Do Brawl CPUs learn?

[Tane]

I vote they do, as shown in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfMOVHKyCDc

Any thoughts? I know a lot of people firmly stand behind the opinion that they cannot learn.

 

[Claire Diviner]

There's been several threads like this, I believe. To give my two cents (and a corn chip), I believe CPUs learn during a match, and try tactics based on what you're using (i.e. attack patterns, habits, etc.). They learn to adapt using various strategies programmed into their AI, but that's about it. CPUs aren't smart enough to use things, like DACUS, Quick Attack Cancel, Glide Tossing, etc.. After a match is over, CPUs pretty much have to "relearn" your tactics and strats. This is my theory, at least. If I'm wrong, someone correct me.

 

[Gatlin]

Pretty much what Sol Diviner said. CPU's in Brawl do not have the capability to learn, as they do not have a brain. They are nothing more than a programmed device only doing what it was programmed to do. Saying a CPU can learn is similar to telling a toaster that today's piece of toast was amazing, and it should make it like that every time.

 

[Tane]

Pretty much what Sol Diviner said. CPU's in Brawl do not have the capability to learn, as they do not have a brain. They are nothing more than a programmed device only doing what it was programmed to do. Saying a CPU can learn is similar to telling a toaster that today's piece of toast was amazing, and it should make it like that every time.

Interesting way to put it. I think that they can keep some memory, seeing as my level 9 Pikachu (I main Pika) attempts to QAC and chain grab on a regular basis, though it can't quite do either. But it makes the attempt to a lot. It also shorthops to fair a whole lot. This video shows that a CPU held over information from a previous match: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMcEUsMd9Cw

 

[shanus]

CPUs do not learn in any way. AI scripting is mostly understood now.

 

[supersmash43]

All I can say is that the CPU in Brawl is understandably significantly smarter than Melee's CPU (given that the game was developed about 5 years after Melee and the advances in AI), but it still isn't anything comparable to the flexibility of a good human player in terms of adaptability.

 

[EverythingSmash]

Id have to agree with most people here they simply don't learn, I kill CPU's all the time in the same exact way time after time, they'll never learn. Although the previous two smash game CPU's were much worst.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Popping in here to say no they don't.

Seriously, there is nowhere for them to store this information. For them to learn, they would have to store this learned information, and no information is stored.

 

[Tane]

None of these anti-learning comments have responded to any of the videos. How would any of you describe what is happening in those videos?

 

[Claire Diviner]

None of these anti-learning comments have responded to any of the videos. How would any of you describe what is happening in those videos?

CPUs try to use any kind of tactic they see in a match against the player, but only during that match. In the video, the player had to "teabag" excessively for the CPU to mimic the action in the match. In order for the CPU to mimic the action again, it has to "relearn" how to do it, and it probably sees it as some sort of tactic used to get an edge (when clearly, teabagging does nothing). An example is when I've seen CPUs mimic my dash-dancing, but they don't really do anything with it (not that one can do much of anything with dash-dancing in Brawl to begin with). However, after the match ended, the CPU will not dash-dance again, unless it sees me doing it. Again, it's programmed to adapt to what its scripting allows it to do, but only for that one match.

 

[Tane]

Which does however say that the CPUs are learning SOMETHING, by mimicking a humans actions. And in the Kirby match, it does it right after the first kill.

 

[Sushi21]

Playing them, it kind of seem like it.
But I couldn't think in anything that would have CPU's process things like this .

 

[Dantarion]

The AI doesn't learn or mimic anything.
How do I know?
Becuase me and Bero decrypted the games AI code.
Thats right. We have data proof.
http://opensa.dantarion.com/ai_dumps/

 

[Tane]

So then if that is the case (I looked at the .txt files and had no idea what I was looking at), then how would you explain the CPU crouching/Falcon Punching in all of those videos?

 

[Dantarion]

The crouching thing is because when you die, the CPU has no target. As a result, the AI has no reason to move at all, especially when items are off.

