Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[DarthEnderX]

I can't believe @NonSpecificGuy is taking away our home.

At least he's giving us a new home.

Get yo hermit crab on!

I just got the three Metroid Dread spirits. The E.M.M.I one was ******* so I went with Plant and just spammed poison.

I just kept swinging till I got lucky.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

Eh, fair enough. I was going off the mindset of how it's the end and there's nothing left to deconfirm anyways, but then I remembered the Miis were revealed first in that presentation like with Sephiroth's.

Actually, I wonder how much overlap Sora fans have with supporters of Dante and Lloyd. What I've seen of Re:Mind seems like it has similar levels of diversity of action as Devil May Cry, and KH and Tales are both action-RPGs that really got going in the 2000's. Not everyone would be happy, but I'd imagine there'd be at least some fans of Dante and Lloyd who'd be happy with Sora.

A lot of Dante supporters are primarily Dante supporters who got their start on Twitter...only supporting Dante, so they'd most certainly have a sizable base up in arms over Sora.

Lloyd's popularity is mainly contained to core fanbases who'd probably at least understand Sora, so Lloyd fans probably wouldn't be too mad. But Dante fans definitely would've made a big stink over Sora instead of Dante for sure.

 

[XorahnGaia]

I don't like digging up the Geno discussion when it's already over and I know my comment will most likely be ignored, but I feel like I need to get this out of my chest: my problem with his support thread and the general mindset that it festered isn't limited to just a few bad apples that spoiled the bunch, it's the fact that said bad apples rarely got called out (at least from what I've seen).

Like, when that guy came in the old General support Thread and made fun of Travis fans for believing he had a chance after his Mii costume was revealed, did any Geno fan said: "This guy doesn't represent us"? No.
When the Geno thread called out Reimu and KOS-MOS fans for believing the Drunk Cat leak and having a "fake alliance" did any of them said it was uncalled for (and even hypocritical considering Cacomallow?) admittedly yes, someone called them out on this last fact, but it was quickly brushed off because "at least our leak is real!!". Whenever something like this happened here, most of the time an admin would come and say "No bullying other threads!", so why that never happened there?
I know this behavior is not limited to the Geno fanbase, but at least from my experience, I do think that elsewhere calmer minds did prevail and that most people didn't like their characters to be associated with bad takes.
I just think it's dishonest to say that the general mania (as others described it ) and insider worshipping (because you can't tell me that the Reimu and KOS-MOS thing would not have happened if Mr.Fatman didn't have a personal distaste for those characters) was just harmless excitement for the character that didn't result in some people getting way high on their horses.

And yes, I can acknowledge that some of that hostility towards other fanbases came as a direct response to some Geno fans getting harassed themselves.
I saw a lot of nice fans that genuinely could have got along well with the rest of the fanbase but instead left the site with a strong distaste for it.
I myself did make a few uncalled jabs toward the Geno thread, so I can't say I acted like the better man in this situation, and I apologize for it.
I guess both sides need to do some introspection and make it so this kind of pointless feud doesn't happen next time.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

SMASH ULTIMATE IS DEAD. THE ERA OF MODDING HAS BEGUN.

Martin, that picture of me was supposed to be private.

Really betraying my trust, bro.

 

[Mamboo07]

SMASH ULTIMATE IS DEAD. THE ERA OF MODDING HAS BEGUN.

Ah... the abomination. 0u0

 

[N3ON]

What I'll add regarding Geno is if the thread(s) ran smooth enough for, idk, fourteen years, and then... something... changes, and trouble begins to escalate exponentially, I'm not sure detractors, who have existed just as long as the threads themselves have, and exist for every notable character, are the catalyst they're suggested to be. Of course it takes two to tango, and capping at that fever pitch was a group effort, but ask yourself what was new to the Geno thread in 2019 that wasn't present in 2018... and from where it came. Identify that, and you'll have your inciting impetus.

 

[Strider_Bond00J]

SMASH ULTIMATE IS DEAD. THE ERA OF MODDING HAS BEGUN.

For as horrifying as that can be, not going to lie in any other context that would be a pretty sick monster design or character in some other game.

 

[Momotsuki]

Maybe I'm just missing something, but I'm not sure why anyone would even post on the support threads of characters they don't, well, support. The only reason I can think of would be to start a ruckus. It's strange.

Of course, I'd say this exact same thing about people from said support threads coming into this one also looking for a fight.

