Do Spirits Deconfirm? Update: Min Min = Spirits Don't Deconfirm Anymore

[RileyXY1]

At this point Spirits still most likely deconfirm, considering the rule only got amplified with each update instead of getting a hit.

The core of spirit theory is not the artwork, but how Spirits are named in the first place.

People love to bring up the fact that there where plenty of alternate spirits in the basegame but all these spirits are named differently.

The real Link is called "Link" and thats his fighter spirit and other Link spirits are named after the Link from that game (For example "Link (Ocarina of Time)"

The Link rule also applies to all the other characters like Samus, Wii Fit Trainer and King K.rool who also have alternate spirits, and it even goes as far that if an alternate form is a costume option like Meta Ridley, Koopalings etc. they are labeled as Fighter spirits to (for example if "Kaptain K.rool would have been a costume, it would also be considerd a Fighter spirit, and DLC has amplified this rule anyway with Joker's student costume and the 4 Dragon Quest heroes, following the same ruling)

Also my Link example got amplified by the Lets go spirits and the Three Houses spirits, in which once again they named the new Pikachu spirit "Partner Pikachu" to differ it from the "Pikachu" Fighter spirit and while the Three Houses update did show that they are willing to change the naming of a spirit, the only thing they changed was the Hilda and Dimitri spirit, to differ it from the base game spirits of characters that share the same name and come from a different franchise.

So yeah the only thing to shatter this theory is if we get a spirited character and the fighter spirit either shares the name of the base game spirit or they made changes to either the base or the fighter spirit to differ those spirits from each other.

For example lets take Rex. Both spirits need to be called "Rex" or Sakurai changes one of them to "Rex & Pyra"

In this scenario Rex still has a chance(but he has another hurdle to overcome which will be my next point) because, calling his fighter spirit "Rex & Pyra" keeps the whole theory intact still and the vanilla "Rex" spirit then would act the same way as other alternate form spirits, but I feel other characters are less lucky like Rayman for example, because then both spirits once again need to be called "Rayman"(can't really apply the Pyra trick to him, unless they change the basegame Rayman spirit to what game he comes from), so while its offcourse not impossible, you need to realise this is the scenario that needs to happen to make a spirited character playable.

Pokemon is also the only franchise I can see breaking the Event spirit rule, because Pokemon is a rulebreaker in general and the most likely Gen 8 reps aren't spirits yet and while it did have an event, they can still draw enough spirits for their spirit board by using the upcoming SwSh DLC as source material, which is what I would consider a problem for some characters to (this is the hurdle for Rex I mentioned in my previous example, because Xenoblade 2 already got its core stuff as basegame spirits)

To give you an example how easy its still is to draft enough material for the Gen 8 spirit board:
Cinderace as the fighter spirit
Rillaboom, Intellion, Wooloo, Toxitricity, Kubfu(with Urshifu being its upgradedable form) and you can fill up the rest with Dynamax forms for example.

If Pokemon was getting a new character then they wouldn't have done the Sword and Shield Spirit event at all, instead those Spirits would have been bundled with the fighter.

 

[Proceleon]

would we? what indication have we had on sakurai's feeling towards geno

He's been openly in favour of a playable Geno since Brawl.

At this point Spirits still most likely deconfirm, considering the rule only got amplified with each update instead of getting a hit.

The core of spirit theory is not the artwork, but how Spirits are named in the first place.

People love to bring up the fact that there where plenty of alternate spirits in the basegame but all these spirits are named differently.

The real Link is called "Link" and thats his fighter spirit and other Link spirits are named after the Link from that game (For example "Link (Ocarina of Time)"

The Link rule also applies to all the other characters like Samus, Wii Fit Trainer and King K.rool who also have alternate spirits, and it even goes as far that if an alternate form is a costume option like Meta Ridley, Koopalings etc. they are labeled as Fighter spirits to (for example if "Kaptain K.rool would have been a costume, it would also be considerd a Fighter spirit, and DLC has amplified this rule anyway with Joker's student costume and the 4 Dragon Quest heroes, following the same ruling)

Also my Link example got amplified by the Lets go spirits and the Three Houses spirits, in which once again they named the new Pikachu spirit "Partner Pikachu" to differ it from the "Pikachu" Fighter spirit and while the Three Houses update did show that they are willing to change the naming of a spirit, the only thing they changed was the Hilda and Dimitri spirit, to differ it from the base game spirits of characters that share the same name and come from a different franchise.

