Do you feel the Top Tiers were nerfed to a satisfactory level?

[TheGravyTrain]

I personally would a appreciate quicker updates now that the whole cast is in the game and the amount of new content will probably be lower, more balance tweaks (so half a year like they used to?). Really excited where P:M is headed.

 

[Frozn~]

Who where the top tiers of 3.0? From what I could remember, they included characters like Mario, Lucas, Pit, Link, Diddy, Mewtwo, and Fox. They all have really unique playstyles, and not one of them was really stealing the top spot at tournaments consistently (Mewtwo might be an arguable choice).

But anyways, I like how Lucas's U-throw was nerfed so as not to kill at 90%, Link was given more attention, and the only things that were really touched were the newer characters.

My two cents on Falco and Fox are that I like how the PMDT kept their speed of play, and only messed with move power and knockback. They kept that game pace because Melee is a fun game to play, and the characters are fun to play. The Melee high tiers have defined themselves already after 10+ years of people playing them. The PMDT respect this, I also support keeping their playstyles intact. I can't imagine a Fox that needs to camp. What makes PM unique is the larger roster and more balanced spread, all while keeping each character fun and unique. The new characters+melee low tiers are constantly being altered in order to make them able to fight toe to toe with the Melee high tiers, so a set playstyle isn't defined yet for them, so they can't be compared to Fox and Falco based on play speed, since maybe that's not the best way to play some characters.

 

[4tlas]

It seems like the design goal previously was to balance the cast by buffing them to Melee top tier levels. This required giving characters multiple tools that also worked on the rest of the cast, leading to "OP jank ****". Current design seems to be about removing those extra options all over the cast, resulting in MU knowledge being both less intimidating and less impactful.

This is a game, and the point of a game is to have fun by making decisions to accomplish an objective. Choosing your character is a decision, and that should impact your future decisions by changing your options. However, if any MU can boil down to a "hard counter", then the game is over (assuming equal skill) at character select. The fewer tools you give a character, the more likely it is that the character will have 0 or 1 (which isn't really a choice so...0) options that can beat the opponent. The more tools you give a character, the more ways you can choose rock paper or scissors against your opponent, and vice versa.

The top tiers had a lot of options, and the lower tiers didn't. I think giving the lower tiers more options was the way to go about balancing, but that doesn't mean that things didn't need to be nerfed! Honestly, I think what is holding the balance/design of the cast back is keeping the Melee spacies similar. Fox has many tools, but they are also just each too good. Falco doesn't have many tools, but his one tool (laser) is extraordinarily versatile and always effective (except against Bowser armor?). Making other characters have enough (and good enough) options to deal with these characters is not going to work unless they get nerfed/redesigned too.

So essentially, no I don't think they were nerfed to a satsifactory level, and the game hasn't been out long enough for anyone to possibly know. I think this because Fox/Falco were untouched (not that Falco was top. But he sure is stupid design).

 

[Vashimus]

Ug, people are just not going to stop complaining and whining about the spacys until they completely suck will they. They are so easy to kill and combo to death. They don't do that good in tournament results, and yet the devs still gave nerfs, but only get more complaining.

Fox does incredibly well in tournament (the best, in fact), Falco pretty well too, so you really need to do your research before you look stupid.

Also being comboed to death isn't even an excuse when characters like Wolf and Roy suffer the same problem but don't have stupid aspects in their design.

 

[JayTheUnseen]

Well,we should give the devs a chance,honestly.3.5 is a new starting point,and in the newest update,whenever it may be,is when the greats should really be nerfed.If they aren't,then this thread will have reason to exist.Not saying we can't talk here,just saying we should wait a few weeks before digging this topic back up.Maybe it'll get steady posts overtime so it will still be prominent when the newest update comes out.

 

[PootisKonga]

You know what? I'd like to hear the opinions of PMDT members on the design of Fex and Flaco. Up until this point the only major changes they ever really received were to be "more like Melee." And to be honest, it's annoying.

