Do Spirits Deconfirm? Update: Min Min = Spirits Don't Deconfirm Anymore

Can Spirits still be DLC fighters?


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CHAMPIONX9

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#41
People are assuming that all the big 1st parties are spirits but the game hasn't even come out yet. There could be a few characters missing but it would be difficult to notice without playing the mode, and unlocking and looking at all the different spirits.
 

zferolie

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#42
People are assuming that all the big 1st parties are spirits but the game hasn't even come out yet. There could be a few characters missing but it would be difficult to notice without playing the mode, and unlocking and looking at all the different spirits.
We have seen what over 500 spirits now? maybe even more this past week? A lot of the big names are covered, like Bandana waddle Dee being one of the key front runners. Almost every retro character is spirits already as well. I can't even think of a nintendo character not a spirit yet...
 
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Pinguino21v

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#43
People are assuming that all the big 1st parties are spirits but the game hasn't even come out yet. There could be a few characters missing but it would be difficult to notice without playing the mode, and unlocking and looking at all the different spirits.
I'm with zferolie on this one. The remaining top picks first party characters who are not already fighters have all been seen as spirits, AT and/or costume now: Waluigi, Isaac, BWD, Elma, Rex, Dixie, several Zelda contenders, Paper Mario, Chibi Robo, Springman, Ray MK III, Rythm Heaven characters...

Like I said on other thread, the remaining possibilities are small. It's either:
  • Really obscure characters. But that won't sell well, so it won't be that.
  • Not represented franchises and future games characters. That can be the case for some like Dragon Quest, Minecraft or Phoenix Wright, or even the future Fire Emblem or Pokémon generation, but I really can't see all of the 5 DLC being that.
  • Being a spirit means nothing and, if we want to go further, we may even think that being an AT neither. Some will get upgraded as fighters.
I believe it will be a mix of the 2nd and 3rd option. Hopefully, we will have several waves of DLC.
 

CHAMPIONX9

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#45
I'm with zferolie on this one. The remaining top picks first party characters who are not already fighters have all been seen as spirits, AT and/or costume now: Waluigi, Isaac, BWD, Elma, Rex, Dixie, several Zelda contenders, Paper Mario, Chibi Robo, Springman, Ray MK III, Rythm Heaven characters...

Like I said on other thread, the remaining possibilities are small. It's either:
  • Really obscure characters. But that won't sell well, so it won't be that.
  • Not represented franchises and future games characters. That can be the case for some like Dragon Quest, Minecraft or Phoenix Wright, or even the future Fire Emblem or Pokémon generation, but I really can't see all of the 5 DLC being that.
  • Being a spirit means nothing and, if we want to go further, we may even think that being an AT neither. Some will get upgraded as fighters.
I believe it will be a mix of the 2nd and 3rd option. Hopefully, we will have several waves of DLC.
Only 5 out of the many thousands of characters can be dlc, so the fact that most favorites are spirits (RIP in my mind) doesn't mean much. Only a very small minority can become characters.
 

Fatmanonice

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#46
Well, considering how roughly 550+ have already been shown and pretty much every popular first/second character has been shown at this point aside from some weird yet notable exceptions (Hades and Medusa, literally anything from Hyrule Warriors, etc), it super slims down DLC picks if true.
 

KingofUSA85

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#47
At this point there are virtually only 2 possibilities for DLC:

1. DLC will upgrade some spirits, costumes, or possibly even Assist Trophies to playable characters.

2. DLC will exclusively be 3rd party.
 

osby

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#49
Well, considering how roughly 550+ have already been shown and pretty much every popular first/second character has been shown at this point aside from some weird yet notable exceptions (Hades and Medusa, literally anything from Hyrule Warriors, etc), it super slims down DLC picks if true.
Can't show it, but Hades is a Spirit.
 

zferolie

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#50
I'm with zferolie on this one. The remaining top picks first party characters who are not already fighters have all been seen as spirits, AT and/or costume now: Waluigi, Isaac, BWD, Elma, Rex, Dixie, several Zelda contenders, Paper Mario, Chibi Robo, Springman, Ray MK III, Rythm Heaven characters...

