Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[Rie Sonomura]

Regardless I do find it fishy that PP is the only individual DLC. I can’t see that bonus model going to waste

 

[Shroob]

Regardless I do find it fishy that PP is the only individual DLC. I can’t see that bonus model going to waste

I mean, same could be said as rebranding clones to Echoes.

nearly 3 years later and base game was it for them.

 

[Pillow]

A thought: what if we don’t get another pass

but instead, some last few individual DLC? Maybe 3 max if the 91 CSS limit is anything to go by?

I think a pass 3 is more likely, but it could go this way too. I’d imagine there will be a decently long break between pass 2 and further dlc fighters either way.

I don’t think the 91 CSS limit means anything at all. If they need more slots they can patch it without too much trouble.

 

[Evil Trapezium]

Quick question. Who would you pick as the final two characters?

Realistically, I’d go with Bandana Dee and Crash.

In my fantasy realm, I’d go with Sora and Crash.

Doom and Gloom: Cinderace and a New Fire Emblem protagonist that uses a sword.

Makes sense: Crash Bandicoot and Octoling

My fantasy picks would just scrap everyone from Fighter Pass 2 then I'd pick these characters instead.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

I can’t see the lifespan of Smash Ultimate, and especially the Smash 4 + DLC + Smash Ultimate + DLC development cycle lasting so long to get another four full-fledged challenger packs and fighters. Maybe Echoes? Maaaaybe bonus fighters but honestly you don’t need to fill the full 91.

 

[Knight Dude]

Still think we may get a Mecha-Fiora Mii. They’ve costumed I think all of the Mega Men and they appear in Mega Man’s FS. Fiora appears in Shulk’s.

No Volnutt or Geo as of yet.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

The 91 slots thing was more "cause it broke the CSS if it was more than that", not a matter of adding more data.

That said, PP isn't that suspicious. It's a Mewtwo case. A character that was released in a unique situation as a bonus DLC character if you purchased the game. I mean, the most suspicious is why it couldn't have been in the pass at best(but that doesn't mean much. Mewtwo is, again, not part of the regular DLC characters in 4 either. And at least it was cited that they couldn't throw it in base, though it sounds like it was always planned for DLC too). Keep in mind Sakurai wasn't originally greenlit for a Pass 2 and there were a few extra characters planned like PP. Things changed. Thus, they were not bonus DLC anymore.

They don't need to use it more. Really, if anything, we could use some individual other kinds of DLC besides Mii Costumes(which can't be bought in a bundle, so you have spend a lot of time downloading each one... and you're limited on how many you can download at once. Forget the price thing, but it's just tedious).

I feel the Echo thing is not a good analogy. They aren't rebranded clones. They're new variations with different rules to their designs. We already see in practice they have the exact same weight and attributes, but also the same bodyshapes(the first two are suggested to be a thing by Reggie, but it isn't proven wrong, while the third is directly stated by Sakurai. Clones do not have this, but Echoes do. He even made it clear that using someone as a base with similar moves does not mean an Echo, as Isabelle showed. She's most definitely a clone type of sorts, but not an Echo). No other clone follows both rules, semi-clone or regular. So they're actually different in the end. Is it arbitrary? Yeah. But it's not so arbitrary that Sakurai, because the reason he calls them arbitrary is because "the difference between a clone and Echo is not that notable". When he acknowledges they're different categories, they are definitely not rebrandings. They're just a new category of character design and that's all there is to it. Now, the real question is if he has a term for those characters who are almost like clones but not really(I.E. Wolf, Falcon in Smash 64 only, kind of Ness in Smash 64). Like, what's the real difference between using someone as a base and semi-clone? Anything? Tons of characters use a base but are clearly not similar(PP used Jr., for instance). Nonetheless, no such rebranding is done, since we still are getting clones not named Echoes. Whether semi or not(semi isn't even an official term), it's still done. Young Link is still a clone of Link in the end. He didn't magically get something new, and he's much closer to what we define as a semi-clone due to the huge bodyshape difference. That's kind of the issue with trying to say clone and semi-clone are actually different. Are they? We don't know cause of a lack of details. It's a fan term, and like all fan terms, don't necessarily line up with the developer's rules. Another reason why it can be called arbitrary is due to Smash 4. Two became an Echo, but Dr. Mario, who is not an Echo, was still called a clone in Ultimate overall.

The best way to put it accurately is all Echoes are Clones. Not all Clones are Echoes.

 

[Deleted member]

So far the 2nd Fighters Pass filled most of the most glaring holes from the base game's content:

• Lack of ARMS music
• 2 FFVII tracks
• only

The last 2 slots are gonna be interesting.

And outside of Wario, I don't think there's any first-party IP that is severely lacking in representation now.

 

[Mamboo07]

So far the 2nd Fighters Pass filled most of the most glaring holes from the base game's content:

• Lack of ARMS music
• 2 FFVII tracks
• only

The last 2 slots are gonna be interesting.

And outside of Wario, I don't think there's any first-party IP that is severely lacking in representation now.

Kirby, an entire chunk of representation from modern games are missing.

 

[Pillow]

I can’t see the lifespan of Smash Ultimate, and especially the Smash 4 + DLC + Smash Ultimate + DLC development cycle lasting so long to get another four full-fledged challenger packs and fighters. Maybe Echoes? Maaaaybe bonus fighters but honestly you don’t need to fill the full 91.

I believe Sakurai has stated that the development cycle that began with Smash 4 officially ends at FP2. If we get more DLC then it’s presumably alongside the start of a brand new development cycle, whatever that entails.

So far the 2nd Fighters Pass filled most of the most glaring holes from the base game's content:

• Lack of ARMS music
• 2 FFVII tracks
• only

The last 2 slots are gonna be interesting.

And outside of Wario, I don't think there's any first-party IP that is severely lacking in representation now.

The lack of gen 8 pokemon stuff is still notable.

 

[Shroob]

The 91 slots thing was more "cause it broke the CSS if it was more than that", not a matter of adding more data.

That said, PP isn't that suspicious. It's a Mewtwo case. A character that was released in a unique situation as a bonus DLC character if you purchased the game. I mean, the most suspicious is why it couldn't have been in the pass at best(but that doesn't mean much. Mewtwo is, again, not part of the regular DLC characters in 4 either. And at least it was cited that they couldn't throw it in base, though it sounds like it was always planned for DLC too). Keep in mind Sakurai wasn't originally greenlit for a Pass 2 and there were a few extra characters planned like PP. Things changed. Thus, they were not bonus DLC anymore.