"Nerf everyone's recoveries! Except Fox and Falco, make their's more like Melee's so they're better. Oh wait, we can't just give them buffs in this update! Um, Fox's Usmash kills 10% later, (everyone complains about it, after all) and Falco's stronger Dair hitbox lasts 4 frames instead of 10. Guess that's it."

I'm not crying OP and I have the utmost respect for the PMDT for creating such a great mod that, since finding it, has become my favorite video game of all time, but I sincerely doubt none of them notice the problem that is Star Fox.

They especially need to fix the jank that is the legendary frame 1 projectile reflecting jump-cancellable non-CCable combo-starting aerial mobility stalling semi-spike, regardless of those who lean towards Melee may think, if they want to strive towards true balance like they claim.

/rant

 

[Venom_909]

Prior to 3.5, you could argue that we just need to make characters better and they can deal with melee characters. However, with a lot of neutral games/recoveries nerfed, how are characters supposed to deal with spacies insane neutral options?

1st dehf - fox falco
2nd IPK - lucario
3rd- okami shiek
4th- k9 meta knight
5th venom wolf
5th machiavelli ivysaur
7th nashun mario
7th aero toon link
9th jason waterfalls zss
9th 2jar luigi
9th yador kirby
9th sosa wario
13th meech marth
13th royal DK
13th fracture ike
13th rickety shiek

Here are the results from Socals Most Recent SSS.

I see a nice variety of characters <3


Fact is spacies have a simple way to be edgeguarded. People who got nerfs to recoveries didnt.

 

[Venom_909]

1st dehf - fox falco
2nd IPK - lucario
3rd- okami shiek
4th- k9 meta knight
5th venom wolf
5th machiavelli ivysaur
7th nashun mario
7th aero toon link
9th jason waterfalls zss
9th 2jar luigi
9th yador kirby
9th sosa wario
13th meech marth
13th royal DK
13th fracture ike
13th rickety shiek

Here are the results from Socals Most Recent SSS.

I see a nice variety of characters <3


Fact is spacies have a simple way to be edgeguarded. People who got nerfs to recoveries didnt.

IPK beat larrys fox 2 matches in a row in GF till Larry switched it up to Falco and beat him.

Spacies are fine and personally prefer fighting a spacie > most the cast.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

IPK beat larrys fox 2 matches in a row in GF till Larry switched it up to Falco and beat him.

Spacies are fine and personally prefer fighting a spacie > most the cast.

Are there videos of the SSS anywhere?

 

[Rhubarbo]

You know what? I'd like to hear the opinions of PMDT members on the design of Fex and Flaco. Up until this point the only major changes they ever really received were to be "more like Melee." And to be honest, it's annoying.

"Nerf everyone's recoveries! Except Fox and Falco, make their's more like Melee's so they're better. Oh wait, we can't just give them buffs in this update! Um, Fox's Usmash kills 10% later, (everyone complains about it, after all) and Falco's stronger Dair hitbox lasts 4 frames instead of 10. Guess that's it."

I'm not crying OP and I have the utmost respect for the PMDT for creating such a great mod that, since finding it, has become my favorite video game of all time, but I sincerely doubt none of them notice the problem that is Star Fox.

They especially need to fix the jank that is the legendary frame 1 projectile reflecting jump-cancellable non-CCable combo-starting aerial mobility stalling semi-spike, regardless of those who lean towards Melee may think, if they want to strive towards true balance like they claim.

/rant

I don't know exactly how the PMDT work, but I know they're collaboration. I presume opinions differ greatly between similarly high ranking members within the PMDT, so making a blanket statement about the spacies' overall design would be impossible. Actually, I'm pretty sure this is why the spacies have been basically left unchanged, because there's no consensus about how to change them.

The PMDT needs one creative lead. They should vote one in internally.

 

[Yurya]

I've always liked to see how Spacies would end up if they were no longer fast-fallers. They couldn't combo nearly as well but then they wouldn't be killed as easy with better recoveries and a less combo-able frame.

 

[Venom_909]

Are there videos of the SSS anywhere?