So yeah the only thing to shatter this theory is if we get a spirited character and the fighter spirit either shares the name of the base game spirit or they made changes to either the base or the fighter spirit to differ those spirits from each other.

For example lets take Rex. Both spirits need to be called "Rex" or Sakurai changes one of them to "Rex & Pyra"

In this scenario Rex still has a chance(but he has another hurdle to overcome which will be my next point) because, calling his fighter spirit "Rex & Pyra" keeps the whole theory intact still and the vanilla "Rex" spirit then would act the same way as other alternate form spirits, but I feel other characters are less lucky like Rayman for example, because then both spirits once again need to be called "Rayman"(can't really apply the Pyra trick to him, unless they change the basegame Rayman spirit to what game he comes from), so while its offcourse not impossible, you need to realise this is the scenario that needs to happen to make a spirited character playable.

Pokemon is also the only franchise I can see breaking the Event spirit rule, because Pokemon is a rulebreaker in general and the most likely Gen 8 reps aren't spirits yet and while it did have an event, they can still draw enough spirits for their spirit board by using the upcoming SwSh DLC as source material, which is what I would consider a problem for some characters to (this is the hurdle for Rex I mentioned in my previous example, because Xenoblade 2 already got its core stuff as basegame spirits)

To give you an example how easy its still is to draft enough material for the Gen 8 spirit board:
Cinderace as the fighter spirit
Rillaboom, Intellion, Wooloo, Toxitricity, Kubfu(with Urshifu being its upgradedable form) and you can fill up the rest with Dynamax forms for example.

If Pokemon was getting a new character then they wouldn't have done the Sword and Shield Spirit event at all, instead those Spirits would have been bundled with the fighter.

Finally, people who get it.

 

[zferolie]

He's been openly in favour of a playable Geno since Brawl.



Finally, people who get it.

I just wanna say I think its still a strong chance, but right now I think its 50-50, when if FP1 it was 100%. I just don't want to close my mind off the idea

 

[fogbadge]

He's been openly in favour of a playable Geno since Brawl.

and yet even with the multiple opportunities to do so theres been nothing to suggest hes ever pursued the idea. for all we know he could have decided against the idea all together after all there are plenty of characters we know were consider not put in and never considered again

 

[Rie Sonomura]

and yet even with the multiple opportunities to do so theres been nothing to suggest hes ever pursued the idea. for all we know he could have decided against the idea all together after all there are plenty of characters we know were consider not put in and never considered again

other examples included Ayumi Tachibana, Takamaru, Krystal, and possibly Chorus Kids if they don't become DLC

 

[RileyXY1]

He's been openly in favour of a playable Geno since Brawl.



Finally, people who get it.

I actually only think that DLC Spirits deconfirm.

 

[Proceleon]

I actually only think that DLC Spirits deconfirm.

Again with the double standard? Why? A Spirit's a Spirit regardless of when it was added.

 

[RileyXY1]

Again with the double standard? Why? A Spirit's a Spirit regardless of when it was added.

Because of the timing of FP2.

 

[Proceleon]

Because of the timing of FP2.

But it's not like it's a different game or something, it's still just DLC. Why would timing play any part when it's literally just more of what we got in FP1??

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Again with the double standard? Why? A Spirit's a Spirit regardless of when it was added.

What double standard? Because there isn't one.

The timing of the base game spirits were chosen around the same time as Pass 1, which is why people believed they disconfirmed.

So the timing of DLC spirits are considered as being around the same time as Pass 2, which is why those particular ones disconfirm.

