Fair by how the animations have already basically ended after a full hop or double jump. They did not match the timer in their character file to the animation or their animation to the timer. Either way, it's a mistake plain and simple and the game is littered with things like this in other character files and even in gameplay mechanics as a whole.

^this

also the correct question is not why would you ever not want to l cancel but how does l cancel help you

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtnRo3szs4A

skip to 2:04 and watch the very end

l cancel can help offense and is to counter the angling of the shield
and like earlier if you dont do it you'll get *****. as seen in the vid.

as for subject yes i think lack of combos hurt brawl. matchups would be better if there was ways you could gurauntee a more damaging punish. matches are hit and run.
lack of hitstun hurts brawl period. alot of stuff is neglible (well not auto grab ledges and tripping) but other then that i would play brawl if it had hitstun.
and i would play as sonic... all day

also lack of a followup doesnt make anything deeper, it makes things more frustrating


but...thats why i cant wait for project m lmao

Also that makoto avatar doesnt get old

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Bias is having an opinion. You're biased as well. If you don't know it, then you're the ignorant one.

Never denied I favor Brawl over Melee.

I'll still point out BS about either game when someone posts it, instead of posting some sided posts that clearly ignore certain aspects.

You can have less bias or have more, having more bias is more ignorance. Your post is full of a lot of bias, therefore more ignorant.

 

[Big-Cat]

Missed the point. Knowing the stage is very important, just like knowing your character and the match-ups. If you won because of the stage, good job. Either your opponent couldn't take the stage or you used it better. The win is justified and uses skill.

I'm not going to argue this one because it's pretty much true, but only to a certain extent.

Then, deal with it. The stage is a part of the game, so you have to learn it. Only n00bs whine and complain about it

What? Am I not allowed to hate it even if I'm not a noob? You're getting really annoying with the way you take people's opinions.

Starcraft is the the biggest competitive videogame. Smash needs to follow the example of the bigger game. Also, I didn't mention Malstrom. Why bring it up.

You've never brought it up in the past, and I know for a fact that he adores that game. I figured you brought it up since you read his stuff. Anyway, Starcraft may be the bigger game, but remember it's a RTS, not a fighter. What may apply to one genre may not be as great when adapted for another genre.

Not only that, but can you tell me how Starcraft's stages are designed when it comes to traps and other hazards?

@Masmash@
Why does everyone who defends L-Canceling always talk about what it lets you do? It doesn't make things less deep if you got rid of all the landing lag from aerials (or make it like SFIV where the landing recovery is 3 frames no matter what).

Ugh... It's worse than bringing tech skill up on SRK.

I still agree with the main subject at hand though.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

Landing lag being 3 frames sounds cool and funny. Too bad it isn't likely going to happen in Smash.

As for L-Cancelling, these OLD OLD OLD quotes sum up what they're trying to say while defend it, or should say.

Characters that are slow and laggy are now at an even greater disadvantage versus those with fast aerials with little lag. Sure, a lot of aerials can be auto-canceled but it's very situational, especially when it comes to pressure or approach. L-canceling gave many more characters many more options for approach and shieldpressure.

Its removal shifted the balanced towards a select few like Marth, Toon Link and Pikmin & Olimar in terms of shield pressure and approach. Characters like Ganondorf and Yoshi are screwed because of the way their aerials work. With L-canceling, it would've been more balanced, however.

L-canceling made unplayable characters playable.

I.T.P., L-cancelling helped heavier, slower characters more than the absence of it in Brawl. Faster characters can still get hits off quicker than slower chars, with or without L-cancelling. At least with it, they still had less restricted movement.

Ask any Melee pro that mained a slower char in Melee. Gimpyfish will tell you that besides Bowser's obvious stats increase, it's still insubstantial because he's still bogged down with landing lag on all his SH'd aerials.

I can tell you from 1st-hand experience that Kirby, although being a better all-around character, still suffers from not being able to quickly SHFFL aerials.

If Sakurai had been smart, he'd dumbed the game down and introduced new options to make up for the lost ones.