They don't need to use it more. Really, if anything, we could use some individual other kinds of DLC besides Mii Costumes(which can't be bought in a bundle, so you have spend a lot of time downloading each one... and you're limited on how many you can download at once. Forget the price thing, but it's just tedious).

I feel the Echo thing is not a good analogy. They aren't rebranded clones. They're new variations with different rules to their designs. We already see in practice they have the exact same weight and attributes, but also the same bodyshapes(the first two are suggested to be a thing by Reggie, but it isn't proven wrong, while the third is directly stated by Sakurai. Clones do not have this, but Echoes do. He even made it clear that using someone as a base with similar moves does not mean an Echo, as Isabelle showed. She's most definitely a clone type of sorts, but not an Echo). No other clone follows both rules, semi-clone or regular. So they're actually different in the end. Is it arbitrary? Yeah. But it's not so arbitrary that Sakurai, because the reason he calls them arbitrary is because "the difference between a clone and Echo is not that notable". When he acknowledges they're different categories, they are definitely not rebrandings. They're just a new category of character design and that's all there is to it. Now, the real question is if he has a term for those characters who are almost like clones but not really(I.E. Wolf, Falcon in Smash 64 only, kind of Ness in Smash 64). Like, what's the real difference between using someone as a base and semi-clone? Anything? Tons of characters use a base but are clearly not similar(PP used Jr., for instance). Nonetheless, no such rebranding is done, since we still are getting clones not named Echoes. Whether semi or not(semi isn't even an official term), it's still done. Young Link is still a clone of Link in the end. He didn't magically get something new, and he's much closer to what we define as a semi-clone due to the huge bodyshape difference. That's kind of the issue with trying to say clone and semi-clone are actually different. Are they? We don't know cause of a lack of details. It's a fan term, and like all fan terms, don't necessarily line up with the developer's rules. Another reason why it can be called arbitrary is due to Smash 4. Two became an Echo, but Dr. Mario, who is not an Echo, was still called a clone in Ultimate overall.

The best way to put it accurately is all Echoes are Clones. Not all Clones are Echoes.

I mean, if you wanna get into the nitty gritty of it, I'd say that all clones are echoes


With the asterisk in that I don't really consider the Melee clones to be "clones" anymore. They're too different from their base to be considered as such, and at least to me, they fall under semi-clone. Pichu, Dr.Mario, Young Link and Roy all have enough differences to not really be called clones.


Lucina and Dark Pit though? They were clones in Smash 4, and they're echo fighters now. That's more or less what I'm saying.

 

[N3ON]

PLATINUM7 had me curious to go back and see what, if any, conversations about Pac-Man I was involved in prior to his inclusion. I ended up finding this, which was a funny little snapshot of things a few months before the Smash 4 reveal.

It's in response to one of Shortie's polls. The results are from early 2013. Interesting to see what I was very right about... and very wrong about.

Spoiler

I'll give my thoughts I guess.

1.Megaman [Capcom] 713

Him being in first isn't too surprising. Pretty much every demographic and place online wants Mega Man, except for the Nintendo purists. What is surprising is how far ahead he is. I'm guessing he's the only new 3rd party character Sakurai will go to the effort of approaching a company for, not counting the Namco characters, as they're in a bit of a different situation. Or, if not the only, he'd be the first one Sakurai attempts to add. If he isn't unveiled at E3, I don't imagine his popularity will go anywhere, unless Sakurai makes some negative statement regarding his chances.

2.Mewtwo [Pokemon] 622

Again, not too surprising. All this Mewtwo talk and promotion will probably push him higher in the coming weeks, but still not above Mega Man. Probably the most likely character to be added (or technically re-added). Not much to say about him that hasn't already been said. Expecting him to place just as highly post-E3.

3.Ridley [ Metroid] 501

Another not surprising place. Now that Ridley is the most wanted true Nintendo newcomer in the west, and Sakurai has been made aware of the want for a playable Ridley, and given a very non-committal answer like normal, but not a negative answer, I'm definitely expecting him. I'm also guessing he'll be revealed at E3, but if he's not, there will probably be people questioning if he is to appear playable at all. His overall popularity will be interesting once we can compare a western poll to an eastern poll.

4.Little Mac [Punch Out] 489

Considering how iconic and popular Punch-Out is in the west, this isn't too surprising. What is surprising is, although a lot exists, we rarely hear very vocal Mac support. I'm pretty confident he'll be added, he's pretty much the biggest unrepresented IP left, that Sakurai hasn't dismissed. Some people say he won't get in because he's too bland... but that's nonsense.

I am surprised he's above K. Rool though. He definitely wouldn't be on a Japanese poll. In fact, he'd be pretty close to the bottom. Definite localized popularity, but enough that Sakurai will still take notice.

5.King K. Rool [Donkey Kong] 465

Makes sense, even if he hasn't had a very large role for a long time. Unless Sakurai is dead set on returning to adding Dixie, which I doubt, I'd say this guy has one of the best chances. Universal popularity, importance in a major series, plenty of potential, the question is not if he'll be revealed but when. I can honestly see him going either way, unlockability-wise, but I don't think he'll show up at E3. Would probably place fourth on a Japanese poll, behind Mewtwo, Roy, and Mega Man.

6.Waluigi [Super Mario] 407

Damn 4chan. Well, he's popular, but that's about it. I mean he has potential as well, but so do all the serious Mario newcomers. I wouldn't be upset if he was added, but I do think there are better choices. If he was added, it would be pretty much due to his odd amount of popularity, which he also has (maybe not to this extent) in Japan. I wouldn't be surprised if the characters below him overtook him, as long as the poll stays away from Waluigi hotspots. Don't think he'll be at E3, don't think he'll be a starter. His popularity, even though it's strong, will waver if another Mario character is revealed (plus then he probably won't get in).

