Do you feel the Top Tiers were nerfed to a satisfactory level?

[Pkjoan]

Project M needs to expand the blast zones.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Project M needs to expand the blast zones.

Just play smash 4

EDIT: link was not a top 5 character people.

 

[Rizner]

Cause they are already glass cannons looooool. Nair shine isnt free. Lets see you do 2-3 nair shines on shield at the appropriate height of shield to keep shield stun optimal so you dont get OOS options on you.

The free stuff i was talking about was kills at like 30-50 due to trajectories of certain aerials. Along with a free neutral game.

If you think neutral is free with a spacie you should try to play one against someone who knows how to play the MU. By no means is it free.

Id rather not mess with spacies changes personally cuz i feel they are already a pretty well rounded character design that has its flaws / ways around their toolkit / Counters.

Id prefer people learn the MUs / get better. If your going to tone stuff down tone down kill power or priority on hitboxes or something. IDk i think they are fine but thats due to me being able to beat most aside from players clearly better then me.

Its like people who complain about camping in gun games when i just laugh and throw a grenade in the corner the campers sitting in. To a lot of people it may seem like its imba and unfair but im sitting here scratching my head at all the spacie hate.

Ah, interesting. Who do you use? And I think the Nair shine option, while often isn't perfect, when playing good foxes is usually reliable enough to stop their options oos. And if they miss one in ten, then the entire approach game from them is just wait for a mistake, which I don't think provides the best experience and limits game interactions. Also, the glass cannon idea is not perfect when they have lasers. The fact they can be super defensive by their quick movement and solid projectile, means they can force some characters to approach them with a bad approach game because otherwise they'll be outcamped.
Even though they only do 1 percent, they're pretty fast and you can get out a handful while still containing mobility around opponents projectile games.

Would you be alright with fox staying the same, but losing lasers and gaining another short ranged glass cannon inspired move?

 

[Phaiyte]

words

Both Marth and Roy's range was slightly nerfed.

 

[Phaiyte]

I think people should stop playing Smash and go play a REAL fighting game, learn how to not get DPd, then come back to Smash before EVER ******** about Fox or Falco's shines.

 

[Anonistry]

I think people should stop playing Smash and go play a REAL fighting game, learn how to not get DPd, then come back to Smash before EVER *****ing about Fox or Falco's shines.

Only problem is that it is ALOT like pre-Ultra SF4 DP... And I was almost going to make the comparison before this post because it keeps making me think of it. ALL that utility in one move, with the ideal drawback being TERRIBLE recovery... except before ultra, they were made overly safe by Focus Attack Dash Cancel, so weakness resolved. It seems kinda like that, recovery is not as bad as it probably could be given all it does.

 

[Venom_909]

Ah, interesting. Who do you use? And I think the Nair shine option, while often isn't perfect, when playing good foxes is usually reliable enough to stop their options oos. And if they miss one in ten, then the entire approach game from them is just wait for a mistake, which I don't think provides the best experience and limits game interactions. Also, the glass cannon idea is not perfect when they have lasers. The fact they can be super defensive by their quick movement and solid projectile, means they can force some characters to approach them with a bad approach game because otherwise they'll be outcamped.
Even though they only do 1 percent, they're pretty fast and you can get out a handful while still containing mobility around opponents projectile games.

Would you be alright with fox staying the same, but losing lasers and gaining another short ranged glass cannon inspired move?

I personally like how the lasers are atm.

Foxs has no hitstun so if ur spaced right u can punish him for lasering with an approach.

Falco is slower then the rest so he tends to rely on his fast / mini hit stun lasers to get in ( once u learn to get around its a lot easier)

Wolfs laser can be hit with a number of hitboxs to negate the laser and isnt as safe an option as some think. So close up lasers are really unsafe.

Rolling against a spacie going super hard pressure also can throw them off. (i play against DEHF on a regular basis) 1-1 against him in melee 0-2 in pm tho.

Im a melee falcon main (last time i played him I beat NEON at a SSS,)and used him at first but moved on to diddy who at first really loved till i saw how ridiculously stupid some of his moves were so i moved on to play Wolf. Its been tough not to switch back to my other toons at times but i really wanna push my personal game with wolf.

INB4 ur only defending spacies cuz u play one. Ive had the same mentality for the 4 years ive played melee and just really enjoy the marthlike juggles that wolf has. Along with wolves being my fav animal I really got into playing as wolf. Really into villains also

M2k just lost to a falcon with fox and opted to go DK and a nerfed M2.

Why would he do that if he had the supreme character that has all the advantages in the world to win if played optimally. (m2k is definitely a specimen for optimal play imo )

If you guys got videos of yourselves against spacies i might be able to help explain certain things over skype if i got the time.

 

[Soft Serve]

Would you be alright with fox staying the same, but losing lasers and gaining another short ranged glass cannon inspired move?

Get rid of lasers and give him another shine

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Get rid of lasers and give him another shine

a red shine plz

 

[CORY]

give him brawl falco shine for neutralb. there, problem solved!

 

[Rizner]

I personally like how the lasers are atm.

Foxs has no hitstun so if ur spaced right u can punish him for lasering with an approach.

Falco is slower then the rest so he tends to rely on his fast / mini hit stun lasers to get in ( once u learn to get around its a lot easier)

Wolfs laser can be hit with a number of hitboxs to negate the laser and isnt as safe an option as some think. So close up lasers are really unsafe.

Rolling against a spacie going super hard pressure also can throw them off. (i play against DEHF on a regular basis) 1-1 against him in melee 0-2 in pm tho.