How the hell are you going to hit people as Ganondorf?! He's cataclysmically unsafe without L-canceling. He can't pressure. He can't even approach (no aerials into jab!). So he'll be forced to just sit around and, um, wait for the opponent to leave a huge gaping window of opportunity and then hit them?

Meanwhile, Sheik can just run around and spam tilts, needles and fast aerials (spaced) just like she used to.

Erm, what? :/ You say that L-canceling should only be reserved for certain characters or moves while Sakurai intentionally enabled almost every aerial and character to be able to L-cancel? >_> GW's bair and uair are the sole exception here, which further proves my point and makes yours seem quite, uhm, ridiculous to say the least.

 

[Shadic]

Never denied I favor Brawl over Melee.

But you never stated it. I never denied my preference - I figure mine was actually quite upfront.

You can have less bias or have more, having more bias is more ignorance. Your post is full of a lot of bias, therefore more ignorant.

...No.

 

[Strong Badam]

You can have less bias or have more, having more bias is more ignorance. Your post is full of a lot of bias, therefore more ignorant.

This assumes that your assessment of the amount of bias in a post or a person is itself objective and not subject to bias, which weakens your argument substantially.

 

[GHNeko]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzwU339O3kE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Kg0o2j7ENY&feature=related


lololololololol

 

[Teh Future]

in this topic, melee players talk about how they don't understand brawl mechanics

 

[leafgreen386]

You can have less bias or have more, having more bias is more ignorance. Your post is full of a lot of bias, therefore more ignorant.

Let's suppose you're right for a moment here. This would suggest that someone with absolutely no bias would be utterly and completely informed about a subject. Yet, in intelligent debates, where people do have opinions, and therefore bias, the participants involved have a very high degree of knowledge about the given subject. Someone who is well-informed can still have a very strong opinion. In fact, their opinion is likely to be made even stronger because they are well-informed. In theory, someone who understands something perfectly would have the greatest bias of anyone, because if you have a perfect understanding, you have no doubt as to whether or not you are correct. The inverse of this is someone who knows absolutely nothing about a subject; because they know absolutely nothing, they will also have absolutely no bias. While it is true that people can have both large bias and large ignorance, one does not necessarily imply the other.

 

[GHNeko]

why did you even bother leaf

 

[leafgreen386]

why did you even bother leaf

IDK. It seemed like a good idea at the time.

 

[A Pimp Named Slickback]

Never denied I favor Brawl over Melee.

I'll still point out BS about either game when someone posts it, instead of posting some sided posts that clearly ignore certain aspects.

You can have less bias or have more, having more bias is more ignorance. Your post is full of a lot of bias, therefore more ignorant.

Do we really want this person "mentoring" newcomers to this site?

And what was going through the admin's heads when they promoted this guy?

 

[Wenbobular]

in this topic, melee players talk about how they don't understand brawl mechanics

I'm kinda surprised at how many Melee players are in here really

 

[Sliq]

They are the same thing. Just that an auto cancel is a full lag cancel. (I doubt the developers made a big distinction).

No, an L-Cancel and an Auto Cancel are not the same thing. You are silly.

 

[shanus]

"Does a lack of true combos hurt Brawl?"

Yes.


/endtopic.

 

[Black Mantis]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzwU339O3kE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Kg0o2j7ENY&feature=related


lololololololol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fn_7KAv66Kg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xhXwtH0C4A&feature=related

 

[shanus]

The first stock of jiggs v falco was more exciting than anything in that "combo" video you posted.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIA2dDzcmno (end is AMAZING)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSH9sdViWk0 (claptrap WTFamazing)

Sorry but the entertainment value of melee combo videos is infinitely better than brawl.

 

[Deleted member]

I'll still point out BS about either game when someone posts it, instead of posting some sided posts that clearly ignore certain aspects.

You can have less bias or have more, having more bias is more ignorance. Your post is full of a lot of bias, therefore more ignorant.

You'll recall I called you out for ignoring several of my statements, or just making statements that are objectively and factually incorrect.

