Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[Phoenix Douchebag]

I think people really sleep on the additions Smash for Wii U/3DS made to the franchise.

, , , , , , 's return, , and are all pretty major steps for Smash's roster, but they're kind of taken for granted nowadays. Smash for Wii U/3DS was also pretty good about adding fan favourites from the time with stuff like , , , , and .

While I would say Brawl and Ultimate have slightly better newcomers, Smash for Wii U/3DS still had a pretty amazing line-up.

With how much Ultimate's DLC relied on Third Parties, i really have come to appreciate Samsh 4's line up. My only real complaint is how most of them were recent characters which feels more off after Ridley and K.Rool being in Ultimate.

 

[FreeFox]

I don't get how Bayonetta could be the most realizable character, though. Is it because she had relevance at the time, so Nintendo felt they weren't taking a risk by adding her over fan favorites who haven't appeared in games in a while like Geno and K. Rool (then)?

Being fair here. Since they obviously had the rights and they started working on her before results, its technically not a lie. She was the most "realizable" since they had to put no extra effort or money for her. What is more realizable than that?

 

[Dinoman96]

I think people really sleep on the additions Smash for Wii U/3DS made to the franchise.

, , , , , , 's return, , and are all pretty major steps for Smash's roster, but they're kind of taken for granted nowadays. Smash for Wii U/3DS was also pretty good about adding fan favourites from the time with stuff like , , , , and .

While I would say Brawl and Ultimate have slightly better newcomers, Smash for Wii U/3DS still had a pretty amazing line-up.

A lot of people don't look back on Smash 4's newcomer lineup super favorably because much of it focused on what was new in the world of Nintendo back in early 2012, so a bunch of Wii and 3DS games pretty much. Duck Hunt was the one and only first party newcomer whose inclusion wasn't based on a then recent game. No Ridley or K. Rool really stung at the time. The third parties were generally better received because they were big long standing icons, well besides Bayonetta.

That and also a lot of them were just kinda weird and unwieldy to actually play as.

 

[Phoenix Douchebag]

This reminds me, what ever happened to Duck Hunt? Everyone was all over them, swore they'd main them before Smash for 3DS launched, and then... nothing. They arguably faded even further into the background in Ultimate.
What happened? They're not a bad character by any means, though they're almost certainly the hardest of the mid-tiers.

That's just the nature of Unexpected characters.

Everyone goes "OMG SO UNEXPECTED BEST REVEAL EVER LOL THEY GOT OVER insert character here DAY 1 MAIN" and then...............nothing. This happens with every unexpected silly character like Game and & Watch, R.O.B, WFT and most recent of all Piranha Plant.

This is different from other characters like Joker and Cloud. Yes, the Smash Bubble didn't care about them and were unexpected, but those two characters have massive followings outside of Smash so of course those fans will play them once they joined the roster. The 4 i mentioned above................don't have large following groups, and once the Shock Value and Funny memes ran its course, the large majority move on to play as characters they actually have an attachment to.

Yes Duck Hunt and WFT come from Million Selling games, but the consumers of those games aren't the hardcore fans who will play as their favorite in Crossover games. Fans of Banjo, Bayo, Castlevania, Mega Man, and others may be smaller in sales numbers but their fans are more passionate.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

...I completely forgot about the Master Chief stuff from E3.

Either way, I think you said it better than I could. Amazing performance during the base game followed by some hits and a lot misses in the DLC. Wasn't Vergeben one of the first people to give Erdrick a significant degree of attention?

Erdrick was part of the Square Seven, funny enough Crono is the only one in there to have nothing now that DLC is over

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Smash Wii U also received flack for cutting a good portion of well liked characters. Wolf, Ice Climbers, and especially Snake being missing was a sore spot for many fans, myself included.

Wii U, while having some great additions, felt weird, or off, or almost empty to me without Snake for some reason. Maybe it was because he opened things up for 3rd parties, but he was also my main for a bit instead of Mario so I was big disappoint in that.

 

[Ivander]

I don't get how Bayonetta could be the most realizable character, though. Is it because she had relevance at the time, so Nintendo felt they weren't taking a risk by adding her over fan favorites who haven't appeared in games in a while like Geno and K. Rool (then)?

No. Realisable as in, She was the one who did not have too much issue regarding licenses, copyright, higher-up issues and whatnot, since the most popular character was from Disney and more than likely, the others were from companies that weren't being cooperative at the time or still aren't.
The last possibility is Nintendo themselves being stingy. Like, assuming Banjo & Kazooie were high, the case could be said for either scenario: The higher-ups of Microsoft not being cooperative or Nintendo saying, "We don't want to do that cause it's a competitor". Like regardless of how very willing Sakurai is for characters, some of those choices also depend on not just the companies being okay with it, but also the higher-ups of Nintendo being okay with it.
And that's not also including the amount of non-video game votes, like Goku, Shrek, etc.

Basically, Bayonetta was the most realisable because she had the least amount of "No" answers.

 

[FreeFox]

Smash Wii U also received flack for cutting a good portion of well liked characters. Wolf, I e Climbers, and especially Snake being missing was a sore spot for many fans, myself included.

Wii U, while having some great additions, felt weird, or off, or almost empty to me without Snake for some reason. Maybe it was because he opened things up for 3rd parties, but he was also my main for a bit instead of Mario so I was big disappoint in that.