7.Isaac [Golden Sun] 390

I'm honestly very very surprised and delighted that Isaac has managed to maintain the amount of popularity he still has. I mean, the last game in his series that really left a noticeable impact was ten years ago, and he wasn't even the sole protagonist of it. I mean, he appeared in Brawl and DD since then, but really, his popularity is one of the longest lasting. I think Golden Sun is one of Nintendo's most notable franchises left (after Punch-Out), so I wouldn't be surprised if he was added, even with diminishing Japanese popularity, but at this point popularity, which he still manages to keep, would play a relatively large factor in his inclusion. I don't expect him to be at E3, but being a starter wouldn't be surprising. If Shulk is confirmed earlier than he is, I expect his popularity to take a hit.

8.Palutena [Kid Icarus] 353

She's made quite an impact for a supporting role in one game, but her popularity and accolades are pretty deserved. She's a great character with lots of potential, so her popularity is probably where is should be. The only thing I see keeping her from being added is Sakurai'w own humility, but I think she has enough in her favour that he will look past it. I'd say her E3 chances were really high, and she's probably one of the most likely starters. I don't see her popularity lowering. Maybe if we get another female revealed beforehand, but one, we probably won't, and two, it still wouldn't effect her chances.

9.Ghirahim [Legend Of Zelda] 339

I don't know why this guy has so much popularity. He's an interesting character, yeah, and he could definitely work in Smash, but he's still a flavour-of-the-month who's popularity will dissipate as soon as the next Zelda comes along. Needless to say, I think his chances are overrated, but the fact that he does have so much remaining popularity is a bit of a surprise. I'm guessing it came mostly from places other than Smashboards, who just see a cool new character and want them included.

10.Roy [Fire Emblem] 328

Yup. His popularity, especially in the west, may have derived from Smash, but the fact is he still has a lot of popularity. As a veteran, and a semi-clone, and the second most popular character in Japan, I think his chances are quite good, but if Sakurai goes down the recency route, that won't be too surprising either honestly. It's either him or Chrom. Or maybe a new character we don't know about, but I doubt it. Not much to say about him, he'll definitely be an unlockable if included, which means we probably won't know until towards the end if he's included. If Chrom is revealed, his popularity will take a nose dive.

11.Bowser Junior [Super Mario] 315

He may not be as popular as Waluigi, he may not be as iconic as Toad, but he's still a valid candidate with a good deal of popularity. If Sakurai dismisses Toad, and wants a character who actually plays a role in Mario games other than spin-offs, he'd probably be the choice to go with. He'd also work as a semi-clone, which could help his chances over the other Mario characters. Like the rest though, if another Mario character gets confirmed, his popularity will tank.

12.Krom [Fire Emblem] 304

The gap between him a Roy are becoming a bit more noticeable, but he wouldn't get in through popularity anyway. A decent character who definitely does have some popularity and some support, he'd probably only be adding if Sakurai goes to IS for suggestions. Right now he's experienced the heightened popularity that comes with Awakening, but it still doesn't match Roy's, so when the game moves out of the spotlight, he'll probably descend. Possible for a starter character, but if a semi-clone, unlikely.

13.Shulk [Xenoblade] 300

Really, considering Xenoblade isn't too well known in the west, Shulk's popularity is about right. It's higher in the east. Pretty likely for inclusion, though it's possible Sakurai doesn't think the series warrants it yet, especially if X turns out to be unrelated, but both of those situations are unlikely. Probably will get a popularity surge with more details about X, and is fairly likely to be a starter, though it really could go either way IMO.

14.Pac - Man [Namco] 259

This guy owes his popularity to Namco's involvement. Without him, he would hardly get brought up. That said, his chances are pretty good, I'd say he's the most likely Namco character, and while his popularity for Smash is due to Namco, his popularity in general is pretty deserved. His popularity probably won't change unless Sakurai makes a negative statment about a Namco character, or another Namco character does in fact get in, in which case, he'll probably slip back to close to where he originally was, though there will be some people who think more than one Namco character is a possibility. If he's included, pretty likely to be at E3. Sakurai could go with Mega Man, but one will be saved for later, and honestly I think it'd be the blue bomber.

15.Krystal [StarFox] 256

Yeah. This isn't too surprising. It's actually more surprising her popularity (for what it is) has remained this high, considering SF has gotten no new original games, Wolf got in Brawl over her, and Palutena has (deservedly) stolen many of the "we need a female" crowd. Popularity was always her biggest asset, and it still is, but that's all she really has now. And it's honestly not enough to likely get her in. Of course, if we get a new SF game announced at E3, it will most likely skyrocket. I don't think it will effect her chances though tbh, unless Sakurai has known about it for a while, and Krystal plays a relatively big role. If she does end up being included, I honestly do think she'd be a starter, no matter what, but... she's lucky she still has that popularity to cling to.

16.Zoroark [Pokemon] 242

Well, he was probably always a little more expected than wanted, but he did have some popularity. If the 6th gen doesn't provide a clear Smash-feasible character pretty soon, but GF still wants a Pokemon newcomer (a true newcomers), he probably still has the best chance. Though now GF would probably be satisfied with re-adding Mewtwo, considering he's back in promotion and everything. I'd say Zoroark's chances were shaky at best. His popularity is ready to topple whenever we get a 6th gen character feasible for Smash, that GF promotes. If included, probably as an unlockable. Actually does have more popularity in Japan than here, but not by a crazy amount.

17.Geno [Square Enix] 237

haha. Well, yeah, he's popular. But that's it. He's not likely. And he's not that popular anymore either. I'd say his only shot would be if Sakurai based the inclusions this time on Brawl-era popularity, and Square was willing to play ball. I highly doubt it though, Mega Man and Namco will probably take priority. His popularity will continue to decline...

18.Takamaru [Murasame Castle] 207

Honestly, pretty surprising he can manage this much in general, considering he's had one obscure game and been referenced a couple times. People might think this is low, but for who the character is, it's pretty high. Of course his chances are great, and he's likely the "revival" character Sakurai was hinting at, and will probably be at E3. Nintendo Land helped a lot to get his name out.

19.Toad [Super Mario]205

Poor Toad. He really does deserve inclusion, but I don't think he'll get it. He has very little Smash demand in Japan, and only mediocre demand here. If Sakurai hasn't thought about him as a playable character before, he likely still won't, and this amount of popularity probably won't change his mind if he already has. Of course, he has become more prominent again as of late, so Sakurai's opinion might be different now, but personally I don't think it's too likely. Though he definitely deserves it. Another Mario character being confirmed will rob his popularity, and likely his chance.