Base game spirits no longer are relevant to Pass 2's decisions in the timing, so they have completely different contexts. We know that Pass 2 was decided upon later than Pass 1, and we don't know exactly when it was started, or even when all the details are finished. This means that it also is a unique situation where trying to apply the same "rules" is asinine too. The best we have is FP2 may have been finished deciding upon by November 2019, which is practically a year later from November 2018, when the original Pass was finished being figured out. The only thing clear is by "figured out", they mean they at least have the IP's licensed, and anything else could've happened at any point. Now, keep in mind we have details that B&K were figured out somewhere around March 2018, which also gives us an idea of how late they could've been started being figured out, probably at least a year before being announced or extremely close to.

That also tells us that he couldn't have decided any of the later DLC characters early enough to be at the same time as base Spirits. Thus, they're completely unrelated to each other as is. Unless you think Sakurai is going to take a significant amount of time to fish through 1300 lines every time a character is brought up? Which is a waste of time. If a character is literally the same name, he can rename the Spirit. Which they already do, meaning it's no longer a legitimate issue to even bring up. So frankly, these so-called issues don't even exist. The only one that has a fair point at all is "He might think that's enough of a role for them", and that's kind of it. But considering Spirits are still the game's equivalent to Trophies, I highly highly doubt that.

You should actually not ignore context when thinking about what a double standard actually means. Double standards have to also ignore context to work. Otherwise it's not an actual double standard, but someone thinking about it carefully and applying multiple factors.

 

[RileyXY1]

But it's not like it's a different game or something, it's still just DLC. Why would timing play any part when it's literally just more of what we got in FP1??

We don't know that yet, especially considering that none of the FP2 characters have been announced.

 

[Proceleon]

What double standard? Because there isn't one.

The timing of the base game spirits were chosen around the same time as Pass 1, which is why people believed they disconfirmed.

So the timing of DLC spirits are considered as being around the same time as Pass 2, which is why those particular ones disconfirm.

Base game spirits no longer are relevant to Pass 2's decisions in the timing, so they have completely different contexts. We know that Pass 2 was decided upon later than Pass 1, and we don't know exactly when it was started, or even when all the details are finished. This means that it also is a unique situation where trying to apply the same "rules" is asinine too. The best we have is FP2 may have been finished deciding upon by November 2019, which is practically a year later from November 2018, when the original Pass was finished being figured out. The only thing clear is by "figured out", they mean they at least have the IP's licensed, and anything else could've happened at any point. Now, keep in mind we have details that B&K were figured out somewhere around March 2018, which also gives us an idea of how late they could've been started being figured out, probably at least a year before being announced or extremely close to.

That also tells us that he couldn't have decided any of the later DLC characters early enough to be at the same time as base Spirits. Thus, they're completely unrelated to each other as is. Unless you think Sakurai is going to take a significant amount of time to fish through 1300 lines every time a character is brought up? Which is a waste of time. If a character is literally the same name, he can rename the Spirit. Which they already do, meaning it's no longer a legitimate issue to even bring up. So frankly, these so-called issues don't even exist. The only one that has a fair point at all is "He might think that's enough of a role for them", and that's kind of it. But considering Spirits are still the game's equivalent to Trophies, I highly highly doubt that.

You should actually not ignore context when thinking about what a double standard actually means. Double standards have to also ignore context to work. Otherwise it's not an actual double standard, but someone thinking about it carefully and applying multiple factors.

Base game Spirits are relevant as long as they're still in the game; their very presence makes them relevant.
Sakurai most likely does have a list of characters who are in already for quick reference, he's not going to add anyone if it conflicts with in-game material. Unlike SSB4 there's no special treatment due to characters being veterans since all veterans are already there, so the only viable characters will be those who are both new and not currently present in the game. Renaming a Spirit means nothing in the grand scheme of things since it doesn't address the mechanical purpose of said Spirit, which is a lot harder to get around. The name was never an issue, the function is.
Spirits are so much more than Trophies, and equating the two is diluting the mechanics of the game to an absurd degree.

FP2 being Volume 2 literally just means we're getting more of what we've already had. If we didn't expect Spirits then, we shouldn't now. Even with context, the content of FP2 has no reason to include Spirits. Timing is irrelevant, being a second volume is irrelevant and Sakurai is not going to undo parts of the game's development just to appeal to a minority of fans who are just butthurt their favourite character isn't playable.

