Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[Rie Sonomura]

Don’t think we’re ending on first party. Nintendo clearly saw the backlash of fire emblem being last and pooped their pants as I’m pretty sure there was potential evidence to say that min min wasn’t even meant to be first and would’ve come later onwards.

I mean it could still be Nintendo

it just won’t be Fire Emblem

 

[Guynamednelson]

it just won’t be Fire Emblem

It won't be FE, but not because they "learned their lesson" (which they would've done from Corrin if they wanted to learn a lesson). It'll instead be because there's no new FE to promote.

 

[GoodGrief741]

If you ask me Sephiroth wasn't picked to complete FF7's representation or because of the Remake. Sephiroth was added because he's one of the most iconic gaming characters, and everything else was at best another feather in his cap.

If they really wanted to ride the wave of FF7R's hype they would have released Seph as FP6 where he'd be closest to its release (and serve a function similar to Joker as the opening act). The fact that they didn't suggests to me that the remake wasn't really a deciding factor.

As for the content, I think it's worth remembering that that's licensed after the character given what Sakurai has disclosed. They could have gotten the rights to Sephiroth and only two songs to come with him for all they knew so that must not have been a deciding factor. Plus, it's clearly not a dealbreaker, given the music Hero got.

 

[Inferno7]

it's not really a pattern, it's more of a business decision. Once cp 11 releases smash won't be the huge money maker it is now. It makes much more sense for Nintendo to end on a recent 1st party so they can move the smash base (who all have a Nintendo switch so they can buy your games) to another game so they can keep making money off us. A third party could do that (like tracer since overwatch is on the switch) but a 1st party means that get all the money from the sales of whatever game the character is from.

Also, smash 4 dlc started with a 1st parties as well and then used big third parties to build hype for the 1st party ending. I easily see history being repeated this pass with them using the big third parties to buffer the less hype 1st parties (i.e. min min to steve, seph to pythra, and kazuya to whoever they pick). Of course, anything is possible but I'm leaning towards Nintendo being a corporation and going for the green rather than caring if they end on a banger or not.

Bad comparison, Sm4sh didn't include a Fighter's Pass to buy all chars at once, at best small bundles with 3+ characters each. Also the game didn't end on a 1st party which you got wrong, it was Bayo but heaven forbid people label her as a hype pick (which she was, I was there, it's just a matter of looking at Max Dood's reaction as she was largely seen as an impossible/pipedream character).

By putting Min Min, by far the least hype FP2 addition at the very start, means they made an awfully bad business decision. No matter how you put it, the whole "last character MUST be bad no matter what because screw other arguments telling me otherwise" is just blatant pessimism. Now you can believe that, but I've yet to see any convincing argument as to why it should be underwhelming.

 

[Guynamednelson]

but heaven forbid people label her as a hype pick

Whether you still got hyped for her doesn't matter, she's not as big of a deal as Street Fighter or Final Fantasy. She's not the messiah, she's a very naughty girl.

 

[NessAtc.]

Bad comparison, Sm4sh didn't include a Fighter's Pass to buy all chars at once, at best small bundles with 3+ characters each. Also the game didn't end on a 1st party which you got wrong, it was Bayo but heaven forbid people label her as a hype pick (which she was, I was there, it's just a matter of looking at Max Dood's reaction as she was largely seen as an impossible/pipedream character).

By putting Min Min, by far the least hype FP2 addition at the very start, means they made an awfully bad business decision. No matter how you put it, the whole "last character MUST be bad no matter what because screw other arguments telling me otherwise" is just blatant pessimism. Now you can believe that, but I've yet to see any convincing argument as to why it should be underwhelming.

I wouldn't say ARMS is a bad business pick by any means though. We all tend to forget that hype is often subjective.

 

[Inferno7]

Whether you still got hyped for her doesn't matter, she's not as big of a deal as Street Fighter or Final Fantasy. She's not the messiah, she's a very naughty girl.

Being hype doesn't mean you have to be as hype as the picks that came before, people were still excited and that's what matters
I can see several big albeit smaller picks fulfilling this niche, such as Rayman or Phoenix Wright.

I wouldn't say ARMS is a bad business pick by any means though. We all tend to forget that hype is often subjective.

Were most people hyped? There's your answer

 

[DittoInDisguise]

Bad comparison, Sm4sh didn't include a Fighter's Pass to buy all chars at once, at best small bundles with 3+ characters each. Also the game didn't end on a 1st party which you got wrong, it was Bayo but heaven forbid people label her as a hype pick (which she was, I was there, it's just a matter of looking at Max Dood's reaction as she was largely seen as an impossible/pipedream character).

By putting Min Min, by far the least hype FP2 addition at the very start, means they made an awfully bad business decision. No matter how you put it, the whole "last character MUST be bad no matter what because screw other arguments telling me otherwise" is just blatant pessimism. Now you can believe that, but I've yet to see any convincing argument as to why it should be underwhelming.