They also removed Isaac from the assist trophies and gave us the worst new mode "Smash tour." Overall, the game feels really weak.

 

[osby]

The historic revisionism around Smash 4 newcomers' popularity isn't even unique to that game.

Inkling was a mind-blowingly huge request after Splatoon came out yet people tend to group them with "promo picks" along with Isabelle and Incineroar nowadays. Granted, they were a pretty obvious addition but it's super weird how fandom in general completely forgot about how they were asking for them in the first place.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

i heard that smash 4 would have had its own story mode were it not for time constraints. which, no doubt, split platform development was a major contributor to that

master core and fortress felt like they had no buildup

and yeah, the 3ds was the main reason for no Ice Climbers, and since they wanted the roster to be the same for both versions...

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

A lot of people don't look back on Smash 4's newcomer lineup super favorably because much of it focused on what was new in the world of Nintendo back in early 2012, so a bunch of Wii and 3DS games pretty much. Duck Hunt was the one and only first party newcomer whose inclusion wasn't based on a then recent game. No Ridley or K. Rool really stung at the time. The third parties were generally better received because they were big long standing icons, well besides Bayonetta.

That and also a lot of them were just kinda weird and unwieldy to actually play as.

Wii Punch Out came in 2009, not exactly early 2012.

 

[Dinoman96]

Wii Punch Out came in 2009, not exactly early 2012.

I mean, that's still pretty close enough.

 

[osby]

i heard that smash 4 would have had its own story mode were it not for time constraints. which, no doubt, split platform development was a major contributor to that

master core and fortress felt like they had no buildup

and yeah, the 3ds was the main reason for no Ice Climbers, and since they wanted the roster to be the same for both versions...

I mean, yeah but developing the game for two consoles at the same time probably gave the development team a larger budget and more development time.

It's not a coincidence that Smash 4 had the largest base game newcomer roster in the series.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

i heard that smash 4 would have had its own story mode were it not for time constraints. which, no doubt, split platform development was a major contributor to that

Thought that was because it was leaked before the game got released?

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Thought that was because it was leaked before the game got released?

Was it? I would remember if it was

the leaks were I think referring to Brawl’s SSE, Sakurai was upset about those leaks

 

[Garteam]

This reminds me, what ever happened to Duck Hunt? Everyone was all over them, swore they'd main them before Smash for 3DS launched, and then... nothing. They arguably faded even further into the background in Ultimate.
What happened? They're not a bad character by any means, though they're almost certainly the hardest of the mid-tiers.

I think it more or less comes down to the fact that Duck Hunt's a zoner who is also difficult to play effectively. Not exactly a great combination if you're trying to attract a large player base.

That being said, no matter how much **** Little Mac and Duck Hunt get because of their playstyles, I'm very glad they're in Smash. Mike Tyson's Punch-Out and Duck Hunt are probably two of the most iconic NES games in the West after Super Mario Bros, so it's nice to have them here.

 

[Dinoman96]

I mean, yeah but developing the game for two consoles at the same time probably gave the development team a larger budget and more development time.

It's not a coincidence that Smash 4 had the largest base game newcomer roster in the series.

Not quite.

Brawl:
Smash 4:

Brawl actually has Smash 4's base game newcomer lineup by one (18 vs. 17). To put things in Brawl's favour even more, if you discount Dark Pit and Lucina (due to being prototype echo fighters) then that bumps Smash 4's lineup down to 15.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

A few things to comment on:

1) I'm not convinced Smash will be announced again in a few years. I think anybody would find that as a surprise at this point. While I can agree that Smash is a system seller, the same could be said for Mario Kart, yet we haven't seen a new Mario Kart since Deluxe was ported to the Switch at launch...and Mario Kart makes more money than Smash by a LONG shot. Based on the JP Nintendo website, which I just looked up, MK8 Deluxe has sold 37.8 million pcs, while Smash has sold 24.77 million pcs. Neither is a sad number, but the difference is still astonishing.

Basically, I can't disagree it's a system seller. Yes, Mario Kart 8 is a port of the previous Gen Mario Kart, and at the same token a “new” Mario Kart. But that logic does not necessarily suggest they're going to jump right back in and make an entirely new Smash game off the heels of one of the biggest and most expensive projects they have undertaken. To me, this feels different just in the virtue that this game simply has been a decade in the making essentially. There are other questions that need answering too. Is Sakurai working on a different project now? Is he retiring? Will somebody else take over Smash? There are larger questions to answer than just, "When new Smash?"

I also think folks are underestimating what next steps are. In terms of what Smash is now, the toothpaste is going to be quite difficult to put back into the tube. You've maximized fan demand by adding the most wanted characters in significant numbers. You have largely refined the gameplay. You have done what many considered impossible. If you change gameplay too much, you alienate fans from the typically accessible Smash Bros. series. If you cut certain characters, you may significantly cut down on how many fanbases are being included, which can also alienate fans from the big wacky wahoo fighting game.

2) I feel, and this has been said many times by many different people, that Smash fans have an echo chamber problem. It's largely a problem with the internet as a whole (Twitter, Facebook, etc) but when folks hole up in a particular area and are surrounded by nothing but their own viewpoints, narratives shift and toxicity...well, toxicity thrives in an area where challenging views is unacceptable.