And a few excuses caveats just to defend explain myself a bit. One, keep in mind this was before Awakening was even out globally. Two, DLC is not even a thought at this point, so it's base or nothing. Three, this was still before the speculator ethos regarded recency as important as we learned Smash did.

Oh and four, Waluigi used to be much more of a meme pick and 4chan favourite. Despite that, I too am surprised at how negative I was about him. I'm all for him now.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

I believe Sakurai has stated that the development cycle that began with Smash 4 officially ends at FP2. If we get more DLC then it’s presumably alongside the start of a brand new development cycle, whatever that entails.



The lack of gen 8 pokemon stuff is still notable.

Hmmm... your use of “development cycle” is curious. Have any other games had several “development cycles”?

also, for missing content, I’m still doubling down on Splatoon. Two Octo Expansion Spirits and they’re technically of the MC. no Iso Padre, CQ Cumber, Sanitized Octarians or The Phone... no Octo Expansion tunes either and using the Galeem aura to represent Sanitization would be perfect for their trailer... big brain time in this *****

 

[Shroob]

Hmmm... your use of “development cycle” is curious. Have any other games had several “development cycles”?

also, for missing content, I’m still doubling down on Splatoon. Two Octo Expansion Spirits and they’re technically of the MC. no Iso Padre, CQ Cumber, Sanitized Octarians or The Phone... big brain time in this *****

I mean, same could be said of Luigi's Mansion 3 tbh.

 

[Knight Dude]

I'm hoping Sakurai picks a completely random character that nobody would ever expect. I'd love to see Pharaoh Man from Mega Man 4 even though he has no logical reason to ever get chosen.

His theme didn't get remixed, and it's a certified Capcom Classic according to my fantastic taste. So yeah, Pharaoh Man being a weirdo pick would be kind of awesome.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

I mean, same could be said of Luigi's Mansion 3 tbh.

Tbf LM3 literally has nothing and will likely never have anything thanks to the Wahoominati. I’m betting that’s why we haven’t gotten ****

 

[Shroob]

Tbf LM3 literally has nothing and will likely never have anything thanks to the Wahoominati. I’m betting that’s why we haven’t gotten ****

How do they play any part in this when we have plenty of Mario spin off spirits in Smash? Hell, if the Wahoominati were an issue, then LM3 wouldn't even exist.

 

[Pillow]

Hmmm... your use of “development cycle” is curious. Have any other games had several “development cycles”?

also, for missing content, I’m still doubling down on Splatoon. Two Octo Expansion Spirits and they’re technically of the MC. no Iso Padre, CQ Cumber, Sanitized Octarians or The Phone... no Octo Expansion tunes either and using the Galeem aura to represent Sanitization would be perfect for their trailer... big brain time in this *****

To be honest, I’m not sure myself. All I know is it’s been stated that “development that started since smash 4 ends with fp2”. For all intents and purposes this could mean the end of smash ultimate development altogether, but since I like to believe well get more than that means they would start a new development cycle.

 

[Mamboo07]

Tbf LM3 literally has nothing and will likely never have anything thanks to the Wahoominati. I’m betting that’s why we haven’t gotten ****

I still don't even know what is the meaning of that?

 

[Shroob]

I still don't even know what is the meaning of that?

The board of people in charge for what is and isn't okay in the Mario world anymore, most commonly cited in the Origami King interviews with Tanabe as existing.

The term Wahoominati is just "Wahoo!", Mario's typical jump noise, and illuminati, obviously.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I mean, if you wanna get into the nitty gritty of it, I'd say that all clones are echoes


With the asterisk in that I don't really consider the Melee clones to be "clones" anymore. They're too different from their base to be considered as such, and at least to me, they fall under semi-clone. Pichu, Dr.Mario, Young Link and Roy all have enough differences to not really be called clones.


Lucina and Dark Pit though? They were clones in Smash 4, and they're echo fighters now. That's more or less what I'm saying.

Spoiler: It's a long enough post to justify this

]Except Dr. Mario had those differences in 4 and is still barely different in Ultimate outside of slight changes. So that's not true either.

Pichu is still a clone. The reality is, all clone actually meant was "taking a character and creating a newcomer by using their assets due to a lack of time to make someone very unique", and we don't know how accurate that is. Toon Link was pretty much treated identically to Young Link to the best of our knowledge. Do note I'm saying this because this is exactly how all the clones were created till an all new type of character came along as an Echo, which we know has been made at least once alongside a regular newcomer, confirming that they're not a product alone of "leftover time", something specific to all the regular clones(Brawl is the one case where some were made a bit later in development, but worth noting all the characters were planned from the start. This is also why I note they might not be called clones due to the circumstances behind them).

Young Link never changed designations. Semi-clone is not something that legitimately exists that we know of. It's a fanterm at best, to justify what we think is changed up enough. Not that it's a bad fanterm, but one has to look at what is official in the context of Smash itself. If Sakurai hasn't said they aren't clones anymore, then they might still be a clone anyway. It's easy to justify many as "they have almost nothing in common", which is a good point in itself, but there's many who aren't. They're still derivatives. Which, well... is kind of the point behind a clone generally in the fighting community.

Dark Pit and Lucina had far less differences and Dr. Mario(who was cited to be so similar to Ken as a reason to not think of clones and Echoes as that much different overall) overall didn't get a new rebranding due to that.

They just plain will always be different categories officially. Doesn't matter how arbitrary they are. But they weren't rebrandings. They were a new category that they could shove two characters into and make new characters even more easily than the clones in 64, Melee, and well... Toon Link in Brawl at best. And it's iffy if one should call him a clone(technically, yes, since he's pretty much what Young Link is to Link, and traditionally has the same moveset, referring to Young Link as the description, a specific clone. It's implied at least that Toon Link is meant to be a clone). Lucas most especially is a regular clone by how Smash defined their differences. We call him more different than he is cause we kind of lack information and tried to make our own rules on it. That's understandable. I did mention Brawl had no new clones, but that's because traditionally clones were added as bonus characters at the end of development due to extra time. Lucas, Wolf, and Toon Link are not those cases, so there's a question if they really fit that category in actual context of clone creation. Wolf is the only one who pretty much barely resembles their base, kind of like Ness in Smash 64(which is why I grouped them together. Wolf is less unique, but still). Sakurai doesn't seem to really have a definition for what clones are in many ways. He at best just labeled a few.

