Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[zriL]

Thought that was Kingdom Hearts?

Thought that was Tales of ?

 

[DarthEnderX]

Dragon Slayer, Tower Of Druaga and Hydlide are like the 3 games used to define the Action RPG in Japan. (Although Tower Of Druaga isn't really an RPG but that is a personal thing.)

Being first doesn't automatically mean you inspired what came after.

In fact, if anything, those games' "bump into stuff until it dies, or you do" gameplay probably informed later games of what NOT to do.

 

[SNEKeater]

I don't know what timeline I'm in where people seem to think a Falcom character is likely. But it seems blessed.

Personally I don't think they're likely. Not impossible though.
I guess the difference is that now we are aware modest third party companies or series are able to get a character, even if that has only happened once with Terry, or twice, if we count Atlus separately. So people started considering other options, and our subconscious also changed: a few years ago most people would have laughed at the idea of getting a SNK/Atlus character.

In my eyes Falcom isn't a lock or anything at all, but if they happened to get a character in Smash, it would make sense in it's own right.

Terry did make sense though. His games we're what inspired Smash and without them we wouldn't have it. I'm just surprised it took Terry this long...

I agree it makes sense for different reasons, but to be honest I don't think Nintendo chose a SNK character because of that. I mean, probably the higher execs at Nintendo don't know the fact that Fatal Fury/KoF was an inspiration for Smash. And to be honest, I didn't knew that until Terry's announcement, when people started digging old interviews of Sakurai.

 

[Cosmic77]

If Terry was really that obvious, we would've frequently seen his name during speculation. We didn't though, and that's because SNK characters in general were glossed over because characters from companies already in Smash and characters from extremely iconic and/or highly relevant franchises were given the most attention.

He's obvious in hindsight, but isn't almost every character obvious after they're revealed?

 

[cashregister9]

Being first doesn't automatically mean you inspired what came after.

In fact, if anything, those games' "bump into stuff until it dies, or you do" gameplay probably informed later games of what NOT to do.

That is why I added the Ys and Xanadu clarification.

 

[Pillow]

Friendly reminder that the Tower of Druaga games are...not very good. But legacy and influence are often tied together

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Personally I don't think they're likely. Not impossible though.
I guess the difference is that now we are aware modest third party companies or series are able to get a character, even if that has only happened once with Terry, or twice, if we count Atlus separately. So people started considering other options, and our subsconcious also changed: a few years ago most people would have laughed at the idea of getting a SNK/Atlus character.

Pretty much, I don’t think anyone would have taken you seriously back in 2018 if you said was a likely DLC pick.

If Terry was really that obvious, we would've frequently seen his name during speculation. We didn't though, and that's because SNK characters in general were glossed over because characters from companies already in Smash and characters from extremely iconic and/or highly relevant franchises were given the most attention.

He's obvious in hindsight, but isn't almost every character obvious after they're revealed?

Min Min, Pyra, Mythra and Sephiroth were so obvious for FP2 all along if you could predict the future.

 

[Ayumi Tachibana]

Falcom just finished their anniversary stream, here's the results of their latest popularity poll. I'm surprised, but quite pleased to see Adol as first place. Trails of Cold Steel just got an anime announced, too.

It says, midterm result on the right up. The poll is still on going until 3/31.
They have still yet to announce the results of "The Most Liked Falcom Games", and "The Most Liked Ys/Trails Games".

EDIT: Oh, the others were already posted, sorry. I think I'll just hide them to save space.

Spoiler: Other midterm results

Here are the other midterm results they announced.

The First Played Falcom Games

1. Trails in the Sky FC
2. Trails of Cold Steel
3. Ys I

The Most Liked Falcom Music

1. Silver Will, Golden Wings (Trails in the SKY SC)
2. TO MAKE THE END OF BATTLE (Ys II)
3. Whereabouts of the Stars (Trails in the SKY FC)

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Was a Falcom rep ever even rumored heavily? I don’t recall that ever happening.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Was a Falcom rep ever even rumored heavily? I don’t recall that ever happening.

Yo SharkLord now’s a good time to bring up that Falcom “leak”

 

[Flyboy]

Was a Falcom rep ever even rumored heavily? I don’t recall that ever happening.

