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Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

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Technomage

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Anyway, why are we talking about getting caravters back for the next game already, the game just ended
We're getting bored, and haven't yet gotten disinterested enough in Smash speculation to take a hiatus.

Buddy, I hate to tell you this, but no matter how many new fighters we get next game, we're always gonna be getting at least one new Pokemon and Fire Emblem rep lol
Well, as long as it's not a third starter in a row (even with my interest in Pokemon revitalized) or a fourth Fire Emblem lord in a row (and maybe cut one or maybe even three of the FE protags), that'd be fine with me (well, especially the Pokemon part, since it isn't being milked as much as FE).
 
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chocolatejr9

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I refuse to believe Pepsiman wasn’t a Top 5 Ballot pick. Try and find me one person who hasn’t had a Pepsi product before. It’s THAT popular!

I actually cannot stomach the idea that folks wanted some guy in a red zip-up onesie (and also doesn’t know the purpose of a belt, smh) over this dude. Just LOOK AT HIM!View attachment 333598
I mean, I can see his mouth throwing people off...
 

Technomage

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I really missed seeing all the characters as Trophies. They have to bring that back instead of Spirits.
There's actually a good reason they scrapped trophies: Creating new 3D models takes a lot of time and resources, including for something that's only for show. With that said, I do think they should have had spirits have descriptions like trophies did (that, and a zoom function, since seeing some of the details can be hard to do without squinting and putting my face close to the screen; then again, it's probably because I play the Switch without a TV).
 

Opossum

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Oh hey, Sugiyama died.
Took him long enough lol. May he forever burn in whatever circle of hell is reserved for war crime deniers and those who are vehemently anti-LGBT+. May a choir of MIDI demons guide him to eternal torment.
:)

Anyway, since there's some talk going on about the next game, however many years from now that may be, I definitely don't think we're getting an Ultimate Deluxe. They'd need to renegotiate all the licensing and payments and that's not something that's as easy as a lot of people seem to believe it is. And anything dealing with "but they may have added a clause in the contracts" is...kind of entirely baseless. Even more than baseless, honestly, as we, if anything, have more things pointing against that notion. Sakurai saying this is a once in a lifetime thing, as well as the sense of finality he and Nintendo gave off leading up to the last presentation, contradict the idea of an Ultimate Deluxe Clause entirely.


So honestly, I don't even expect the next Smash game to have a base roster of over, like, sixty characters. And that's including at least like ten newcomers. The workload put into Ultimate is something I don't think they'd do again. It's the same incredibly painstaking amount of work without even having the payoff of "Everyone is Here," so why even go through with it?

That's just my view though. Enjoy what we have in Ultimate now, because hoo boy, as we get closer to whenever the next game is, the discussion of inevitable cuts is going to get rough.
 

FreeFox

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For next smash, I wonder who would be on the table. I even wonder which new companies will eventually join. Also, I wonder if as always Sakurai is going to start development for a new game and get a headstart (he has said he aint going to rest).

A bit late, but real talk?
I'd be down for Goku at this point. Like, **** it. Nothing is real anymore anyway.
 

Technomage

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For next smash, I wonder who would be on the table. I even wonder which new companies will eventually join. Also, I wonder if as always Sakurai is going to start development for a new game and get a headstart (he has said he aint going to rest).
Yeah, for some reason I'd like for Sakurai to not work on the next Smash game immediately after Ultimate or after completing one non-Smash game.
 

Rie Sonomura

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Oh right

I remembered ArcSys isn’t the only new company with content that excludes a playable character - Marvelous too (DXM and Sukuna spirit events, the NMH Mii and spirit event if you count Grasshopper Manufacture as part of them)

7NATOR 7NATOR do you think we could see a Marvelous character in a future Smash too? Like another early negotiation type deal?
 

FreeFox

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Oh right

I remembered ArcSys isn’t the only new company with content that excludes a playable character - Marvelous too (DXM and Sukuna spirit events, the NMH Mii and spirit event if you count Grasshopper Manufacture as part of them)

7NATOR 7NATOR do you think we could see a Marvelous character in a future Smash too? Like another early negotiation type deal?
There is also Koei Tecmo and the Fatal frame assist.
 