PS. That last part wasn't directed at anyone in particular, but when Spirits get brought up it's more often than not some entitled megafan desperately clinging to the hope that Geno's going to be DLC despite what's done already being done, like "Yes, Mr. Strawman, Geno is a Spirit. That's the way he's going to stay. What's done is done. Get over it."

We don't know that yet, especially considering that none of the FP2 characters have been announced.

We kinda do actually, getting more of the same is literally what Volume 2 means.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

We don't know that yet, especially considering that none of the FP2 characters have been announced.

Exactly. There's literally zero evidence of this. We know at best they follow the same structure(character, music, stage). Spirits Boards are not confirmed(but are very likely. In fact, if they don't happen, this also kills the biggest hurdle, that some characters need a spirit board but there's "too many" used spirits, which never made much sense, but is still a thing. I.E. this is said for ones like Waluigi, despite there being a ton of unused Mario characters. You could go on with any of them. Even a Gen VIII Pokemon does not lack Spirit choices, for instance. I mean, I doubt they're getting one as the Spirit Event was released based more around FP2 as well, but "lacking spirits" is a load of bull either way).

 

[RawstyleEevee]

If Pokemon was getting a new character then they wouldn't have done the Sword and Shield Spirit event at all, instead those Spirits would have been bundled with the fighter.

Oh don't get me wrong, its not that I feel a Gen 8 rep is guaranteed, but I still can easily see it as an exception because Pokemon tends to be a rule breaker when it comes to Smash Speculation in general.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

other examples included Ayumi Tachibana, Takamaru, Krystal, and possibly Chorus Kids if they don't become DLC

And Dixie Kong and Toon Zelda.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

And Dixie Kong and Toon Zelda.

Don’t forget Pra_Mai, who was possibly Plusle and Minun a la Ice Climbers.

the only revisited fighter idea so far has been Chrom and that worked out due to 1. His demand, and 2. How easy it was to make him an Echo. I guess Banjo counts too but at the time that was due to Microsoft buying out Rare so there wasn’t much choice back then

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Don’t forget Pra_Mai, who was possibly Plusle and Minun a la Ice Climbers.

the only revisited fighter idea so far has been Chrom and that worked out due to 1. His demand, and 2. How easy it was to make him an Echo. I guess Banjo counts too but at the time that was due to Microsoft buying out Rare so there wasn’t much choice back then

Well, the Miis, Pac-Man, Villager, Wario, Lucas, Bowser, Marth, and King Dedede were all cut from previous entries before being added.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Don't forget Mewtwo, planned to be in Smash 64. But not worked on.

Also, some were just ideas and not actually cut from the game itself. Lucas is the only who was a cut veteran among the list Mushroomguy said.

Likewise, the Forbidden 7 had to have slight work done on even if it's just a file for some. Pra_Mai we don't have a clue what they are, but if they were Plusle & Minun, it makes some sense. Being a stand-in for Pichu/based upon it is possible, as they'd help promote the "doubles" battles in Gen III, one of the new Mechanics that was full-out done and promoted(it wasn't actually done in Gen II despite having you team up with someone. You just fought the Trainer separately while the other was offscreen). Roy had a slight bit of work done, Mewtwo got pretty far. The rest were just names otherwise bar Dixie. Dr. Mario, Toon Zelda, and we know Dixie Kong did get worked on too but had to be scrapped due to the unique mechanic with Diddy not working as intended. The last one is Toon Sheik(which is pretty clearly what he meant, though he probably would've changed it to Tetra due to an easier model to work with, but that also requires an all new moveset instead of being a clone). However, it's worth noting that Toon Link used Young Link as a base to start off with, not simply Link, so maybe it would've just been a revision of Sheik for Toon Sheik and left it at that. It depends what would've been easier to develop.

Anyway, he has quite a backlog of many characters thought on.

 

[fogbadge]

Well, the Miis, Pac-Man, Villager, Wario, Lucas, Bowser, Marth, and King Dedede were all cut from previous entries before being added.

to be fair lucas was cut from melee due to his game being cancelled at the time

 

[Mushroomguy12]

to be fair lucas was cut from melee due to his game being cancelled at the time

Well, yeah, they all had reasons for being cut.