Yeah ill get the Youtube links soon.

http://www.twitch.tv/superdojo/b/589651581 here is the twitch Archive. Had some good matches. Im coming back from hiatus so im uber rusty but ill get back in the flow by next one i think

 

[TheGravyTrain]

1st dehf - fox falco
2nd IPK - lucario
3rd- okami shiek
4th- k9 meta knight
5th venom wolf
5th machiavelli ivysaur
7th nashun mario
7th aero toon link
9th jason waterfalls zss
9th 2jar luigi
9th yador kirby
9th sosa wario
13th meech marth
13th royal DK
13th fracture ike
13th rickety shiek

Here are the results from Socals Most Recent SSS.

I see a nice variety of characters <3


Fact is spacies have a simple way to be edgeguarded. People who got nerfs to recoveries didnt.

Look at Roy. He has a recovery that's arguably worse then Fox. He also is in about the same fall spped/weight combo, so they both get comboed hard. Yet people aren't complaining about Roy's neutral options because has actual weakness outside of easy to gimp and easy to combo. There are lots of similar examples too.

I don't know how overcentralizing spacies are. I don't know how weak some matchups really are. All I am saying is when smart players complained about spacies and or marth, then had neutral options nerfed in 3.5 whithout any compensation, should that not make the matchup even worse? The only 2 justifications for this situation are A) PMDT decides to disregard game balance concerning melee because too many people like them that way or B) 3.5 is a new base model to balance from, once they make judgements on the base of 3.5 (which they didn't care about balance, just design), they can make educated discisions with spacies/Marth/others.

 

[FireBall Stars]

Opinions on spacies (or melee top 8 collectively) may vary a lot depending on the member you ask.

Discussions about them have ocurred many times during development, and opinions have conflicted a lot and compromises have happened.

We tend to not talk much about the matter publicly due to the PR consequences of individual opinions being taken as collective. So, until we have a clear response, you won't see Dev Team members posting much on these kind of threads.

As we stay discussing, I recommend you should keep discussing as well.

 

[Anonistry]

B) 3.5 is a new base model to balance from, once they make judgements on the base of 3.5 (which they didn't care about balance, just design), they can make educated discisions with spacies/Marth/others.

I want this BOLD, HIGHLIGHT, and in FLASHING NEON. Seriously, I argued it in another thread, and conversations about 3.5 cannot be accurate enough if this isn't understood. This is 3.5: A New Hope, where they appear to want to take a different balance direction. They still aim for "all top tier" or at least "all relatively same tier", but that was being done before by "LETS ALL BSPACIES!"... and they saw that as a dangerous path to go down. Now its probably going to be more apparent after a couple of patches down the line, but its likely going to be more "LETS ALL HAVE A CLEAR AND DEFINED GAMEPLAN THAT TRIES NOT TO COVER EVERY OPTION AND THEN SOME"

Its the nature of games. We play them for instant gratification, relief, relaxation... instant feedback of some kind. And its entertainment, and frankly understandable that we feel that way. Thus, we care about balance RIGHT NOW, when its clear the Dev Team is trying to take a longer view of getting there. It doesn't help that this genre's idea of balance has been, until recently, a new game a year or two down the road with little real player input. But we have to be patient unless we want them churning out mess after mess after mess. ESPECIALLY if they have to do this by collective decision...

 

[Spralwers]

I think the PM top tiers from the previous patch, so far, have been nerfed to a satisfactory level. Around the Peach/Falcon level, maybe the Marth level in some cases. We'll see.

The next step is to nerf the melee spacies to that level too. Curious to see what the PMDT implement. I think the best solution is to weaken their neutral game. But if for some reason, Fox/Falco must have the best neutral game as an inherent advantage to their character, then their punish game needs to be nerfed ultra significantly.

 

[Venom_909]

Look at Roy. He has a recovery that's arguably worse then Fox. He also is in about the same fall spped/weight combo, so they both get comboed hard. Yet people aren't complaining about Roy's neutral options because has actual weakness outside of easy to gimp and easy to combo. There are lots of similar examples too.