But just cause two clones with no actual differences became Echoes doesn't really mean it's a rebranding of the term. Isabelle is absolutely a clone, not an Echo. Is she best put under the fanterm Semi? Sure. Dr. Mario though? Nope. He's no Semi. He's extremely similar to Mario without a few new animations and different weight. He has some changed properties, but he's nowhere near what Ganondorf is now even(or hell, any of the three Links). But that doesn't mean those magically aren't "clones" either. They might be, they might not be. The fact Sakurai still doesn't use the term clone for ones beyond Dr. Mario doesn't help. It makes some confusion. He never actually defined what truly counts as a clone. Which is odd, but what you gonna do.

Is it silly he won't specify anything much at all? Yeah. This is why he says clones and echoes are fairly arbitrary(not that they aren't defined, but it doesn't mean that much). But I don't see at any point where Clone was dropped as an official thing. A rebranding means they have to make all clones under echoes only. Otherwise, it's not a rebranding. If it helps, there's literally only two who pretty much are still treated as clones at best(Dr. Mario due to him being called one when noting why he and Ken aren't so different overall, and Isabelle was hard described as exactly unique enough to not be an Echo, but clearly reusing Villager's moveset). There's a decent argument to be made that the rest of the clones beforehand aren't ones anymore, but those two? Well, no. They're clones in the end due to Sakurai's own statements. He's confirmed Clones and Echoes both exist, even if you want to remove Isabelle from the pool. Doesn't matter how arbitrary the difference is(and it it is very arbitrary).

Not much of a better way to say it, though. A rebranding means they're the same thing as before. As he calls Clones different things(not that it much matters) from Echoes, it means it's not a "replacement" of the term. It means it's a new thing. For the record, I do agree it would've been better if it was a rebranding, and Dr. Mario was said to not be a clone anymore. It'd be a lot better than what he gave us. But that's... factually not the case. I can only hope he defines Clones better and for that matter, explains his rules further. Does he actually think a semi-clone is a thing? What's the difference between a base and a derivative? Is it how similar they are? PP/Ness are perfect examples of a base, with Wolf a great example of a derivative that is too different to be a typical clone(...but is he actually not a typical clone? I dunno. Sakurai is vague on this).

That's probably why he never had a semi-clone term anyway. Since all those derivatives still use the same base to make them faster, which is why they still have similar moves. It's very likely he doesn't consider them less than a clone as before, despite it being kind of a strange thing to say.

So yeah, overall, there's zero evidence to suggest they're a rebranding at all. There's evidence due to the tons of content and context behind them that they're simply a new type of character creation that does its own thing.

-----------------

LM3 is odd too. Considering we have many times for spirit events but rarely get them that much, it's possible some were simply out-prioritized. Whether it's cause LM3 has a little content in Smash or they had other ideas first. The Origami King had nothing overall, and got some Sprits. Don't get me wrong, I don't feel that Luigi having the latest Poltergust is an actual decent representation of LM3, but the fact it's there means they don't have to overall promote it. That's why I can see it being lower priority than series with zero content. Isn't Age of Calamity the only HW content too? I'm pretty sure besides character packs, we've had very few spirits representing games not already in Smash by that time. Not franchises, but specific games. It's a good question, too. It may help determine speculation of new spirit events. Or it could mean nothing at all, like most of our thoughts. XD

 

[Mamboo07]

The board of people in charge for what is and isn't okay in the Mario world anymore, most commonly cited in the Origami King interviews with Tanabe as existing.

The term Wahoominati is just "Wahoo!", Mario's typical jump noise, and illuminari, obviously.

Oh yeah, for example new Paper Mario games can't have partners?

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Oh yeah, for example new Paper Mario games can't have partners?

Pretty much

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I mean, partners do "exist", kind of. But they're very limited in making actual unique ones.

The lack of partner characters in terms of battles like the old games isn't related to that Mario Quality Team. That's due to a design choice. TOK had partners who could fight in battle, they just never were in your control nor worked the same way.

They are very limited in how the partners work, but just proved they can still be used. Considering the exact battle system, it's designed quite clearly so only Mario can take damage, so a regular partner requires a battle system difference. One they weren't interested in, it seems. I can imagine at most it'd be akin to Paper Mario 1, where they're knocked out for a turn or two. But they were also hard controllable, unlike here. Different approach. Not one I liked. I like my controllable partners. But that's also due to bad A.I. almost all the time, so...

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Tbf LM3 literally has nothing and will likely never have anything thanks to the Wahoominati. I’m betting that’s why we haven’t gotten ****

Luigi’s Mansion 3 has several unique portrait ghost bosses that could easily fill a spirit board though.

 

[Knight Dude]

That's a blatant ****ing lie.

Co-signed, by the guy who got SC2 cause Heihachi was in it and my whole family plays Tekken.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Co-signed, by the guy who got SC2 cause Heihachi was in it and my whole family plays Tekken.

Hilariously he's the exact reason I didn't like the PS2 version. But I want my range damnit. I playe Soul back before II, so I used them all and could best work with those with range. Heihachi is literally difficult to work with due to barely any range. Whether it's projectiles or a rush move, etc. It's why I migrate to Nightmare often~ That said, totally awesome choice, of course. Just didn't mesh well with me. And I did use him, and realized I couldn't work with him. Though I am curious how accurate he is to his Tekken self overall. I think there's a new modern Tekken game that doesn't have the limb system or a smaller moveset style or something? Maybe that alone could let me understand him better in SC.

...That said, I'm going to try and find it cause it's actually unique enough to justify it. That, and more fun ways to try a game again. I nearly completed the Xbox one by now. I had the GCN one done ages ago. Though to be fair, what got me coming back to 3 and 4 was customization. It's the sole reason I enjoy Wrestling games too. Well, and silly codes sometimes(one of the GCN ones gave me options via codes to make a very particular joke design for a character. They aren't a joke character, either, but it's an equivalent to a mod for fun).