Im a melee falcon main (last time i played him I beat NEON at a SSS,)and used him at first but moved on to diddy who at first really loved till i saw how ridiculously stupid some of his moves were so i moved on to play Wolf. Its been tough not to switch back to my other toons at times but i really wanna push my personal game with wolf.

INB4 ur only defending spacies cuz u play one. Ive had the same mentality for the 4 years ive played melee and just really enjoy the marthlike juggles that wolf has. Along with wolves being my fav animal I really got into playing as wolf. Really into villains also

M2k just lost to a falcon with fox and opted to go DK and a nerfed M2.

Why would he do that if he had the supreme character that has all the advantages in the world to win if played optimally. (m2k is definitely a specimen for optimal play imo )

If you guys got videos of yourselves against spacies i might be able to help explain certain things over skype if i got the time.

Ah, ok. I think the characters you mentioned have tools to deal with fox and his camping more than some others. Like, from a Zelda perspective, he out projectiles us and also can approach and deal with approaches better. I think I'll need to explore 3.5 Zelda more before being completely sure, but she had these problems in 3.02 and pretty sure she has just gotten less options than before. Other than her, what would a ganon, a puff, a ness or other characters without fast mobility or options do to win outside of making done really good reads, hoping for the opponent to mess up tech or just super playing them in general when they are patient enough to force the other character to approach?

Edit: I guess what I saw in the latest patch is options that characters had to keep themselves safe or help deal with something like a fox that pays patiently they lost, so his matchups he won got more polarizing and whatnot

 

[Venom_909]

Ah, ok. I think the characters you mentioned have tools to deal with fox and his camping more than some others. Like, from a Zelda perspective, he out projectiles us and also can approach and deal with approaches better. I think I'll need to explore 3.5 Zelda more before being completely sure, but she had these problems in 3.02 and pretty sure she has just gotten less options than before. Other than her, what would a ganon, a puff, a ness or other characters without fast mobility or options do to win outside of making done really good reads, hoping for the opponent to mess up tech or just super playing them in general when they are patient enough to force the other character to approach?

Edit: I guess what I saw in the latest patch is options that characters had to keep themselves safe or help deal with something like a fox that pays patiently they lost, so his matchups he won got more polarizing and whatnot

Puffs kinda always been garbo against Fox in neutral. Ness is extremely weak imo in all builds to date.Not familiar with PM zelda. Ive seen a lot of ganons go ham against spacies. With waveland ftilts . bair has solid priority. Down b is really really good in this game also. Now hes got a hover for some odd neutral game incounters. A jab reset with the cap which he was lacking against spacies which makes his punish game harder then ever.

Fact is tho that some characters will counter others. So not every character will be able to handle certain Mus.
Games will never be set to the point that you can roll with one character and not have to outplay the opponent.

 

[PootisKonga]

I think that spacies players defending them as-is without proper rebuttal tend to internalize the space animals' huge weaknesses during their "training" phase before they become good, which in turn makes them view their gargantuan strengths as less than they really are since they get continually pummeled until a certain point in their skill curve. Especially since even top spacies players make mistakes that can be punished.

Also, just because M2K is among the best doesn't mean he is anywhere close to optimal play. That is reserved for TAS.

 

[Venom_909]

I think that spacies players defending them as-is without proper rebuttal tend to internalize the space animals' huge weaknesses during their "training" phase before they become good, which in turn makes them view their gargantuan strengths as less than they really are since they get continually pummeled until a certain point in their skill curve. Especially since even top spacies players make mistakes that can be punished.

Also, just because M2K is among the best doesn't mean he is anywhere close to optimal play. That is reserved for TAS.

Ive defended them for years now. If its really that easy play a spacie and go win a legit tournament. Not talkin about tiny locals with nobody special there. Feel free to come to SSS in socal and test out how great they are. Ive always said they are top tier. But everyone is convinced they are too good. There are some genuinely technical and amazing players that play spacies here that still dont place well at all and are not even on our PR. Wanna know why ?

Cuz they lose in the neutral game / get gimped / ect ect


EDIT: Ive only been a spacie player for a few months. Was a falcon / diddy main. I stopped playing my OWN MAIN and gave the PMDT 10 things that needed to be fixed with diddy. MY OWN CHARACTER........ Guess what they agreeed and changed i think like 8 or 9 of those things. So dont come at me with the im blind to my own strengths ****. I View all characters pretty unbiased.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I definitely want Fox to have a red shine, and a sunglasses taunt. C'mon, Didds and Squirtle get their shades but not McCloud? I'VE BEEN CLAMORING FOR THIS SINCE FOREVER

 

[JayTheUnseen]

Fact is tho that some characters will counter others. So not every character will be able to handle certain Mus.
Games will never be set to the point that you can roll with one character and not have to outplay the opponent.

That's exactly why 3.5 is the way it is.That's why there are nerfs across the board.MUs were becoming polarizing.The characters were getting too strong in general,so that a fight was not based off the actual players interacting,but the characters.The characters pros and cons were vital in how the characters matched up,and you HAD to play to your own character's strengths and against your enemy's character's cons to win,in place of outwitting your opponent,and discovering THEIR personal pros and cons on the fly.That is not what the PMDT wants.If Fox/Falco create clearly problematic MUs,they need to be toned down.If they simply counter a character almost 100%,they need to be nerfed.

 

[PootisKonga]

That's based upon individual players, the fact is that Fox has average recovery and both spacies have the best neutral game in PM.