There were many characters who, I felt, had been echo chambered into relevancy. Geno was one. No disrespect, but Reimu was absolutely another one. When you get enough people thinking an idea is going to happen, and more people believe in it, the more accepted it becomes. To me, that was exactly what happened with several top picks, and it's not just Ultimate's hype cycle. For Wii U, Ridley and K.Rool fans suffered this fate, and Crash/Dante stans believed a little too hard that their characters were in. When things aren't often challenged,

3) I really think folks need to slow down, just a tad, with looking toward Smash 6.

Like...I guess I'm an old man (at the ripe age of 28) but this roster is just...incredible. Decades of series represented, probably thousands of years of gaming history (combined, not chronologically) fit together, tons of dream matchups (Mario vs. Sonic, Link vs. Cloud, Marth vs. Link vs. Sora vs. Cloud vs. Shulk if you wanna go into gaming swords too) amazing music...and the best part is that there is so much polish to it, that I personally believe it's taken for granted.

Like, once again I mean no disrespect here...but the polish of Smash compared to, say, Nickelodeon All-Star Brawl is something that can't be understated. It's on two entirely different planes of existence. Yes, one is made with a comparatively astronomical budget to the other, but the characters look, sound, and in some ways feel accurate to play.

Really, I feel the only thing Ultimate could have done better was authentic rivalry/dream matchup sequences. Like, something for Mario and Bowser, or Link and Ganondorf, Cloud and Sephiroth, that sort of thing. Character interaction would really go a long way. But there are plenty of things to do in-game, and it's amazing enough to see these characters together on the screen that it can be easy to forget that Smash started with just...12 characters, 4 of which were unlockable.

 

[FreeFox]

There is also something else about the Wii U characters that might have something to do with its general lower popularity, the polarizing movesets. I can think of many instances from this from Luma, to Little Mac, to Duck Hunt, Bayonetta, to Cloud and even Palutena. And it ranges from the ranged fighter advantage, to being to specialized and to being poorly balanced. The game also had some pretty strange balance decisions like some characters receiving nothing in patches and meme worthy material like Greninja nerfing.

 

[Flyboy]

I don't get how Bayonetta could be the most realizable character, though. Is it because she had relevance at the time, so Nintendo felt they weren't taking a risk by adding her over fan favorites who haven't appeared in games in a while like Geno and K. Rool (then)?

Sakurai has actually talked about this in his book, just a little, and we can extrapolate some more stuff from things we know...

Firstly, Sakurai himself mentioned that he threw out non-game characters - he specifically mentioned Goku, Iron Man, and SpongeBob in various forms. We know now also that number one on the ballot worldwide was Sora, who was very obviously not at all possible during Nintendo's big financial dip days. Under Sora were veterans - Sakurai has mentioned multiple times that the ballot is the reason the veterans were brought back, so I'm fairly certain that at the very least Snake and the Ice Climbers were big earners, with Snake being in a terrible position as Konami hated Kojima and was distancing themselves from Metal Gear around that time, and the Ice Climbers not technically possible on the 3DS. It's likely that Inkling also placed highly but was also unable to be implemented due to the lack of DLC budget plus inability to incorporate the ink mechanic satisfactorily on the 3DS.

It's important to remember also what position Bayonetta herself was in around that time. Not only was the first Bayonetta a cult favorite, with Platinum on an upward climb, Bayonetta 2 was a big success for what it was and had a lot of eyes on it because it was genuinely a GOTY contender, and on the Wii U no less. Her Nintendo acquisition helped, too. She was a big pick for a lot of people, especially on social media sites like Tumblr, where you'd see a fair amount of Bayo support. She DID show up on fan polls, but a lot of those fan polls were both hardcore AND worldwide (and so, Sora topping those fan polls makes even more sense). We know that she topped the polls in Europe and that she placed top five in the US - so when you throw out non-game characters, characters that could not be negotiated for, and characters who were not technically feasible at the time, she very realistically placed highly.

There's also a small theory that they had an idea to add her anyway, as she was also able to promote a new Nintendo property, so her negotiations were extremely simple considering she was already under the umbrella. They'd just have to go to Sega for Bayo 1 stuff, possibly. So it's not unreasonable to consider that the ballot in the first week or two had a huge swell of Bayonetta votes, enough to convince the team to do some preliminary work on the character, because she was clearly a popular ballot choice.

We'll never really know the exact numbers behind the ballot, but it is important also to note that so many different votes were split - the Castlevania vote between Alucard and Simon, and possibly Soma Cruz and others, or the Final Fantasy vote that eventually lead to Cloud. It's not unreasonable to think that characters like Banjo, Geno, or even K. Rool, though they absolutely had vocal and passionate fanbases that lead to representation either as costumes or characters in 4 and Ultimate, may not have lit the ballot on fire worldwide considering how many regions were taking part in the poll. There are a lot of different factors that lead to her inclusion, and with more Nintendo-produced Bayonetta games on the way these factors make sense. In his columns, presentations, and even in the final Smash 4 presentation itself, Sakurai has been reasonable and clear as to the reasons why things ended up how they did, and any gaps can be pretty well explained by remembering The Wii U Was Kind Of A Big Failure In Marketing's Eyes. The Switch being such a success gave Sakurai and his team the negotiating power they needed with ALL parties to eventually make the game a reality.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Personally it’s hard not to look at Smash 4 as the game with “should have been there’s” like Ridley and K Rool and (especially given the shifted focus in Smash 5) the likes of Dixie Kong or Bandana Dee.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Metroid Dread is the fastest selling Metroid game in the UK surpassing Metroid Prime 3

Nintendo's latest game comfortably beats Metroid Prime 3's launch week https://t.co/NL1KVFyxei

— GamesIndustry (@GIBiz) October 11, 2021

Don't know how it's doing in other countries though.