There was a single "leak" that predicted a bunch of Falcom games on Switch as well as new game announcements, and said that a Falcom rep would come to Smash, but this was back in June I believe and wasn't very credible and it flew under the radar anyway so tbh I think people are just putting some respect on a really long-running company's name.

 

[Pillow]

If Terry was really that obvious, we would've frequently seen his name during speculation. We didn't though, and that's because SNK characters in general were glossed over because characters from companies already in Smash and characters from extremely iconic and/or highly relevant franchises were given the most attention.

He's obvious in hindsight, but isn't almost every character obvious after they're revealed?

Terry and Joker make sense in hindsight, but were still never obvious. The rest were all somewhat obvious once you realize what was "holding them back" didn't really matter. Piranha Plant never made sense, but that's fine.

 

[RGFS]

Terry and Joker make sense in hindsight, but were still never obvious. The rest were all somewhat obvious once you realize what was "holding them back" didn't really matter. Piranha Plant never made sense, but that's fine.

If I knew who Terry was, I would have predicted him tbh. I was betting on the fourth fighter being a Japanese fighting game character basically because Ryu was the 4th DLC character in Smash 4. (Dumb but it was basically right.) I was placing my money on Heihachi since his costume wasn't back. If I knew about SNK and knew Sakurai King of Fighters/Fatal Fury while getting the inspiration for Smash instead of Street Fighter like I originally thought, I would've bet on Terry without a doubt.

When I first played Super Smash Bros, everyone but Mario, Zelda, and Pokemon characters were "Literally who?" to me so it isn't enough to say the character is less recognizable to a group of people if they have something making them notable enough.

 

[SNEKeater]

Was a Falcom rep ever even rumored heavily? I don’t recall that ever happening.

As Rie and Flyboy mentioned, there was a 4chan leak involving Falcom that gained some traction around here back then, mostly because it predicted some Falcom announcements correctly.
I don't remember the details but I also recall some things from the leak have not happened, or at least not yet. So for now even if part of the info was legit, I think it's safe to assume that the Smash part was probably false info or a case of a leaker knowing some legit info and then throwing Smash in there because yes, like happened with Devil May Cry 5.

About Smash the guy who posted the leak said he didn't knew who was the character but he believed it was either Adol or Rean Schwarzer.

 

[Pillow]

If I knew who Terry was, I would have predicted him tbh. I was betting on the fourth fighter being a Japanese fighting game character basically because Ryu was the 4th DLC character in Smash 4. (Dumb but it was basically right.) I was placing my money on Heihachi since his costume wasn't back. If I knew about SNK and knew Sakurai King of Fighters/Fatal Fury while getting the inspiration for Smash instead of Street Fighter like I originally thought, I would've bet on Terry without a doubt.

When I first played Super Smash Bros, everyone but Mario, Zelda, and Pokemon characters were "Literally who?" to me so it isn't enough to say the character is less recognizable to a group of people if they have something making them notable enough.

I'm not doubting you. When I say obvious, I meant for most people. Every character we received was probably predicted by someone. Terry was a relatively unknown character before his inclusion in Smash. In terms of fighting games, KOF is notable, but is still a less prominent franchise than something like Tekken (who could've easily been represented by someone like Jin if they didn't want Heihachi).

I also recognized him, as I played a bit of KOF at arcades when I was a kid, but even after his reveal I would never call him a predictabo choice. Does he make sense? Sure.

 

[SharkLord]

Was a Falcom rep ever even rumored heavily? I don’t recall that ever happening.

This
/v/ - Video Games » Thread #513418360 (b4k.co)
From back in summer. Fairly recent, but at this point I think it's fake. They wouldn't know about one of the last two fighters so far in advance.

 

[DevaAshera]

Neither did Fire Emblem. But it kept getting new characters.

These days, yes. But not when it started getting more characters.

Bottom line is, this notion you have of new releases NEEDING representation is nonsense. It's never BEEN the case. Nintendo just pushes whoever they feel like. It's not consistent. And if FE characters keep getting massive backlashes, they might stop doing it every game.

Fire Emblem only ever had two characters per Smash game until after Awakening, which was when it became massively popular. F-Zero was already on its last legs come Brawl..

