Do you feel the Top Tiers were nerfed to a satisfactory level?

[JayTheUnseen]

In 3.5,of course.I have realized,due to this post of Rhubarbo's( found halfway down the page ),that nerfing the Melee greats is tricky because they have a well-known,loved playstyle,and even small nerfs could effect their enjoyment and/or destroy what the character is.Removing the shine combos of Fox would nerf him,yes;but his character would be radically different.

I feel that the PM devs have to nerf the greats,but not take away too much from who they are,no matter what waves this might create.3.5 has already caused unrest due to removing tools that may have been what a player enjoyed most about a character,and why should the greats be invincible to this?Their status and support in Melee?

PM should be for PM players,I feel,not Melee players.If Melee players looking to PM cannot stand the greats being pegged down,shouldn't they just stick to Melee?Or do they feel everyone should have the power of the greats?I disagree with this-things will become ridiculous if so.

The greats should be taken down,but have they been already?I don't know much about PM really,so say what you think.

 

[Zujx]

Coming from someone who played a lot of melee I think that's a relatively difficult question to answer but, I would say for the most part yes.

To an certain extent I completely agree with you P:M is a different game and I expect tweaks to melees top tiers. I have no problem with adapting to small changes. I'm 100% with the overall design goal of making a balanced game where everyone is viable at a competitive level.

I think are harder question to answer to is:
Are some changes really necessary with all the newly buffed characters having tools to deal with them?
to that question I would answer I have no idea.

 

[Paquito]

Devs have to be really careful about nerfs, especially when game updates are pretty rare. What seems like a mild nerf on paper could end up having an immense impact on the game's meta, often in ways that can't be predicted.

Given Project M's slow release schedule, a series of mild nerfs is definitely the right way to balance over-powered characters.

 

[MagnesD3]

PM changes should be meant for pm players not melee ones. As for the top tier nerfs question, who knows its way too soon to tell anything.

 

[JayTheUnseen]

@MagnesD3
Yes,you are definitely right.OK,so I made this topic too soon. Plus it won't be too helpful to the PM devs either,since they're taking a break right now.

@Paquito
Yes,that's a good point.That's probably the best way to go about it.

@Zujx
That is true.At this point we actually can't be sure whether the grates are at a fair level or not(or everyone else is near their level.)
However I don't think everyone should be really powerful to balance things out.They need a level playing field between that that everyone is on.

 

[Mean Green]

I like pie

 

[kaizo13]

"PM should be for PM players, not Melee players"

i'm sorry but what kind of BS logic is that?
it's comments like these that seperate the community.

....and why do people keep bringing up "why should the Melee top tiers be immune to nerfs?"
have you not been paying attention? Spacies were nerfed a year ago in 3.0, and now yet again in 3.5

 

[DrinkingFood]

Wow such huge nerfs they got! Laser damage decaying, shine losing 1 frame of invincibility, and usmash killing 10% later/losing priority on dair are all nerfs on the scale MewTwo's loss of a huge non-commital approach option, losing 15% of his tail, and slowing down his space controlling projectile; or Diddy's nerfs, who lost a projectile, lost the two best properties of his dash attack, lost over 1/2 his recovery distance, and lost a kill throw. Yep, spacie nerfs so far are definitely relevant to bring up in light of the nerfs the other PM top tiers got. [/sarcasm]

 

[Vashimus]

No, he's right. PM should be designed with PM players in mind -- the ones actually playing the game -- rather than appealing to Melee players. If they weren't going to migrate over before, they're not going to do it ever, so just focus on the fanbase you have now.

And please, worse characters have received more nerfs in single updates than Fox and Falco have in their entire PM careers.

 

[PlateProp]

Personally, I feel as if Fox/Shiek/Marth should be brought down a tad bit more, while Falco should just recieve a new design. All 4 are kind of boring to play against, but Falco is the worst offender.

I still don't get why it's okay for Falco to be centralized pn Lasers, Shine and Dair, while everyone else that has tools as centralizing as those has them removed or changed. Or why it's okay for the two spacies to have tools to handle pretty much anything but it's not for the rest of the cast.

 

[Strong Badam]

"PM should be for PM players, not Melee players"

i'm sorry but kind of BS logic is that?
it's comments like these that seperate the community.