Bias and ignorance are largely independent, I have no idea how you managed to falsely correlate the two.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

But you never stated it. I never denied my preference - I figure mine was actually quite upfront.

I think I stated it earlier in this thread, but hey I could be wrong.

...No.

Yes.

This assumes that your assessment of the amount of bias in a post or a person is itself objective and not subject to bias, which weakens your argument substantially.

This is true.

I'll still base my assessment on what he left out and focused on.

Let's suppose you're right for a moment here. This would suggest that someone with absolutely no bias would be utterly and completely informed about a subject. Yet, in intelligent debates, where people do have opinions, and therefore bias, the participants involved have a very high degree of knowledge about the given subject. Someone who is well-informed can still have a very strong opinion. In fact, their opinion is likely to be made even stronger because they are well-informed. In theory, someone who understands something perfectly would have the greatest bias of anyone, because if you have a perfect understanding, you have no doubt as to whether or not you are correct. The inverse of this is someone who knows absolutely nothing about a subject; because they know absolutely nothing, they will also have absolutely no bias. While it is true that people can have both large bias and large ignorance, one does not necessarily imply the other.

I think I may be using the work ignorance in the wrong light people here are using it.

When I think ignorance, I think of something that ignores aspects that are pros to something. Only to focus on the cons or the very limited pros. That is the general gist of how his post came off. He is informed about this topic, not gonna deny that.

Do we really want this person "mentoring" newcomers to this site?

And what was going through the admin's heads when they promoted this guy?

Nice baiting.

The first stock of jiggs v falco was more exciting than anything in that "combo" video you posted.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIA2dDzcmno (end is AMAZING)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSH9sdViWk0 (claptrap WTFamazing)

Sorry but the entertainment value of melee combo videos is infinitely better than brawl.

Nah, Mr. R made it all the more enjoyable.

You'll recall I called you out for ignoring several of my statements, or just making statements that are objectively and factually incorrect.

Bias and ignorance are largely independent, I have no idea how you managed to falsely correlate the two.

If I recall I answered all of your posts. If your not satisfied with a post I made before, say it again and I'll address it.

 

[shanus]

hey I could be wrong.

When I think ignorance, I think of something that ignores aspects that are pros to something.

Why yes, yes you are.
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Also, way to ignore the meat of my post on those combo vids which are far superior to any brawl combo vid on the market.

 

[Revven]

I think I may be using the work ignorance in the wrong light people here are using it.

When I think ignorance, I think of something that ignores aspects that are pros to something. Only to focus on the cons or the very limited pros. That is the general gist of how his post came off.

*Facepalm*

You can't bend a word into your favor if you're using it incorrectly. That's not how English works, it's either you're using the word correctly or incorrectly and in this case it's incorrectly. Ignorance is not the proper word to describe someone like that.

I'm not going to be your English teacher and tell you what you should be using. Rather, it's far more entertaining to see you continually flub up about a word that has only one meaning.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Why yes, yes you are.
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Also, way to ignore the meat of my post on those combo vids which are far superior to any brawl combo vid on the market.

I focused on the part I bolded.

As for the vids, meh. I liked Beleive in the Legend more.

*Facepalm*

You can't bend a word into your favor if you're using it incorrectly. That's not how English works, it's either you're using the word correctly or incorrectly and in this case it's incorrectly. Ignorance is not the proper word to describe someone like that.

I'm not going to be your English teacher and tell you what you should be using. Rather, it's far more entertaining to see you continually flub up about a word that has only one meaning.

Well if I used a word wrong, oh well.

 

[Black Mantis]

Way to be bias Shanus.
That player in melee camped and you still favor the melee vid.
Hypocrisy much?

 

[shanus]

Way to be bias Shanus.
That player in melee camped and you still favor the melee vid.
Hypocrisy much?

Notice how I said "the first stock"

When I tried to play brawl for around 6 months or so, it never had the same fun aspect as melee did. I could play melee for 5 hours straight and not be bored. With brawl, I'd max out in a hour.