I'd say the bulk of the issues with the Geno thread could have been avoided if people - from both ends - had just left eachother alone. I'm sure plenty of those involved had no ill intent, but there was definitely a lot of deliberate pot-stirring coming from users of both threads.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Maybe I'm just missing something, but I'm not sure why anyone would even post on the support threads of characters they don't, well, support. The only reason I can think of would be to start a ruckus. It's strange.

Of course, I'd say this exact same thing about people from said support threads coming into this one also looking for a fight.

I'd say the bulk of the issues with the Geno thread could have been avoided if people - from both ends - had just left eachother alone. I'm sure plenty of those involved had no ill intent, but there was definitely a lot of deliberate pot-stirring coming from users of both threads.

I only posted in the Geno thread to inquire about leaks

of course at the time I wasn’t aware their resident “leaker” was a sham

 

[Nekoo]

Maybe I'm just missing something, but I'm not sure why anyone would even post on the support threads of characters they don't, well, support. The only reason I can think of would be to start a ruckus. It's strange.

Of course, I'd say this exact same thing about people from said support threads coming into this one also looking for a fight.

I'd say the bulk of the issues with the Geno thread could have been avoided if people - from both ends - had just left eachother alone. I'm sure plenty of those involved had no ill intent, but there was definitely a lot of deliberate pot-stirring coming from users of both threads.

Sometimes, talking about a character, with the people that support it, and look beyond the echo chamber that this thread might be at time, like any "closed community" might be, is always a good idea to see how bad a community might be (like the Geno thread was at time) or how endearing they can be (mostly the Isaac and Shantae pop in my mind first)

 

[Momotsuki]

Sometimes, talking about a character, with the people that support it, and look beyond the echo chamber that this thread might be at time, like any "closed community" might be, is always a good idea to see how bad a community might be (like the Geno thread was at time) or how endearing they can be (mostly the Isaac and Shantae pop in my mind first)

But if you think a community is bad... why engage with them?

 

[Sucumbio]

But if you think a community is bad... why engage with them?

Trolling is a way of life for the desperate.

 

[Phoenix Douchebag]

I posted this in another thread, but i think i will post this here since it is relevant to what happened in these last days.

As for the Ballot, i think in retrospect it was NEVER intended for Smash 4, as that game was nearing completion. In reality it was always meant for Ultimate and future entries, but Sakurai and Iwata did not want to announce a new Smash during 2015 when Smash 4 was still getting DLC.

Yes that means they essentially LIED about it, and the proof is in the pudding:

1-Years ago, a Smash 6 Job listing was found. it wasn't fake, as it was tracked to Bandai Namco themselves. Smash 6 didn't launch in 2015, but it launched development in 2015. This was confirmed by Sakurai himself, as he has stated Ultimate started development in 2015, just right after Smash 4 wrapped up development. The news of a new Smash game were hidden in plain sight, but almost everyone assumed it meant just the DLC or even was a mistake due to Smash 4 still being relatively new. You could argue that it was too soon for a new Smash game since Ultimate was announced just 2 years shy of Bayo's release as DLC, but you must remember that 64 and Melee's gap was just 2 years, that the Wii U was a failure so they needed a new "Main" System and probably wanted some Killer Apps released in the console's early life, and since Ultimate was gonna reuse a lot of assets (and Sakurai didn't have to worry about making a game for both platforms like he did with Smash 4) it made development easier, although some corners still had to be cut, namely Piranha Plant went from Base Game to DLC (notice how in Sora's presentation during the Video's intro, they group Piranha Plant with the Base Game newcomers instead of the DLC characters, plus he has a Entry in Palutena's Guidance and his own 50 second video in Smash Ultimate's website, which is reserved for Base Game characters)


2-Bayo was found to be added 2 weeks into the Ballot, i'm just gonna let @Omega Tyrant speak for himelf here:

I'm really far back and catching up now, but this is a common sentiment in this thread that Bayonetta won the ballot legit and people who suspect she didn't are treated as conspiracists. However there is objective evidence Bayonetta was planned from before the Ballot and it was used afterward to justify her inclusion; dataminers found that of the Mario slots added in 1.0.6, one has the same exact stats as Zero Suit Samus, which were gradually changed over time to what became Bayonetta (another of the Mario slots has the same stats as Ike which became Cloud, and then in 1.0.8 when the final Mario slot was added it also had the same stats as Ike, which became Corrin). 1.0.6 dropped only two weeks after the Ballot launched, meaning there was really no way the Ballot was actually used to decide Bayo, and it appears to have been a sham in deciding DLC, while its real purpose was to be used to get data for future games, as the Japanese page said it could be used for (or Sakurai was initially planning more DLC based on the Ballot but decided at some point to save everything for a new Smash and instead made up the stuff about Bayonetta being the "Ballot winner" to avoid having to admit it ended up being used for a new Smash game).

