Do Spirits Deconfirm? Update: Min Min = Spirits Don't Deconfirm Anymore

[Aetheri]

The real question is: do characters without spirits confirm them? Specifically, fan-favorites without spirits, like Porky, Sylux, Adeline, or even the Flipnote Frog.

Ronald McDonald confirmed!!

 

[RawstyleEevee]

The real question is: do characters without spirits confirm them? Specifically, fan-favorites without spirits, like Porky, Sylux, Adeline, or even the Flipnote Frog.

Sylux is possible as a promotional rep and if he happens as DLC, I feel we will have enough evidence that spirits would deconfirm

 

[SmashChu]

Most likely not. Seems like the Spirits were choosen before the DLC was. Also, the fighter Spirits may just be their Smash artwork. I don't think it matters.

 

[RawstyleEevee]

Most likely not. Seems like the Spirits were choosen before the DLC was. Also, the fighter Spirits may just be their Smash artwork. I don't think it matters.

Basegame fighter spirits aren't their Smash artwork though (minus Cloud, but thats Square being stingy).

This is why we need to see Pirahna Plants Fighting spirit ASAP

 

[SmashChu]

Basegame fighter spirits aren't their Smash artwork though (minus Cloud, but thats Square being stingy).

This is why we need to see Pirahna Plants Fighting spirit ASAP

I'm saying that's something they can do. Basegame is less of an issue because they made the spirits and fighter together. The DLC is being made after everything else has been done so a lot of the character Nintendo may pick would be ones that had spirits as Sakurai pretty much added most 1st party character (and a lot of third party stuff too) as Spirits. Using the Ultimate artwork is a workaround and they already did it for one character.

 

[MacDaddyNook]

I don't quite see Spirits as a hard deconfirmation at the moment. As it stands, pretty much all of Nintendo's, as well as several notable Third-Party, popular characters are either playable or made into a Spirit or NPC. Those that didn't make the cut look to be either incredibly obscure or very minor characters. This severely limits the pool they chance choose from, with the exception being Third-Party IPs they haven't gotten the rights to or characters that didn't exist until after development of Spirits (ie Gen 8, Three Houses).

On thing I think everyone overlooks is that DLC fighters have to be characters the general public would be willing to part with their money for. These characters are sold separately; they can't just piggyback on more popular or well-known characters, as an obscure character in the base game could. I just don't see characters like Adeline, Porky or Style Savvy being someone customers, outside of pockets of internet communities, would really want to buy (no offense to their fans).

So the only paths I could see worth Nintendo's investment would be to either upgrade some spirits, gamble with new unreleased characters or go fully Third-Party with DLC.

 

[SonicMario]

I think we need to take a more balanced look at Spirits. And maybe not use Spirits as the sole reason someone might be "deconfirmed". Because for now, we only have 5 spots to fill. And it might be just competition with 3rd Party characters that obviously wouldn't have Spirits yet because they're entirely unrepresented. I'd highly expect that at least 2 of the 5 will be unrepresented 3rd parties. So really only leaving us with at most 3 spots for any 1st parties. And even among 1st Party characters. It feels strange to be narrowing things down so much to the point that we're only speculating about characters who currently aren't Spirits. If you ask me, that's begging to get people surprised on what our actual DLC ends up being.

I'm willing to say that at the very least, it's UNLIKELY a current spirit will be in the Fighter Pass. Though I would rather that not be the case. But the DLC has been decided before the release of the game and that might be the implication that not many Spirits will be immediately upgraded.

HOWEVER, if there ever turns out to be more characters outside of the Fighter Pass. Whether it's echoes released outside or a 2nd Season. I'd find it hard to really think they'll limit themselves that much just because of the Spirits.