Calling someone biased doesn't really alter the argument, either. I'm biased in favor of melee, because I like to have fun. I don't even get how I'm being hypocritical. I acknowledge I favor melee over brawl. Where is the hypocrisy?

At least if someone is camping me in melee, I can practice tech skill. There's nothing to do on your own in brawl.

 

[Black Mantis]

The hypocrisy is that most melee players bash brawl for being campy and defensive, but when people play campy and defensive (which is just is prevalent and powerful in brawl) in melee they come up with every legitimate excuse such as
"those players sucked"
"bad stage choice"
(see pinkshinobi vs rockcrock)

That's the hypocrisy. Fighting games don't need to be defined by combos in order to become popular. Street fighter 4 is a prime example of this. You can honestly camp harder in that game than in both melee and brawl. The maker of the game himself said that 4's system isn't based around combos. Yet street fighter 4 is still popular with all of these same "problems" as brawl.

 

[JOE!]

At least if someone is camping me in melee, I can practice tech skill. There's nothing to do on your own in brawl.

why should there be if it's a multi-player game?

And Mantis, I have a whole lulzy Blog about the whole combos thingy making/breaking fighters...

 

[Black Mantis]

I once got timed out by an akuma on Xbox Live.

Cody vs akuma is gay.

 

[shanus]

The hypocrisy is that most melee players bash brawl for being campy and defensive, but when people play campy and defensive (which is just is prevalent and powerful in brawl) in melee they come up with every legitimate excuse such as
"those players sucked"
"bad stage choice"
(see pinkshinobi vs rockcrock)

That's the hypocrisy. Fighting games don't need to be defined by combos in order to become popular. Street fighter 4 is a prime example of this. You can honestly camp harder in that game than in both melee and brawl. The maker of the game himself said that 4's system isn't based around combos. Yet street fighter 4 is still popular with all of these same "problems" as brawl.

Did I ever make one of those claims?

Nope.


You just put words in my mouth and called me a hypocrite. I should try that when I have arguments.


My argument: Brawl is so slow. So slow that I don't have fun playing it. If I did have fun playing brawl, I wouldn't have left the brawl scene. The problem is this: Brawl and Melee have IDENTICAL hitstun constants (0.40). Compound this with higher lag moves with no form of lag canceling during non-AC windows, lower overall gravity, decreased moves with action-specific IASA, low shieldstun and ledge occupancy duration and you have an obvious recipe for a defensive game with little offensive encouragement. The changes themselves DEFINE brawl to be a defensive game. To many of the hardcore smash fanatics, this is the real reason behind their distaste for brawl. These changes disable true combos, and no combo video you link me really contains any at all. There is no question that melee has more offensive potential than brawl does, and thats why it shines in both entertainment value and fun, at least in my opinion.

Some players enjoy the defensive qualities of brawl, but not I, nor many others do. You do, which is fine with me, as everyone is entitled to do whatever they have fun with.

There's claims for you now which are hard facts:
-Identical hitstun constants between brawl and melee, with brawl providing a vertical velocity boost constant which further disables comboing. Equal hitstun in a slower game means no combos.
-Lower gravity
-Higher lag on moves and no option to decrease landing lags when not in autocancel windows
-Decreased use of action-specific IASA
-Significantly decreased shieldstun
-Airdodge with only 2-4fr of landlag and is usable out of tumble decreases offensive options considerably
-Decreased Ledge occupancy

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I really don't think punishing a 2-4 frame window on landing lag from an airdodge is hard. Even when I'm not playing Lucario.

 

[Big-Cat]

The hypocrisy is that most melee players bash brawl for being campy and defensive, but when people play campy and defensive (which is just is prevalent and powerful in brawl) in melee they come up with every legitimate excuse such as
"those players sucked"
"bad stage choice"
(see pinkshinobi vs rockcrock)

That's the hypocrisy. Fighting games don't need to be defined by combos in order to become popular. Street fighter 4 is a prime example of this. You can honestly camp harder in that game than in both melee and brawl. The maker of the game himself said that 4's system isn't based around combos. Yet street fighter 4 is still popular with all of these same "problems" as brawl.