 

[SKX31]

Basically a lot of the Smash 4 era was Nintendo essentially planning for the next Smash (on a hopefully more successful console) while trying to deliver worthwhile content to the current game, and at times (rather awkwardly) attempting to merge both efforts.

Yeah, I don't blame them for trying that in the end. The Wii U didn't break 10 million until June 2015, and even if the 3DS was at its midpoint it was pretty clear that Nintendo needed to come up with something fast. That extended to Smash.

Now, yes, those efforts did result in Smash 4's DLC being overall overtuned - but I get the impression it was because Sakurai had committed to Ultimate and didn't pay that much attention to what was happening in the already-existing scene. I don't blame him, especially since he knew that Ultimate was Iwata's last request to him. So in the end, he and his team did the best with what they had.

This reminds me, what ever happened to Duck Hunt? Everyone was all over them, swore they'd main them before Smash for 3DS launched, and then... nothing. They arguably faded even further into the background in Ultimate.
What happened? They're not a bad character by any means, though they're almost certainly the hardest of the mid-tiers.

That's just the nature of Unexpected characters.

Everyone goes "OMG SO UNEXPECTED BEST REVEAL EVER LOL THEY GOT OVER insert character here DAY 1 MAIN" and then...............nothing. This happens with every unexpected silly character like Game and & Watch, R.O.B, WFT and most recent of all Piranha Plant.

This is different from other characters like Joker and Cloud. Yes, the Smash Bubble didn't care about them and were unexpected, but those two characters have massive followings outside of Smash so of course those fans will play them once they joined the roster. The 4 i mentioned above................don't have large following groups, and once the Shock Value and Funny memes ran its course, the large majority move on to play as characters they actually have an attachment to.

Yes Duck Hunt and WFT come from Million Selling games, but the consumers of those games aren't the hardcore fans who will play as their favorite in Crossover games. Fans of Banjo, Bayo, Castlevania, Mega Man, and others may be smaller in sales numbers but their fans are more passionate.

Then again, how big a playerbase for those unexpected characters are come down a lot to if there's anything to help them stand out. I agree with Garteam , but to elaborate:

For instance, appears to be decently popular casually - you can expect to see at least one or two ROBs online every now and then. But that has a lot to do with an easily spammable move (Arm Rotor, side B) and it being relatively easy to use overall (the only caveat is that its N-Air / B-Air / D-Air are delayed). Meanwhile it's also one of the most popular characters to use at higher levels currently: which does help influence the more casual audience a bit thanks to Youtube clips and what not (of the clickbaity "look at what this character can do!" variety). Sure, ROB has a kinda steep learning curve, but it's not gonna matter if people pick him on the couch and just go swinging those robot arms around.

It's safe to say that ROB was much, much less popular to use back in Brawl and Smash 4. Not only was Arm Rotor much less safe in those games (especially Smash 4) but it also had some much more prominent weaknesses - like it struggling to KO, something which is no longer the case in Ultimate.

Meanwhile, 's not exactly been prominent either casually or in Serious Business levels, and I have to assume that's due to them having some unusual projectiles and not much else to help them stand out. As such it comes off as they're unintuitive (not just using Can effectively, but also how their grounded normals do not offer the same kind of instant reward as say 's or 's). That said, they do have some prominent players (Raito especially) and their results imply that the character's deep in the "Difficult but potentially rewarding" territory.

 

[MarioRaccoon]

Wii Punch Out came in 2009, not exactly early 2012.

Yes but what he meant is that Smash 4 first party roster elections were based on Wii/DS/Early 3DS era titles:

• Wii Fit Trainer: Wii Fit (2007), Wii Fit Plus (2009), Wii Fit U (2013) [Wii]
• Little Mac: Punch-Out (2009) [Wii]
• Rosalina & Luma: Super Mario Galaxy (2007) & 2 (2010) + other titles [Wii]
• Bowser Jr + Koopalings: NSMBWii (2009) & U (2013) [Wii/WiiU]
• Palutena, Dark Pit: Kid Icarus Uprising (2012) [3DS]
• Robin, Lucina: Fire Emblem Awakening (2012) [3DS]
• Greninja: Pokémon X/Y (2013) [3DS]
• Villager: Animal Crossing City Folk (2008) & New Leaf (2012) [Wii/3DS]
• Shulk: Xenoblade Chronicles (2012) [Wii]
• Mii Fighters: self explanatory lol

But one thing that Smash 4 did it very well and Smash team put lots of focused was giving us lots of stages representing lots of games:

• 3D Land: Super Mario 3D Land (2011) [3DS]
• Golden Plains: New Super Mario Bros 2 (2012) [3DS]
• Rainbow Road: Mario Kart 7 (2011) [3DS]
• Paper Mario: Paper Mario Sticker Star (2012) [3DS]
• Gerudo Valley: Zelda Ocarina of Time 3D (2011) [3DS]
• Spirit Train: Zelda Spirit Tracks (2009) [DS]
• Dream Land: Kirby Dream Land (1992) [GB]
• Unova League: Pokémon Black/White (2010) [DS]
• Prism Tower: Pokémon X/Y (2013) [3DS]
• Mute City: F-Zero (1990) [SNES]
• Magicant: Earthbound (1994) [SNES]
• Arena Ferox: Fire Emblem Awakening (2012) [3DS]
• Reset Bomb Forest: Kid Icarus Uprising (2012) [3DS]
• Tortimer Island: Animal Crossing New Leaf (2012) [3DS]
• Boxing Ring: Punch Out (2009) [Wii]
• Gaur Plains: Xenoblade Chronicles (2010) [Wii]
• Duck Hunt: Duck Hunt (1985) [NES]
• Find Mii: Find Mii II (2011) [3DS]
• Living Room: Nintendogs + Cats (2011) [3DS]
• Ballon Fight: Ballon Fight (1985) [NES]
• Pictochat 2: Pictochat (2004) [DS]
• Tomadochi Life: Tomadochi Life (2013) [3DS]
• Mario Circuit: Mario Kart 8 (2014) [WiiU]
• Mario Galaxy: Super Mario Galaxy (2007) [Wii]
• Mushroom Kingdom U: New Super Mario Bros U (2012) [WiiU]
• Skyloft: Zelda Skyward Sword (2011) [Wii]
• Woolly World: Yoshi Woolly World (2015) [WiiU]
• Jungle Hijinxs: DK Country Return (2010) [Wii]
• Pyrosphere: Metroid Other M (2010) [Wii]
• Great Cave Offensive: Kirby Super Star (1996) [SNES]
• Gamer: Game & Wario (2013) [WiiU]
• Garden of Hope: Pikmin 3 (2013) [WiiU]
• Orbital Assault Gate: Star Fox Assault (2005) [Gamecube]
• Kalos Pokemon League: Pokémon X/Y (2013) [3DS]
• Town and City: Animal Crossing City Folk (2008) [Wii]
• Wii Fit Studio: Wii Fit (2007) [Wii]
• Colisseum: Fire Emblem and the Shadow Dragon (2008) [DS]
• Wrecking Crew: Wrecking Crew (1985) [NES]
• Pilotwings: Pilotwings/Pilotwings Resort (1990/2011) [SNES/3DS]
• Flat Zone X: Game Watch (1980)
• Palutena’s Temple: Kid Icarus Uprising (2012)[3DS]
• Wuhu Island: Wii Sports Resort (2009) [Wii]
  
  Smash 4 stages represent 41 different games, mostly from Wii/DS/WiiU/3DS era (13 from 3DS, 5 from WiiU, 9 from Wii and 4 from DS).
  
  Switch era titles has representation of 5 titles (Mario Odyssey, Zelda BOTW, FE 3 Houses, ARMS and Xenoblade 2). Hopefully this will improve for next Smash (Luigis Mansion 3, Pokémon Sword/Shield, Zelda BOTW2, Mario Kart 9 or next 3D Mario, Splatoon 3, Xenoblade 3, Ring Fit, Bayonetta 3 maybe).

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Yes but what he meant is that Smash 4 first party roster elections were based on Wii/DS/Early 3DS era titles:

• Wii Fit Trainer: Wii Fit (2007), Wii Fit Plus (2009), Wii Fit U (2013) [Wii]
• Little Mac: Punch-Out (2009) [Wii]
• Rosalina & Luma: Super Mario Galaxy (2007) & 2 (2010) + other titles [Wii]
• Bowser Jr + Koopalings: NSMBWii (2009) & U (2013) [Wii/WiiU]
• Palutena, Dark Pit: Kid Icarus Uprising (2012) [3DS]
• Robin, Lucina: Fire Emblem Awakening (2012) [3DS]
• Greninja: Pokémon X/Y (2013) [3DS]
• Villager: Animal Crossing City Folk (2008) & New Leaf (2012) [Wii/3DS]
• Shulk: Xenoblade Chronicles (2012) [Wii]
• Mii Fighters: self explanatory lol

But one thing that Smash 4 did it very well and Smash team put lots of focused was giving us lots of stages representing lots of games:

• 3D Land: Super Mario 3D Land (2011) [3DS]
• Golden Plains: New Super Mario Bros 2 (2012) [3DS]
• Rainbow Road: Mario Kart 7 (2011) [3DS]
• Paper Mario: Paper Mario Sticker Star (2012) [3DS]
• Gerudo Valley: Zelda Ocarina of Time 3D (2011) [3DS]
• Spirit Train: Zelda Spirit Tracks (2009) [DS]
• Dream Land: Kirby Dream Land (1992) [GB]
• Unova League: Pokémon Black/White (2010) [DS]
• Prism Tower: Pokémon X/Y (2013) [3DS]
• Mute City: F-Zero (1990) [SNES]
• Magicant: Earthbound (1994) [SNES]
• Arena Ferox: Fire Emblem Awakening (2012) [3DS]
• Reset Bomb Forest: Kid Icarus Uprising (2012) [3DS]
• Tortimer Island: Animal Crossing New Leaf (2012) [3DS]
• Boxing Ring: Punch Out (2009) [Wii]
• Gaur Plains: Xenoblade Chronicles (2010) [Wii]
• Duck Hunt: Duck Hunt (1985) [NES]
• Find Mii: Find Mii II (2011) [3DS]
• Living Room: Nintendogs + Cats (2011) [3DS]
• Ballon Fight: Ballon Fight (1985) [NES]
• Pictochat 2: Pictochat (2004) [DS]
• Tomadochi Life: Tomadochi Life (2013) [3DS]
• Mario Circuit: Mario Kart 8 (2014) [WiiU]
• Mario Galaxy: Super Mario Galaxy (2007) [Wii]
• Mushroom Kingdom U: New Super Mario Bros U (2012) [WiiU]
• Skyloft: Zelda Skyward Sword (2011) [Wii]
• Woolly World: Yoshi Woolly World (2015) [WiiU]
• Jungle Hijinxs: DK Country Return (2010) [Wii]
• Pyrosphere: Metroid Other M (2010) [Wii]
• Great Cave Offensive: Kirby Super Star (1996) [SNES]
• Gamer: Game & Wario (2013) [WiiU]
• Garden of Hope: Pikmin 3 (2013) [WiiU]
• Orbital Assault Gate: Star Fox Assault (2005) [Gamecube]
• Kalos Pokemon League: Pokémon X/Y (2013) [3DS]
• Town and City: Animal Crossing City Folk (2008) [Wii]
• Wii Fit Studio: Wii Fit (2007) [Wii]
• Colisseum: Fire Emblem and the Shadow Dragon (2008) [DS]
• Wrecking Crew: Wrecking Crew (1985) [NES]
• Pilotwings: Pilotwings/Pilotwings Resort (1990/2011) [SNES/3DS]
• Flat Zone X: Game Watch (1980)
• Palutena’s Temple: Kid Icarus Uprising (2012)[3DS]
• Wuhu Island: Wii Sports Resort (2009) [Wii]
  
  Smash 4 stages represent 41 different games, mostly from Wii/DS/WiiU/3DS era (13 from 3DS, 5 from WiiU, 9 from Wii and 4 from DS)

Bowser Jr. himself made his debut proper in Super Mario Sunshine (2002, GameCube) though. The play style is based on NSMB, that is true

… also we need more DS and Wii U era characters. Well just one in particular for the latter, but you get what I mean

Neku and Phoenix would be great DS-era third parties too

 

[Guynamednelson]

Yes but what he meant is that Smash 4 first party roster elections were based on Wii/DS/Early 3DS era titles:

• Wii Fit Trainer: Wii Fit (2007), Wii Fit Plus (2009), Wii Fit U (2013) [Wii]
• Little Mac: Punch-Out (2009) [Wii]
• Rosalina & Luma: Super Mario Galaxy (2007) & 2 (2010) + other titles [Wii]
• Bowser Jr + Koopalings: NSMBWii (2009) & U (2013) [Wii/WiiU]
• Palutena, Dark Pit: Kid Icarus Uprising (2012) [3DS]
• Robin, Lucina: Fire Emblem Awakening (2012) [3DS]
• Greninja: Pokémon X/Y (2013) [3DS]
• Villager: Animal Crossing City Folk (2008) & New Leaf (2012) [Wii/3DS]
• Shulk: Xenoblade Chronicles (2012) [Wii]
• Mii Fighters: self explanatory lol

I kind of wonder if THAT many people complained about Brawl's lack of prominent Wii representation outside of Twilight Princess, a game that was initially made for and released for the Gamecube on the same day.

 

[Dinoman96]

Little Mac, Palutena, Villager and Bowser Jr. were all characters that were technically old, but they were certainly elevated by recently released games, especially Little Mac and especially Palutena.

I think Donkey Kong got screwed over pretty hard by this back in Smash 4, because Nintendo and Retro decided to completely reboot DKC with Returns and downsize the cast to just DK and Diddy, with Cranky, Squawks and Rambi on the sidelines. That's probably what resulted in no playable K. Rool or any new DK character at all. Tropical Freeze would later bring back Dixie (and Funky), but I'd assume that game came too late to have an effect on anything.

 

[subterrestrial]

Bowser Jr in the clown car was a much better idea than the paintbrush graffiti and Rosalina is one of the best designed chars in the game tbh genius moveset concept with the luma

sm4sh newcomers were lowkey underrated especially Jr's trailer (go watch it rn)

 

[DarthEnderX]

I don't get how Bayonetta could be the most realizable character, though.

Because, at the time of the ballot, the only characters that were "realizable" for Smash 4, were characters that were ALREADY being MADE for Smash 4.

Which basically just means she ranked higher than Corrin.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Because, at the time of the ballot, the only characters that were "realizable" for Smash 4, were characters that were ALREADY being MADE for Smash 4.

Which basically just means she ranked higher than Corrin.

which makes me think; if you needed a fake ballot winner, why not pick cloud? i feel he would’ve been loads more believeable as a winner if nintendo was truly just going “oh yeah …. The ballot…eh, let’s just say one of these three we’re working on won that“

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

But if you think a community is bad... why engage with them?