If their weaknesses justified their strengths, then why isn't Bowser also on par with them? Bowser is also combo food, Bowser has worse recovery than Falco, Bowser is difficult to play effectively, if not on a technical level then in application due to the aforementioned weaknesses... The only strengths he has are some armor frames, weight, and KO power (yet I'm fairly certain Bowser's USmash is weaker than Fox's) Yet he's relegated to mid tier while spacies roam the top free. It's mind-boggling.

And that's without mentioning Shine's overcentralization

 

[Venom_909]

That's exactly why 3.5 is the way it is.That's why there are nerfs across the board.MUs were becoming polarizing.The characters were getting too strong in general,so that a fight was not based off the actual players interacting,but the characters.The characters pros and cons were vital in how the characters matched up,and you HAD to play to your own character's strengths and against your enemy's character's cons to win,in place of outwitting your opponent,and discovering THEIR personal pros and cons on the fly.That is not what the PMDT wants.If Fox/Falco create clearly problematic MUs,they need to be toned down.If they simply counter a character almost 100%,they need to be nerfed.

Trying to create a game filled with 50/50 mus good luck with a cast that diverse. Playing your characters strengths against the opponents weakness is kinda fighting game 101 stuff. Dont have solid mobility / use projectiles. Has a ****ty recovery get them off stage. There are certain aspects of the game you have to use to your own benefit to win. Learning the MU is normally 60% the game in fighting game titles. Most high level players will lose to other players just due to lack of character MU exp.

Which is what I see a lot of people doing. Should find someone that plays that character at a high level and practice with them. See how u can win the neutral game. How can you excel in a MU. If you only show up to a tournament and lose to a character that you dont have hours of practice against you dont deserve to win imo.

A lot of high level players in all ranges of games will have multiple characters to get past a certain mu.

The PM mentality of nerf _____ im having trouble against this makes me sad when it comes down to things that many other players have found a way to beat / get around.


Once you know a MU in and out is when you can see certain players habbits / weaknesses / things to exploit.

O well ill be playing the game for a while just hope for my friends that play spacies they dont get ruined due to people not know how to play against them.

 

[PootisKonga]

If you only show up to a tournament and lose to a character that you dont have hours of practice against you dont deserve to win imo.

Yes, because there are always people in your area who main characters you almost never fight that will be available for practice at any time you wish.

 

[JayTheUnseen]

Trying to create a game filled with 50/50 mus good luck with a cast that diverse. Playing your characters strengths against the opponents weakness is kinda fighting game 101 stuff. Dont have solid mobility / use projectiles. Has a ****ty recovery get them off stage. There are certain aspects of the game you have to use to your own benefit to win. Learning the MU is normally 60% the game in fighting game titles. Most high level players will lose to other players just due to lack of character MU exp.

Which is what I see a lot of people doing. Should find someone that plays that character at a high level and practice with them. See how u can win the neutral game. How can you excel in a MU. If you only show up to a tournament and lose to a character that you dont have hours of practice against you dont deserve to win imo.

A lot of high level players in all ranges of games will have multiple characters to get past a certain mu.

The PM mentality of nerf _____ im having trouble against this makes me sad when it comes down to things that many other players have found a way to beat / get around.


Once you know a MU in and out is when you can see certain players habbits / weaknesses / things to exploit.

O well ill be playing the game for a while just hope for my friends that play spacies they dont get ruined due to people not know how to play against them.

You're right it is nearly impossible to make all MUs 50/50.But the PMDT have tried.Also,as things are now,you still need to know a character's abilities to win generally,and that's fine,it's good.It's part of knowing the game.However it isn't the be-all-end-all factor,and I like that.If you have to spend days researching how to beat the CHARACTER of Fox,not even a certain player,it sounds like he's OP.Even if that is the norm for a fighting game,I applaud the PMDT for going in the opposite direction.

I don't hate you,or think your opinion is foolish,I simply disagree.I am also quite inexperienced,while you seem to be fairly so,so I'm not the best person to dispute you anyway.

 

[Venom_909]

You're right it is nearly impossible to make all MUs 50/50.But the PMDT have tried.Also,as things are now,you still need to know a character's abilities to win generally,and that's fine,it's good.It's part of knowing the game.However it isn't the be-all-end-all factor,and I like that.If you have to spend days researching how to beat the CHARACTER of Fox,not even a certain player,it sounds like he's OP.Even if that is the norm for a fighting game,I applaud the PMDT for going in the opposite direction.

I don't hate you,or think your opinion is foolish,I simply disagree.I am also quite inexperienced,while you seem to be fairly so,so I'm not the best person to dispute you anyway.

Well ill respect your opinion. I have to spend days trying to learn how to fight MK / Lucario / and a few others to beat people... I lost 2 sets to K9 at SSS both in winners and losers. Is it cuz MK is too good or my lack of exp vs MK? Mayb i got outplayed. . . IDK but learning the Will really help my odds. I cant just rely on outplaying them without knowing how to fight them as a character. I feel thats where Tournament exp / training partners really steps peoples game up.

Ive adopted this mentality and opinion from having trouble in melee vs spacies then going and training with Lucky / Fiction / Alex19/ Rcizzle. I used to hate spacies and complain a lot in melee. In melee they are even more dominant as far as advantages. PM characters have a much easier time. so if players in melee can do it why cant you with even better odds?

@ PootisKonga and here in lies the issue. Most other games have online play to learn a majority of the mus. Smash is kinda unique in the fact nobody likes playing it online / wont play online to an extent. So is it really the characters fault you dont have adequate training partners to learn how to beat a spacie or your own circumstances that are holding you back?