 

[zferolie]

I really would have loved to seen some of these special 7. Plusle and Minum could have been fun(though Gardevoir was my Gen 3 pick), and a Dixie Diddy combo would have been awesome. What were the issues that stopped that I wonder...

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I really would have loved to seen some of these special 7. Plusle and Minum could have been fun(though Gardevoir was my Gen 3 pick), and a Dixie Diddy combo would have been awesome. What were the issues that stopped that I wonder...

All he said is it didn't work in programming, specifying nothing in particular. We don't really have a clue exactly how it'd work. Are they more transformation like Zelda/Sheik or duo like Ice Climbers? We saw that there was quite a lot of lag with natural transformations, so it could be "summoning someone from a barrel" didn't work as planned, and that's basically the ideal switch-out for them. It's also possible Dixie didn't play correctly as well, the way he envisioned. In fact, if you look at Diddy's Side B, it honestly feels a bit shoehorned in. That was probably the Banana Throw at one point, with keeping Down B as the traditional Switch Out mechanic.

My real question is why Dixie is still not in yet. I always theorized he thinks her being a Tag Team is important, and I will admit that would make it a cooler addition(especially if they went with Cranky. It's not a completely accurate team up, but they're vastly different characters either way). Though 4 getting rid of Transformations could be part of why, and then King K. Rool seems like he was simply just higher voted so took the spot. But considering he redid Diddy where he could easily use him as a base for Dixie(either as an Echo but using DK's Up B or a semi-clone more akin to Isabelle), I find it odd she's still not here yet. Is it just lower priority at best? I hope she shows up, though. Even if it's not this game.

 

[zferolie]

All he said is it didn't work in programming, specifying nothing in particular. We don't really have a clue exactly how it'd work. Are they more transformation like Zelda/Sheik or duo like Ice Climbers? We saw that there was quite a lot of lag with natural transformations, so it could be "summoning someone from a barrel" didn't work as planned, and that's basically the ideal switch-out for them. It's also possible Dixie didn't play correctly as well, the way he envisioned. In fact, if you look at Diddy's Side B, it honestly feels a bit shoehorned in. That was probably the Banana Throw at one point, with keeping Down B as the traditional Switch Out mechanic.

My real question is why Dixie is still not in yet. I always theorized he thinks her being a Tag Team is important, and I will admit that would make it a cooler addition(especially if they went with Cranky. It's not a completely accurate team up, but they're vastly different characters either way). Though 4 getting rid of Transformations could be part of why, and then King K. Rool seems like he was simply just higher voted so took the spot. But considering he redid Diddy where he could easily use him as a base for Dixie(either as an Echo but using DK's Up B or a semi-clone more akin to Isabelle), I find it odd she's still not here yet. Is it just lower priority at best? I hope she shows up, though. Even if it's not this game.

yeah it is very odd Dixie is not in yet. You can't even use the excuse that DK already got a rep in the game so getting another ius too much, when both FE AND Metroid got 2 reps.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

yeah it is very odd Dixie is not in yet. You can't even use the excuse that DK already got a rep in the game so getting another ius too much, when both FE AND Metroid got 2 reps.

Well, we did get K. Rool, so at least priority might be part of the reasoning.

With her not being there, you can see why I theorize he really is hung up on the tag team thing, as it'd actually be a good reason she's not in yet. Smash 4 made those impossible and King K. Rool is clearly easier to make than a Transformation character.

Nonetheless, he might speak more on her some day, probably when she's already in and explains "why not till now". For all we know, she's coming as a Tag Team too(I mean, we already got one via Banjo & Kazooie, so it's possible for DLC. It's not the same kind of Tag Team, of course, but it does show that it's not like they need to be a single entity either way. However, I wonder if Transformation is something that's considered too timely for DLC?. ...Now it makes me hope for a unique Echo Pass at this point. I'd take her either way. Echo, Semi-Clone, Tag Team).