....and why do people keep bringing up "why should the Melee top tiers be immune to nerfs?"
have you not been paying attention? Spacies were nerfed a year ago in 3.0, and now yet again in 3.5

were nerfed in 2.6, not 3.0.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

As 3.5's nerfs sank in and I looked at the nerfs overall, the changes made sense and I was fine with them, barring the fact that Fox Falco and Marth are almost completely untouched from melee. I can deal with a lot of characters having neutral game options toned down, but how come Fox is still allowed to have the best neutral game? Also, the argument for changes like QAC and other ridiculous options in neutral being taken out across the board is that they are taken out across the board. Even with moves like those, a lot of short range characters struggled greatly with marth. Now that those options are taken away, they may be able to better deal with characters like Mewtwo, but what about marth? Does his neutral game not get to be nerfed too so these characters can deal with the melee tops?

That is my only remaining gripe with the 3.5 changes. I know this debate has been made 1000's of times. I just find it frustrating that characters who struggled against melee tops like fox or marth and only got neutral nerfs will now do even worse because not everyone was nerfed evenly, just the Brawl and Melee low tiers were. I get people love these characters, but at some point you have to say enough is enough and do something. I do agree that every change needs to be very carefully made. But from what I see, either characters get really good neutral options to deal with melee high tiers for a patch before they are taken away, we have an unbalanced game, or we make more significant adjustments to melee tops.

As for the "PM should be made for PM players" comment, its a frustrating situation. On one hand, some fringe players (the ones that normally play melee, also enter PM and rely on melee smarts) aren't totally committed to Project M and will leave if their character is changed one bit. That doesn't make them any less of a player. At the same time, for the tradition, should we keep a character around and sacrifice game balance because of it? I think no. People who play non-melee tops deal with changes to their characters all the time; why is it so wrong to want fair treatment? Its just a frustrating situation where people who don't play melee tops are tired of having their characters being changed while melee tops get by without significant changes. Also, we shouldn't go and try to make divisions in any part of the smash community much less in "our" game. TL;DR: awkward situation, tough to deal with, but we shouldn't alienate a group of the userbase with statements like that.

 

[mimgrim]

Personally, I feel as if Fox/Shiek/Marth should be brought down a tad bit more, while Falco should just recieve a new design. All 4 are kind of boring to play against, but Falco is the worst offender.

I still don't get why it's okay for Falco to be centralized pn Lasers, Shine and Dair, while everyone else that has tools as centralizing as those has them removed or changed. Or why it's okay for the two spacies to have tools to handle pretty much anything but it's not for the rest of the cast.

Why Sheik? I know it isn't because of me, seeing as I'm pretty bad, and I have yet to see anyone else having played Sheik around here, maybeI just haven;t met them yet.

I at least understand, even if I don't entirely agree, why you have your thoughts on the other 3. But I don't understand why Sheik.

 

[PlateProp]

Why Sheik? I know it isn't because of me, seeing as I'm pretty bad, and I have yet to see anyone else having played Sheik around here, maybeI just haven;t met them yet.

I at least understand, even if I don't entirely agree, why you have your thoughts on the other 3. But I don't understand why Sheik.

From what i've seen of Shiek and played against, she just gives me that 3.02 Lucas vibe(Not to the same extent though.)

And I'm not exactly sure what it is, I just find playing against them extremely boring 3/4ths of the time. There are a few players I enjoy playing against in these matchups but for the most part I don't.

 

[Ganondalf]

Devs have to be really careful about nerfs, especially when game updates are pretty rare. What seems like a mild nerf on paper could end up having an immense impact on the game's meta, often in ways that can't be predicted.

Given Project M's slow release schedule, a series of mild nerfs is definitely the right way to balance over-powered characters.

I agree with this. A major change could cause a major upset, which would cause panic un-nerfs and that may cause etc etc etc

I'd like to see the spacies knocked down a peg or two. In fact, many characters knocked down. Yoshi should be SSS tier. Jigglypuff in SS tier along with Dedede and Samus. Just to mix things up. Diddy Kong gets deleted and replaced with Dankey Kang. Lucas reverted back to Brawl version with ****ty PK Freeze.

 

[Celestis]

Ug, people are just not going to stop complaining and whining about the spacys until they completely suck will they. They are so easy to kill and combo to death. They don't do that good in tournament results, and yet the devs still gave nerfs, but only get more complaining.

You guys are like Sonic fans. Never happy no matter what the Devs do.

 

[PlateProp]

Ug, people are just not going to stop complaining and whining about the spacys until they completely suck will they. They are so easy to kill and combo to death. They don't do that good in tournament results, and yet the devs still gave nerfs, but only get more complaining.

You guys are like Sonic fans. Never happy no matter what the Devs do.