This is why i love living in socal and why i think socal is at the top of the game. Its a highly saturated community with many differet players who play a variety of characters. I feel thats one reason socal is so dominate in smash.

 

[Rizner]

Puffs kinda always been garbo against Fox in neutral. Ness is extremely weak imo in all builds to date.Not familiar with PM zelda. Ive seen a lot of ganons go ham against spacies. With waveland ftilts . bair has solid priority. Down b is really really good in this game also. Now hes got a hover for some odd neutral game incounters. A jab reset with the cap which he was lacking against spacies which makes his punish game harder then ever.

Fact is tho that some characters will counter others. So not every character will be able to handle certain Mus.
Games will never be set to the point that you can roll with one character and not have to outplay the opponent.

Ah, ok that's fair. I do agree with those ideas but still am not a fan of their kit and options overall.
Just personally feel they have things which can be used to limit interactions and overall has too many match ups which are really good for him. Not sure if I think it's a problem with those characters or with fox/spacies, but yeah. Definitely understand where you're coming from now at least

 

[Venom_909]

Ah, ok that's fair. I do agree with those ideas but still am not a fan of their kit and options overall.
Just personally feel they have things which can be used to limit interactions and overall has too many match ups which are really good for him. Not sure if I think it's a problem with those characters or with fox/spacies, but yeah. Definitely understand where you're coming from now at least

Thanks you just gotta make sure that in the game characters are not so good that your outplaying them yet still losing. Which was what a few things PMDT nerfed i feel fixed that aspect of the game. I need to inspect / learn mu / whatever u wanna call it for Lucario but i feel hes too strong but it could just be lack of MU knowledge.


EDIT: Rizner im actually training Red Ranger who i think might end up being the best gannon in Socal. Lets see how far he can progress i think hes got potential.

 

[JayTheUnseen]

Thanks you just gotta make sure that in the game characters are not so good that your outplaying them yet still losing. Which was what a few things PMDT nerfed i feel fixed that aspect of the game. I need to inspect / learn mu / whatever u wanna call it for Lucario but i feel hes too strong but it could just be lack of MU knowledge.

OK,I understand now you and I feel the same,as in,a character should not be OP so you know them and outplay them but still lose.
You simply feel/know Fox/Falco are balanced,whereas I honestly don't even know.

By the way,I encourage talk about other characters that were too strong also.Can anyone think of any that still feel too strong?

 

[Venom_909]

OK,I understand now you and I feel the same,as in,a character should not be OP so you know them and outplay them but still lose.
You simply feel/know Fox/Falco are balanced,whereas I honestly don't even know.

By the way,I encourage talk about other characters that were too strong also.Can anyone think of any that still feel too strong?

<3 ITs my opinion they are in a pretty solid place. Top tier but not broken. When i fight m2k im praying he goes fox and not another character. Same thing with axe please go falco. I dont feel id have these deep rooted feelings if the characters were imbalanced.

I do find myself hoping i dont run into lucario tho. That guy hurts and IPucnhKids has taken him to a extreme level on the punish game aspect of lucario play.

 

[Rizner]

Thanks you just gotta make sure that in the game characters are not so good that your outplaying them yet still losing. Which was what a few things PMDT nerfed i feel fixed that aspect of the game. I need to inspect / learn mu / whatever u wanna call it for Lucario but i feel hes too strong but it could just be lack of MU knowledge.


EDIT: Rizner im actually training Red Ranger who i think might end up being the best gannon in Socal. Lets see how far he can progress i think hes got potential.

If you're training a ganon, try finding patient players for him to go against. Most don't know how to deal with super hard camping. Get a patient Zelda for the slow matchup and a patient Falco for the fast one and see how he does. You should be able to see how he reacts when frustrated which will help a ton in tournament matches and deal ahead of time with those feelings and approaches

 

[Venom_909]

Im proficient at a pretty high level with a lot of characters. <3 yeah mindset is one the biggest things to help players with. Not really tech skill but how they view the game alone will help u get much bettter.

 

[Strong Badam]

@ Venom_909 I would be extremely concerned if players that aren't top level of any character were doing exceedingly well in tournaments; no one has stated that mid-level spacies are dominating or that the game's balance at mid-level is even relevant. The argument others are making is that at top level the spacies are too powerful, which I haven't seen you address yet.

Saying that top level players are not dealing with spacies properly is also not really a valid argument. It is neither demonstrable nor relevant. We as a community assume that players at top level are executing the metagame correctly and observe the resultant gameplay to determine tiers. To say that spacies do well because of their player and not the character is to say that top level players of every other character don't put as much effort into getting good. This is insulting as well as irrelevant. It's like telling non-MK players in Brawl to "git gud"; there becomes a point of imbalance where you have to be better than your opponent by an unattainable margin (e.g. how does one become that much better than an on-point Mew2King?) to defeat them. If this were to occur, it would undoubtedly go against Project M's balance goals, and several people feel that way. Personally, I think that remains to be seen in 3.5, and only time will tell.

 

[Venom_909]

@ Venom_909 I would be extremely concerned if players that aren't top level of any character were doing exceedingly well in tournaments; no one has stated that mid-level spacies are dominating or that the game's balance at mid-level is even relevant. The argument others are making is that at top level the spacies are too powerful, which I haven't seen you address yet.