In order to represent a new game in the series with a new cast each game, a new character is needed, they can't be represented by older characters accurately. It'd be the same way with Final Fantasy and Persona were they Nintendo series..Its okay to cut older, no longer relevant Fire Emblem characters to make room for newer, more relevant ones. It allows the newest game to be represented while keeping the FE Roster from becoming bloated like it is.
Are you going to complain about each new Pokémon we get too regardless of how they play? Cuz that's the exact same thing.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

I mean, I was aware of Terry and SNK through King of Fighters XIII but I don’t think I would’ve ever guessed Terry in Smash. Most notably because of how uncertain SNK’s future seemed for so long between KoFXIII and KoFXIV. They kind of just disappeared for quite some time and then had a huge resurgence, like within the last 4 years.

That’s no small feat to say that Nintendo either had the foresight to see SNK making a come back or trying to make a new ally and get them back on track but the ACA series launching day one with Switch, the success of KoFXIV, and the succeeding storm of SNK legacy showing up in games like Tekken, Dead or Alive, Smash, Fighting EX Layer, and more is just pure and simple ingenuity.

 

[DevaAshera]

He's the most popular male character according to the first CYL. Heroes has a lot higher sales than any other FE game, and I bet more players (I don't feel like looking that up). It's absurd to brush that aside.

He is, but as a character he's no longer relevant as his games are quite old by this point. Popularity & Relevance are different things..like Cloud wasn't super relevant when he was added to Smash, though he's clearly the most popular FF character, but he is relevant now due to FFVII Remake. I do advocate keeping him over not, but between him, Robin, Corrin, & Byleth, he's the least different from Marth.

It's also why I want Lyn added, due to being the most popular female character and adding a female FE that isn't a clone of alternate costume.

 

[DarthEnderX]

That is why I added the Ys and Xanadu clarification.

Ys was also "bump into stuff until it dies, or you do" combat for the first several installments.

Are you going to complain about each new Pokémon we get too regardless of how they play?

Probably. But at least Pokemon has the excuse of being, like, the most successful franchise on the planet.

FE is doing good these days, but it ain't THAT.

 

[Pillow]

Fire Emblem only ever had two characters per Smash game until after Awakening, which was when it became massively popular. F-Zero was already on its last legs come Brawl..

In order to represent a new game in the series with a new cast each game, a new character is needed, they can't be represented by older characters accurately. It'd be the same way with Final Fantasy and Persona were they Nintendo series..Its okay to cut older, no longer relevant Fire Emblem characters to make room for newer, more relevant ones. It allows the newest game to be represented while keeping the FE Roster from becoming bloated like it is.
Are you going to complain about each new Pokémon we get too regardless of how they play? Cuz that's the exact same thing.

While I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying here, I'd like to point out that Smash doesn't always care about relevancy when representing franchises. Sheik is still in the game over Impa, and Ganon's design went backwards from Twilight Princess to OOT. Mario still uses FLUDD. A lot of characters in general use their classic designs over more modern ones. Fire Emblem and Pokemon have been exceptions thus far, but that could always stop. Honestly I could see Xenoblade taking Fire Emblem's place as the "one character per new game" franchise if Xenoblade continues to be a Nintendo flagship series.

I mean, I think as aware of Terry and SNK through King of Fighters XIII but I don’t think I would’ve ever guessed Terry in Smash. Most notably because of how uncertain SNK’s future seemed for so long between KoFXIII and KoFXIV. They kind of just disappeared for quite some time and then had a huge resurgence, like within the last 4 years.

That’s no small feat to say that Nintendo either had the foresight to see SNK making a come back or trying to make a new ally and get them back on track but the ACA series launching day one with Switch, the success of KoFXIV, and the succeeding storm of SNK legacy showing up in games like Tekken, Dead or Alive, Smash, Fighting EX Layer, and more is just pure and simple ingenuity.

Even when SNK was spoiled a day before Terry's release, people weren't fully confident in Terry who, for that brief moment in time, actually was the obvious choice. I thought we were going to get Nakoruru or Haohmaru because the SamSho reboot was recent at the time and received a Switch port. So yeah...but I'm still not so sure it's brilliant Nintendo foresight so much as Sakurai simply liking the character and his franchise.

 

[DarthEnderX]

When I first played Super Smash Bros, everyone but Mario, Zelda, and Pokemon characters were "Literally who?" to me so it isn't enough to say the character is less recognizable to a group of people if they have something making them notable enough.