Basically, I don't think the character being a spirit themselves would even be the main factor for why they're not playable. It's the more typical stuff like they prioritized other characters, Nintendo wouldn't put them on the list they gave to Sakurai, Sakurai may choose other characters that are on said list, a 3rd Party company if applicable saying no, and/or Sakurai feels like he's finished working and wants to take a break at last. (Though I do think that part of the recent direct was at least partly played for laughs, if Sakurai's commissioned to make more. I feel wholeheartedly he'd continue to do so. I think he's been known to be a bit of a workaholic by now. But I don't mean any disrespect of course, if he ever announces character DLC is finished whether it's after the Fighter Pass is completed or otherwise. I'd respect his decision)

 

[GhostYB]

saying spirits deconfirm fighters is like saying ridley is too big for smash.

 

[[Maple]]

We may have an answer...

 

[Hollywoodrok12]

We may have an answer...

RIP Shantae, Geno, Elma, Bandana Dee and literally everyone.

I told you so.

 

[RileyXY1]

RIP Shantae, Geno, Elma, Bandana Dee and literally everyone.

I told you so.

I don't think that's what Reggie meant.

 

[RawstyleEevee]

I don't think that's what Reggie meant.

What did Reggie say? (didn't saw the VGA)

 

[Deleted member]

Here’s something in related to this topic for all of you
https://smashboards.com/threads/spirits-don’t-deconfirm.466444/
Enjoy

I was on the RTC thread yesterday, and the topic was about deconfirmations, so I talked why I think spirits DO deconfirm fighters, including some things that weren't discussed here yet:

I missed the Chances for season 2 and predictions for S1, so I'm just gonna say them now: Want: 100% (Prefereably without Sakurai. He deserves his break). As for my chance score: 10%. While I could see Nintendo wanting to make more money with Smash, there's the fact that Sakurai just stopped DLC after only 7 fighters, and is really tired out now to the point in which he expressed his discomfort during the direct.

DLC Predictions:

Spoiler: Fighters 1-3 are leaked.

Steve (Minecraft), Eldrick (Dragon Quest) and Katalina (Granblue Fantasy). These three were leaked by Hitagi, who shares sources with Vergeben, so we know this person should be believed. Hope you didn't want Geno/Sora, Euden or Shantae

4: Byleth (FE Three Houses). Nintendo's picking DLC, so they're gonna want to pick characters to promote their new games. That's how Corrin got into Smash 4. I know some people have been mentioning Edelgard, but, from the looks of it, she's not the protagonist; Byleth is.
5: Gen 8 Pokemon. Same as Byleth, except we actually don't know who they're going to pick since we haven't seen any Gen 8 mons besides Meltan and Melmetal. While Melmetal would work, I doubt he's going to keep his relevance goin into Gen 8.

Now onto todays topic: What are the chances that X deconfirms a character?

Misc Roles: 95%. If a fighter has a role in the game, they probably don't plan on making them a fighter. The remaining 5% is reserved for the few instances where a character is just standing around at the back and having no interaction with the fighters, like Toon Link. Even then, they're still highly unlikely. And for the record. Chrom is most likely an exception, since he's the only one to be both a FS and Fighter at the same time, so he's probably a last-minute addition.

Important person talking about/deconfirming them: 95%. Them talking about the fighter would break any NDA that they have, which would imply that there never was one to begin with. And a deconfirmation is a deconfirmation. I didn't leave it at 100% because there's the off chance that the're just doing it to mess with us and make us think there's no NDA or chance of them appearing.

Assist Trophies/Pokeballs: 100%. These are obvious. They deconfirmed characters since the beginning, and Sakurai has explicitly stated during Brawl and Smash 4 that Walugi wouldn't be joinging the battle due to his AT status. Pokeballs are just Pokemon exclusive ATs that you throw.

Mii Costumes: 100%. Every Mii costume is either based on a previous fighter, based on a fighter appearing in a future game (Chrom, Inkling, etc.) or is not a fighter at all. A Mii costume is not necessarily a hard deconfirmation, but, since we know the DLC fighters have already been decided, a confirmation that the team has no plans to add that fighter to this game.