After my nearly two years in Street Fighter, I've come to see that camping (otherwise known as zoning in other circles) isn't necessarily a bad thing. Just a thought there.

And while you can camp/zone to Hell (i.e. Dhalsim and Guile) in Street Fighter IV, there are ways to get around that wall of defense such as attacks that go through fireballs (Spin Knuckle, EX Neckbreaker, etc.) and attacks that let the character get in via invincibility (EX Spiral Arrow and EX Habanero Dash). Obviousy, there is a huge problem if not every character has a way around that defensive line.

Then, there is, as mentioned, the risk and reward involved getting in. Take Viper and El Fuerte, if they can get in, they can land a knockdown and start their okizeme mixups, but they're hindered by somewhat predictable methods of getting in (high jump and wall jump respectively) and they have to use meter to rack up damage/get in. Another example is Ibuki, who can zone with her Kunai, can bait a Dhalsim into using j.HP and countering that with her Raida to knock him down.

And yes, it's true that SFIV isn't combo heavy like say Guilty Gear or BlazBlue, but it retains the fundamentals of fighting games such as footsies, a concept that was more or less killed with random tripping in Brawl.

 

[shanus]

I really don't think punishing a 2-4 frame window on landing lag from an airdodge is hard. Even when I'm not playing Lucario.

Yet again, scraping the bottom of the barrel to try and make an argument.

I didn't know you can reliably punish all empty landings or lag from an AC'd move because they have the same landlag as a airdodge. I guess your a god among men!

 

[Revven]

Did I ever make one of those claims?

Nope.


You just put words in my mouth and called me a hypocrite. I should try that when I have arguments.


My argument: Brawl is so slow. So slow that I don't have fun playing it. If I did have fun playing brawl, I wouldn't have left the brawl scene. The problem is this: Brawl and Melee have IDENTICAL hitstun constants (0.40). Compound this with higher lag moves with no form of lag canceling during non-AC windows, lower overall gravity, decreased moves with action-specific IASA, low shieldstun and ledge occupancy duration and you have an obvious recipe for a defensive game with little offensive encouragement. The changes themselves DEFINE brawl to be a defensive game. To many of the hardcore smash fanatics, this is the real reason behind their distaste for brawl. These changes disable true combos, and no combo video you link me really contains any at all. There is no question that melee has more offensive potential than brawl does, and thats why it shines in both entertainment value and fun, at least in my opinion.

Some players enjoy the defensive qualities of brawl, but not I, nor many others do. You do, which is fine with me, as everyone is entitled to do whatever they have fun with.

There's claims for you now which are hard facts:
-Identical hitstun constants between brawl and melee, with brawl providing a vertical velocity boost constant which further disables comboing. Equal hitstun in a slower game means no combos.
-Lower gravity
-Higher lag on moves and no option to decrease landing lags when not in autocancel windows
-Decreased use of action-specific IASA
-Significantly decreased shieldstun
-Airdodge with only 2-4fr of landlag and is usable out of tumble decreases offensive options considerably
-Decreased Ledge occupancy

+tech window being ****ed up due to nobody checking the coding properly before releasing the game thus not having a very deep techchasing game since... nobody ever techs in Brawl because of the window and how unsafe and slow techrolls/techstands are.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

I forgot to answer the OP.

Yes, the lack of combos does hurt Brawl, but IMO, Brawl's failure to improve on character balance hurts more.

Especially egrigous when you consider the time they had to balance this game and that they spent most of the time making the game anti-competitive and making the SSE unlike the prevous 2 games.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Yet again, scraping the bottom of the barrel to try and make an argument.

I didn't know you can reliably punish all empty landings or lag from an AC'd move because they have the same landlag as a airdodge. I guess your a god among men!

I'm, sorry what? Lucario's build a lot of their game on punishing spot dodges and air dodges, lingering hitboxes helps.