I don't know how overcentralizing spacies are. I don't know how weak some matchups really are. All I am saying is when smart players complained about spacies and or marth, then had neutral options nerfed in 3.5 whithout any compensation, should that not make the matchup even worse? The only 2 justifications for this situation are A) PMDT decides to disregard game balance concerning melee because too many people like them that way or B) 3.5 is a new base model to balance from, once they make judgements on the base of 3.5 (which they didn't care about balance, just design), they can make educated discisions with spacies/Marth/others.

IDK man i just watched a tournament with a roy winning the whole thing. Its not like im watching the same character win every tournament in each region. Once you learn how to fight against a spacie most look forward to playing against one. If your a solid player. Id rather fight M2ks Fox > any other toon in his arsenal. Most spacie players have years of practice / tournament experience and have pretty solid neutral games on top of the tool kit they are provided. I dont see anyone in socal just showing up and taking sets against experienced players cuz they play spacies and they are that much (if at all) a superior character. Opinions on spacies prolly will never change but i have mine from 4+ years of playing against them in melee and now pm and actually hope to face them in bracket. Its not like 3.02 m2 where its like o gawd i gotta face a spacie im screwed lol

 

[TheGravyTrain]

words

First off, I come from a position of no certainty. These are simply observations from what I see. These are not personal matchup idea but a collection from solid players. These are ideas from what I have seen, not from what I have experienced. Now that that is out of the way, lets begin:

The problem I see with looking at a top 8 is that those characters are all fine and were fine in 3.02. What I was pointing out was characters like Ness who already struggled with Melee tops and now has to deal with a worse neutral. The counter to these complaints is it happened to everyone. However melee characters were untouched, so the melee matchups just got worse.

Don't think of it as I think spacies/other melee vets are broken and nobody can deal with them. What I am saying is some character types seem to not deal with them while others do, maybe meaning that these characters need adjustments. I never said they weren't fun to fight against, but characters will struggle more against them, others get comboed/gimped just as hard (or harder), and yet they still have better punish, kill, and neutral options (spacies specifically, but others might need adjustment in their own areas).

Finally, this brings me to why they weren't changed. Like I said, there are 2 options. You seem to want option A to be the reason and are fine with. In your thinking, as long as the difference isn't massive (like 3.02 M2), you are ok with it. I disagree. I hope B is the case because I think its unfair to characters like Bowser who get punished and gimped harder than fox almost universally, and is also worse imo. The solution isn't give Bowser a great neutral. In fact, a lot of characters get punished/gimped, why is it that fox gets to have no weaknesses. Bcuz maylay?

Again, this a lot of speculation, but do you see where I am coming from? I chose to focus on fox just cuz its easier to quantify and compare rather than marth or others. I personally think that it should be strongly considered. We already tried buffing everyone up to fox, look where that got us. I think with the PMDT's approach, they are coming around to the idea of change since they are toning down neutrals. Project M is looking to turn out awesome.

 

[MagnesD3]

For fox id wonder if making his up smash take 30% longer to kill and his up air taking 30% longer to kill would be a enough to tone him down.

As for falco I still think good nerfs for him would be to implement his brawl forward smash, up tilt, fair and nair while altering them slightly to math the engine as a replacement.

Id like the pmbr to try something like this in at least 1 patch.

 

[Soft Serve]

You know what would help fox/falco with the whole "glass canon" archetype? Nerf their defensive options like tech rolls because they are all well above average.

I completely understand not wanting to change core aspect of their kit or just do straight nerfs, that ruins the central, fun parts of the kit. So do smaller nerfs that trim off the fact they have better options in almost every situation. Yeah, a lot of these problems stem from the fact shines are stupid strong. So hit them in areas like rolls, spot dodge frames, tech rolls and get up options, so when they do get hit they are actually at a larger disadvantage proportional to the rest of the cast for reasons other than being light fast fallers, because we have plenty of those that aren't spacies.

 

[JCOnyx]

Actually having landing lag on Firefox and Illusion would be nice enough. Weakening their rolls and get up options also sounds like a decent idea. Just don't do anything to effect players timings please. Shines hitlag already feels a bit off to me for some reason, have no idea why.

 

[Beorn]

Actually having landing lag on Firefox and Illusion would be nice enough. Weakening their rolls and get up options also sounds like a decent idea. Just don't do anything to effect players timings please. Shines hitlag already feels a bit off to me for some reason, have no idea why.