This information isn't easily sourced since you have to look through the data yourself, but it can found in fighter_param if you know how to do that, and all the prominent dataminers confirmed it.

If you wanna look into more detail, this is the thread where the post originates and Omega goes into more detail in later posts if you are interested.

It's not that "The Ballot was Rigged for Bayo", it's that "Bayonetta was always going to be in Smash 4, she was just a cover up for the Ballot in Smash 4 as it was actually going to be used for Ultimate all along"

This is why when Bayo "won", they put "AMONG REALIZABLE CHARACTERS" with an asterix. She was the highest voted character...............if you exclude all the other ones that likely had more votes than her because they were:
-****post votes like Shrek or North Korea.
-Characters that Sakurai coulnd't add in Smash 4 as that game ended prodcution so they were saved for the next game: Sora, the Belmonts, Ridley, K.Rool, Chrom, Dark Samus, and Banjo & Kazooie.
-Characters that had more votes than Bayo, but were passed over because Sakurai had the above mentioned characters as priority as he simply couldn't add everyone due to time and resource constraints: Waluigi, Bomberman, Dixie Kong and Geno.


Yeah, it looks kinda scummy in hindsight, but i understand this was a white lie (well, maybe gray). They simply couldn't announce a new Smash game that soon, they waited for the Ballot to end on October and start right in November. This also fits with the Comment of a Former Mojang developer, who said that Steve took 5 years to negotiate and develop. This comment was made in Early October of 2020, fitting riiiight in with the development beginning of Smash Ultimate, meaning that yes, they were negotiating characters like Steve and Sora well in advance.

as for Sora being the winner for real or not, this time i actually believe that this is the real deal. Unlike Bayo whose games have been cult following games at best and Smash is the most exposure she has had to the average consumer. Sora, on the other hand, has enough Starpower to be mainstream and be a likely choice for fans to vote for:
-Kingdom Hearts was the 10th best selling KH game on PS2, the best selling console of all time, and was the best selling new IP for that system, and in an era where Zoomer nostalgia is booming, you bet a lot of the current generation was or is into Kingdom Hearts.

-Disney exposure, it's no secret that Disney is what attracted most people to KH, and if Disney is in a good position, KH is probably too.

-During the Smash Ballot, KH hype was still at an all time high. In 2013 KH3 was announced which was probably THE biggest news of E3 2013 outside of Smash, as that game was becoming infamous in the same way Duke Nukem Forever was, it was in limbo. The only other games that i can think had such big impact on their reveals were FF7 Remake, The Last Guardian, Shenmue 3 and Final Fantasy XV, which all share the same issue of KH3 of being in development hell for a long time. Even if KH3 didn't lived up to the expectations of most people, the fact that it was released and was at least not a disaster compared to the likes of DKF is no small feat.

I do believe Sora was more voted than the likes of DS and Chrom, the Belmonts, K.Rool and Ridley as KH's fanbase is large and vocal, the ONLY character who i think could have gotten more votes was Steve, who im actually shocked hasn't been mentioned as a big ballot choice as Minecraft is the best selling game of all time. The only reason i can think of, is that Minecraft's fanbase while huge, wasn't vocal during 2015, the era when the Ballot happened.

This may be hard to believe, but during 2014-2017, Minecraft wasn't that popular, most of the fans that played that game moved on and would not revisit that game until a few years later in 2019 (the game's 10th anniversary). During the mid 2010's MC was seen as the "Cringe" game (what didn't help is that in the 2010's Cringe Culture was also big, you can thank Commentary channels like Leafy for that), in the same way Fortnite is seen today (this is all part of a larger phenomenon, called "Popularity Polynomial") so during those days even if Minecraft was played by millions of people, those people were the silent majority that didn't even bothered to vote Steve on the Ballot, and the "Hardcore Gamers" either saw it as "Cringe" or if they did vote for Steve for the Ballot, it wasn't enough to outrank Sora. KH's fanbase and consumer base may not be as large as MC's, but they sure as Vocal and passionate, and 10 passionate fans can leave a bigger impact than a 100 consumers who play the game just because they like it or is the "popular thing".