Evil Trapezium

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I just had a thought

an Everyone is Here mural style drawing but it's us and out pfps


I kinda wanna draw that now
Someone on the Banjo & Kazooie thread did that once where they drew all of the supporters reacting to the Banjo & Kazooie render. It was a really cool way of celebrating and it'd be awesome to see that again.
 

TeenGirlSquad

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Oh right

I remembered ArcSys isn’t the only new company with content that excludes a playable character - Marvelous too (DXM and Sukuna spirit events, the NMH Mii and spirit event if you count Grasshopper Manufacture as part of them)

7NATOR 7NATOR do you think we could see a Marvelous character in a future Smash too? Like another early negotiation type deal?
Marvelous owns the NMH trademark and certainly owns the character, in the same sense that Bayonetta is technically a Sega character. So if there's a Marvelous character, it will almost definitely be Travis.
 

Megadoomer

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Now that Smash Ultimate's roster is complete, I'd love to see Everyone Is Here sold as a poster. I've got a poster for a version of Smash Ultimate's box art (complete with all of the third party characters who were in the base game), but having a poster with the complete roster, including characters like Banjo-Kazooie and Sora who I didn't even think would be possible, would be amazing.
 

Professor Pumpkaboo

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Oh hey, Sugiyama died.
As much of a bad person he is, his music did go down in history. Im not gonna go about the way others are saying "about time" because i aint about that life. Lets just hope whoever takes over with music does a good job
 

WaxPython

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Great final choice, reinverogated my interest in the game. The dlc choices made me depressed for ages lol
 

Evil Trapezium

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This is the collab that was done on the Banjo & Kazooie social thread when they were revealed. It was fantastic!

IT IS DONE.

Well, as done as I think it can be! Thank you to everyone who showed interest in my Collab last month, I'm sorry for being so late (Life happens what can I say!) and I apologize if I missed you in the collab, with so many replies in a huge pool of hype I couldn't swim fast enough so to speak...

But anyway! even if you aren't present in the collab via an avatar, just remember that you were apart of this crazy Roller Coaster that was Banjo-Kazooie for Smash! And I'm glad I could of shared this moment with all of you! I hope this moment of Glory will forever be immortalized in this Piece of Bad Art!

Thanks again and once Autumn comes rolling in, It'll be time to train! GUH-HUH!

View attachment 231528
 

SKX31

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I'm starting to hear that Inkling is a boring choice now or that Isabelle isn't a big deal. It boggles mind mind. Let alone reactions to more niche characters like Chrom, Dark Samus, Min Min and Pyra/Mythra.

I like that Smash is expanding its horizons, but I don't like the fandom's change in personality.
To be fair, people were, ahem, dogging, on Isabelle back then too. The September Direct being delayed + a pretty low key reveal trailer, while fitting for her, didn't really excite a lot of people.



I think Isabelle's great and 100% deserves her spot, but Isabelle indifference isn't new.
Really, really late on this, but still:

I really feel that the post-release reception played a major part with the indifference. She did have the unfortunate position of being based off :ultvillager: (a character whose Smash 4 reception wasn't amazing to begin with AFAIK) and leaning further into a playstyle that's not the most popular.

Also worth noting is that :ultisabelle: like Villager is kinda overshadowed on many fronts. Your average Joe / Jane might try those two out*, but there's quite a few characters in their vein that may be easier to pick up and give more "reward" so to speak. Isabelle also has some moves that aren't exactly straightforward like Jab and Lloid Trap. Even within their general archetype one could argue that :ulttoonlink: and :ultzelda: are easier to get a grip of. They have a casual playerbase, but I dunno if it's large. In more serious business contexts the two - particularily Isabelle - are mostly harmed by the universal changes promoting faster gameplay and other zoners like :ultpacman: got buffed more than they did. That's not to say she's ineffective (there's a case to be made that she might be underrated because she's incredibly rare), but Isabelle in particular has not seen much screen time or success here. She's more well-rounded than Villager, but Villager's greater endurance, her really short Smash attacks and the counterplay to her Specials have harmed her perception. Then again, she's gotten a number of impactful buffs, so I think she's not many buffs away from potentially shedding that indifference.

*I'm saying this with a small asterisk attached since I'm not entirely sure how well-recieved either Villager in 4 or Isabelle in Ultimate were with more casual Smash players. It's entirely possible that those who really like AC are Villager / Isabelle's main casual fanbase in Smash, just as I kinda assume they form their competitive core.