Yes, if anything they need to have landing lag on their up-bs. This is a no brainer. I would also say that on top of the nerfs they have already gotten, fox and falco should have CCable shines just like wolf.

I feel like half the reason wolf seems so much better designed is the landing lag on up-b and ccable shine.

Speaking specifically about fox... He does too much % per hit on many of his moves. Want to know another character with an 18 percent u-air? BOWSER! Except he can't combo into it 3 or 4 times out of one grab. (I think his uair does like 19 actually but my point stands)

 

[Blitzus]

Personally, I feel as if Fox/Shiek/Marth should be brought down a tad bit more, while Falco should just recieve a new design. All 4 are kind of boring to play against, but Falco is the worst offender.

I still don't get why it's okay for Falco to be centralized pn Lasers, Shine and Dair, while everyone else that has tools as centralizing as those has them removed or changed. Or why it's okay for the two spacies to have tools to handle pretty much anything but it's not for the rest of the cast.

1. Marth is exactly where he should be. If anything, maybe make something happen when you hit the tipper box just for knowing in-game. Not a buff, not a nerf, a learning tool.

2. Fox is... a tiny bit strong right now, but I don't know how much you can change him before you morph the entire playstyle of Fox mains.

3. Sheik is a little strong in this patch, but I feel it's significantly more difficult to chaingrab, which is good at least.

4. I'm okay with changing Falco, but don't cut his Pillar. That's his signature. Bombsoldier would turn over in his figurative grave, and the west coast would give up on PM. (Exaggeration)

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

There's a SFX just for tippers.

 

[GabPR]

Personally for me, I feel that Sonic nerfs were done to a satisfactory level. Besides the huge recovery nerfs, he still possesses a solid recovery with quite a few options, just not a "kill me or I come back" situation. His spin game was hit hard, especially down b, but I also feel that this was necessary due to how "free" the pressure was most of the time, and you still have good pressuring options. All in all he is still a great character and I feel that he has the tools to win.

 

[;Juice-And-Eggs;]

IMO, I think Fox and Falco are fine just the way they are in this version of PM. If the PMDT implemented the nerf hammer on one of their attributes even further, then their play styles of being glass cannons would most likely change, probably for the worse. To add to that, since everybody's grandma knows the matchup for more than a decade, it kind of perplexes me how people today would still complain about Fox and Falco (or maybe Melee top tiers in general) being "op" and want them to be nerfed. Be happy that they're not Brawl MK op...

 

[Venom_909]

Don't think of it as I think spacies/other melee vets are broken and nobody can deal with them. What I am saying is some character types seem to not deal with them while others do, maybe meaning that these characters need adjustments. I never said they weren't fun to fight against, but characters will struggle more against them, others get comboed/gimped just as hard (or harder), and yet they still have better punish, kill, and neutral options (spacies specifically, but others might need adjustment in their own areas).

For starters I appreciate your well thought out response. Refreshing to see that in the forums.

I think game balance while still having a diverse / rewarding cast is such a hard thing to achieve. Even with my experience I don't know what direction it needs to be taken in.

With that being said , I feel that the people who struggle with spacies / melee vets are the ones who also have a hard time vs most the cast. Ness for example to me never felt that strong and yes there are certain things he can do I still feel hes underwhelming as a character. I feel there are still a few of these types that are in the game that need adjustments or just deal with being middle tier. Which in Pm is a lot better then being mid tier in melee. Also bowser has some interesting tools that I dont have much experience fighting against or playing as. But once again, i have seen bowsers take well stacked tournaments. I cant seem to recall the AZ bowser that was doing super well .