Being comboed to death isint an excuse when everyone in the game bar Puff gets comboed to death.

 

[batistabus]

I <3 nerfs.

 

[GP&B]

Fox was top 10 in 3.0 and he is most certainly top 3 now without a doubt. Most of his legitimately troublesome matchups have improved significantly for him.

 

[BlueGreenBrown]

All the people in here crying about fox and falco and ignoring wolf are hypocrites. Wolf has a very close playstyle and neutral game to both of them thanks to his new lasers and yet no one mentions him because he's a "PM" character and so he must be at a disadvantage. The fact is that there's been 10 years of people practicing spacies, maybe that's why they tend to do well against someone who just picked up 3.5 zelda and have to start from nothing.

If you guys had more experience playing against spacies maybe they wouldn't look so invincible to you (get punished harder than anyone, poor recovery, ridiculous tech skill requirements, etc.) and you could instead focus on how to exploit their weaknesses. Also, spacies are fun as hell to play against. Fast paced games with tons of 0-deaths? Yes please.

 

[Kidneyjoe]

OK, I'm get really tired of the whole "spacies get combo'd to death so they're balanced" argument. Half the ****ing cast gets combo'd to death and yet they don't get the incredible neutral game to make up for it without people whining and them getting nerfed. Why is it bad for Diddy or Lucas to be broken as **** but not Fox?

 

[PlateProp]

All the people in here crying about fox and falco and ignoring wolf are hypocrites. Wolf has a very close playstyle and neutral game to both of them thanks to his new lasers and yet no one mentions him because he's a "PM" character and so he must be at a disadvantage. The fact is that there's been 10 years of people practicing spacies, maybe that's why they tend to do well against someone who just picked up 3.5 zelda and have to start from nothing.

If you guys had more experience playing against spacies maybe they wouldn't look so invincible to you (get punished harder than anyone, poor recovery, ridiculous tech skill requirements, etc.) and you could instead focus on how to exploit their weaknesses. Also, spacies are fun as hell to play against. Fast paced games with tons of 0-deaths? Yes please.

This is such a horrible argument in a thread where everyone has reasonably presented their views.

And 0 to death combos are horrible design, they basically take away the other person's ability to play. If you want extremely fast paced games with 0 to deaths, why not play MvC3? We all know how well that game's balanced.

 

[BlueGreenBrown]

This is such a horrible argument in a thread where everyone has reasonably presented their views.

And 0 to death combos are horrible design, they basically take away the other person's ability to play. If you want extremely fast paced games with 0 to deaths, why not play MvC3? We all know how well that game's balanced.

You're only saying that because most in this thread besides StrongBad are just circle jerking that melee characters are OP and I said they aren't..

Can you explain to me what makes Marth OP and not Roy? Shiek is OP but not ZSS or Lucario? Falco and Fox but not Wolf? (note I don't think those PM characters are too strong they just play very similarly.

 

[PlateProp]

You're only saying that because most in this thread besides StrongBad are just circle jerking that melee characters are OP and I said they aren't..

Can you explain to me what makes Marth OP and not Roy? Shiek is OP but not ZSS or Lucario? Falco and Fox but not Wolf? (note I don't think those PM characters are too strong they just play very similarly.

If you took your head out of your ass and read my post you'd see that I said they only needed to be toned down a bit. Falco as well, because I know he'd never get a redesign "becuz melee" That kind of implies THAT I DONT THINK THEY'RE EXTREMELY OP.

Seriously dude, if you aren't gonna legitimately contribute to the thread other than trying to start fights, please leave.

 

[PootisKonga]

Make Fox and Falco's shines crouch cancellable like Wolf's

In all honesty, though, their shines are really my only gripe. they are way too over-centralizing to their movesets. Play Fox or Falco without ever using shine, you are almost objectively 85% worse. Play Wario without Shoulder Bash or Squirtle without Withdraw? You lose maybe half of your effectiveness if you know what other tools they have. It's ridiculous.

 

[BlueGreenBrown]

If you took your head out of your *** and read my post you'd see that I said they only needed to be toned down a bit. Falco as well, because I know he'd never get a redesign "becuz melee" That kind of implies THAT I DONT THINK THEY'RE EXTREMELY OP.

Seriously dude, if you aren't gonna legitimately contribute to the thread other than trying to start fights, please leave.

I haven't really started any fights, in fact the only thing I said that would've been offensive was say you guys were being hypocritical. And falco did get toned down, they nerfed his dair, pretty much his most important tool besides maybe shine. You never answered any of my questions in my last post, but it kind of seems like you're actually picking a fight with me here..