Speaking of, I'm surprised at the lack of antagonists in the Spirit Board. You can see some of them in certain configurations of the stage (I saw Ansem in Riku's, Xehanort in Aqua and Terra's, Vanitas in Aqua and Ven's and Xemnas in Roxas and Xion's), but they don't have Spirits.
That kinda surprised me too. Might just be that they weren't prioritized as Spirits a la DQ's /3H's / ARMS' respecive antagonists: their appearances on the Dive to the Heart segments do show that they're fair game too.

Anyway, since there's some talk going on about the next game, however many years from now that may be, I definitely don't think we're getting an Ultimate Deluxe. They'd need to renegotiate all the licensing and payments and that's not something that's as easy as a lot of people seem to believe it is. And anything dealing with "but they may have added a clause in the contracts" is...kind of entirely baseless. Even more than baseless, honestly, as we, if anything, have more things pointing against that notion. Sakurai saying this is a once in a lifetime thing, as well as the sense of finality he and Nintendo gave off leading up to the last presentation, contradict the idea of an Ultimate Deluxe Clause entirely.


So honestly, I don't even expect the next Smash game to have a base roster of over, like, sixty characters. And that's including at least like ten newcomers. The workload put into Ultimate is something I don't think they'd do again. It's the same incredibly painstaking amount of work without even having the payoff of "Everyone is Here," so why even go through with it?

That's just my view though. Enjoy what we have in Ultimate now, because hoo boy, as we get closer to whenever the next game is, the discussion of inevitable cuts is going to get rough.
It is absolutely going to be rough whenever Smash 6 comes around - while I personally believe they can get up to 60 characters (assuming Smash 6's development staff is relatively large) that'd still imply 15-20 characters cut. Which would still get ugly pretty fast.

Still though, they have ways to mitigate those issues. Not just character inclusions, mechanics changes and what not. They can reintroduce older modes and incorporate those online (Break the Targets, Board the Platforms, Smash Run). They can work in a "tag-in" mechanic if they wanted to and either choose to incorporate that into say Squad Strike or as its own mode. New modes could help keep interest in future entries too.

And yeah, lets enjoy what we have in Ultimate currently.

Just saw the music tracks, a bit disheartening there's no vocal tracks or anything from kingdom hearts 2, any reason for that?
Likely the same reason there's no vocal Bayonetta tracks (IIRC) etc.

Licensing costs and the limited DLC budget.
 
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Technomage

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Just saw the music tracks, a bit disheartening there's no vocal tracks or anything from kingdom hearts 2, any reason for that?
Well, copyright has been quite a ***** when dealing with Square; though we did get at least one SE song with lyrics.
 

WeirdChillFever

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RIP Sugiyama, Rip and Tear Doom Slayer! You can make the two statements as related as you’d like.

Speaking of stingy composers, I do really wish Sora came with Simple and Clean somehow. It’s pretty iconic and imo a bigger miss than not having Disney for the reason that not having explicitly Disney content is understandable
 

WaxPython

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The vocal tracks are performed by Utada Hikaru, a big name Japanese singer. There’s probably rights issues involved there
That's a shame, but Disney is a big company too and Nintendo pulled it off, must be more of a budget concern

On a more sombre note RIP Sugiyama, a legend and inspiration for many in the industry
 
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DarthEnderX

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I mean, Trophies eat up so much more resources which is one of the reasons they went for Spirits. That being said, I do wish Spirits got descriptions like the Trophies did, it's a shame that got lost
Yeah, I much prefer getting 1500+ Spirits to getting 500+ Trophies.

Hot take: I wouldn't really mind having less newcomers in the base game if it meant getting everyone back again.
I'd legit be fine if base game only added the requisite Pokemon rep, a Mii Mage and a bunch of Echoes if it meant getting everyone back again.
 

drag0nscythe

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As much of a bad person he is, his music did go down in history. Im not gonna go about the way others are saying "about time" because i aint about that life. Lets just hope whoever takes over with music does a good job
Way I see it, it we look at all culture and works of art, many of the most famous pieces will have come from unsavory places. Even da vinci's family had slaves. We do at some point have to seperate the art from the artist because we would have nothing historical left. LBGTQ has only really been accepted culturally in western parts of the world for about 20-30 years (shorter maybe) It is not unreasonable to beleive anyone from before 1900 were in some form very politically incorrect in different aspects. World was very different when he was a kid and many people are not able to change. we are seeing that in the USA right now with the boomers. pretty sure everyone that is young in this thread will also end up that way. it is what happens when the brain starts dying from age.
 