Saying that top level players are not dealing with spacies properly is also not really a valid argument. It is neither demonstrable nor relevant. We as a community assume that players at top level are executing the metagame correctly and observe the resultant gameplay to determine tiers. To say that spacies do well because of their player and not the character is to say that top level players of every other character don't put as much effort into getting good. This is insulting as well as irrelevant. It's like telling non-MK players in Brawl to "git gud"; there becomes a point of imbalance where you have to be better than your opponent by an unattainable margin (e.g. how does one become that much better than an on-point Mew2King?) to defeat them. If this were to occur, it would undoubtedly go against Project M's balance goals, and several people feel that way. Personally, I think that remains to be seen in 3.5, and only time will tell.

Yo whats up strong bad. Never met you but from what ive seen you got my respect as a player.


For starters my references to mid level people losing to spacies is due to my opinion that 80% the people who complain on the forums are mid level people who are not up to par with the current meta. Its also reason for coming off as a jerk and just saying get good. Kinda annoyed with those types that dont work thru it but blame the game / mu / whatever.

I personally do not feel top level players lose to spacies due to the character but by being outplayed. The same reason most games are lost at high level. I do not feel people are losing at the character select screen because between two equally skilled players one of them picked a spacie.

Which regions are haunted by spacies dominating the scene enough with players of a lower skill level / exp that its raising concerns?

In socal at least the spacies that win are winning because of their decisions not their character.

Ill reference the most recent Match between Gahtzu and M2k. Is Gahtzu that much of a superior player to beat m2ks fox?
Or is the gap between character advantages not as adverse as those would lead you to believe?

IpunchKids beat M2ks Fox as well.

I refer to m2ks fox due to the habit of knowing certain matches hes played. I dont got a list of all the spacies losing to people nor do i feel i need it.

I dont know many other characters that die as frequently off the ledge as spacies do at very low percentages.
So much so that everyone gets scared when a spacie is on the ledge or even remotely near the ledge.

Last set against k9 i died 3 times getting gimped below 70%. tried mixing up recovery but the fact is that there is not many other characters where if you guess right in a 50/50 you die. Well not for non spacies A lot of the time one hit offstage is all u need where others can still recover.
On knock down / tech chase scenarios i feel spacies are easier to control then most other characters. They dont have a whole lot of range on their options so whiff punishing is simple.

Their frailty is my number one reason why i keep my stance that spacies are not imbalanced. That and their combo weight is one the easiest to combo / get knock downs for tech chases / juggle / whatever. Spacies have high priority sex kicks which make them really strong in the neutral game. But when you learn to outspace / bait most those moves you can get really solid punishes on them.

In my region the spacies that win are not beating people outplaying them from my perspective.. But by using their toolkit to win. The same as any other character in the region.

Im not the most experienced player and wont ever claim to be. These are just my observations from the 4 years of playing melee and year or so in PM. Playing with players that range from Mango / lucky / s2j / fiction to the everyday scrubs that fill pools.


My whole general point of view and reason for the comments i make: I feel people are copping out to the Im losing cuz its a spacie instead of accepting the loss like they have to with any other character. That they got outplayed by a better player. This attitude of excuses / johns / whatever u want to call them has been more and more rampant these days. Cant play a game of CoD / Battlefield / Dota without there being you killed me cause u camp / i lagged / team sucks/ that weapon (character) is op / cheap. People these days have a hard time accepting and even more so vocalizing that they got outplayed. They would rather opt out for a REASON they lost.

 

[Rizner]

Yo whats up strong bad. Never met you but from what ive seen you got my respect as a player.


For starters my references to mid level people losing to spacies is due to my opinion that 80% the people who complain on the forums are mid level people who are not up to par with the current meta. Its also reason for coming off as a jerk and just saying get good. Kinda annoyed with those types that dont work thru it but blame the game / mu / whatever.

I personally do not feel top level players lose to spacies due to the character but by being outplayed. The same reason most games are lost at high level. I do not feel people are losing at the character select screen because between two equally skilled players one of them picked a spacie.

Which regions are haunted by spacies dominating the scene enough with players of a lower skill level / exp that its raising concerns?

In socal at least the spacies that win are winning because of their decisions not their character.

Ill reference the most recent Match between Gahtzu and M2k. Is Gahtzu that much of a superior player to beat m2ks fox?
Or is the gap between character advantages not as adverse as those would lead you to believe?

IpunchKids beat M2ks Fox as well.

I refer to m2ks fox due to the habit of knowing certain matches hes played. I dont got a list of all the spacies losing to people nor do i feel i need it.

I dont know many other characters that die as frequently off the ledge as spacies do at very low percentages.
So much so that everyone gets scared when a spacie is on the ledge or even remotely near the ledge.

Last set against k9 i died 3 times getting gimped below 70%. tried mixing up recovery but the fact is that there is not many other characters where if you guess right in a 50/50 you die. Well not for non spacies A lot of the time one hit offstage is all u need where others can still recover.
On knock down / tech chase scenarios i feel spacies are easier to control then most other characters. They dont have a whole lot of range on their options so whiff punishing is simple.

Their frailty is my number one reason why i keep my stance that spacies are not imbalanced. That and their combo weight is one the easiest to combo / get knock downs for tech chases / juggle / whatever. Spacies have high priority sex kicks which make them really strong in the neutral game. But when you learn to outspace / bait most those moves you can get really solid punishes on them.

In my region the spacies that win are not beating people outplaying them from my perspective.. But by using their toolkit to win. The same as any other character in the region.

Im not the most experienced player and wont ever claim to be. These are just my observations from the 4 years of playing melee and year or so in PM. Playing with players that range from Mango / lucky / s2j / fiction to the everyday scrubs that fill pools.