 

[BlueGreenBrown]

Make Fox and Falco's shines crouch cancellable like Wolf's

In all honesty, though, their shines are really my only gripe. they are way too over-centralizing to their movesets. Play Fox or Falco without ever using shine, you are almost objectively 85% worse. Play Wario without Shoulder Bash or Squirtle without Withdraw? You lose maybe half of your effectiveness if you know what other tools they have. It's ridiculous.

Interesting.. I can see Falco kind of surviving that but I think it would isntantly kill Fox. I don't know if you were being serious though because of the troll face haha. Maybe less hitlag on shine? Idk, but I trust the PMDT know more than us.

 

[PlateProp]

I haven't really started any fights, in fact the only thing I said that would've been offensive was say you guys were being hypocritical. And falco did get toned down, they nerfed his dair, pretty much his most important tool besides maybe shine. You never answered any of my questions in my last post, but it kind of seems like you're actually picking a fight with me here..

You're kind of ignoring the fact that the thread is about the melee tops, not Roy or Wolf.

Roy and Wolf arent immune to change the wqy spacies arw so it doesn't matter.

Also you think ZSS and Lucario are OP, when they were nowhere near that in 3.02 Are you actually serious about that? Because it seems hella trolly

Make Fox and Falco's shines crouch cancellable like Wolf's

In all honesty, though, their shines are really my only gripe. they are way too over-centralizing to their movesets. Play Fox or Falco without ever using shine, you are almost objectively 85% worse. Play Wario without Shoulder Bash or Squirtle without Withdraw? You lose maybe half of your effectiveness if you know what other tools they have. It's ridiculous.

If any Squirtle loses half their effectiveness by not withdrawing they're doing it wrong lol

 

[PootisKonga]

I'm half serious: Wolf isn't as bad as Fox or Falco in that his shine is just a supplement to his already great moveset (though that is also a result of having different properties than the other two's). That's what Shine should do. One move shouldn't make or break a character to the degree that it does the Star Fox team.

 

[BlueGreenBrown]

You're kind of ignoring the fact that the thread is about the melee tops, not Roy or Wolf.

Roy and Wolf arent immune to change the wqy spacies arw so it doesn't matter.

Also you think ZSS and Lucario are OP, when they were nowhere near that in 3.02 Are you actually serious about that? Because it seems hella trolly

Read post #23, I specifically said I don't think ZSS or Lucario are OP, although I don't think Shiek Marth or Falco are either.

 

[PootisKonga]

Also, I don't really like the whole "they get punished easy, 0-deathed, etc." argument. Partially because it can happen to any character, and partially because as of now the top players of these characters aren't glass cannons like they should be: They're paper-mache orbital lasers.

I don't think they're OP, I just think their strengths and weaknesses are too... extreme.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Also, I don't really like the whole "they get punished easy, 0-deathed, etc." argument. Partially because it can happen to any character, and partially because as of now the top players of these characters aren't glass cannons like they should be: They're paper-mache orbital lasers

That argument is so flawed. Especially, when people attempt to say that about fox/falco. Best neutral game is not ezpz to punish; bad kids.

 

[AlgonquinArto]

I'm going to assume those still complaining about fox are just bad players or have an inability to adapt. I admit that the matchup can be troublesome but with spacies you have to be perfect. I'm crew mates with Malachi and Moxie here in NY they play peach and ike and i have to say when they are on there game it's 0 to death if i mess up. It's easy to ask for nerfs considering the PMDT is listening but it's so much more satisfying to finally learn and understand a matchup. Also to say that development doesn't have PM players in mind is ridiculous.

 

[mimgrim]

The thing about Wolf is that he isn't obnoxious. His laser isn't as good as Fox's or Falco's, this is despite it being buffed in 3.5, his neutral game, while still great, isn't as good as theirs, his Shine, while again important to him, is still not on the level of Fox's or Falco's. He still has things better the one or both a them though, mainly movement (for Falco, Fox still wins out by a little bit in movement), juggle game, and throws.

Don't get me wrong. I think Wolf is really good, especially in 3.5 (personally think he is going to be the 2nd best character after Fox), and is better then Falco (actually think Falco is fine in 3.5 now tbh in terms of design and balance among the cast, but I know quite a few people still think Falco has obnoxious design). But he also fits the best in terms of the design goals 3.5 is going for between the 3.