What i am saying is tht if you think Steve's negative's reaction from certain fans back in 2020 were off, you don't wanna image how much more devisive he would have been during Smash 4 DLC.

So yeah, Sora won the Ballot.

 

[Sucumbio]

What is he even from?

Had to look it up lol something called Under Night In-Birth

(his pm iteration looks broken af but I suppose everyone is broken in pm )

 

[Nekoo]

But if you think a community is bad... why engage with them?

How can you know a community is bad, if you don't personally engage with them.
Just skipping through some post might not be enough, hearing what people says might not be enough.

Going yourself there, and talking is how it works, if it wasn't. I wouldn't go near the smash community with how horrible of a reputation we have, or wouldn't have made some genuine friends here in this forum, who support a characters I don't like, just because "EW THEYRE PART OF THIS COMMUNITY OF X CHARACTER"
going there, and posting in a character you don't support, might be a way for you to understand their view, and yourself want that character in.


Why have Support thread, if it's just to be an echo chamber, and not allow people from the outside to enjoy your character, or talk about it, even confronting their view?

 

[Dinoman96]

I kinda doubt Steve was really that big on the ballot considering that Minecraft wasn't even announced for a Nintendo platform until December 2015, right after the ballot rapped up. Steve didn't really take off as a potential Smash candidate until Minecraft came to Wii U and then Switch.

 

[Megadoomer]

It's not that "The Ballot was Rigged for Bayo", it's that "Bayonetta was always going to be in Smash 4, she was just a cover up for the Ballot in Smash 4 as it was actually going to be used for Ultimate all along"

This is why when Bayo "won", they put "AMONG REALIZABLE CHARACTERS" with an asterix. She was the highest voted character...............if you exclude all the other ones that likely had more votes than her because they were:
-****post votes like Shrek or North Korea.
-Characters that Sakurai coulnd't add in Smash 4 as that game ended prodcution so they were saved for the next game: Sora, the Belmonts, Ridley, K.Rool, Chrom, Dark Samus, and Banjo & Kazooie.
-Characters that had more votes than Bayo, but were passed over because Sakurai had the above mentioned characters as priority as he simply couldn't add everyone due to time and resource constraints: Waluigi, Bomberman, Dixie Kong and Geno.


Yeah, it looks kinda scummy in hindsight, but i understand this was a white lie (well, maybe gray). They simply couldn't announce a new Smash game that soon, they waited for the Ballot to end on October and start right in November. This also fits with the Comment of a Former Mojang developer, who said that Steve took 5 years to negotiate and develop. This comment was made in Early October of 2020, fitting riiiight in with the development beginning of Smash Ultimate, meaning that yes, they were negotiating characters like Steve and Sora well in advance.

It's not a lie when they basically said "she ranked the highest out of characters that we could actually include" in the Direct where she was announced.

Obviously, any character who couldn't work on the 3DS couldn't be added, so that rules out Ice Climbers. Likewise, if companies like Konami, Microsoft, or Disney aren't going to cooperate, then the Smash developers can't add Snake, a Castlevania character, Banjo-Kazooie, Steve, or Sora, no matter how badly people want them.

The Smash developers seem dead-set on not having characters who play an active role in gameplay (assist trophies, stage hazards) get promoted to playable status within the same game, if the past 19 DLC characters are any indication. (so that meant that Isabelle, Waluigi, Ridley, etc. weren't going to be added to Smash 4)

She was listed as getting the most votes in Europe, and being in the top five in North America, without any disclaimers, and there's no reason to assume that was made up. Even if the overall top ten in the Smash Ballot (cutting out troll votes or non-video game characters) wound up being:

1. Sora
2. Snake
3. Steve
4. Ridley
5. Banjo and Kazooie
6. Geno
7. Waluigi
8. Isabelle
9. Ice Climbers
10. Bayonetta

...Bayonetta would still be the highest realizable character of that list.

I'm just tired of seeing this narrative that "the ballot was rigged so that Bayonetta could get in" when we were told shortly after her announcement that she was ranked the highest out of the characters that they could actually get/include. (Sora got the most votes in the Smash Ballot, but that meant nothing for Smash 4 if they couldn't convince Disney to include him)

 

[Dinoman96]

I think it's possible that K. Rool got more votes than Bayonetta.