My whole general point of view and reason for the comments i make: I feel people are copping out to the Im losing cuz its a spacie instead of accepting the loss like they have to with any other character. That they got outplayed by a better player. This attitude of excuses / johns / whatever u want to call them has been more and more rampant these days. Cant play a game of CoD / Battlefield / Dota without there being you killed me cause u camp / i lagged / team sucks/ that weapon (character) is op / cheap. People these days have a hard time accepting and even more so vocalizing that they got outplayed. They would rather opt out for a REASON they lost.

I feel like this sometimes happens (like half to two thirds of spacies matchups), but at the same time spacies do have some 65-35 matchups or better which at that point makes it so you have to outplay at such a level where when you're playing at a close to or at top level non-spacie you won't win against someone who is also close to or at top level spacie. When the answer is choose a spacie to not have an unwinnable m/u. But yeah, idk. Maybe if they had those 65-35 matchups or 70-30 in their favor but also had some 30-70 I'd feel they were a balanced character. But right now their spread is either close to even or super in their favor.

 

[Venom_909]

whos 65-35 or 70-30 in favor of spacies ?

 

[Ganondalf]

"PM should be for PM players, not Melee players"

i'm sorry but what kind of BS logic is that?
it's comments like these that seperate the community.

..It's.. actually perfect logic.. why make changes to a game with melee[homosexuals] in mind? I don't care what melee players think. They have their dead game (no updates). Stop catering to them. If Fox is broken, nerf him. No ifs, ands or buts.

The community is already seperated. Ignore melee. It is its own game. Make Project M. It's that simple.

As for changes. Dunno, too early to tell.

 

[cisyphus]

we have 41 characters in the current PM build, right? So if you run the math and figure it, there are 861 different matchups that need to be considered if we were to create a completely equal cast. This is why "buff characters to do well vs. spacies" doesn't work: the sheer number of extraneous effects is too great to comprehend at any human level.

That being said, I chiefly play five characters in Project M at the moment: Snake (my PM main), Sheik (my melee main), Samus (my melee secondary-in progress), Marth (my melee secondary), and Ivysaur (my PM secondary). I also play Melee and play it more frequently than I play PM, generally speaking. My take on the spacies matchup is this:

Snake: Has all of the tools to handle their pressure. Camping against Snake is a horrible idea given his powerful zoning game and strong projectile (grenades). Snake chain grabs spacies for a free 50+%, and KOs them at ~100% outright with bair/fair, and has a solid gimping game that's derived from spacies' easier comboing, most notably down tilt to fair and down smash to fair. Watch ANY PROFESSOR PRO video to see this at a high level.

Sheik: This matchup is actually a lot harder because the biggest boon I have with Melee Sheik is her down throw tech chase (which can be done on reaction against 100% of the cast) that has been lost with the PAL down throw in PM. The boon to this is the back throw mixup, but I tend to shy away from this matchup simply because my other options are so much stronger, and because playing PM Sheik actually disrupts my Melee Sheik gameplay (which I think is a valid concern that stops PMBR from shifting the spacies' gameplay too much as well). I have to mentally play the character differently, which I think is the primary reason this matchup is harder for me in PM than in Melee, because I don't actually do anything differently. I'm sure if I boost grabbed consistently, I'd get **** done because Spacie tech rolls are not really that hard to punish. Crawling probably helps here too but I always forget Sheik has it because Melee.

Samus: This matchup is SO MUCH EASIER in PM because of Samus's general boosts. Fire Up Smash catches fast fallers really hard, missiles beat out more options, and Samus's recovery is much harder to gimp. The addition of a crawl makes the Falco matchup so much easier as well. Better rolls make a huge difference as well. I picked Samus up just a couple weeks ago, and in PM I'll 2 stock spacies that would 3 stock me in Melee.

Marth: I play it exactly as I do in Melee and do exactly as well as I do in Melee (poorly because my Marth's garbage).

Ivysaur: This is where cross-character ideology really comes into play, because I play Ivysaur a lot like I would Sheik in that I use throws to initiate techchases, but instead of grab, I'll throw out fair or nair or bair or razor leaf and try to combo off of that. It's a lot harder, but it's still viable. Where this matchup is really remarkable is in the edgeguarding: ivysaur has such huge hitboxes that it's almost brainless to edgeguard spacies. They're so amazingly free once they're off stage that a falling bair to rising bair to upB tether to ledge to ledgeroll will usually KO them. The only hitch is getting them there in the first place, which can be somewhat difficult for Ivysaur. It's a tougher matchup, but by no means impossible and again I think I can chalk it up to my lack of character knowledge rather than "Spacies are OP".

So I guess my point here is this: PM is extremely organic and diverse and rewards you for knowing YOUR character exceedingly well, especially if you understand them in the context of THEIR character, i.e. KO %s, true combos, comprehension of their main gameplans, etc. Leffen spoke recently about this kind of idea (albeit in a Melee context) that Fox (and Falco) mains are the only mains the only mains to spends HOURS practicing execution. He supplemented this by noting that Sheik mains don't sit down with Falco mains and tech chase them until it's perfect, that Marth mains tend to sit around thinking about how they could improve their game without ever taking the steps to implement them. The offhand example I can think of is that Marth can KO Jigglypuff at some ridiculously low percent out of down throw with a JC Up Smash—and yet every Marth main doesn't do it.