Like I said on other thread, the remaining possibilities are small. It's either:
  • Really obscure characters. But that won't sell well, so it won't be that.
  • Not represented franchises and future games characters. That can be the case for some like Dragon Quest, Minecraft or Phoenix Wright, or even the future Fire Emblem or Pokémon generation, but I really can't see all of the 5 DLC being that.
  • Being a spirit means nothing and, if we want to go further, we may even think that being an AT neither. Some will get upgraded as fighters.
I believe it will be a mix of the 2nd and 3rd option. Hopefully, we will have several waves of DLC.
Yeah really all the well known characters have been shown. Just very onscure and not main characters.

I do think we will have more then just 1 wave of DLC. Nintendo wants to support games long term with DLC(mario kart 8 is still getting DLC), and it would be insane not to keep releasing passes. I think we will get a total of 2-3 packs, for 15 DLC fighters. We also may get some echos as free additions.

Only 5 out of the many thousands of characters can be dlc, so the fact that most favorites are spirits (RIP in my mind) doesn't mean much. Only a very small minority can become characters.
but can you name a single main character from a first party nintendo game not already shown as a spirit or AT of Mii costume? Only one I can think of is Jill Dozer.

Well, considering how roughly 550+ have already been shown and pretty much every popular first/second character has been shown at this point aside from some weird yet notable exceptions (Hades and Medusa, literally anything from Hyrule Warriors, etc), it super slims down DLC picks if true.
Yeah Hades supposidly has been shown, but no medusa is surprising. maybe she is a boss too? And I am surprised by no Hyrule warriors, but I thought I heard someone saw Lana?
 

Rie Sonomura

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#51
Yeah. If Spirits are deconfirmations then that would mean that DLC will be entirely comprised of third parties without representation in the base roster and upcoming first party characters like a FE 3 Houses character or a Gen 8 Pokemon. I do not see this as realistic.
Way I see it, if it’s too early for the likes of Rex (Mii costume) and Spring-Man (Assist Trophy), then it’s definitely too early for a Three Houses Lord or a Gen 8 Pokémon or even anyone from Dragalia Lost.

For all we know Piranha Plant might have a spirit in base (even though we haven’t seen it yet), and Spirits are probably chosen before DLC.
 
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CHAMPIONX9

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#52
but can you name a single main character from a first party nintendo game not already shown as a spirit or AT of Mii costume? Only one I can think of is Jill Dozer.
Lets look at the last dlc. The new characters (exclude veterans) were ryu, cloud, corrin, and bayonetta.
The developers of the games were
Ryu -> Capcom
Cloud -> Square
Bayonetta -> Platinum Games
Corrin -> Nintendo

So 3/4 of the new characters were from third parties.
The important difference being that this time nintendo chose what was available. All the dlc had upcoming games, so maybe the choices made wont feel that different since it seems still business driven. Assuming a business driven outcome. Here are possibilities:
  • The World Ends With You Final Remix; Neku or something in that vain
  • Mario Bros Deluxe; if not spirits nabbit, toadette, or another character in that game (Piranha plant might count towards that)
  • Luigi's Mansion 3; Ghost character, or new character, Professer Egad if not a spirit
  • Ace Attorney 6; Numerous characters, if not staring phoenix wright
  • Kingdom Hearts 3 (which might be ported to switch by the time dlc rolls out); Sora, and others i guess
  • Octopath Traveler; Numerous types of characters might appeal to Sakurai if given as an option
  • Pokemon Switch game 2019 and Fire Emblem: Three Houses (I hate this option, but Sakurai can do what he wants); With so many characters there's bound to be many that are not spirits.
  • Yoshi's Wooly World; new characters, maybe wool version of a character
  • DAEMON X MACHINA; some mech suit pilot (they are cybernetically augmented.)
  • Dragon Quest [Dragon Quest Builders and Ports]; Somebody, not familiar with the series
  • Okami Hd Switch (if offered as an option. I doubt ports of old games like Skyrim and Okami are likely. Mostly likely the DLC will come from recent titles); Okami
 
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#53
I strongly believe that spirits don't deconfirm characters, otherwise the pool of viable characters for DLC would be far too small. Frankly, it's annoying to see certain character supporters using spirits as "evidence" that their characters are more likely.
 