There were a lot of environments where people were forced to engage with the Geno fanbase if they wanted to talk about other topics, such as when Geno fans came into the Newcomer thread to discuss the latest "leak" peddled by one of their "insiders" (it was typically just Cacomallow or some variation of it–hence why Cacomallow is such a joke among speculators) or the Seven Squares thread, where Geno fans bitterly attacked any character that wasn't Geno (being a Hero fan was very fun at the time).

I think another problem that's gone unmentioned is that trolls infiltrated the Geno fanbase playing as "insiders" with insider information, and in doing so played wolf in sheep's clothes–whether they intended to or not. Most people recognized this from the outset, which caused tension between the Geno fanbase–who vehemently defended trolls who told them what they wanted to hear–and other speculation groups–who saw the damage those trolls were doing and wished for a return to calmer minds prevailing. But this is a whole other issue that I'll write about more on a later day.

I won't go into more detail because it's all in the past and I don't want to dredge up past disputes, but it wasn't as nearly cut-and-dry as "trolls went into the Geno thread to do a bit of trollin'," though that unfortunately did happen multiple times over the course of speculation.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Still not over the bird picture BS and what a big nothing burger that turned out to be

 

[ProfPeanut]

A few things to comment on:

1) I'm not convinced Smash will be announced again in a few years. I think anybody would find that as a surprise at this point. While I can agree that Smash is a system seller, the same could be said for Mario Kart, yet we haven't seen a new Mario Kart since Deluxe was ported to the Switch at launch...and Mario Kart makes more money than Smash by a LONG shot. Based on the JP Nintendo website, which I just looked up, MK8 Deluxe has sold 37.8 million pcs, while Smash has sold 24.77 million pcs. Neither is a sad number, but the difference is still astonishing.

Basically, I can't disagree it's a system seller. Yes, Mario Kart 8 is a port of the previous Gen Mario Kart, and at the same token a “new” Mario Kart. But that logic does not necessarily suggest they're going to jump right back in and make an entirely new Smash game off the heels of one of the biggest and most expensive projects they have undertaken. To me, this feels different just in the virtue that this game simply has been a decade in the making essentially. There are other questions that need answering too. Is Sakurai working on a different project now? Is he retiring? Will somebody else take over Smash? There are larger questions to answer than just, "When new Smash?"

I also think folks are underestimating what next steps are. In terms of what Smash is now, the toothpaste is going to be quite difficult to put back into the tube. You've maximized fan demand by adding the most wanted characters in significant numbers. You have largely refined the gameplay. You have done what many considered impossible. If you change gameplay too much, you alienate fans from the typically accessible Smash Bros. series. If you cut certain characters, you may significantly cut down on how many fanbases are being included, which can also alienate fans from the big wacky wahoo fighting game.

2) I feel, and this has been said many times by many different people, that Smash fans have an echo chamber problem. It's largely a problem with the internet as a whole (Twitter, Facebook, etc) but when folks hole up in a particular area and are surrounded by nothing but their own viewpoints, narratives shift and toxicity...well, toxicity thrives in an area where challenging views is unacceptable.

There were many characters who, I felt, had been echo chambered into relevancy. Geno was one. No disrespect, but Reimu was absolutely another one. When you get enough people thinking an idea is going to happen, and more people believe in it, the more accepted it becomes. To me, that was exactly what happened with several top picks, and it's not just Ultimate's hype cycle. For Wii U, Ridley and K.Rool fans suffered this fate, and Crash/Dante stans believed a little too hard that their characters were in.

3) I really think folks need to slow down, just a tad, with looking toward Smash 6.

Like...I guess I'm an old man (at the ripe age of 28) but this roster is just...incredible. Decades of series represented, probably thousands of years of gaming history (combined, not chronologically) fit together, tons of dream matchups (Mario vs. Sonic, Link vs. Cloud, Marth vs. Link vs. Sora vs. Cloud vs. Shulk if you wanna go into gaming swords too) amazing music...and the best part is that there is so much polish to it, that I personally believe it's taken for granted.

Like, once again I mean no disrespect here...but the polish of Smash compared to, say, Nickelodeon All-Star Brawl is something that can't be understated. It's on two entirely different planes of existence. Yes, one is made with a comparatively astronomical budget to the other, but the characters look, sound, and in some ways feel accurate to play.

Really, I feel the only thing Ultimate could have done better was authentic rivalry/dream matchup sequences. Like, something for Mario and Bowser, or Link and Ganondorf, Cloud and Sephiroth, that sort of thing. Character interaction would really go a long way. But there are plenty of things to do in-game, and it's amazing enough to see these characters together on the screen that it can be easy to forget that Smash started with just...12 characters, 4 of which were unlockable.

People just seem to want to get back to dreaming that their most wanteds will have a chance within a realistic time frame. You know what I think is more realistic? Nintendo never attempting to 1-up Smash ever again.

What I feel is the most depressing takeaway from the end of speculation is that the losers just...didn't learn anything. Ultimate was the one game where the likes of Geno and Waluigi and Goku were likeliest to ever get into Smash, and they didn't. But instead of accepting their loss, people just think that the real reason was that they weren't vocal enough, because after all, if Sora could get in via sheer ballot number...