Actually, I think most characters are fine in 3.5 now with the change is design it took. The only character that I think is a problem in 3.5 is Fox.This is because he is clearly on a different power level compared to everyone else now and doesn't really fit the design goals of 3.5.

 

[PootisKonga]

I admit that the matchup can be troublesome but with spacies you have to be perfect.

Why just spacies? I personally feel there is a threshold of skill with spacies players where they suddenly show why they are the best in the game, and if what you're saying is true then that is just unfair for those who put in just as much effort in a non-spacie.

it's 0 to death if i mess up

It's almost like they are a character in a fast-paced fighting game

 

[mimgrim]

but with spacies you have to be perfect.

That's true for every character ever at top level play. Aka the level of play that matters. Not something exclusive to a certain set of characters. And it is really sickening that people still try to spout the BS that Spacies need to be played perfectly which in turn implies other characters don't. Which is just untrue. It when characters get to perfect level of play that you can see which ones are obnoxious in terms of design.

 

[JayTheUnseen]

You're kind of ignoring the fact that the thread is about the melee tops, not Roy or Wolf.

To be honest,I didn't mean for the topic to only be about Melee tops,but I might have sorta ended up implying that because the most complained about characters are generally the Melee tops,so I forgot while writing that there are complained about PM chars(or were.)

Also,I apologize for the vague "PM is for PM players,not Melee ones.'I do not feel Melee players should be unwelcomed by the PM community and devs,only that the top characters from Melee shouldn't be immune to nerfs( not that they are ),in consideration only to their Melee status and loved play-style by Melee players,because at least you can play said characters in Melee.That said there are no doubt Melee players that want the greats to be balanced in PM like the rest of us,but want the fun playstyles to stay close to the originals,which is why adjustments have to be well done.
Again,not to say they haven't been nerfed or that their playstyle isn't still true to the original.

I also don't mean the PM devs don't consider the PM players,because they do.In fact they are players themselves,if you get my meaning.I'm not accusing them of inadequacy or inconsideration.I am not the most qualified to take part in this discussion,because I honestly know jack squat about the balance of the game,only what I hear.I have not even fought a Fox player that wasn't like myself( only picked up the game recently. )I only can say by my own experience,that I have not felt that I was unable to win against a human solely because their character was better balance-wise than mine.

Again,I honestly made this thread way too early.No one has had time for anything but first impressions,and that is not the best fuel for discussion.
On a side note,let's keep it civil.We won't get anywhere productive if we don't.This is not directed at any one person,just a reminder and a request.

 

[MagnesD3]

How I feel about the 3.5 balancing is that it was massively good overall. The PMBR actively has tried to eliminate as much unintuitive game design from thier game as possible to help promote adapting to a player more then adapting to a character and trying to make the game less brain dead overall. Now yes many characters who were considered poor may have been nerfed but this is necessary for the overall balance of the final product. 3.5 will be a testing grounds to find out what and which characters need more tuning based on how they handle in a mostly jankless environment.

But what of the melee characters? Well I firmly believe this is a test for them as well to see if characters who have had thier jank removed can compete with the melee top tiers as a way to determine whether or not said melee characters truly need certain changes due to them being toxic to the game or not. 3.5 just seems like a hard reset to start rebalancing over in many ways so a field test can determine what move they should make next in 4.0 and beyond, thank god they can do this since we are still in the beta phase of project m. After the field test I'm sure certain characters will be nerfed or buffed adequately depending on what is needed in 4.0.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Prior to 3.5, you could argue that we just need to make characters better and they can deal with melee characters. However, with a lot of neutral games/recoveries nerfed, how are characters supposed to deal with spacies insane neutral options? This same logic applies to Marth. A lot of 3.02 characters struggled with Marth's disjoint even with things like PK Fire, Pikachu's QAC, and Squirtle's withdraw. While maybe this is just players not dealing with Marth that well its actually not that bad, but I am assuming it isn't that exaggerated. So while Marth may seem fine, maybe his tools are too problematic barring giving everyone else crazy tools that are now removed.

So, overall, I like to look at 3.5's changes like @Magnes said: a test. Once they remove as much broken recovery/broken neutral/other jank stuff, how does the cast balance stack up. From there you can add and remove punish game options, make slight neutral/recovery changes, kill power changes, and other character attributes. I think this is a good idea, though it caused a lot of problems where people were frustrated their characters weren't compensated for the nerfs they got. Overall, P:M is looking to come together quite nicely.

 

[JayTheUnseen]

Yes,it definitely seems 3.5 rebuilt PM's 'base' so to speak.The next update,whenever it may be,is when things get real.