VashTehStampede

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#54
I was on the RTC thread yesterday, and the topic was about deconfirmations, so I talked why I think spirits DO deconfirm fighters, including some things that weren't discussed here yet:
Totally agree with everything you said here. This has been my thought process on each point you brought up, especially the Lucas/ mewtwo part
 
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#55
People who support characters who have been shown as spirits want to believe that they don't deconfirm characters.

People who support characters who have not been shown as spirits want to believe that they actually deconfirm characters so the competition is deconfirmed.

The only true reply to the question in the title of the thread is: "We don't know yet."
Everything that goes beyond this reply, is box/blog theory tier speculation.

My opinion on the matter (speculation, I can be completely wrong):
I'm not sure if they deconfirm characters or not, but I'm more toward the opinion that they deconfirm the characters.
Unlike the trophies, Spirits have a similar function as the Miis. Sakurai made the Miis playable so that people can create their own character even if that character is not in the roster.
Spirits are there so that everyone can equip their favorite characters and play with them at their side despite them not being in the roster.
Apparently, variations of the characters are allowed to be spirits (including costumes, such as Meta Ridley and Male Wii Fit Trainer), but it seems that the actual playable characters (the versions that appear on the mural) have a different type of spirits (fighter spirits), and I think that if a character appears as a spirit but not as a fighter spirit, it's likely that said character won't be playable, unless it's a variation (Yarn Yoshi, for example).

I don't think "If Spirits deconfirm characters then Nintendo has no valid options for DLCs" makes sense at all.
If we are getting third parties, they can be missing and nobody would notice (including Geno who apparently is an icon but not a spirit yet), spirits from new games (such as the almost-mandatory Gen 8 Pokèmon, or Metroid Prime 4 content) can't be in the base game because they aren't announced/shown yet, and so on.

Another example is:
The Chorus Kids have a spirit, where only the Chorus Kids appear. They are apparently deconfirmed, but then, they are announced as DLC, not as Chorus Kids, but as Glee Club, with the conductor as the main character controlled by the player, and the Chorus Kids working similar to the Pikmins (like in the Grinch Leak).
The "Chorus Kids" spirit is considered a regular spirit and a variation of the actual character, while "Glee Club" is a Fighter Spirit and represents the actual character in the roster.
Stuff like this can happen, and it can be completely unpredictable.
So, I think that they deconfirm characters, but Sakurai can play some tricks to confuse and surprise us.

With those examples, we can create a fake list of characters: Let's assume that Geno is the Square rep and we are also getting Steve:

-Steve
-Geno
-Gen 8 Pokèmon
-Metroid Prime 4 rep
-Glee Club

Spirits can deconfirm characters and Nintendo can still find enough characters that make sense and fill the 5 slots, and we wouldn't even notice that from the list of spirits in the base game. This can totally happen.
 
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zferolie

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#56
Lets look at the last dlc. The new characters (exclude veterans) were ryu, cloud, corrin, and bayonetta.
The developers of the games were
Ryu -> Capcom
Cloud -> Square
Bayonetta -> Platinum Games
Corrin -> Nintendo

So 3/4 of the new characters were from third parties.
The important difference being that this time nintendo chose what was available. All the dlc had upcoming games, so maybe the choices made wont feel that different since it seems still business driven. Assuming a business driven outcome. Here are possibilities:
  • The World Ends With You Final Remix; Neku or something in that vain
  • Mario Bros Deluxe; if not spirits nabbit, toadette, or another character in that game (Piranha plant might count towards that)
  • Luigi's Mansion 3; Ghost character, or new character, Professer Egad if not a spirit
  • Ace Attorney 6; Numerous characters, if not staring phoenix wright
  • Kingdom Hearts 3 (which might be ported to switch by the time dlc rolls out); Sora, and others i guess
  • Octopath Traveler; Numerous types of characters might appeal to Sakurai if given as an option
  • Pokemon Switch game 2019 and Fire Emblem: Three Houses (I hate this option, but Sakurai can do what he wants); With so many characters there's bound to be many that are not spirits.
  • Yoshi's Wooly World; new characters, maybe wool version of a character
  • DAEMON X MACHINA; some mech suit pilot (they are cybernetically augmented.)
  • Dragon Quest [Dragon Quest Builders and Ports]; Somebody, not familiar with the series
  • Okami Hd Switch (if offered as an option. I doubt ports of old games like Skyrim and Okami are likely. Mostly likely the DLC will come from recent titles); Okami
Yeah, I can see the majority of the DLC characters being third party. And right now if Spirits do deconfirm fighters(at least this first round), then yeah the only nintendo characters we can get are from future games. From a business veiw that makes sense, and can see it happening. But honestly we just don't know till we hear from nintendo or see the dlc characters. Kinda wish they would say something.