Spirits: 100%. That is not a typo. Sprits 100% deconfirm fighters.
1:Let me debunk some of the main counterarguments:

A: Fighter Spirit: Fighter Spirits act differently from normal spirits in that they cannot be upgraded or equipped; only looked at. Because of this, you can't just convert a normal spirit to a fighter spirit.

B: Spirits: Each of these spirits are a different version of an existing character. Their spirit counterparts are eached treated as separate from their original character. Kaptain K. Rool is King's alternate Identity, like Dr. Mario. The WFT ones are just embodiments of one of their poses. And Kirby is treated as a different character, just like Kaptain and Dr. Because of their fundemental differences, they're not treated as Fighter Spirits.

C1: Trophies: These 2 came back to Smash 4 after being trophies in Smash 4. This debunks trophy deconfirmations, right? Not necessarily. I think of Lucas and Mewtwo as the exceptions rather than the rule, since they both were already veterans. A newcomer has never sucessfully made the jump in the same game, just like Mii outfits.

C2: Spirits being the same as Trophies: Trophies are figures of characters that don't have any role on the battlefield, while Spirits are the souls of those characters that do have a role on the battlefield. Sakurai even stated that he wanted to incorporate characters outside of Fighters and ATs on the battlefield.

2: DLC was already picked: If Sakurai had plans of making a certain character DLC, then he would have kept them from becoming Spirits.

Spoiler: 3: Hitagi and Vergeben Talk

3: Hitagi. Hitagi shares Vergeben's sources and confirmed that Spirits will not become fighters. After all Verge has gotten right, it wouldnt make sense for Verge, Hitagi and their multiple mutual sources to be frauds.

TL;DR: Important people decinfirming might be lying, but are probably telling the truth, and any role is a deconfirmation, since DLC has already been chosen and Sakurai wouldn't have put them in that role knowing that they'd be fighters later down the line.

Sakurai never said that. Source Gaming references aside, what Sakurai did say was that he wanted to provide a non-repetitive single-player experience where they fight characters in environments that simulate battles agains them. Spirits aren't like trophies, which are just static likenesses that play no role in the actual game. Sprits are representations of the character's soul that does play a role in the actual game. Sprits are a way to implement fighters into the battle without making them fighters, as much as Poke Balls and Assist Trophies; therefore, spirits do deconfirm.

RIP Shantae, Geno, Elma, Bandana Dee and literally everyone.

I told you so.

 

[shocktarts17]

Here’s something in related to this topic for all of you
https://smashboards.com/threads/spirits-don’t-deconfirm.466444/
Enjoy

Oh boy it's so much more fun to have this conversation with people saying that they are 100% right. Okay here we go.

Even so some of the equitable spirits are variations of that fighter like...

I mean I'm not sure if I need to even say anything here but I've highlighted the part from your quote that I'm talking about. You even say yourself that they are variations of the fighter, not the fighter themselves. Unless a spirit is labeled as a variation its safe to assume its the main one.

And let’s not forget that one pikachu spirit that had no variations at all (partner pikachu) which is the same as the fighter.

Except that once again, its clarified how this one is different. You even put it in your post (I highlighted it again for you.)

Sakurai also stated that they are a replacement for trophies and were made as a gameplay equivalent to trophies for a solid single player experience. Plus they aren’t replacements for missing fighters, they just let you simulate battles with them for funsies.

Except he specifically said they were a way to include characters who wouldn't get in otherwise.

And here’s something else to think about ever since smash4 when rayman was a trophy you’ve been asking him to be dlc and now that Rayman is a spirit which is the replacement for trophy’s then why do you say he can’t be dlc because he’s a spirit?

I'm not sure how this shows spirits don't deconfirm

The thing is that this whole thing about “spirits deconfirm is just some fan made rule people make just that someone’s favorite character doesn’t get in like geno,rayman,shantae,bandanna dee,Dixie Kong,and others.