Not that long of a response but have friends over

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Lets talk about Marth. There were many characters boards (Wario, Squirtle, Ness, Pikachu, Olimar) who couldn't deal with Marth. Again, these aren't from my experience, so I can't vouch for their accuracy. But say all short range characters outside of say fox and lucas can't deal with Marth, there are 3 options the PMDT could take: 1) Buff these characters neutral options so they can deal with Marth's range and actually get in 2) Ignore the situation and leave it as is because we don't want to touch Marth (Melee vet) or 3) Tweak Marth so characters like said above have a better chance against Marth. Option 1 appears to be what the PMDT has been trying to do (not just against Marth) up through 3.02. Based on their blog posts, we can reasonably say they gave up on that option. Option 2, while preserving Marth, only makes sense if these mains that complain about this matchup are exaggerating and it actually isn't that bad. That is a legit possibility, that is why I keep emphasizing that this is just what I read and hear and is not from my experience. Assuming it is a legitimate balance issue, I do not think because they are Melee vets they should get to disregard balance though. Finally, option 3 is what I hope the PMDT considers. I don't want this characters to be nerfed into the ground. I just think that maybe some of their options should be tweaked.

Also, @ ;Juice-And-Eggs; , justify them being a glass canon to me. People throw that word around yet it usually means nothing. Characters like Roy, Bowser, Ice Climbers, and DK all get punished and harassed pretty freely. Characters like Shiek, Olimar, Ivysaur, Falcon, Roy, Bowser, and DK all have just as bad if not worse recoveries. Yet Fox and Falco have some of the best offense in the game with their pressure, some of the best killing/gimping potential in the game, Fox is probably the most mobile and safe character in the game, and none of the above listed characters can compare. Roy has a worse recovery, just as bad at getting out of chaingrabs/combos, easier to gimp, a worse neutral, and less kill power. Yet people hail Roy as one of the best designed characters from 3.02 (and probably into 3.5 since the lack of changes). Where does that put Fox? Do I want them to be nerfed into the ground? By no means. What I want is them to be considered for nerfs just like any other character. It has been very clear that they almost appear to be exempt from changes other than "to be closer to melee". That is why people want to see them change, because everyone else's characters are getting destroyed by nerfs, yet spacies/others are untouched and they are salty about it. "Be happy that they're not Brawl MK op..." Um, no. You don't just get to say "be happy with what you get". We actually have the ability to make a fair and balanced game. If they are detrimental to balance, they should be adjusted.

 

[Venom_909]

because everyone else's characters are getting destroyed by nerfs

I disagree with all the whining about their character got broken. People suck and are getting exposed for losing free options. From my view on the socal scene the people who deserve to win are winning. 3.5 feels like its done with the gimmicks that 3.02 had.

Even the people complaining are still placing relatively close (or the same) of were they were before. I dont think spacies are that good tbh they are top tier but there is no god tier of unbalance. If you know how to bait / play against a spacie its a fairly straight forward MU. Once a again refering to the scene im familiar with. The spacies who are more experienced / punish harder / play smarter win. Dont see people winning cuz their chracter is superior. Going awww that ZSS really outplayed the fox in everyway but fux is too strong.

Ive never heard people complain about Marth in Pm tbh so thats kinda a laugh for me. IDK what to say anymore tbh. I feel like when i see people lose its due to the options they are choosing. Experience they have.

Best example for me has to be k9. Fool will not stop whining saying they broke his character. When IMO his character is still really good. People crying about diddy nerfs when diddys still AMAZING. Nobody really can see how stupid free **** was in 3.02 and feel they did not need to be nerfed. So the crying transfers to melee characters not changed / op / too good or a million other johns.

Its kinda sad. Yes they are good but in no way do they have that much of an advantage to whine about. Accept that said spacie player is better then you and get on with your life. People feel entitled to wins even being 8 months new to a competitive scene cuz they played with some stupid gimmicky toon that needed reworking. Fact is they got reworked you gotta be good with your character now

 

[Rhubarbo]

Spacies can dictate the pace of a match. If you move in on them, they have ample tools to reset to neutral/counter attack (shine, amazing tech roll, retreating nair/bair, and so on). If you try to bait them out, they can wear you down with lasers. On top of it all, spacies have above-average recoveries. Earning a win off of a tight, defensive spacy disproportionately rests in the failure of the spacy player executing reliable/unpunishable punishes. In other words, spacies don't have discernible weaknesses.