For Nintendo, as of now, Yoshi's Wolly world, Prime 4, Pokemon and FE 2019, and DxM are the only games we could get a character from. There are a few 1st party ones we still haven't seen, like Rhythnm Gal from Rhythnm heaven, and Medusa from KI.
 
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#57
I don't think it deconfirms fighters
While yes, Spirits do have a more active role than Trophies, I can't help but think it's the same situation of Mewtwo and Lucas in SSB4, where them as fighters and their regular trophies coexisted
I think, say, Dixie can coexist as a spirit and a fighter. I think they made spirits thinking of the base roster only, now DLC is a whole another story. Bc as people pointed out, first-party wise, the number of possible characters if Spirits are indeed deconfirmations is absolutely limited
 

dezeray112

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#58
It is hard to say at the moment, although I don't feel that they would deconfirm their chances of being playable.

If Spirits do have similar characteristics to the collectable trophies, then even though we had seen trophies of Mewtwo and Lucas in the Wii-U/3DS versions, they were being made as DLC fighters.
 
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Aetheri

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#61
While I can see why people may think any Spirits won't be deconfirmed, there's a few things that came up that have me thinking otherwise.

1) When spirits were revealed Sakurai made a distinction between characters that were spirits and characters that are fighters

2) There's a separate group of spirits based off of the fighters called Fighter Spirits, which function differently than other spirits, and that is that they are unequippable, which seems like a huge distinction from all the spirits that are equippable

3) The DLC was already decided, as well as which ever characters are going to be spirits in the base game, it doesn't take much to put a character in as a spirit and it wouldn't be much time lost if they remove that character later because they were chosen for DLC

4) Big nail in the coffin IMO...ALTHOUGH keep in mind I could be wrong since I'm avoiding leaks for the most part but this is what I heard...
Piranha Plant does NOT have a spirit, Piranha Plant is an iconic Mario enemy and much MUCH more obscure enemies and characters have been made into spirits, so you'd think he'd already be in the game as a spirit, but as my previous point suggested it may have been removed or held off because he's coming later as DLC

Another thing to keep in mind, regarding the points about Mewtwo's and Lucas's trophies. If I remember correctly Sakurai did not initially intend on having any DLC for Smash 4 but decided last minute, and Mewtwo and Lucas were the first two characters chosen at the time, mainly because of their status as popular veterans. And considering the 5 upcoming DLC fighters have already been decided before the game's launch, there's strong intent beforehand which means which ever characters are spirits in the base game are not likely part of the 5 planned characters.

I do hope I'm wrong because pretty much all of my first party wants are all spirits; Midna (frikkin twice as a spirit and a assist trophy, Triple RIP), Elma, Impa, Skull Kid (literally same as Midna, Triple RIP), etc. But I'm not holding my breath. At least I have hope for most of my third party wants.
 
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Luigifan18

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#62
I highly doubt a Spirit will be removed if and when the character in question gets promoted to playable status in DLC; that would be a surefire way to piss off everybody who put time, effort, and resources such as snacks, coins, and Spirit Points into acquiring and raising that Spirit. I can definitely see them using a separate artwork (which may or may not be the official Ultimate render a la Cloud) for that character's Fighter Spirit instead, or having the playable appearance be redesigned somewhat to not resemble their Spirit version 1:1, but removing an already-existing Spirit once the game is released would be a colossally stupid move on Nintendo's part, and I can't see them being unaware of the stupidity of eliminating part of a player's collection. Also, I can't see Spirits being deconfirmations because that massively limits the possible pool of DLC candidates.
 