No it's based on statements from Sakurai and logic. The only reason people don't agree with it is because it deconfirms their favorites. I don't think spirits deconfirm because it helps me, it eliminates my 4 most wanted.

Also One of polar pandas sources said if there is a wave 2...assist trophies might be on the table so if even they aren't deconfirmed, why would spirits be automatically deconfirmed?

I'm pretty sure every single person agrees that spirits only deconfirm for Wave 1. If there is a Wave 2 all bets are off.

And who cares if the plant and joker don’t have spirits that’s not even important to worry about and it doesn’t even matter anymore.

Ah the classic, "no one cares about this detail that invalidates my argument so don't bring it up."

And thus that ends my discussion that spirits don’t 100% deconfirm characters!

It was quite riveting.

 

[Deleted member]

I’m Sorry

I did the best I could come up with for this

 

[Door Key Pig]

I mean even if spirits deconfirm, there's still options for a Rhythm Paradise character. If not a multi-character "Rhythm League" consisting of say, Karate Joe and a Chorus Man that might interfere with those being spirits, then Tibby, the latest mascot and only story protagonist of the series, ain't a spirit either and is thus a viable pick.

 

[Hollywoodrok12]

About a week ago, I made another thread about why I think Spirits do deconfirm, and made a long list of evidence for why I think so. However, the two topics counted as being the same thing, so the other thread was taken down. I decided to include my arguments in the original post if anyone's interested.

Edit: And now there are fighters beyond the pass. Do spirits deconfirm for those?

 

[The Rhythm Theif]

saying spirits deconfirm fighters is like saying ridley is too big for smash.

Finally. A man who gets it.

Also, I don't think spirits exactly deconfirm, that's just a stupid fan rule that's basically like using a logical fallacy (which is mistaken reasoning) in an argument (which is the art of persuasion).

 

[Miifighters4Smash5]

The Only things that Deconfirm Fighters are:

1. If they're already Assist Trophies
2. If they're already Mii Fighter Costumes
3. If Sakurai says so

 

[The Rhythm Theif]

The Only things that Deconfirm Fighters are:

1. If they're already Assist Trophies
2. If they're already Mii Fighter Costumes
3. If Sakurai says so

This is why I want Mega Man Zero in Smash: he's a spirit, and spirits don't deconfirm.

 

[Miifighters4Smash5]

This is why I want Mega Man Zero in Smash: he's a spirit, and spirits don't deconfirm.

that's NOT Mega Man; he's Zero!!

P.S. Why would Zero be Included when He's ALREADY A Mii Fighter Costume and an assist Trophy?!!

 

[The Rhythm Theif]

that's NOT Mega Man; he's Zero!!

P.S. Why would Zero be Included when He's ALREADY A Mii Fighter Costume and an assist Trophy?!!

 

[RileyXY1]

I think that base roster Spirits don't deconfirm, but DLC Spirits do.

 

[fogbadge]

The Only things that Deconfirm Fighters are:

1. If they're already Assist Trophies
2. If they're already Mii Fighter Costumes
3. If Sakurai says so

sakurai did deconfirm ridley once

 

[Proceleon]

Wow, it's honestly sad this debate is still happening.
We have more than enough evidence to say that Spirits will never become Fighters.
Exhibit A: Piranha Plant's Spirit was not included in the base game because he was going to be added post-release. If he weren't a Fighter he would've been base game seeing as Plant's an iconic Mario enemy.
Exhibit B: Rex was explicitly deconfirmed as a Fighter due to timing constraints, and was instead added as a Mii Costume and a Spirit.
Exhibit C: While most other releases like Astral Chain and Pokemon SWSH got simple Spirit Events, but Three Houses didn't get one when it released because much like Plant, Byleth and his Spirits were being saved to be added in a Challenger Pack.
Counterpoint 1: While most will point to Lucas & Mewtwo in SSB4, I will point out that Trophies aren't Spirits. Trophies have no practical function outside of collectables, so having more than one Lucas isn't changing anything mechanically. Spirits however are treated like Stickers and do have a tangible impact on gameplay. To make a Spirit into a Fighter, they'd need to take away the boost or effect a Spirits gives to turn it into a Fighter Spirit, which are there to represent the fighter and nothing more. Upgrading a character means changing the function of their Spirit, which simply isn't going to happen.
Counterpoint 2: Some have suggested that Hilda and Demitri's Spirit names being changed means they can upgrade Spirits. This is false. The name is a simple text change, where as stated before changing a Spirit's gameplay function is what's required.