 

[Swamp Sensei]

PLATINUM7 had me curious to go back and see what, if any, conversations about Pac-Man I was involved in prior to his inclusion. I ended up finding this, which was a funny little snapshot of things a few months before the Smash 4 reveal.

It's in response to one of Shortie's polls. The results are from early 2013. Interesting to see what I was very right about... and very wrong about.

Spoiler

I'll give my thoughts I guess.

1.Megaman [Capcom] 713

Him being in first isn't too surprising. Pretty much every demographic and place online wants Mega Man, except for the Nintendo purists. What is surprising is how far ahead he is. I'm guessing he's the only new 3rd party character Sakurai will go to the effort of approaching a company for, not counting the Namco characters, as they're in a bit of a different situation. Or, if not the only, he'd be the first one Sakurai attempts to add. If he isn't unveiled at E3, I don't imagine his popularity will go anywhere, unless Sakurai makes some negative statement regarding his chances.

2.Mewtwo [Pokemon] 622

Again, not too surprising. All this Mewtwo talk and promotion will probably push him higher in the coming weeks, but still not above Mega Man. Probably the most likely character to be added (or technically re-added). Not much to say about him that hasn't already been said. Expecting him to place just as highly post-E3.

3.Ridley [ Metroid] 501

Another not surprising place. Now that Ridley is the most wanted true Nintendo newcomer in the west, and Sakurai has been made aware of the want for a playable Ridley, and given a very non-committal answer like normal, but not a negative answer, I'm definitely expecting him. I'm also guessing he'll be revealed at E3, but if he's not, there will probably be people questioning if he is to appear playable at all. His overall popularity will be interesting once we can compare a western poll to an eastern poll.

4.Little Mac [Punch Out] 489

Considering how iconic and popular Punch-Out is in the west, this isn't too surprising. What is surprising is, although a lot exists, we rarely hear very vocal Mac support. I'm pretty confident he'll be added, he's pretty much the biggest unrepresented IP left, that Sakurai hasn't dismissed. Some people say he won't get in because he's too bland... but that's nonsense.

I am surprised he's above K. Rool though. He definitely wouldn't be on a Japanese poll. In fact, he'd be pretty close to the bottom. Definite localized popularity, but enough that Sakurai will still take notice.

5.King K. Rool [Donkey Kong] 465

Makes sense, even if he hasn't had a very large role for a long time. Unless Sakurai is dead set on returning to adding Dixie, which I doubt, I'd say this guy has one of the best chances. Universal popularity, importance in a major series, plenty of potential, the question is not if he'll be revealed but when. I can honestly see him going either way, unlockability-wise, but I don't think he'll show up at E3. Would probably place fourth on a Japanese poll, behind Mewtwo, Roy, and Mega Man.

6.Waluigi [Super Mario] 407

Damn 4chan. Well, he's popular, but that's about it. I mean he has potential as well, but so do all the serious Mario newcomers. I wouldn't be upset if he was added, but I do think there are better choices. If he was added, it would be pretty much due to his odd amount of popularity, which he also has (maybe not to this extent) in Japan. I wouldn't be surprised if the characters below him overtook him, as long as the poll stays away from Waluigi hotspots. Don't think he'll be at E3, don't think he'll be a starter. His popularity, even though it's strong, will waver if another Mario character is revealed (plus then he probably won't get in).

7.Isaac [Golden Sun] 390

I'm honestly very very surprised and delighted that Isaac has managed to maintain the amount of popularity he still has. I mean, the last game in his series that really left a noticeable impact was ten years ago, and he wasn't even the sole protagonist of it. I mean, he appeared in Brawl and DD since then, but really, his popularity is one of the longest lasting. I think Golden Sun is one of Nintendo's most notable franchises left (after Punch-Out), so I wouldn't be surprised if he was added, even with diminishing Japanese popularity, but at this point popularity, which he still manages to keep, would play a relatively large factor in his inclusion. I don't expect him to be at E3, but being a starter wouldn't be surprising. If Shulk is confirmed earlier than he is, I expect his popularity to take a hit.

8.Palutena [Kid Icarus] 353

She's made quite an impact for a supporting role in one game, but her popularity and accolades are pretty deserved. She's a great character with lots of potential, so her popularity is probably where is should be. The only thing I see keeping her from being added is Sakurai'w own humility, but I think she has enough in her favour that he will look past it. I'd say her E3 chances were really high, and she's probably one of the most likely starters. I don't see her popularity lowering. Maybe if we get another female revealed beforehand, but one, we probably won't, and two, it still wouldn't effect her chances.

9.Ghirahim [Legend Of Zelda] 339

I don't know why this guy has so much popularity. He's an interesting character, yeah, and he could definitely work in Smash, but he's still a flavour-of-the-month who's popularity will dissipate as soon as the next Zelda comes along. Needless to say, I think his chances are overrated, but the fact that he does have so much remaining popularity is a bit of a surprise. I'm guessing it came mostly from places other than Smashboards, who just see a cool new character and want them included.

10.Roy [Fire Emblem] 328

Yup. His popularity, especially in the west, may have derived from Smash, but the fact is he still has a lot of popularity. As a veteran, and a semi-clone, and the second most popular character in Japan, I think his chances are quite good, but if Sakurai goes down the recency route, that won't be too surprising either honestly. It's either him or Chrom. Or maybe a new character we don't know about, but I doubt it. Not much to say about him, he'll definitely be an unlockable if included, which means we probably won't know until towards the end if he's included. If Chrom is revealed, his popularity will take a nose dive.

11.Bowser Junior [Super Mario] 315

He may not be as popular as Waluigi, he may not be as iconic as Toad, but he's still a valid candidate with a good deal of popularity. If Sakurai dismisses Toad, and wants a character who actually plays a role in Mario games other than spin-offs, he'd probably be the choice to go with. He'd also work as a semi-clone, which could help his chances over the other Mario characters. Like the rest though, if another Mario character gets confirmed, his popularity will tank.

12.Krom [Fire Emblem] 304

The gap between him a Roy are becoming a bit more noticeable, but he wouldn't get in through popularity anyway. A decent character who definitely does have some popularity and some support, he'd probably only be adding if Sakurai goes to IS for suggestions. Right now he's experienced the heightened popularity that comes with Awakening, but it still doesn't match Roy's, so when the game moves out of the spotlight, he'll probably descend. Possible for a starter character, but if a semi-clone, unlikely.