3BitSaurus

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Really, really late on this, but still:

I really feel that the post-release reception played a major part with the indifference. She did have the unfortunate position of being based off :ultvillager: (a character whose Smash 4 reception wasn't amazing to begin with AFAIK) and leaning further into a playstyle that's not the most popular.

Also worth noting is that :ultisabelle: like Villager is kinda overshadowed on many fronts. Your average Joe / Jane might try those two out*, but there's quite a few characters in their vein that may be easier to pick up and give more "reward" so to speak. Isabelle also has some moves that aren't exactly straightforward like Jab (which was buffed so it can wobble at the ledge, BTW) and Lloid Trap. Even within their general archetype one could argue that :ulttoonlink: and :ultzelda: are easier to get a grip of. They have a casual playerbase, but I dunno if it's large. In more serious business contexts the two - particularily Isabelle - are mostly harmed by the universal changes promoting faster gameplay and other zoners like :ultpacman: got buffed more than they did. That's not to say she's ineffective (there's a case to be made that she might be underrated because she's incredibly rare), but Isabelle in particular has not seen much screen time or success here. She's more well-rounded than Villager, but Villager's greater endurance, her really short Smash attacks and the counterplay to her Specials have harmed her perception.

*I'm saying this with a small asterisk attached since I'm not entirely sure how well-recieved either Villager in 4 or Isabelle in Ultimate were with more casual Smash players. It's entirely possible that those who really like AC are Villager / Isabelle's main casual fanbase in Smash, just as I kinda assume they form their competitive core.
Also doesn't help that the flashy gimmicks that could draw casuals have been far better implemented in 3rd parties than 1st parties. Even back in 4, I'd say Ryu's command inputs, Cloud's Limit Break and Bayo's Witch Time were not only matching with their gameplay, but were also fairly interesting in their own right.

Meanwhile, in terms of different gameplans for Nintendo characters, we got stuff like Monado Arts, Rosalina & Luma being a puppet character, plus gameplans like Little Mac's and WFT's. Which I'd argue are not only less accessive to casuals, but less interesting in general (or downright bad in Mac's case).

I still don't understand why they couldn't make Inkling have a shooting jab like Mega Man. And use more Splatoon Weapons instead of punches and kicks.
 

Rie Sonomura

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I feel like Smash takes a different approach from most other fighting games

Sakurai cares about the characters he adds. He tried to bring back Roy, Mewtwo and Dr. Mario back in Brawl but couldn’t due to time constraints; brought Dr. Mario back in 4’s base roster and Roy and Mewtwo as DLC. This was of course before Everyone is Here

I’m not saying he will for sure bring everyone back again. But he’ll at least try to, as much as he can
 

Gengar84

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I think it’s awesome to get all these big names like Sora in Smash but I hope there’s still room for smaller third parties to get in the next game. I would personally love to see some more retro characters like Battletoads, Fulgore, and Bill Rizer make it in. I’m hoping that with Rare games coming to Switch online that it might drive a bit of interest in their characters. Contra is my next pick for a Konami character but Bill has some competition with Bomberman and Goemon.
 

Momotsuki

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I kind of wish we got a second E3 2018-style EVERYONE IS HERE! trailer. It could have even funneled into Sora's own trailer - Inkling being the penultimate fighter seen - in a black void-y stage - to allow for a clean transition to the CGI. Sora's gameplay portion starts with "82 Sora" in the bottom-left corner.
 
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Cutie Gwen

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Also doesn't help that the flashy gimmicks that could draw casuals have been far better implemented in 3rd parties than 1st parties. Even back in 4, I'd say Ryu's command inputs, Cloud's Limit Break and Bayo's Witch Time were not only matching with their gameplay, but were also fairly interesting in their own right.

Meanwhile, in terms of different gameplans for Nintendo characters, we got stuff like Monado Arts, Rosalina & Luma being a puppet character, plus gameplans like Little Mac's and WFT's. Which I'd argue are not only less accessive to casuals, but less interesting in general (or downright bad in Mac's case).