TL;DR: Spirits have been shown to deconfirm. Sakurai may not have said it, but the actions speak for themselves and we should face reality sooner rather than later.

Side question for those on this thread. Why is it you think the rules change between the base game, FP1 and FP2? I hear things like "I couldn't see [character] for FP1, but for FP2 [character] has a chance." all the time, but it just sounds stupid to me. Why is it Fighter Passes are being held to different standards?

 

[Phoenix Douchebag]

Wow, it's honestly sad this debate is still happening.
We have more than enough evidence to say that Spirits will never become Fighters.
Exhibit A: Piranha Plant's Spirit was not included in the base game because he was going to be added post-release. If he weren't a Fighter he would've been base game seeing as Plant's an iconic Mario enemy.
Exhibit B: Rex was explicitly deconfirmed as a Fighter due to timing constraints, and was instead added as a Mii Costume and a Spirit.
Exhibit C: While most other releases like Astral Chain and Pokemon SWSH got simple Spirit Events, but Three Houses didn't get one when it released because much like Plant, Byleth and his Spirits were being saved to be added in a Challenger Pack.
Counterpoint 1: While most will point to Lucas & Mewtwo in SSB4, I will point out that Trophies aren't Spirits. Trophies have no practical function outside of collectables, so having more than one Lucas isn't changing anything mechanically. Spirits however are treated like Stickers and do have a tangible impact on gameplay. To make a Spirit into a Fighter, they'd need to take away the boost or effect a Spirits gives to turn it into a Fighter Spirit, which are there to represent the fighter and nothing more. Upgrading a character means changing the function of their Spirit, which simply isn't going to happen.
Counterpoint 2: Some have suggested that Hilda and Demitri's Spirit names being changed means they can upgrade Spirits. This is false. The name is a simple text change, where as stated before changing a Spirit's gameplay function is what's required.

TL;DR: Spirits have been shown to deconfirm. Sakurai may not have said it, but the actions speak for themselves and we should face reality sooner rather than later.

Side question for those on this thread. Why is it you think the rules change between the base game, FP1 and FP2? I hear things like "I couldn't see [character] for FP1, but for FP2 [character] has a chance." all the time, but it just sounds stupid to me. Why is it Fighter Passes are being held to different standards?

Regarding Mewtwo and Lucas, there's also the fact that they are well........veterans. Veterans are simply a different ballpark from newcomers (ESPECIALLY from New Franchises altogether) it's like when people say that "mii COAStumes DoTN DICOMFIRM BEcauze VetERENZ ALZO Have Mii COZtumz in an attempt to defend characters who have been gutted by Mii costumes (the only time a Mii Costume was shown before a Smash Veteran was Meta Knight in Smash 4's pic of the day blog posts, and that was a deliberate joke made by Sakurai, like the Zero Suit Samus one in the Smash 4 Direct, all the other Mii Costumes of Veterans were shown AFTER the Veteran was confirmed to be in Smash, this includes K.Rool, Chrom, and Isabelle and we only knew of these costumes beign in Smash Ultimate AFTER they were confirmed)

 

[zferolie]

why is it so hard to just say we wait until Sakurai actually says so? lets not just keep making fan rules please, it limits disccusion fully.