But if there's ever a future Smash, then it's not going to be likelier for today's losers to get in, even if it somehow turned out to be Ultimate DX. There'll be new Nintendo characters, new flavor-of-the-month 3rd parties, and far, far too many veterans to worry about first. It's like the impossibility of perpetual growth that economics desires, except that the growth isn't even guaranteed to go the way you'd like. Smash doesn't go the way people like more often than not (which informs the educated of what kind of miracle Sora's reveal was.)

So people unfortunate enough to side with the losers and stubborn enough to never learn their lesson will simply keep wishing for new Smash games, with new developers and priorities, until their most wanted characters are finally, finally, added to Smash. Only to have terrible movesets.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

It seems a little early to write off the likes of Dante especially driven he’s in a successful Capcom franchise that’s appeared on Nintendo consoles. Geno and even Waluigi I can understand thinking aren’t likely, but something as high profile as Devil May Cry feels like a franchise that will still be in play years from now.

 

[Evil Trapezium]

Still not over the bird picture BS and what a big nothing burger that turned out to be

Ah you're talking about this lovely picture.

I kind of like it. It's sort of mysterious like you sort of can't see the bird's features so it's like it's hiding something. Hiding the truth of Geno's fate? Who knows?

 

[MarioRaccoon]

I kind of wonder if THAT many people complained about Brawl's lack of prominent Wii representation outside of Twilight Princess, a game that was initially made for and released for the Gamecube on the same day.

Brawl was release a year and 2 months after Wii launch (11/2006 -> 01/2008), so there wasn’t too much time to include Wii representation.

Brawl stages was basically Gamecube representation (Mario Sunshine, Pikmin, Luigi’s Mansion, Metroid Prime, DK Jungle Beat, F-Zero GX, Animal Crossing, Zelda Twilight Princess and Wind Waker) with few GBA representation (Mother 3, Metroid Zero Mission, Wario Ware) and DS (Electroplankton, Pictochat, Mario Kart DS and Pokémon Diamond/Pearl). The rest is NES/SNES titles (Mario Bros, Donkey Kong, Super Mario Bros, Ice Climbers, Kid Icarus, Kirby Super Star, Yoshi’s Island) and others that combines aspects from various games (Castle Siege, Lylat Cruise, Flat Zone 2, Pokémon Stadium 2).

They did a fairly good job representing Gamecube key titles. GBA had the ommissions of Advance Wars and Golden Sun and DS is ok as it was just starting. (And we got other representation like Nintendogs or Brain Age AT).

 

[ProfPeanut]

There were a lot of environments where people were forced to engage with the Geno fanbase if they wanted to talk about other topics, such as when Geno fans came into the Newcomer thread to discuss the latest "leak" peddled by one of their "insiders" (it was typically just Cacomallow or some variation of it–hence why Cacomallow is such a joke among speculators) or the Seven Squares thread, where Geno fans bitterly attacked any character that wasn't Geno (being a Hero fan was very fun at the time).

I won't go into more detail because it's all in the past and I don't want to dredge up past disputes, but it wasn't as nearly cut-and-dry as "trolls went into the Geno thread to do a bit of trollin'" (though that did happen multiple times over the course of speculation, unfortunately). I thinkanother problem that's gone unmentioned is that trolls infiltrated the Geno fanbase and played Wolf in Sheep's clothes–whether they intended to or not–and people recognized that from the outset, which also caused tension between the Geno fanbase–who vehemently defended trolls who told them what they wanted to hear–and other speculation groups–who saw the damage those trolls were doing and wished for a return to calmer minds prevailing. But this is a whole other issue that I'll write about more on a later day.

The Geno bandwagon certainly spiraled out of control. While it didn't help that speculation had to consider the idea on a constant basis, being at war with both the Mario franchise and Square Enix as a whole meant they had very few friends (if any) to turn to. And yet I don't think any character was buried deeper into the ground than him; Sakurai and Nintendo would rather:

• add a Piranha Plant
• add Sephiroth
• talk about FF7 Mii costumes
• negotiate with Disney

than recognize Geno as a playable character.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

Still not over the bird picture BS and what a big nothing burger that turned out to be

You know, Sabi did do a fair bit of trollin' huh?

The Geno bandwagon certainly spiraled out of control. While it didn't help that speculation had to consider the idea on a constant basis, being at war with both the Mario franchise and Square Enix as a whole meant they had very few friends (if any) to turn to. And yet I don't think any character is buried deeper than him; Sakurai and Nintendo would rather:

• add a nameless mook
• add a second FF7 rep
• talk about a Tifa Mii costume
• negotiate with Disney

than recognize Geno as a playable character.

When you phrase it like this, I really do doubt the capability of Geno fans to regroup. One of the biggest arguments in Geno's favor was that he'd be easy to negotiate for as compared to other Square Enix characters, but if Nintendo consistently goes for characters that require more negotiations, that point is kind of moot.

 

[Guynamednelson]

negotiate with Disney

If anything, Sakurai mentioning Sora's ballot support tells me even more that the ballot screwed over Geno, with his lack of popularity at the time.

 

[GilTheGreat19]

Still not over the bird picture BS and what a big nothing burger that turned out to be

Omg I remember that
Didn't people interpret it as a Geno hint or something