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#63
While yes, Spirits do have a more active role than Trophies, I can't help but think it's the same situation of Mewtwo and Lucas in SSB4, where them as fighters and their regular trophies coexisted
If Spirits do have similar characteristics to the collectable trophies, then even though we had seen trophies of Mewtwo and Lucas in the Wii-U/3DS versions, they were being made as DLC fighters.
I don't think so, i mean the Mewtwo trophy in Smash4 didn't deconfirm him from being DLC later on, and Spirits are pretty much a replacement of Trophies.
Do we have confirmation that they planned to add Mewtwo and Lucas back from the start as DLC? If not I don't think the same thing applies. Not to mention trying to apply the same logic that worked for returning vets DLC to new character DLC seems like comparing apples and oranges.
 

Aetheri

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#64
I highly doubt a Spirit will be removed if and when the character in question gets promoted to playable status in DLC; that would be a surefire way to piss off everybody who put time, effort, and resources such as snacks, coins, and Spirit Points into acquiring and raising that Spirit. I can definitely see them using a separate artwork (which may or may not be the official Ultimate render a la Cloud) for that character's Fighter Spirit instead, or having the playable appearance be redesigned somewhat to not resemble their Spirit version 1:1, but removing an already-existing Spirit once the game is released would be a colossally stupid move on Nintendo's part, and I can't see them being unaware of the stupidity of eliminating part of a player's collection. Also, I can't see Spirits being deconfirmations because that massively limits the possible pool of DLC candidates.
When I say a spirit is removed I mean during the game's development. Not in the final build after the game is released to the public.
 

Luigifan18

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#65
When I say a spirit is removed I mean during the game's development. Not in the final build after the game is released to the public.
Even with that being the case, Spirits being deconfirmations makes it much, much easier for us to guess the DLC characters by process of elimination; have you seen how much the Porky and Adeline support threads have blown up since the datamine?! However, knowing who the DLC characters are too substantially far ahead of time will kill a lot of hype for the DLC (and interest in the Fighter Pass), if only because the fanbases of the characters who didn't make it will be deflated; that's just not good marketing on Nintendo or Sakurai's end (and before you bring up Kencineroar and Pirahna Plant, one marketing blunder is not a sign of complete marketing incompetence, and Kencineroar+PP being a marketing blunder in the first place is fairly debatable). I don't have time to go looking for the sources, but I do know Sakurai has gone on record as stating that being present in Ultimate as a Spirit is not an impediment to a character becoming playable as DLC. So that's the end of that.
 
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#66
Even with that being the case, Spirits being deconfirmations makes it much, much easier for us to guess the DLC characters by process of elimination; have you seen how much the Porky and Adeline support threads have blown up since the datamine?! However, knowing who the DLC characters are too substantially far ahead of time will kill a lot of hype for the DLC (and interest in the Fighter Pass), if only because the fanbases of the characters who didn't make it will be deflated; that's just not good marketing on Nintendo or Sakurai's end (and before you bring up Kencineroar and Pirahna Plant, one marketing blunder is not a sign of complete marketing incompetence, and Kencineroar+PP being a marketing blunder in the first place is fairly debatable). I don't have time to go looking for the sources, but I do know Sakurai has gone on record as stating that being present in Ultimate as a Spirit is not an impediment to a character becoming playable as DLC. So that's the end of that.
Sakurai never said that. Source Gaming references aside, what Sakurai did say was that he wanted to provide a non-repetitive single-player experience where they fight characters in environments that simulate battles agains them. Spirits aren't like trophies, which are just static likenesses that play no role in the actual game. Sprits are representations of the character's soul that does play a role in the actual game. Sprits are a way to implement fighters into the battle without making them fighters, as much as Poke Balls and Assist Trophies; therefore, spirits do deconfirm.
 