A lot of the time I jab>jab>grab to try and set-up a spot dodge habit, that way jab>jab>Shutter stepped Fsmash will nail them when they try a spot dodge to avoid a grab. IF someone tries to airdodge past, either fall with them and wait, then throw a move out or bait it, Like with Lucario Uair then Dair them as they try to fall past.

If they are airdodging away from you, well chances chances are you couldn't punish them anyways from the air even if they couldn't. If your on the ground you can simply follow them on the ground, even if they try a mix-up like Snake's will with Breversed Grenade pulls, you can still react and follow this.

If airdodges couldn't be punished at all and were near impossible to punish, then you would have something here. But they aren't, Brawl players adapted to learn how air dodges worked and learned how to deal with them.

Of course I can't punish everything, I'm not a god, I'm human.

I forgot to answer the OP.

Yes, the lack of combos does hurt Brawl, but IMO, Brawl's failure to improve on character balance hurts more.

Especially egrigous when you consider the time they had to balance this game and that they spent most of the time making the game anti-competitive and making the SSE unlike the prevous 2 games.

MLG Dallas had 12 different characters get top 16...and it's worse balanced than Melee?

And surprise, Smash was never meant to be made as a competitive game.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

Yay Sonic.
The thing is, when it happens a bit more often with the same players, like say Kage(He beat Mango at one point even and places top 12 at quite a few nationals with Ganon) I'll consider it more.

I'll wait before passing judgement on that as it might be a one hit wonder like with Big Lou(what happened to him?)

So I don't contradict myself, I'll also wait for Axe's pika to show up more often.

Pity this wasn't showing when I decided to quit......

I know it wasn't meant to be competitive. That doesn't mean that it's a wise idea to take time out of development to make it ant-competitive.

 

[Black Mantis]

Woah yoshi big Lou *****. He is definitely not a 1 hit wonder.
He's the best player in Georgia and probably the best Luigi.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Big lou lost to a Krystedez at MLG Dallas and someone else.

I know it wasn't meant to be competitive. That doesn't mean that it's a wise idea to take time out of development to make it ant-competitive.

Tripping was dumb, that I agree with.

With gameplay I don't think it was a bad idea to take time off for the non gameplay elements like music, custom stages, SSE, etc.

One of my gripes with a lot of fighting games is the fact the stories, One player campaigns, ultimately suck. Street Fighter 4's is nothing more but playing against randomly selected characters until you get to the rival character and then Seth.

Smash has this, but it also has Adventure mode/SSE, All star mode, challenges, stadium, etc. Brawl improved on adventure mode quite a bit to a point where I enjoyed a one player story mode in a fighting game, only other game to get me to semi like it was Melty Blood.

I don't think this is a bad thing since game play is still able to be played at a competitive level. For it to be anti-competitive, it would have to be random elements or overcentralizing characters/tactics.

People and a community are ultimately are the main driving force behind competition, they pick the medium of which they choose to play. Like, I think Marvel vs Capcom 2 is terrible, but what I think about it ultimately doesn't matter if the people or the community chooses to come together and play on that medium.

People with an interest to come together and play it are what imo makes a game, because they are enjoy it and like coming together.

 

[Deleted member]

I'll wait before passing judgement on that as it might be a one hit wonder like with Big Lou(what happened to him?)

When I talk to him about his lower placements in recent MLGs, he says bracket **** by characters who easily counter Luigi and that his opponents who he's played before have learned the match up. For this, he's decided to pick up MK ... >_>

Also he's the best Luigi in the world as well as the best player in GA.



Lastly, this thread is so funny. All these people who play Brawl and know absolutely nothing about Melee and toss out slanderous insults to the game is lol. It really seems from my experience that Brawl players as a general category

Spoiler

(BROAD CATEGORICAL GENERALIZATION)

are more biased because they feel like they need to justify Brawl's existence and prevalence as a fighting game against Melee players who simply just don't like the game at all.

However, the good and decent Brawl players in my state are able to have good, civil, and non biased discussion with the Melee players about the flaws and strengths of both games over breakfast at 2 AM at IHOP after our tournies.

 

[JOE!]

you have IHOPs that are open at 2am?