I didn't get stumped till melee. Where I didn't recognize G&W or the FE boys.

Since then, the only characters I ever don't recognize are some of the FE characters.

 

[Speed Weed]

Fire Emblem only ever had two characters per Smash game until after Awakening, which was when it became massively popular. F-Zero was already on its last legs come Brawl..

In order to represent a new game in the series with a new cast each game, a new character is needed, they can't be represented by older characters accurately. It'd be the same way with Final Fantasy and Persona were they Nintendo series..Its okay to cut older, no longer relevant Fire Emblem characters to make room for newer, more relevant ones. It allows the newest game to be represented while keeping the FE Roster from becoming bloated like it is.
Are you going to complain about each new Pokémon we get too regardless of how they play? Cuz that's the exact same thing.

With all due respect, I think cutting older characters just so that you can have the new hotness in their place is an awful mindset that ignores any value or fanbase these older characters might have and makes for a boring roster that dates itself quickly

 

[Ivander]

This
/v/ - Video Games » Thread #513418360 (b4k.co)
From back in summer. Fairly recent, but at this point I think it's fake. They wouldn't know about one of the last two fighters so far in advance.

Possibly. But a reminder that Steve was in talks for a long time, and Minecraft was leaked and talked about before Ultimate's release and it took until Fighter Pass 2 before Steve actually became a thing.

Like I'm definitely not denying that it's just as likely fake, but we've had a case where a franchise was supposedly leaked as early as before Ultimate's release and it took a long time for them to get in. Only time will tell.

 

[DarthEnderX]

With all due respect, I think cutting older characters just so that you can have the new hotness in their place is an awful mindset that ignores any value or fanbase these older characters might have and makes for a boring roster that dates itself quickly

For evidence, See: Playstation All-Stars, where they were repeatedly forced to use the new hotness over older classics. And people hated it.

 

[N3ON]

Predicting a character that almost no one sees coming is more characteristic of luck than skill, tbh. Because for every correct prediction of that nature, there are going to be dozens of incorrect ones floating around.

Also, regarding SNK specifically, we can’t overlook that as far as third parties go, they were probably dirt cheap to license. I mean even Arika acquired Terry, and Fighting EX Layer wasn’t exactly made with a... sizeable budget.

 

[Pillow]

I didn't get stumped till melee. Where I didn't recognize G&W or the FE boys.

For me it was
64 - Ness
Melee - fire emblem, g&w, ice climbers
Brawl - Rob, Pit

Since then I’ve pretty much known all the characters/franchises.

 

[Shroob]

So they actually added 2 more World of Light spots?

Yeah, I'm 100% finally convinced that those are just meaningless placeholders now.

 

[Otoad64]

In order to represent a new game in the series with a new cast each game, a new character is needed, they can't be represented by older characters accurately. It'd be the same way with Final Fantasy and Persona were they Nintendo series..Its okay to cut older, no longer relevant Fire Emblem characters to make room for newer, more relevant ones. It allows the newest game to be represented while keeping the FE Roster from becoming bloated like it is.
Are you going to complain about each new Pokémon we get too regardless of how they play? Cuz that's the exact same thing.

except you don't need to represent the newest game in the series with a fighter

 

[Diddy Kong]

Retrospectively, all Fire Emblem characters make sense. Maybe safe for Corrin. But all other Fire Emblem characters I'd keep.

 

[Pillow]

Predicting a character that almost no one sees coming is more characteristic of luck than skill, tbh. Because for every correct prediction of that nature, there are going to be dozens of incorrect ones floating around.

Also, regarding SNK specifically, we can’t overlook that as far as third parties go, they were probably dirt cheap to license. I mean even Arika acquired Terry, and Fighting EX Layer wasn’t exactly made with a... sizeable budget.

Hey don't say that. I guessed we'd get a Xenoblade character last time, and if my prediction that our next character is from Dark Souls and the Lloyd costume returns with him then Sakurai will let me choose the last fighter!

Retrospectively, all Fire Emblem characters make sense. Maybe safe for Corrin. But all other Fire Emblem characters I'd keep.

If we don't get to keep all of them, then I'd personally cut all of them except Marth (with Lucina Echo) and Byleth if it means we get some new blood in their place.