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#69
Do we have confirmation that they planned to add Mewtwo and Lucas back from the start as DLC? If not I don't think the same thing applies. Not to mention trying to apply the same logic that worked for returning vets DLC to new character DLC seems like comparing apples and oranges.
I don't think we have, all we know is that Mewtwo, Lucas and etc have started development after the game finished
and I don't see the difference between returning vets and new characters, all are characters nonetheless, new additions to a roster
 
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#70
I don't think we have, all we know is that Mewtwo, Lucas and etc have started development after the game finished
and I don't see the difference between returning vets and new characters, all are characters nonetheless, new additions to a roster
Yes but returning vets have a specific reason for inclusion that is separate from their home game. Its the same reason Dr. Mario, Pichu, Young Link, and Roy are back when other more deserving reps from their series might make more sense. Roy wasn't selected as DLC because hes relevant to the FE series (he isn't) or because hes popular with FE fans (he isn't), he was selected because the Smash fans wanted him back as a returning vet. No newcomer would have that same reasoning for DLC inclusion.
 

TheBeastHimself

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#71
I'm trying to look at this as realistically and logically as I can, and honestly, I can't see how a bunch of pictures disconfirms a character. That's over a 1,000 characters out of the running because of a literal picture.
 
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#72
I'm trying to look at this as realistically and logically as I can, and honestly, I can't see how a bunch of pictures disconfirms a character. That's over a 1,000 characters out of the running because of a literal picture.
You're looking at it backwards, its not that they aren't DLC because they are Spirits its that they are Spirits because they were already decided as not being DLC.
 

TheBeastHimself

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#73
You're looking at it backwards, its not that they aren't DLC because they are Spirits its that they are Spirits because they were already decided as not being DLC.
Ohhhhh that makes more sense. The whole situation is a bit confusing though, because Sakurai said DLC development wouldn't start until after the game is launched (after Spirits were already implemented) but I can totally see that as a possibility.
 

Luigifan18

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#74
Yes but returning vets have a specific reason for inclusion that is separate from their home game. Its the same reason Dr. Mario, Pichu, Young Link, and Roy are back when other more deserving reps from their series might make more sense. Roy wasn't selected as DLC because hes relevant to the FE series (he isn't) or because hes popular with FE fans (he isn't), he was selected because the Smash fans wanted him back as a returning vet. No newcomer would have that same reasoning for DLC inclusion.
Geno is more popular among Smash fans than Mario fans.
 
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#76
With all the evidence from the datamines, I lean more to yes, however I will give my final verdict once we know how Piranha Plants Fighter spirit is his Smash render, or if its like all the other Fighter Spirits(besides Cloud, but thats Square being a mess 99%).

Fighter Spirits in the basegame are the real character, and the spirit is based on official promotional art (Samus's fighter spirit = her Samus Returns artwork and Richter(to counter Cloud arguments) is his Rondo of Blood artwork for example)

Alternate forms of characters are also not named as that character, but they refer to their forms( all the other Samus spirits are named after her suits and not the characters. Same applies to Link, Mario & WFT)

So yeah it depends on Pirahna Plant for me or if the first DLC character is someone like Rex & Pyra
 
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#77
With all the evidence from the datamines, I lean more to yes, however I will give my final verdict once we know how Piranha Plants Fighter spirit is his Smash render, or if its like all the other Fighter Spirits(besides Cloud, but thats Square being a mess 99%).

Fighter Spirits in the basegame are the real character, and the spirit is based on official promotional art (Samus's fighter spirit = her Samus Returns artwork and Richter(to counter Cloud arguments) is his Rondo of Blood artwork for example)

Alternate forms of characters are also not named as that character, but they refer to their forms( all the other Samus spirits are named after her suits and not the characters. Same applies to Link, Mario & WFT)

So yeah it depends on Pirahna Plant for me or if the first DLC character is someone like Rex & Pyra
According to the leaked list he (EDIT: Piranha Plant) does not
 
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#78
According to the leaked list he does not
Cloud or Pirahana Plant? Because I know Cloud uses his smash render for his fighter spirit, while like I said Richter gets his Rondo of Blood artwork.

Pirahna Plant is also missing as a spirit, unless there was a new breakthrough?
 
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