As a result, they end up doing the only action that they are coded to do that doesn't require a target, which is crouching in place.


In the falcon punch video, the opponent stops attacking, and stays about the same distance away from falcon. The AI sees that as a good range to do Falcon punch from.


Here is the best way to prove that AI dont learn.

Take a replay to a friends house. It plays back properly. The replay files have been 100% decoded. There is no learning data, OR inputs saved for CPU's. The CPU's are resimulated when you play a replay.

If there was any extra data required to play back the CPU's, it would have to be included with the replay files, and it ISNT

 

[SupaSairentoZ7℠]

If they were able to learn from players it would be tedious thanks to their constant perfect dodges and power shielding.

 

[Tane]

Fair enough. But if that is true about crouching, why doesn't the AI do it all the time?

 

[Dantarion]

The AI has some randomness to it.

 

[Tane]

Alright. Though, I highly doubt that Nintendo actually programmed their CPUs to repeatedly crouch when they don't have a target.

 

[Dantarion]

They didnt program them with the intent to repeatedly crouch.

They dont seem to have programmed them to MOVE with no target either though.

 

[Tane]

That's not convincing enough. I still think that they learn at least enough to teabag. They only crouch when they see a human crouching, and other than that almost never do. I still haven't heard any good enough reasons for them not learning.

 

[Claire Diviner]

That's not convincing enough. I still think that they learn at least enough to teabag. They only crouch when they see a human crouching, and other than that almost never do. I still haven't heard any good enough reasons for them not learning.

It's called programming; the AI can only do what their AI scripting allows, so they cannot learn. As for mimicing, if they see you using some sort of "tactic", then they might use it (assuming their programming allows this), but it will only be for that one match. For them to mimic said tactic again, they need to see you do it again, otherwise, they do not store what they see into memory, since CPUs have no memory.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

The whole "taunting when you die" is programmed in correct?

 

[Claire Diviner]

The whole "taunting when you die" is programmed in correct?

Yes, it is.

 

[SupaSairentoZ7℠]

Hehe that is probably worst than a real player doing it. XD

 

[Tane]

It's called programming; the AI can only do what their AI scripting allows, so they cannot learn. As for mimicing, if they see you using some sort of "tactic", then they might use it (assuming their programming allows this), but it will only be for that one match. For them to mimic said tactic again, they need to see you do it again, otherwise, they do not store what they see into memory, since CPUs have no memory.

Gotcha. That, I can definitely understand. I guess that's what I was getting at. So then they have shorthop-fair, etc. already programmed in?

Hehe that is probably worst than a real player doing it. XD

Hahahah. I agree, but I think it's hysterical when CPUs do it. I don't know why, but whenever a computer crouches repeatedly it makes me laugh harder than anything ever has. Just thinking about it makes me lol.

 

[FIREL]

If you get star KOed (must be KO'd "into a star")... they can taunt twice............

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Sol Diviner is lying, they don't learn in any way. Even during the same match.

In regards to taunting, I believe they are programmed to do that if there is no target. However, like Dantarion said, there is an element of randomness to this. Hence why they sometimes crouch instead.

 

[SupaSairentoZ7℠]

Just on easier difficulties they'll taunt despite other opponents being on the field. That is probably worst than being KOed by CPU when there is no one else.

 

[Beninator]

They do seem to learn, in my own experience. Lvl 9 Captain Falcons only started using the Reverse Arial Falcon Punch after I only used it for a very long time, but, I'm no expert.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

No, they don't learn Beninator.

 

[Kantrip]

I saw this one Meta Knight at school once, right? So I asked him if he was a player and he said
"naw ima cpu bro".

I think they can learn, they are just unwilling.

 

[Gatlin]

Lol.
Okay, this thread has gone on long enough. If you wish to discuss it further please direct your attention to this thread: Brawl Computers: Q&A