13.Shulk [Xenoblade] 300

Really, considering Xenoblade isn't too well known in the west, Shulk's popularity is about right. It's higher in the east. Pretty likely for inclusion, though it's possible Sakurai doesn't think the series warrants it yet, especially if X turns out to be unrelated, but both of those situations are unlikely. Probably will get a popularity surge with more details about X, and is fairly likely to be a starter, though it really could go either way IMO.

14.Pac - Man [Namco] 259

This guy owes his popularity to Namco's involvement. Without him, he would hardly get brought up. That said, his chances are pretty good, I'd say he's the most likely Namco character, and while his popularity for Smash is due to Namco, his popularity in general is pretty deserved. His popularity probably won't change unless Sakurai makes a negative statment about a Namco character, or another Namco character does in fact get in, in which case, he'll probably slip back to close to where he originally was, though there will be some people who think more than one Namco character is a possibility. If he's included, pretty likely to be at E3. Sakurai could go with Mega Man, but one will be saved for later, and honestly I think it'd be the blue bomber.

15.Krystal [StarFox] 256

Yeah. This isn't too surprising. It's actually more surprising her popularity (for what it is) has remained this high, considering SF has gotten no new original games, Wolf got in Brawl over her, and Palutena has (deservedly) stolen many of the "we need a female" crowd. Popularity was always her biggest asset, and it still is, but that's all she really has now. And it's honestly not enough to likely get her in. Of course, if we get a new SF game announced at E3, it will most likely skyrocket. I don't think it will effect her chances though tbh, unless Sakurai has known about it for a while, and Krystal plays a relatively big role. If she does end up being included, I honestly do think she'd be a starter, no matter what, but... she's lucky she still has that popularity to cling to.

16.Zoroark [Pokemon] 242

Well, he was probably always a little more expected than wanted, but he did have some popularity. If the 6th gen doesn't provide a clear Smash-feasible character pretty soon, but GF still wants a Pokemon newcomer (a true newcomers), he probably still has the best chance. Though now GF would probably be satisfied with re-adding Mewtwo, considering he's back in promotion and everything. I'd say Zoroark's chances were shaky at best. His popularity is ready to topple whenever we get a 6th gen character feasible for Smash, that GF promotes. If included, probably as an unlockable. Actually does have more popularity in Japan than here, but not by a crazy amount.

17.Geno [Square Enix] 237

haha. Well, yeah, he's popular. But that's it. He's not likely. And he's not that popular anymore either. I'd say his only shot would be if Sakurai based the inclusions this time on Brawl-era popularity, and Square was willing to play ball. I highly doubt it though, Mega Man and Namco will probably take priority. His popularity will continue to decline...

18.Takamaru [Murasame Castle] 207

Honestly, pretty surprising he can manage this much in general, considering he's had one obscure game and been referenced a couple times. People might think this is low, but for who the character is, it's pretty high. Of course his chances are great, and he's likely the "revival" character Sakurai was hinting at, and will probably be at E3. Nintendo Land helped a lot to get his name out.

19.Toad [Super Mario]205

Poor Toad. He really does deserve inclusion, but I don't think he'll get it. He has very little Smash demand in Japan, and only mediocre demand here. If Sakurai hasn't thought about him as a playable character before, he likely still won't, and this amount of popularity probably won't change his mind if he already has. Of course, he has become more prominent again as of late, so Sakurai's opinion might be different now, but personally I don't think it's too likely. Though he definitely deserves it. Another Mario character being confirmed will rob his popularity, and likely his chance.

And a few excuses caveats just to defend explain myself a bit. One, keep in mind this was before Awakening was even out globally. Two, DLC is not even a thought at this point, so it's base or nothing. Three, this was still before the speculator ethos regarded recency as important as we learned Smash did.

Oh and four, Waluigi used to be much more of a meme pick and 4chan favourite. Despite that, I too am surprised at how negative I was about him. I'm all for him now.

Ah yes, I remember this.

It's real interesting that of the top 19 characters...

11 became playable ()
Of those left, 6 are assists (Waluigi, Isaac, Ghirahim, Krystal, Zoroark, Takamaru)
And the last 2 became Mii Costumes (Geno, Toad)

They really do pay attention to fan wants and desires.

 

[Diddy Kong]

So far the 2nd Fighters Pass filled most of the most glaring holes from the base game's content:

• Lack of ARMS music
• 2 FFVII tracks
• only

The last 2 slots are gonna be interesting.

And outside of Wario, I don't think there's any first-party IP that is severely lacking in representation now.

Zelda is kind of lacking. There hasn't been a newcomer since Brawl with Toon Link. Dixie Kong is also still missing . Sonic could use a character, but am not a fan

 

[Knight Dude]

Catching up on the topics, I doubt Pass 3's happening, but I won't say its impossible since a lot of people doubted Season 2 happening, myself included. But you know what they say, follow the money. I'm still waiting to get the DLC until all the characters are added. I can only imagine eve for a game like Smash, a couple of other people do the same.

If I take out my bias and had to end the pass on "the hypest" choices. Any two of Crash, Sora, Dante, Hayabusa or Master Chief would make a ton of people happy. Lara and Scorpion/Sub-Zero are iconic, but they aren't typically rooted for by people online. But I think they are famous enough to warrant at least a mention. Maybe Chun-Li, Tails/Eggman and MMX/Zero too if we're talking double dipping on a series. 2B's popular, but I dunno where'd most would put her on the pecking order.

Being completely biased, a 2nd Mega Man and Jin Kazama. Both are also popular series, but Master Chief is Master Chief.

I’m not fatigued but I’m rarely one to get super involved in the in depth speculation anymore. I do it for Hayabusa to spread my propaganda but that’s about it. I’ve been in for the ride since Banjo.

I honestly just watch the goings on in here, comment on what I find interesting, and usually just make sure you guys are abiding by the rules so fatigue really isn’t much of a problem for me. Smash speculation scientists, yeah I can imagine you guys are sick of trying to figure out who’s next and consistently being wrong because Nintendo and Sakurai are about as readable as a blank book thats ink only shows up in pure darkness.