I watch my friend Tran practice straight tech skill for an hour every Thursday smashfest before he starts playing matches; I hear him tell me that he does that every day. Better yet, think of Hax or Mew2king who put SO much work into their characters that it puts everybody else to shame. That's the reason they're top 10 in the world without question. I know that I don't put that kind of effort into any of my characters. Even Snake, whose KO %s I've mapped out with pretty great detail, doesn't get that kind of attention from me. I still mistime my grenade cooks, I still miss glide tosses, I still miss C4 stage techs while recovering, I still drop chain grabs and tech chases and C4 stick setups, I still **** up on jab resets by mashing A and missing that third hit because they've rolled away, I still miss DACUS even though it's super easy and absolutely Snake's best approach option. Even my Sheik, who I've played for twice as long as any other character at this point, still drops tech chases because I try to read instead of react, still drops edgeguards because I don't know my options, still gets dair-shined to death because I don't know when and how to tech... My point here is that all of you that complain about these two characters (who I frankly have less trouble with in PM than in Melee overall) need to really soul search a bit and be honest with how much time you put into your characters. You need to honestly consider whether you've developed your character's metagame to the extent that spacies have, and you need to consider whether you're actively thinking about the sorts of things I hear Fox mains talk about who have played for less than a year.

Play more spacies mains, ask them how their character works. They'll tell you. I learned how to SDI up throw up air at 150% just by asking Tran how I do it. I learned how to get out of waveshine just by having Tran grind them out with me for 20 minutes. I learned how to stop getting shine spiked out of back throw at 30% just by asking Tran how to do it. Play more dittos and ask how your own character works. I played Prof Pro for maybe 30 minutes at TBH4 and I learned more than the previous four months of playing Snake. I play Beach in Sheik dittos pretty regularly now and he'll tell me outright when I'm messing something up or when I'm limited because of my lack of tech skill and he'll show me how to do what I need to do and why it's so good to do it. Smash is a hard game. It's really hard. You can't expect to pick it up and get godlike in four months. Mew2king, Mango, PPMD, Mango, Armada, Hax, Leffen, Axe... all of them started YEARS ago and have worked so much to get to where they are. I've seen Armada ask random people at tournaments to help him learn how to chain grab Falco with Pit (this was Super Sweet right before his set vs. Mango). I've had m2k jump at the chance to play my janky Snake at TBH4 (this was right before his set vs. Prof) and he cycled through every character and found the one that he was most comfortable with (Fox). Every game you play is an opportunity to learn. Stop getting flustered by silly things like matchups and characters and start trying to overcome them. Stop whining to smashboards or PMBR about nerfing characters and start looking for their weaknesses. For spacies? They're definitely there. They're those same qualities a lot of other folks have mentioned in this thread. The problem isn't that they're too good, it's that they're well practiced and well trained by design because they have such an expansive base knowledge to work with. They know their weaknesses and mold their play to avoid them. They're the most popular characters to play period. It's a lot different from Snake, who has maybe 6 people actively contributing to the smashboards community. I still learn a lot, but it's still annotated with a sort of "this might be the case all the time. this might not do the case all the time. More testing needed." There's a mental gap between spacies and non-spacies that needs to be closed before this kind of discussion is even legitimate.

tl;dr play your character as much as spacies play theirs, then talk about whether they need nerfing.

 

[Rizner]

whos 65-35 or 70-30 in favor of spacies ?

I'd say Zelda, probably ganon but unsure since updates, ness, puff, ICs, link (dependent on stage - some it'll be closer to 50/50 but at least one or two of stages in a set will be rough), zard, maybe the new lucas although prob not, kirby, olimar, and super maybe on gnw but I don't know much about game and watch so can't actually say that last one legit. But even if I'm off on half or more of these, the fact that she has at least 3-4 (I can say Zelda, ness, puff, IC, link with pretty strong confidence) and no real bad matchups to even it out is kinda rough. But depending on the viewpoint, maybe that's fine and maybe that's an issue with fox/spacies and maybe that's an issue with them. But regardless, I believe it's a thing worth mentioning/considering.

 

[kaizo13]

..It's.. actually perfect logic.. why make changes to a game with melee[homosexuals] in mind? I don't care what melee players think. They have their dead game (no updates). Stop catering to them. If Fox is broken, nerf him. No ifs, ands or buts.

The community is already seperated. Ignore melee. It is its own game. Make Project M. It's that simple.

As for changes. Dunno, too early to tell.

it's not about PM players or Melee players....it's about smashers and the opportunity to create a good competetive well balanced smash game. Stop with all the "we, us, them" mentality. That's the most toxic thing about this community.

When Project M 1.0 was under works, who do you think was the intended audience? PM players? No because well, there wasn't any. This game is for smashers by smashers, and anyone who is part of the community should have a say in it.

 

[Ganondalf]

it's not about PM players or Melee players....it's about smashers and the opportunity to create a good competetive well balanced smash game. Stop with all the "we, us, them" mentality. That's the most toxic thing about this community.

When Project M 1.0 was under works, who do you think was the intended audience? PM players? No because well, there wasn't any. This game is for smashers by smashers, and anyone who is part of the community should have a say in it.

Except there is a 'we' mentality. We don't step on the toes of Sm4sh and we shouldn't be catering to melee players. They won't play P:M as much as melee (or they wouldn't be melee players, right?) Of course anyone has a say, but don't try to say that someone who primarily plays melee and never plays P:M should have as much weight as someone who only plays P:M.

And stop using the buzzword 'toxic' there is nothing 'toxic' about actually considering the community that actually plays the game on a more serious basis than a bunch of people who don't. I guess we should start listening to the Smogon people. They surely know what they are talking about when it comes to P:M. The trash talk can be a problem, but actually using some common sense shouldn't be considered 'toxic'.