I still don't understand why they couldn't make Inkling have a shooting jab like Mega Man. And use more Splatoon Weapons instead of punches and kicks.
Ehhhh Little Mac's gameplan is SUPER appealing to casuals, they don't understand how important being airborne is so they just throw out beefy armoured smash attacks, hell, when I played Smash 4 it seemed like everyone had a pocket Mac for ****s and giggles
 

Dinoman96

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If it makes anyone feel better, Sakurai didn't exactly 100% rule out "Everyone is here" happening again. From his "Smash is Special" Famitsu column:


However, I think that "Everyone is here!" is something that won't be repeated. Anything is possible, of course, so I can't rule anything out entirely, but I still think this won't happen again.
tbh Sakurai is a guy who kinda likes to undersell himself when making his games, iirc he said something about how he thought Brawl's roster was as big/good as it was gonna get.
 
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drag0nscythe

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I think it’s awesome to get all these big names like Sora in Smash but I hope there’s still room for smaller third parties to get in the next game. I would personally love to see some more retro characters like Battletoads, Fulgore, and Bill Rizer make it in. I’m hoping that with Rare games coming to Switch online that it might drive a bit of interest in their characters. Contra is my next pick for a Konami character but Bill has some competition with Bomberman and Goemon.
Yo. you said Goemon and you get mad respect. Konami needs to make their own platform fighter at this point. Bill, Pyramid Head, Bomberman, Goemon, Frogger and all the others need to be in a platform fighter.
 

Rie Sonomura

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If it makes anyone feel better, Sakurai didn't exactly 100% rule out "Everyone is here" happening again. From his "Smash is Special" Famitsu column:




tbh Sakurai is a guy who kinda likes to undersell himself, iirc he said something about how he thought Brawl's roster was as big/good as it was gonna get.
THANK YOU

I feel people forget the part you bolded a lot
 

3BitSaurus

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Ehhhh Little Mac's gameplan is SUPER appealing to casuals, they don't understand how important being airborne is so they just throw out beefy armoured smash attacks, hell, when I played Smash 4 it seemed like everyone had a pocket Mac for ****s and giggles
Oh, definitely. It's incredibly fun to land smash attacks as Mac. In fact, it's perhaps the only fun part of his gameplay. :roll:

So when they play as Mac against someone who understands the air game... yeah, that's when Mac stop being appealing.

TLDR - if you like Mac, just stick to playing your friends and hope they never get better than you. :4pacman:
 

Warumian

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Hot take: I wouldn't really mind having less newcomers in the base game if it meant getting everyone back again.
Yeah but I'd like to see improvements to the game if they are ever gonna port it to Switch 2, like fixing the entire online system (besides netcode, adding leaderboards, getting rid of the GSP system thing allowing us to change characters between matches). Also, more modes, Smash run is stuck in the 3ds game, finally bring break the targets and board the platforms back, boss rush that isn't exclusive to one character, etc. And making changes to the Spirits to resemble the trophies more (basic stuff like adding text detailing their origin).
 

ZelDan

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Hot take: I really don't like the idea of getting a Smash Ultimate Deluxe at all, unless it added a crazy amount of content and did alot to differentiate itself from Smash Ultimate, which I'm not confident it would do considering how stupidly huge Ultimate already is and the negotiation hell they'd probably have to go through just to get returning 3rd party vets.

I'm just saying that I've been playing Ultimate for almost 3 years and I've already grown some fatigue over the game. That's not to say I still don't enjoy it, but it also is far from fresh and special at this point and I'm sure this fatigue will only grow. If after 5-10 years of Ultimate fatigue I'm greeted with "Smash bros Ultimate again but with a few new things tacked on" I will actually be disappointed and underwhelmed as ****.

Hot take #2: I think people need to remember the ideas of "quality > quantity" and "different =/= worse." A hypothetical Smash 6 roster having less characters or cuts doesn't mean it would automatically inherently be worse or bad. At the end of the day there is an IMMENSE amount of cool gaming characters still not in Smash, and I'm not going to pretend I care about every inclusion in Smash up to this point. Depending on what cuts happen, what newcomers we get, what kinda of redesigns (visual or moveset-related) we get for returning veterans, then I think a "Smash 6" could have a roster that's as good, perhaps even better than Ultimate, even if it has cuts or less characters.
 
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