It's just...well, they wanted to save K. Rool for Ultimate.

 

[Garteam]

I'm kind of surprised that people think we have a wait of 7-10 years before the next Smash, I predict we're instead looking at about 3-4 years.

The Switch is rapidly approaching its fifth birthday. The average lifespan for a piece of video game hardware since the seventh generation of consoles is about 7 years. Unless Nintendo is foregoing console generations altogether and is instead going to adopt the iPhone model of releasing more powerful and feature-rich models of the same hardware, I'd imagine details about the next Nintendo console are already being or have been decided.

Smash moves systems. Nintendo has known this since the Gamecube and, since then, they've always been very proactive to make sure their consoles have a Smash title on shelves before the end of that console's second year of life. I really don't see this changing with the Switch's successor, especially with how wildly successive Ultimate has been.

Honestly, if Nintendo wants Smash as a launch window title, it wouldn't surprise me if Smash 6 (or would it be Smash 7? Smash for 3DS is weird) is already in its planning phase and deals are being worked out with license holders for whatever third-parties appear in the game.

 

[Phoenix Douchebag]

I kinda doubt Steve was really that big on the ballot considering that Minecraft wasn't even announced for a Nintendo platform until December 2015, right after the ballot rapped up. Steve didn't really take off as a potential Smash candidate until Minecraft came to Wii U and then Switch.

I mean we have gotten many characters whose Nintendo presence were minimal (Joker) but you do bring up a great point. I guess i completely forgot about this detail because my brain assumed MC was already on Wii U on 2015 but it actually came out a year later.

Also that Banjo hype was really kicking in thanks Phil's tweet.

Snip

It is a Lie.....................by Omisson.

A Lie by Omission is a lie so great that they don't even need to lie to you.

For instace, i can tell you "Hey i have a car now, let's take a ride!". The Lie by Omisson, is that i don't tell you that the car was actually stolen.

Another example would be "i don't like that girl i don't find her to my tastes".................but in reality the person in question is gay and doesn't like women in general and the person simply don't wanna come out yet.

That is what was done for Bayo. She won only via elimination process. Anyone who got more votes than her was disqualified by default because were being saved for Ultimate or there simply wasn't enough time.

It's like winning a race because your opponent feel asleep and forgot there was a race today, you won the match, but you didn't won the match.

I don't see why it's so hard to accept that Bayo was never meant to be added as a Ballot choice, at least an intentional one. She was always meant to be in the game and the decided to use her as the Ballot "Winner" because they probably didn't want Square to get tangled in some legal shenanigan with Cloud (and for that reason i do believe Sora is the real winner because last thing Disney wants is a legal disaster, they are not in a good shape right now)

Just to put things into perspective, Sakurai went into Platinum's Headquarters in 2012 and Smash 4 started development in 2012, if that doesnt convince you i don't know what will. It's not reaching when you realize that as i stated earlier, Minecraft Steve was in negotiations since 2015, when Smash Ultimate started development.

I'm not saying this to clown on Bayo fans, but to put into perspective that Sakurai really cared about adding fan-favorites and decided that the only real way to know who people wanted was by asking them directly for next game's feedback, he just needed to do some...................let's just say "compromises" along the way for this to be done.

TL;DR companies and people can lie.

 

[Adrianette Bromide]

Maybe I'm just missing something, but I'm not sure why anyone would even post on the support threads of characters they don't, well, support. The only reason I can think of would be to start a ruckus. It's strange.

Of course, I'd say this exact same thing about people from said support threads coming into this one also looking for a fight.

I'd say the bulk of the issues with the Geno thread could have been avoided if people - from both ends - had just left eachother alone. I'm sure plenty of those involved had no ill intent, but there was definitely a lot of deliberate pot-stirring coming from users of both threads.

Cross community interaction is cool and honestly, I love that both Banjo and Steve fans were rewarded (the good ones anyway) in the end with both Microsoft owned properties. But it's very stinky when people just come in to other threads to gloat on other char's chances, even if they are admittedly low. I've seen someone from the Cinderace thread jump into the Rillaboom one just to point out how low their chances are and I saw it again with a Geno supporter in the King Boo thread.

It just kinda takes a little bit of effort to be respectful sometimes.

I kinda doubt Steve was really that big on the ballot considering that Minecraft wasn't even announced for a Nintendo platform until December 2015, right after the ballot rapped up. Steve didn't really take off as a potential Smash candidate until Minecraft came to Wii U and then Switch.