...I just read that Pass 2 is going to be final and there's no additional plans, so well, that was bad timing to say. XD

 

[fogbadge]

Well, yeah, they all had reasons for being cut.

as far as reasons go, not fully existing yet is a pretty good one

 

[CureParfait]

I don't think Spirits deconfirm fighters but I think if they are third party spirits then I feel like there's a lower chance of them making it compared to first party spirits.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

as far as reasons go, not fully existing yet is a pretty good one

Yeah, I didn't really say anything about his cut being more of an injustice than the others. (I'm personally glad they didn't replace Ness with him at the time because that would have broken the original 12).

And also that didn't stop Roy, Corrin, and Byleth. (The latter two being chosen to be added prior to their games being released).

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Yeah, I didn't really say anything about his cut being more of an injustice than the others. (I'm personally glad they didn't replace Ness with him at the time because that would have broken the original 12).

And also that didn't stop Roy, Corrin, and Byleth. (The latter two being chosen to be added prior to their games being released).

It probably had something to do with Mother 3 not being released till Brawl, which is when Lucas being in. So it's more a case of the game getting canned that kept them out, not simply taking a while to release and thus being a promotional timing character.

At least Lucas didn't get Ness cut in Brawl either(though it could've been the case if Mother 3 is worldwide. Sakurai basically said Ness was kept to appeal to Western audiences, so the lack of a translation in a way helped the roster). ...But now that that's over, we should get it localized. >.>

 

[fogbadge]

Yeah, I didn't really say anything about his cut being more of an injustice than the others. (I'm personally glad they didn't replace Ness with him at the time because that would have broken the original 12).

And also that didn't stop Roy, Corrin, and Byleth. (The latter two being chosen to be added prior to their games being released).

well i was going to bring up the fe characters but i could remember the source for the timing of their inclusion being before the game was out, as far as i could remember its was just a fan assumption. anyway the lucas nearly being in melee makes you wonder, if any of their games had been cancelled would they have been cut? its an interesting hypothetical

 

[Mushroomguy12]

well i was going to bring up the fe characters but i could remember the source for the timing of their inclusion being before the game was out, as far as i could remember its was just a fan assumption. anyway the lucas nearly being in melee makes you wonder, if any of their games had been cancelled would they have been cut? its an interesting hypothetical

I do believe Roy's game was delayed (it was supposed to be released before Melee and at the time they didn't know the actual release date). So it was a little bit of a gamble.

 

[fogbadge]

I do believe Roy's game was delayed (it was supposed to be released before Melee and at the time they didn't know the actual release date). So it was a little bit of a gamble.

well theres a difference between delayed and cancelled. both roy and lucas are in pretty unique positions

 

[Powerman293]

I try to keep an open mind with this stuff. I am not even entirely sure post-launch spirits are out of the question of being upgraded if they are pre-Fighter's Pass 2.

 

[Proceleon]

Welp, Challenger Pack 6 will sort this debate once and for all, seeing as it's from ARMS.

We don't know who it is, but it's ARMS.

 

[Hollywoodrok12]

Welp, Challenger Pack 6 will sort this debate once and for all, seeing as it's from ARMS.

We don't know who it is, but it's ARMS.

This is it. If ARMS isn't definitive evidence for one side, then I don't know what is.

 

[Proceleon]

This is it. If ARMS isn't definitive evidence for one side, then I don't know what is.

Exactly. This is gonna be a mad next month.

 

[zferolie]

Exactly. This is gonna be a mad next month.

next 2 months at least, dpending on when in june they reveal it

 

[Hollywoodrok12]

Exactly. This is gonna be a mad next month.

next 2 months at least, dpending on when in june they reveal it

Shouldn't it be 2 with a potential 3rd? April, May and possibly June?

 

[zferolie]

Shouldn't it be 2 with a potential 3rd? April, May and possibly June?

Yeah if its the end of June then its over 3, if its the start of june its barely over 2 months.

 

[fogbadge]

remind me have they said that we're getting more spirits boards with the other dlc fighters?

 

[Rie Sonomura]

remind me have they said that we're getting more spirits boards with the other dlc fighters?

Yes, they are.