Keep your expectations in check, and don't attack or be **** to people who feel spirits do or do not deconfirm.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Wow, it's honestly sad this debate is still happening.
We have more than enough evidence to say that Spirits will never become Fighters.
Exhibit A: Piranha Plant's Spirit was not included in the base game because he was going to be added post-release. If he weren't a Fighter he would've been base game seeing as Plant's an iconic Mario enemy.

Piranha Plant's spirit was not included in the base game because he was planned for the base game and cut for time constraints. You can see differences between the development of him and the FP characters in that he has a Palutena's Guidance and the rest of the DLC doesn't.

Counterpoint 1: While most will point to Lucas & Mewtwo in SSB4, I will point out that Trophies aren't Spirits. Trophies have no practical function outside of collectables, so having more than one Lucas isn't changing anything mechanically. Spirits however are treated like Stickers and do have a tangible impact on gameplay. To make a Spirit into a Fighter, they'd need to take away the boost or effect a Spirits gives to turn it into a Fighter Spirit, which are there to represent the fighter and nothing more. Upgrading a character means changing the function of their Spirit, which simply isn't going to happen.

Or.... they can just have both the Fighter Spirit and the original Spirit alongside each other. They don't have to change the function at all. I really don't see why it's so weird to have that when the Spirits are simple generic stat boosts shared across multiple groups of spirits that you barely see in actual gameplay except for a tiny icon next to your character. There's also the fact that there are already multiple spirits of alternate forms of playable characters, such as Mario and Luigi in Tennis outfits or Wii Fit Trainer doing various poses. You can't even use the Fighter Spirits anyway so what's the point?

Nothing really strange there. Just add Spirit Name (Fighter) after the Spirit just like with the Trophies. Several characters already have multiple Fighter Spirits like Builder Mario and Male and Female Wii Fit Trainers.

Spoiler

Here you go, just add an extra (Fighter) at the end.

Here's how I'd imagine they'd handle the spirit upgrade:
Use different artwork for the Fighter Spirit, and label it "(Fighter)", to differentiate it from the normal spirit.

Example using Geno!: pic.twitter.com/rviUotcp7D

— Eliza | 🥦🍵 (@Eliza_Artz) November 24, 2019

Some more.

Rex Spirit credited to NoponDigi

Shantae and Rayman Spirits Credited to ElizaArtz

Dixie Kong and Impa Spirits credited to yours truly.

Side question for those on this thread. Why is it you think the rules change between the base game, FP1 and FP2? I hear things like "I couldn't see [character] for FP1, but for FP2 [character] has a chance." all the time, but it just sounds stupid to me. Why is it Fighter Passes are being held to different standards?

They are held to different standards because they were presumably developed at different times. Ergo, a character that was originally put in the game as a Spirit is more likely to be upgraded at a later development time than when they were originally put in as a spirit.

 

[Proceleon]

Piranha Plant's spirit was not included in the base game because he was planned for the base game and cut for time constraints. You can see differences between the development of him and the FP characters in that he has a Palutena's Guidance and the rest of the DLC doesn't.

A pre-purchase bonus character having a PG isn't that much of a stretch considering they would've been developed at the same time as the game, allowing new lines to be made in a timely manner. The DLC just recycles SSB4's lines.

Or.... they can just have both the Fighter Spirit and the original Spirit alongside each other. They don't have to change the function at all. I really don't see why it's so weird to have that when the Spirits are simple generic stat boosts shared across multiple groups of spirits that you barely see in actual gameplay except for a tiny icon next to your character. There's also the fact that there are already multiple spirits of alternate forms of playable characters, such as Mario and Luigi in Tennis outfits or Wii Fit Trainer doing various poses. You can't even use the Fighter Spirits anyway so what's the point?

Nothing really strange there. Just add Spirit Name (Fighter) after the Spirit just like with the Trophies. Several characters already have multiple Fighter Spirits like Builder Mario and Male and Female Wii Fit Trainers.