I'll add a little something to this, Minecraft was generally on a little bit of a popularity decline and Steve would have generally be seen as like a meme pick. But around 2018, Minecraft saw a resurgence in popularity due to nostalgia and I think genuine Minecraft fans who were also Smash fans genuinely wanted Steve in Smash.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

What got Steve into Ultimte anyways was a combination of Nintendo's and Microsoft's relationship and being the best-selling game of all time. Of course Nintendo is probably gonna want him in due to the latter.

 

[Momotsuki]

I still can't get over what a great job they did with Steve... You'd really think he'd have been unplayably janky looking at the Sakurai Presents, but... nope! He flows super well, to the point where once you get into the zone, he feels way less complicated than he truly is. He may very well be Ultimate's single most technically impressive newcomer...

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Maybe I'm just missing something, but I'm not sure why anyone would even post on the support threads of characters they don't, well, support. The only reason I can think of would be to start a ruckus. It's strange.

Of course, I'd say this exact same thing about people from said support threads coming into this one also looking for a fight.

I'd say the bulk of the issues with the Geno thread could have been avoided if people - from both ends - had just left eachother alone. I'm sure plenty of those involved had no ill intent, but there was definitely a lot of deliberate pot-stirring coming from users of both threads.

One potential reason is unfamiliarity and asking to get some info surrounding the characters and/or franchises, though as for the Geno thread, my only post was when El Hermano Gordo Forma Hielo made a post there about how upset he was that people didn't blindly believe him, thing is, if 95% of the post is quotes, chances are I'll get a tag, to which I popped up and said "Don't do that if you don't want drama". Got like 30 likes for that for some reason iirc

 

[GilTheGreat19]

I don't get how Bayonetta could be the most realizable character, though. Is it because she had relevance at the time, so Nintendo felt they weren't taking a risk by adding her over fan favorites who haven't appeared in games in a while like Geno and K. Rool (then)?

 

[Rie Sonomura]

I just don’t understand

why did Overweight Person On A Frozen Lake need to make all those fake ass leaks?

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

I just don’t understand

why did Overweight Person On A Frozen Lake need to make all those fake ass leaks?

For attention.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I just don’t understand

why did Overweight Person On A Frozen Lake need to make all those fake ass leaks?

The same reason anybody does. Attention. When first called out that his source considered him a nuisance and kicked him out of the server, El Hermano went ape****, threw out the blackmail accusation and not even a day later went "Wow the people who were blackmailed we so grateful they gave me the info they were literally blackmailed for as a reward" as if the real world was a fairy tale

 

[Nekoo]

I just don’t understand

why did Overweight Person On A Frozen Lake need to make all those fake ass leaks?

...
Took me a while to get it. Clever.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

The same reason anybody does. Attention. When first called out that his source considered him a nuisance and kicked him out of the server, El Hermano went ape****, threw out the blackmail accusation and not even a day later went "Wow the people who were blackmailed we so grateful they gave me the info they were literally blackmailed for as a reward" as if the real world was a fairy tale

I hope next game’s leak culture doesn’t reach these insane heights

oh who am I kidding the peak was He Who Must Not Be Named’s entire BS. even if it’s not the same people we’ll get similar chaos

 

[Guynamednelson]

I don't get how Bayonetta could be the most realizable character, though. Is it because she had relevance at the time, so Nintendo felt they weren't taking a risk by adding her over fan favorites who haven't appeared in games in a while like Geno and K. Rool (then)?

This was the Wii U era, so Nintendo didn't want to pay Disney's fees.

 

[Garteam]

I think Vergeben was easily the best of Ultimate's leakers. He didn't play games (well, except for that time he said a Gen 7 Pokemon was in but it wasn't Decidueye, Mimikyu, or Lycanroc, but that's a minor exception), wasn't trying to build some weird cult-of-personality around himself, and was pretty consistently correct.

 

[SNEKeater]

I feel like some people just twist everything surrounding Bayo's inclusion.
They never said "she won the Ballot", afaik. And the "among realizable characters" isn't an excuse.

If you do a poll and you can't include the top 5 characters for multiple reasons, and the next one in line was Bayonetta... Then she would still be the top choice or one of the top choices, after the ones that weren't possible.
Like, for all what we know maybe the top 10 was a combination of non-videogame characters such as Goku, Shrek and Ironman, and then a bunch of characters they couldn't get for reasons like Disney/Konami or others not willing to collaborate, or at least not for Smash 4.