 

[DevaAshera]

While I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying here, I'd like to point out that Smash doesn't always care about relevancy when representing franchises. Sheik is still in the game over Impa, and Ganon's design went backwards from Twilight Princess to OOT. Mario still uses FLUDD. A lot of characters in general use their classic designs over more modern ones. Fire Emblem and Pokemon have been exceptions thus far, but that could always stop. Honestly I could see Xenoblade taking Fire Emblem's place as the "one character per new game" franchise if Xenoblade continues to be a Nintendo flagship series.

That's mostly due to most of those characters still being relevant, or popular, and they still add and change designs to match the newest games..typically. Zelda & Ganon are outliers here due to Ganondorf not appearing in BotW, which is why Zelda characters kept their TP designs in Wii U & 3DS, and Link's TP design being similar to his Skyward Sword one, but this time BotW was so massively popular that Link practically needed that design, so Sakurai decided to represent different Zelda games with the others, aside from Sheik's BotW inspired new look. I can't think of too many characters that use older main console designs over newer ones in Smash.
Sheik primarily survived due to, at first, being tied to Zelda and now popularity, though still consistently being given a more relevant design even though she didn't appear in TP and BotW.
Mario still uses FLUDD and Cape due to just being parts of his moveset, but still had Cappy added to Super Jump Punch and a Taunt.
I honestly see both Fire Emblem and Xenoblade getting new characters per game, not one or the other.

Also, as a side note, due to the Remake of Ocarina of Time, Ganondorf's most recent design was his OoT one.

With all due respect, I think cutting older characters just so that you can have the new hotness in their place is an awful mindset that ignores any value or fanbase these older characters might have and makes for a boring roster that dates itself quickly

Perhaps, but that hardly matters when the game itself will only be relevant for a short time as is.
Every character has their fans and cuts tend to need to happen, so removing a portion of no longer relevant characters is the better than not including new characters.
Like Corrin has fans but I feel like her removal for a newer character isn't the worst, just like when we lost Roy and he was essentially replaced by Ike, a newer, more relevant character..or in Mario Kart when Donkey Kong Jr and Koopa were replaced by the more relevant Donkey Kong (DKC) and Wario.

except you don't need to represent the newest game in the series with a fighter

There's not much else you can do to represent the newest game in Smash..trophies & Spirits are rather poor representation for a new game and a stage without a character is an odd choice. When you represent the newest game with such things instead of a character, people feel a bit underwhelmed, like the Xenoblade X & Xenoblade 2 fanbase felt about their representation until Pyra/Mythra (and still feel about the lack of Elma).

 

[SharkLord]

I think it'd take a bit of weight off of FE's representation if they just went all-in with Echo Fighters next game. Make a ton of quite, low-effort clones, and hide them behind the main fighter's slot. Emphasize they're just alts with extra steps, and apply it to everyone. That way, it's clear that Echoes aren't counted as full fighters. Remove Corrin, and we're down to five FE characters rather than eight.

Granted, it might not be an entirely realistic outcome...

 

[ZelDan]

Retrospectively, all Fire Emblem characters make sense. Maybe safe for Corrin. But all other Fire Emblem characters I'd keep.

Eh, I'd say we don't really need 3 Awakening reps. I get Awakening is huge for FE for saving the franchise, which is why I can accept 2 characters, but 3 is a bit overkill.

Also, I don't know if Roy really makes. His game, AFAIK, was never really that popular or loved compared to other titles older or newer than it, and Roy himself isn't really popular within the FE fanbase, and might actually be a bit of the opposite just because of how weak of a lord he is from what I hear.

 

[Opossum]

That's mostly due to most of those characters still being relevant, or popular, and they still add and change designs to match the newest games..typically. Zelda & Ganon are outliers here due to Ganondorf not appearing in BotW, which is why Zelda characters kept their TP designs in Wii U & 3DS, and Link's TP design being similar to his Skyward Sword one, but this time BotW was so massively popular that Link practically needed that design, so Sakurai decided to represent different Zelda games with the others, aside from Sheik's BotW inspired new look. I can't think of too many characters that use older main console designs over newer ones in Smash.
Sheik primarily survived due to, at first, being tied to Zelda and now popularity, though still consistently being given a more relevant design even though she didn't appear in TP and BotW.
Mario still uses FLUDD and Cape due to just being parts of his moveset, but still had Cappy added to Super Jump Punch and a Taunt.
I honestly see both Fire Emblem and Xenoblade getting new characters per game, not one or the other.