I understand that they can be combo'd easily. This is not a good rebuttal:

1) Even a top spacy player will make a few mistakes in a match. I'll presume this as a hard truth. These mistakes will often lead to eating combos. My assertion is that these combos don't adequately strack up against the strengths spacies have in every other aspect of their game; they don't take enough damage or die quickly enough compared to how much they dominate in every other way.

2) Getting combo'd easily is a poor weakness from a game design perspective. I don't think it's good game design for a character to have one major flaw that leads to long, non-interactive stretches of game play.

If 3.0's Pit's arrows behaved like Fox's lasers and his shield behaved like Fox's shine, I'm pretty sure fans would clamour at the PMDT to completely rework him.

Let's be honest here - no matter how fun spacies are to play, they're not being preserved because they're exemplars of supreme game design.

 

[Venom_909]

Over this thread lol. Ill continue beating spacies in tournament and know that im losing due to being outplayed in 3.5 <3

Stay free guys

 

[Venom_909]

Spacies can dictate the pace of a match. If you move in on them, they have ample tools to reset to neutral/counter attack (shine, amazing tech roll, retreating nair/bair, and so on). If you try to bait them out, they can wear you down with lasers. On top of it all, spacies have above-average recoveries. Earning a win off of a tight, defensive spacy disproportionately rests in the failure of the spacy player executing reliable/unpunishable punishes. In other words, spacies don't have discernible weaknesses.

I understand that they can be combo'd easily. This is not a good rebuttal:

1) Even a top spacy player will make a few mistakes in a match. I'll presume this as a hard truth. These mistakes will often lead to eating combos. My assertion is that these combos don't adequately strack up against the strengths spacies have in every other aspect of their game; they don't take enough damage or die quickly enough compared to how much they dominate in every other way.

2) Getting combo'd easily is a poor weakness from a game design perspective. I don't think it's good game design for a character to have one major flaw that leads to long, non-interactive stretches of game play.

If 3.0's Pit's arrows behaved like Fox's lasers and his shield behaved like Fox's shine, I'm pretty sure fans would clamour at the PMDT to completely rework him.

Let's be honest here - no matter how fun spacies are to play, they're not being preserved because they're exemplars of supreme game design.

Tell that to every spacie whos died at 15% LOL <3 learn to edgeguard them its really easy for the most part. Back throw / insert move here / profit.

 

[;Juice-And-Eggs;]

@ TheGravyTrain By "glass cannons" i mean very easy to combo to as well because of Fox's and Falco's very high falling speed, and their super predictable recovery wouldn't help them as well. Once Fox or Falco is in hitstun, they're at a major disadvantage compared to the rest of the cast. Despite the negatives, both Fox and Falco have high combo potential. Fox and Falco are very solid characters but they are by no means "op." But I can say the same thing to the rest of the cast. Sorry if the Brawl MK statement gave you the wrong idea, I was trying to be cute trying to say that PM Fox and Falco is not as bad as people complained them to be. (In fact sorry for my whole post sounding arrogant in general lol -_-)
Not trying to be some snotty elitist, but in my point of view, the beauty of fighting games (and competitive smash) is that every match you play or watch, you learn something, whether it would be on some matchup, how the game is played, your character's strengths and weaknesses, or some cool technique that you can implement to your play style. Sure you can get salty if you lose, but at the same time, you can learn something from that experience. After looking back, understanding your mistakes and minimizing your bad habits, you will become a better player in general. It just takes time for the results to take in. However, the people who complain about top tier characters (Melee vets for that matter) and suggesting the dev to implement nerfs to them would make me think that the person is simply too lazy to learn about that particular character's weaknesses that they can capitalize on or they just simply give up. This kind of disappoints me because these types of people are not enjoying fighting games as a whole because of this habit. Besides even if the development team (PMDT) nerfed the top tiers, players would find new things to complain about and the cycle goes on and on up to the point where the characters would basically just throw marshmallows at each other (lol imagine that).

 

[Shaoberg]

Let my top tiers alone, please PMDT.

 

[PootisKonga]

Let my top tiers alone, please PMDT.