K. Rool and Ridley obviously ranked very high though, but I assume Ridley was out in Sakurai's eyes in regards to Smash 4 considering his role in the game. I don't remember when the K. Rool costume came out, but maybe at that point they already decided on adding him for Ultimate, so they just decided to save him for the next game.

In any case, even if a character ranked very high and Sakurai wanted to include them, if Nintendo isn't into the idea, then that's it. Bayonetta had very good circumstances in her favor: Bayonetta 2 was recent, it was a Nintendo exclusive game, and I assume that by then Nintendo wanted to keep her close in the future.
Also, there was absolutely fan demand for her. The difference is that she wasn't really that big among core Smash speculators. In other circles, though? She definitely was a big and frequent name.

Claiming she wasn't a popular request is like claiming Steve or a Dragon Quest character weren't popular requests just because they weren't big on super centric Smash places like Smashboards. Even Sora would partly suffer from this, a good amount of the support I've seen for him in the past years has come from Kingdom Hearts fans that were excited about the idea but that barely participated in Smash speculation. And not even all of them played Smash.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

I think Vergeben was easily the best of Ultimate's leakers. He didn't play games (well, except for that time he said a Gen 7 Pokemon was in but it wasn't Decidueye, Mimikyu, or Lycanroc, but that's a minor exception), wasn't trying to build some weird cult-of-personality around himself, and was pretty consistently correct.

He was unfortunately absent for the most part during DLC and got Master Chief horribly wrong, it was Kazuya instead

so basically, for base game, he was great. DLC, not so much

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Basically a lot of the Smash 4 era was Nintendo essentially planning for the next Smash (on a hopefully more successful console) while trying to deliver worthwhile content to the current game, and at times (rather awkwardly) attempting to merge both efforts.

 

[Momotsuki]

Vergeben should have vanished with his clout intact once the base game had dropped. He didn't know when to fold 'em and now a lot of people remember him less for the base game and more for the ****show that was FP5.

 

[Garteam]

I think people really sleep on the additions Smash for Wii U/3DS made to the franchise.

, , , , , , 's return, , and are all pretty major steps for Smash's roster, but they're kind of taken for granted nowadays. Smash for Wii U/3DS was also pretty good about adding fan favourites from the time with stuff like , , , , and .

While I would say Brawl and Ultimate have slightly better newcomers, Smash for Wii U/3DS still had a pretty amazing line-up.

 

[Theguy123]

He was unfortunately absent for the most part during DLC and got Master Chief horribly wrong, it was Kazuya instead

so basically, for base game, he was great. DLC, not so much

still got hero, banjo, sethiroth (technically), byleth and steve right though. He called all them before anyone else. Wouldn’t necessarily say that’s him being absent for the dlc

for references in case anyone asks how he Called these

hero- 7 squares name leak

Banjo- said banjo before his announcement but tbf a lot were leaking him easily so he wasn’t the first

Steve- said Steve was in when pass 1 was a thing and it happened in pass 2. He gets credit for this though As it was confirmed Steve took several years of negotiating so he probably heard Steve early on in development

sethiroth- 7 squares leak

Byleth- leaked an hour before his reveal

 

[Garteam]

He was unfortunately absent for the most part during DLC and got Master Chief horribly wrong, it was Kazuya instead

so basically, for base game, he was great. DLC, not so much

...I completely forgot about the Master Chief stuff from E3.

Either way, I think you said it better than I could. Amazing performance during the base game followed by some hits and a lot misses in the DLC. Wasn't Vergeben one of the first people to give Erdrick a significant degree of attention?

 

[Momotsuki]

I think people really sleep on the additions Smash for Wii U/3DS made to the franchise.

, , , , , , 's return, , and are all pretty major steps for Smash's roster, but they're kind of taken for granted nowadays. Smash for Wii U/3DS was also pretty good about adding fan favourites from the time with stuff like , , , , and .

While I would say Brawl and Ultimate have slightly better newcomers, Smash for Wii U/3DS still had a pretty amazing line-up.

This reminds me, what ever happened to Duck Hunt? Everyone was all over them, swore they'd main them before Smash for 3DS launched, and then... nothing. They arguably faded even further into the background in Ultimate.
What happened? They're not a bad character by any means, though they're almost certainly the hardest of the mid-tiers.