Also, as a side note, due to the Remake of Ocarina of Time, Ganondorf's most recent design was his OoT one.

Perhaps, but that hardly matters when the game itself will only be relevant for a short time as is.
Every character has their fans and cuts tend to need to happen, so removing a portion of no longer relevant characters is the better than not including new characters.
Like Corrin has fans but I feel like her removal for a newer character isn't the worst, just like when we lost Roy and he was essentially replaced by Ike, a newer, more relevant character..or in Mario Kart when Donkey Kong Jr and Koopa were replaced by the more relevant Donkey Kong (DKC) and Wario.

There's not much else you can do to represent the newest game in Smash..trophies & Spirits are rather poor representation for a new game and a stage without a character is an odd choice. When you represent the newest game with such things instead of a character, people feel a bit underwhelmed, like the Xenoblade X & Xenoblade 2 fanbase felt about their representation until Pyra/Mythra (and still feel about the lack of Elma).

I feel like the idea that the old should be replaced by the new kind of falls apart when you realize that Roy was intended to be brought back for Brawl alongside Ike. He wasn't replaced, he was out prioritized and a victim of time constraints. He wasn't an intentional cut like Pichu or a literal replacement like Young Link being dropped for Toon Link.

 

[RGFS]

With all due respect, I think cutting older characters just so that you can have the new hotness in their place is an awful mindset that ignores any value or fanbase these older characters might have and makes for a boring roster that dates itself quickly

I wholeheartedly agree. Smash is about all of Nintendo and gaming, not just what just got relevant in March of 2021. You never know how much something like that will last or be remembered until two or three years later...

 

[True Blue Warrior]

except you don't need to represent the newest game in the series with a fighter

Well yeah, but “needs” don’t really factor into character selection. To pretend that it does would imply that there would be a grave consequence if Fire Emblem doesn’t get a newcomer for every new game when really the world would just move on and people would go “Oh, the newest Fire Emblem game doesn’t have a rep”

In a hypothetical scenario where Legend of Zelda got a newcomer for every new main game and Fire Emblem was stuck with just Marth, Roy and Ike forever, people would justify that decision by saying that LoZ, being one of the most iconic Nintendo franchises that constantly introduces new characters, would absolutely “need” that level of representation whereas Fire Emblem was “just perfectly represented” due to being much less iconic.

 

[DevaAshera]

If we don't get to keep all of them, then I'd personally cut all of them except Marth (with Lucina Echo) and Byleth if it means we get some new blood in their place.

I'd say keep Robin as well, due to his unique mage moveset, or replace him with a full mage character.

Moving away from their insistence on using the main characters, that always have swords, would help too..like putting in popular side characters like Edelgard, Tharja, etc may have been better due to them not using Swords at all.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

There's not much else you can do to represent the newest game in Smash..trophies & Spirits are rather poor representation for a new game and a stage without a character is an odd choice. When you represent the newest game with such things instead of a character, people feel a bit underwhelmed, like the Xenoblade X & Xenoblade 2 fanbase felt about their representation until Pyra/Mythra (and still feel about the lack of Elma).

We can’t please everyone. There’s plenty of Nintendo franchises that have nothing compared to FE and Xenoblade but they can’t do anything about it.

Also, I don't know if Roy really makes. His game, AFAIK, was never really that popular or loved compared to other titles older or newer than it, and Roy himself isn't really popular within the FE fanbase, and might actually be a bit of the opposite just because of how weak of a lord he is from what I hear.

Roy has a significant Japanese FE fanbase as he ranked first in a FE6 poll.

 

[SharkLord]

I think FE would benefit the most from a full revamp. Ever since Roy was added in Melee, the reps have been added based on the most recent game in the series. Generally, the main characters rep their games. The main characters of Fire Emblem are the Lords and Avatars, and the Lords and Avatars traditionally wield swords as their main weapon. As a result, we end up with a lot of swords, at the expense of every other weapon type. If we start from scratch, we can bring in some popular supporting characters instead, so they can represent the other weapon types.