I'm not PMDT, but I'd advise them to disregard this advice if it means achieving balance

 

[Eltrion]

Honestly the only Melee top tier I'm concerned with is Fox. Falco and Marth both have some rough matchups due to the greater diversity of characters. Sheik's already been nerfed to the proper level. Fox is still Fox though. If it were me, I'd Nerf the KB on his Uair slightly and make his roll bad. Nothing too drastic, but really the key thing is we need to see tournament results before we know what needs to be done.

I predict fox to be even more dominant than he was in 3.02 though.

 

[DraconisMarch]

Over this thread lol. Ill continue beating spacies in tournament and know that im losing due to being outplayed in 3.5 <3

Stay free guys

It's always funny when you see people who--when faced with numerous posts of very good arguments--just rage quit the thread with "You're all just bad and need to stop whining and I'm the only one enlightened enough to see that spacies are fine!" Very nice.

 

[Venom_909]

It's always funny when you see people who--when faced with numerous posts of very good arguments--just rage quit the thread with "You're all just bad and need to stop whining and I'm the only one enlightened enough to see that spacies are fine!" Very nice.

On paper they are solid arguments but for the most part the technical aspect of spacies has a lot to do with how well they place in tournament. Thats why there is such a gray zone between placements of very skilled spacie players and players who are not very on point with their tech skill. I feel the level of expertise needed to execute at a top level as a spacie is something that everyone oversteps and just goes they are much too good of a character.

For starters. Not recognizing when i spacie hits his move high on ur shield or not and reacting accordingly is big in the mu. One that i rarely see people who have trouble with the mu execute.

Also ive never said spacies are not at the top of the tier list. They very well might be.

BUTTTTT i dont see every top level spacie winning tournaments. But i wide variety of players / characters. So to the people who want to sit and complain about tiers in a game where its much more balanced then spacies in Melee i will continue to roll my eyes and say get bettter plz

Coming from a falcon player in melee so i know all to well of having to learn the spacie mu > ******** about something.

O well there will always be those who opt out of the i got outplayed into the spacies are bull**** arguement.

Ill say the same thing i say to others in almost every game i play. USE it yourself and show me how EASY / OP / IMBA it is. Till then stay free. Wish you were in my region for a free bracket match <3

 

[Rizner]

Venom - like you said before lots of characters had free options removed which made the game better, while their characters are still good. In my eyes, with the way the game is right now nair l-cancel shine is a pretty free option, and if you remove the free shield pressure, but still let them exist and/or give them something else to go along with their glass canon concept, is that really an issue?

Also, when other characters had options changed and the players need to shift the way they approach matchups, it was considered an ok thing as it was for the health of the game. Why would you say the spacies should be immune to changes which might make their kit or overall idea of glass cannon a little different?

 

[Venom_909]

Venom - like you said before lots of characters had free options removed which made the game better, while their characters are still good. In my eyes, with the way the game is right now nair l-cancel shine is a pretty free option, and if you remove the free shield pressure, but still let them exist and/or give them something else to go along with their glass canon concept, is that really an issue?

Also, when other characters had options changed and the players need to shift the way they approach matchups, it was considered an ok thing as it was for the health of the game. Why would you say the spacies should be immune to changes which might make their kit or overall idea of glass cannon a little different?

Cause they are already glass cannons looooool. Nair shine isnt free. Lets see you do 2-3 nair shines on shield at the appropriate height of shield to keep shield stun optimal so you dont get OOS options on you.

The free stuff i was talking about was kills at like 30-50 due to trajectories of certain aerials. Along with a free neutral game.

If you think neutral is free with a spacie you should try to play one against someone who knows how to play the MU. By no means is it free.

Id rather not mess with spacies changes personally cuz i feel they are already a pretty well rounded character design that has its flaws / ways around their toolkit / Counters.

Id prefer people learn the MUs / get better. If your going to tone stuff down tone down kill power or priority on hitboxes or something. IDk i think they are fine but thats due to me being able to beat most aside from players clearly better then me.

Its like people who complain about camping in gun games when i just laugh and throw a grenade in the corner the campers sitting in. To a lot of people it may seem like its imba and unfair but im sitting here scratching my head at all the spacie hate.