See, there's a problem there. Fighter Spirits are for all intents and purposes the definitive version of their characters. Builder Mario and Tennis Aces Mario may still be Mario, but the Fighter Spirits is THE Mario. Same goes for Luigi and K. Rool. K. Roolenstein and Kaptain K Rool are the personas, where the King K. Rool Spirit is THE K. Rool. The Wii Fit example is completely invalid since it's showing the pose itself and not necessarily the Trainer.

They are held to different standards because they were presumably developed at different times. Ergo, a character that was originally put in the game as a Spirit is more likely to be upgraded at a later development time than when they were originally put in as a spirit.

Different development times hardly make a difference. A Spirit isn't going to magically be more likely because time has passed.

why is it so hard to just say we wait until Sakurai actually says so? lets not just keep making fan rules please, it limits disccusion fully.

Keep your expectations in check, and don't attack or be **** to people who feel spirits do or do not deconfirm.

Because Sakurai won't say so, and his actions and development decisions have already said enough. It's not a fan-made rule, it is based on over a year's worth of evidence. That evidence IS what's keeping my expectations in check, otherwise I'd just be brainlessly spouting characters that realistically don't have a chance because they're already in the game as a Spirit. What I feel makes no odds, and I'm not going to let bias towards a character get my hopes up when the evidence says otherwise.

 

[fogbadge]

heres an idea why dont we all wait and see

 

[Powerman293]

I never believed in this "rule" anyways. MAAYYYBE for FP1. But not at all for Fighter's Pass 2. Spirits are so abundant they're essentially worthless. A character having a spirit means very little compared to being an assist trophy or a costume.

 

[HansShotFirst20]

Hmmm.

For post-launch spirits, 100%
For base game spirits, 50/50

 

[OnyanRings]

I kinda wanna hope that spirits do matter with character inclusions, mainly because my most wanted don't have spirits (Adeleine, Taranza & Porky)

But all we can do is wait for now, anything's possible with Sakurai.

 

[Proceleon]

heres an idea why dont we all wait and see

Uhh, because that literally defeats the purpose of this thread.

I never believed in this "rule" anyways. MAAYYYBE for FP1. But not at all for Fighter's Pass 2. Spirits are so abundant they're essentially worthless. A character having a spirit means very little compared to being an assist trophy or a costume.

Again, I ask how FP2 is any different from FP1. There's no real difference; they're still DLC, so they'll be held to exactly the same standard.

 

[Trevenant]

There isn’t any ‘evidence’ to suggest anything. We aren’t in court trying to convict someone for a crime with proof they did it as it has there finger prints are all over it. We don’t know.

There really isn’t any evidence, any proof, there isn’t anything that we can definitively suggest one way or the other. We probably can’t sway in one way or the other. Any points like PP was a spirit or what have you can’t be applied now because that was for the first pass and it’s heavily implied that piranha plant was meant to be for base game anyway such as his amiibo releasing so early, the fact that he was an early purchase bonus which suggests they could have pushed him to the dlc as a bonus etc.

No matter what anyone says they are going to have to face the fact that we don’t know. It doesn’t matter what debates and arguments you may start as that line can just deflect them straight back at their line of fire. I think dlc spirits probably deconfirm but that’s me. My main point is there is no evidence that is definitive like some are claiming

I should clarify I’m talking about saying base game spirits still deconfirm. We won’t have any idea until we see the first dlc then we can make an educated guess. Of course I’m not saying that people shouldn’t make points but I may have gotten a bit off track with what I was trying to say which was there is no evidence as evidence suggests that something is to be fully believed or not. It’s only speculation

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Since this was brought back:

base game spirits COULD be promoted, but we won’t know for sure until it happens if it does. The fact that spirit names can be changed (like “Hilda (The Legend of Zelda)” and “Hilda (Fire Emblem)”) as well as some event spirits being updated with DLC content (like the Cuphead spirit event depending on if you have the Cuphead costume) suggests Spirits are flexible.