 

[Venom_909]

Except there is a 'we' mentality. We don't step on the toes of Sm4sh and we shouldn't be catering to melee players. They won't play P:M as much as melee (or they wouldn't be melee players, right?) Of course anyone has a say, but don't try to say that someone who primarily plays melee and never plays P:M should have as much weight as someone who only plays P:M.

And stop using the buzzword 'toxic' there is nothing 'toxic' about actually considering the community that actually plays the game on a more serious basis than a bunch of people who don't. I guess we should start listening to the Smogon people. They surely know what they are talking about when it comes to P:M. The trash talk can be a problem, but actually using some common sense shouldn't be considered 'toxic'.

Calling people who play a particular game homosexuals is pretty much something any community would want to avoid. Im a 4 year melee vet that went over to PM due to it being a fresh new game to discover / test how far i can get. Baseless attacks should be left out but hey all u can do is ignore trashy players like that

And ive never disagreed to nerfing spacies IF they really need to be nerfed. I just dont see valid evidence that this be the case.

I for my part no matter what characer i play put a lot of time into them to become proficient with that character. Not sure how much everyone else practices. Or who they play against. I see a lot of losses to spacies avoidable. Seeing people fall for the same approach over and over again due to them not having control. Control that i see in reach from my perspective. O well. If they decide to nerf spacies so be it. Just hope they dont ruin how they play to cater to people who dont know how to counter spacie neutral / pressure and just panic / get hit easily.

Spacie play to me is kinda snowbally where if you can get the other player flustered by a few hits they melt and break down in their own mind thinking all day that the MU is unwinnable / unfair as opposed to thinking what they gotta do to win.



Used to skateboard and remember every time I pictured myself falling and eating **** on a huge stair set i normally would do just that. If you picture in your mind catching the board / the landing / rolling away it helps with your success.

In that very same aspect. If you gimp your own thinking by keeping the negativity of what you think is an unwinable match up you will lose. Stay focused. Picture yourself doing what you need to do. Games are very mental. And if you allow a certain MU block to stay in your head you will have plenty of trouble with it.

Used to have that mental block with sheik in melee. As falcon all i could see in my head was getting grabbed then tech chased for days. It wasnt till i pictured myself moving all around the sheik never getting grabbed that i started to excel in that MU.

Hope that helps.

 

[kaizo13]

why make changes to a game with melee[homosexuals] in mind? I don't care what melee players think.

The trash talk can be a problem, but actually using some common sense shouldn't be considered 'toxic'.

oh the sweet irony

anyways, if you think that Project M hasn't benefitted from feedback coming from outside the PM community, then you'd be wrong.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Every other character gets nerfs/changes. Some aren't even doing well in tournaments at all. Space animals can learn to adapt to a changing game just like any other PM player. You sound hella bias if you continuously say that space animals outplay everybody on a player-level but couldn't say so for other characters, who happen to actually be looked at objectively during balance patches.

 

[Spralwers]

I've beaten many spacie players with 3.02 Ganondorf at locals, regionals, and even nationals in the east coast and the midwest. When I lose to spacies, it's generally versus players much better than me as well (or are they?). However that doesn't count as good evidence against spacies being too good. 100% of the time I beat a spacie with Ganondorf, the spacie lost to themselves before they lost to me - all I did was deal the finishing blow. I've picked up Marth as an anti-spacie character since he actually has the tools needed to go head to head with spacies - high movement, huge grab range, and large, quick, powerful disjoints.

I personally do not feel top level players lose to spacies due to the character but by being outplayed. The same reason most games are lost at high level.

Pretty much feel the opposite here. There are lots of MUs where a character is at a clear advantage, esp as spacies. The higher level spacies you play, the more important character choice is. If you play a bad character in the MU, who will only get 1-2 openings for every 3-6 openings a spacie has on you, why would win? The only reason why you'd win at that level is your opponent was having a bad day, and that's a pretty bad way to try to win a game.

Falcon in melee is equally if not more popular than Fox and serious work has been done on him, but Falcon mains generally don't get top 8 at big nationals lol. Hax has put serious work into Falcon but, a year later, with Fox, he's done better than ever, and beats people who he was consistently losing to before (like Zhu). Fox has a much higher ceiling than Falcon does. Fox fights evenly or at an advantage in every MU. That matters at higher levels of play. If you don't believe me, you can just ask Hax yourself (or maybe I can find his posts where he talks about the matter), he'll tell you that switching to Fox made a big difference and explain why in clear details.

M2K's Fox is not really the shining example of great Fox play. It's lost on many occasions to people worse than he is. Larry/DEHF most likely has a better Fox, and Zero is definitely better. Zero used the character extremely well even in the tougher environment of 3.02. Falcon actually does better against Fox in this game btw - better stagelist, and upthrow is a specifically good combo tool vs spacies (and it bleeds into being awesome against semi FFs/semi floaties as well). If that was Zero's Fox, I don't think Gahtzu would've won, but Gahtzu was on fire that tournament so you never know.

MK and Lucario have actual weaknesses in neutral that can be taken advantage of by a lot of characters. MK is weak to projectiles and CC. Lucario has a horrible neutral game and can't approach. Spacies aren't good because they have 13 years of refinement, they're good because their basic toolkits are incredible, which gives them more mileage on average out of advanced techs. People knew Fox and Falco were top tier since 2002 lol, smash is complicated but it's also simple at the same time.