For the most part, I'm just here to talk about cool characters I like or learn about ones I don't know. That's why I'm not too worried one way or the other. I got Mega Man and Ridley so that's why most things after that are icing on the cake. With Terry being the personal standout. The guessing can be fun, as long as you don't take it too seriously.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

"Glaring holes" doesn't work because its so dang subjective. What if I said Fire Emblem had glaring holes because certain arcs had no characters? Or Pokemon had glaring holes because Gen 3 and Gen 5 had no Pokemon?

It just doesn't work.

Pretty much the only universally agreed upon thing was that Final Fantasy should have more. You're gonna be hard pressed to find another franchise who had it as bad as Final Fantasy.

 

[Shroob]

"Glaring holes" doesn't work because its so dang subjective. What if I said Fire Emblem had glaring holes because certain arcs had no characters? Or Pokemon had glaring holes because Gen 3 and Gen 5 had no Pokemon?

It just doesn't work.

Pretty much the only universally agreed upon thing was that Final Fantasy should have more. You're gonna be hard pressed to find another franchise who had it as bad as them.

The fact that "TWO SONGS!" became a meme, and pretty much we all understood what it meant without having to think... kinda speaks volumes to that lol.

....so glad that meme's dead.

 

[Metal Shop X]

"Glaring holes" doesn't work because its so dang subjective. What if I said Fire Emblem had glaring holes because certain arcs had no characters? Or Pokemon had glaring holes because Gen 3 and Gen 5 had no Pokemon?

It just doesn't work.

Pretty much the only universally agreed upon thing was that Final Fantasy should have more. You're gonna be hard pressed to find another franchise who had it as bad as Final Fantasy.

It's really ironic that FF redemption content wise was thanks to Sephiroth inclusion.

You can't make that stuff up.

 

[Pillow]

The fact that "TWO SONGS!" became a meme, and pretty much we all understood what it meant without having to think... kinda speaks volumes to that lol.

....so glad that meme's dead.

It’s still a shame that there are 15 official ff games, and tons of spin-offs, and the only content in Smash is from FF7.

 

[Shroob]

It’s still a shame that there are 15 official ff games, and tons of spin-offs, and the only content in Smash is from FF7.

Same time though, it'd be weird to have two separate FF "franchises" in Smash, since, afaik, the FF has always been FF7 branded in Smash.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

"Glaring holes" doesn't work because its so dang subjective. What if I said Fire Emblem had glaring holes because certain arcs had no characters? Or Pokemon had glaring holes because Gen 3 and Gen 5 had no Pokemon?

It just doesn't work.

Pretty much the only universally agreed upon thing was that Final Fantasy should have more. You're gonna be hard pressed to find another franchise who had it as bad as Final Fantasy.

Even after that got patched up with Sephiroth, there's now a divide between people who are happy with 7's representation not being pisspoor and people who were upset we got a second 7 character. Ironically enough by closing the gap, we got a larger one

 

[Knight Dude]

So far the 2nd Fighters Pass filled most of the most glaring holes from the base game's content:

• Lack of ARMS music
• 2 FFVII tracks
• only

The last 2 slots are gonna be interesting.

And outside of Wario, I don't think there's any first-party IP that is severely lacking in representation now.

Of course, this is all extremely subjective.

But Wario's lack of content from his platforming series is something I agree with. But with the overall content in the game it's hard to be too miffed.
One could argue Pokemon should have a bit of each gen be playable, given how huge of a series it is. Not that I agree, but hey, there's that.
Zelda, while it's got 6 characters half are Link, with variations of his original kit, and another 2 are Zelda and Ninja Zelda. Granted I'm more worried about the moves being standout than different incarnations or not.

For third parties, Sonic and Mega Man having a 2nd character would be nice. But Sonic's got 2 stages and Mega Man's got quite a bit of music. So its not the end of the world.

Same time though, it'd be weird to have two separate FF "franchises" in Smash, since, afaik, the FF has always been FF7 branded in Smash.

Would it be that strange, considering Yoshi might as well just be yet another Mario addition?

I think getting any type of extra FF content is cool, even if I'm not a huge fan of the series. Though for someone who's an FF Head, I can understand the disappointment that the most dapped up game gets dapped up yet again.

But I think Sephiroth is neat, I just wish he wasn't so damn annoying to fight.

 

[Evil Trapezium]

So far the 2nd Fighters Pass filled most of the most glaring holes from the base game's content:

• Lack of ARMS music
• 2 FFVII tracks
• only

The last 2 slots are gonna be interesting.

And outside of Wario, I don't think there's any first-party IP that is severely lacking in representation now.

If that's the case then Monster Hunter rise dude is guaranteed to make it in this pass.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Well, Yoshi actually had its own label cause of Yoshi's Story at the time. It's why it gets so little content, since almost everything can be labeled Super Mario. Only a tiny few trophies at first, and some Stickers/Spirits got the honor of it. It's the most arbitrary symbol in Smash, but they kind of threw themselves into a corner since Smash 64. He could've had his own theme song and stages and still be labeled Super Mario. DKC and WarioWare doesn't have this issue either. They're separated enough.

FFVII is the actual thing in Smash and treated like that. So fairly different from the Yoshi stuff. But yeah, if we were to get something outside of FFVII, they'd likely rebrand it to say FF instead of VII(as even the logo in the Smash games just have FF) or further separate them to make it clear they are not the same franchise. That's if we even have a chance for that. At the very least, the Songs are listed as FF, so you can easily justify any non-FFVII content there wih no issues? This doesn't work for characters, but could for stages. So it's not necessarily hard to made the franchise more spread out. Also, this is the first game to give logos on the Smash site to clarify a specific franchise, but it also specifically points to unique games to promote the franchise in a special way. So they just further went for "yes, each franchise is very different from others... no matter how related they are" in the end.

Imagine if Yoshi never was a Yoshi character but a Super Mario one. That'd be crazy different. Would it mean less stages? More complaints about "too much Mario"(which doesn't happen much, but PP and Dr. Mario have easily gotten this reaction).

 

[True Blue Warrior]

It's like Super Smash Bros. is actually a.......a Nintendo game! Them ********! Ignoring our most wanted picks like Goku from Dragon Ball FighterZ or Jonesy from Fortnite in favor of that fat plumber Mario and fairy boy Zelda!

Some people got spoiled by third-party characters. Nothing surprising there.