I have slightly less hope for Event Spirits added after release though. Third Party Event Spirits are a hard deconfirm imo as they already negotiated with the third party for patched in Spirits, why go back later? Only case you could is if the Third Party Spirit is a base game Spirit. First Party Event Spirits... it depends. I think Astral Chain is for sure out. Since the SwSh Spirits only had Corviknight, Zacian/Zamazenta and the three starters in starter form, MAYBE an evolved version like Rillaboom could happen or even someone like Zarude but I’m not holding my breath

 

[Proceleon]

I should clarify I’m talking about saying base game spirits still deconfirm. We won’t have any idea until we see the first dlc then we can make an educated guess. Of course I’m not saying that people shouldn’t make points but I may have gotten a bit off track with what I was trying to say which was there is no evidence as evidence suggests that something is to be fully believed or not. It’s only speculation

If that's your definition of evidence then allow me to rephrase. The developmental choices and patterns regarding who is a Fighter and who is DLC have been quite consistent over the course of FP1 (Including Plant) - there has been no overlap whatsoever - so we can analyse this and come to an educated conclusion, which is what I have been doing. This is what I have been describing as evidence.
This isn't like SSB4 where our first DLC was a missing veteran. We've already seen how Ultimate's handling DLC with FP1, and FP2 is more of the same.

Since this was brought back:

base game spirits COULD be promoted, but we won’t know for sure until it happens if it does. The fact that spirit names can be changed (like “Hilda (The Legend of Zelda)” and “Hilda (Fire Emblem)”) as well as some event spirits being updated with DLC content (like the Cuphead spirit event depending on if you have the Cuphead costume) suggests Spirits are flexible.

Have you considered that if a character like Geno or Shantae were going to be playable, they would've been playable at launch rather than being made a Spirit?
And yes, names and Spirit Battles can be tweaked, but both those points completely ignore the stat boosts and abilities Spirits give, which is the core part of a Spirit. It would affect gameplay if Viridi were made playable because we'd have to lose one of the few Metal Killer Spirits to make her a Fighter Spirit. These things have important functions, and compared to those Event tweaking and text changes mean nothing when arguing viability.

 

[chocolatejr9]

If that's your definition of evidence then allow me to rephrase. The developmental choices and patterns regarding who is a Fighter and who is DLC have been quite consistent over the course of FP1 (Including Plant) - there has been no overlap whatsoever - so we can analyse this and come to an educated conclusion, which is what I have been doing. This is what I have been describing as evidence.
This isn't like SSB4 where our first DLC was a missing veteran. We've already seen how Ultimate's handling DLC with FP1, and FP2 is more of the same.


Have you considered that if a character like Geno or Shantae were going to be playable, they would've been playable at launch rather than being made a Spirit?
And yes, names and Spirit Battles can be tweaked, but both those points completely ignore the stat boosts and abilities Spirits give, which is the core part of a Spirit. It would affect gameplay if Viridi were made playable because we'd have to lose one of the few Metal Killer Spirits to make her a Fighter Spirit. These things have important functions, and compared to those Event tweaking and text changes mean nothing when arguing viability.

If the problem is the stats, can't you just replace the image with something else? Like if Viridi became playable, you could take her image, make it into a Fighter Spirit, and use the stats from her old Spirit for another character who DOESN'T have a Spirit. Does that make any sense?

 

[Rie Sonomura]

If the problem is the stats, can't you just replace the image with something else? Like if Viridi became playable, you could take her image, make it into a Fighter Spirit, and use the stats from her old Spirit for another character who DOESN'T have a Spirit. Does that make any sense?

That or use a different image for her Fighter Spirit, like her fighter render. Cloud and the Robins do that

 

[Phoenix Douchebag]

Hmmm.

For post-launch spirits, 100%
For base game spirits, 50/50

Pretty much how i see it. I think what bothers me is what that implies for FP2, In other words all new characters from new franchises not represented in Smash which means it's a 99% chance of all of them beign Third Parties, while Nintendo characters get only Byleth from Pass 1 and that's it.