I don't think nintendo bundling things would change their plans, beyond expecting more people to buy the DLC due to bundles being cheaper than individual dlc. Also, Bayo is funded and published by Nintendo exclusively for their consoles so she offers the same benefits a 1st party fighter does (which is why I labeled her as one) and didn't say she was anti hype (though I understand I worded it like that), I said she was a recent release that Nintendo could direct the smash fanbase to purchase her game. The third party hype builders I mention are more of a "get eyes on smash" than giving people some comfort due to 1st parties being present.

I never said the final rep has to be underwhelming either. You said it yourself, Bayo was hype but she also fulfilled the requirements I mentioned above. The last character could easily be the same. Just because I say "recent 1st party" doesn't mean I'm saying "last fighter is going to be bad", all I'm saying is it makes sense for them to make the final fighter as a 1st party to move the smash base to other titles without the whole giving money to a 3rd party company thing. The fighter could be underwhelming, total hype, or somewhere in between.

 

[Adrianette Bromide]

I mean personally, any new series is hype IMO. It's a whole new world added to Smash crossing over more than just a character.

 

[Theguy123]

Think a lot more people would’ve been Hyped for min min if we didn’t have to wait around 7 months to find out who the actual character was. The pandemic kinda screwed the hype for this pass.

 

[Adrianette Bromide]

Think a lot more people would’ve been Hyped for min min if we didn’t have to wait around 7 months to find out who the actual character was. The pandemic kinda screwed the hype for this pass.

That was pain. Never reveal to us the game before the fighter with a varying cast ever again Nintendo.

 

[The Rhythm Theif]

Think a lot more people would’ve been Hyped for min min if we didn’t have to wait around 7 months to find out who the actual character was. The pandemic kinda screwed the hype for this pass.

Hey, patience is a virtue.

Yeah, the pandemic kind of messed up the schedule for the second Fighters Pass, that's true. But I'm fine with waiting. Some people aren't, and I've come to accept that. I honestly loved this Fighters Pass so far. We got an ARMS character that I like, Steve from Minecraft, - one of my favorite games - SEPHIROTH, Pyra & Mythra (WHO WERE REVEALED ON MY BIRTHDAY), and Kazuya from Tekken. Can't wait to see what the final fighter is, whether it's one I wanted or not.

 

[MattX20]

Here's a question I'm not sure has been asked, but has speculation soured your opinions on characters or their chances of inclusion? For me at least, it's Waluigi. I don't hate the character (only character I genuinely hated that was speculated for Smash was Heihachi, but he was deconfirmed) but I found the meme culture that surrounded him obnoxious on top of being constantly harassed about my thinking Waluigi is out because his AT's been consistent for 3 games straight while the AT upgrade characters (Little Mac, Dark Samus, and Isabelle) were one timers and didn't come back with their ATs when they got playable.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Here's a question I'm not sure has been asked, but has speculation soured your opinions on characters or their chances of inclusion? For me at least, it's Waluigi. I don't hate the character (only character I genuinely hated that was speculated for Smash was Heihachi, but he was deconfirmed) but I found the meme culture that surrounded him obnoxious on top of being constantly harassed about my thinking Waluigi is out because his AT's been consistent for 3 games straight while the AT upgrade characters (Little Mac, Dark Samus, and Isabelle) were one timers and didn't come back with their ATs when they got playable.

I’d say Ryu Hayabusa for me… mostly personal reasons I don’t wanna get into here

 

[Guynamednelson]

but has speculation soured your opinions on characters

Crash Bandicoot, mostly because people who think my faves have a 0% chance and it would suck if they got in anyway tend to rally around him being the lockiest lock in the universe.

 

[Theguy123]

Here's a question I'm not sure has been asked, but has speculation soured your opinions on characters or their chances of inclusion? For me at least, it's Waluigi. I don't hate the character (only character I genuinely hated that was speculated for Smash was Heihachi, but he was deconfirmed) but I found the meme culture that surrounded him obnoxious on top of being constantly harassed about my thinking Waluigi is out because his AT's been consistent for 3 games straight while the AT upgrade characters (Little Mac, Dark Samus, and Isabelle) were one timers and didn't come back with their ATs when they got playable.

Yes and no. The only place that makes me doubtful of my MW’s is 4chan because it’s obviously the most toxic place out there. I don’t trust people or things but sometimes I’ll see these theories spammed in 4chan posts and it’ll make me doubtful of my MW’s or of certain franchises.

Luckily I’m always hopeful so within 30 minutes of leaving 4chan I’m my mind feels refreshed and I’m back to speculating about my MW’s

 

[Adrianette Bromide]

Here's a question I'm not sure has been asked, but has speculation soured your opinions on characters or their chances of inclusion? For me at least, it's Waluigi. I don't hate the character (only character I genuinely hated that was speculated for Smash was Heihachi, but he was deconfirmed) but I found the meme culture that surrounded him obnoxious on top of being constantly harassed about my thinking Waluigi is out because his AT's been consistent for 3 games straight while the AT upgrade characters (Little Mac, Dark Samus, and Isabelle) were one timers and didn't come back with their ATs when they got playable.

Nope. Not one bit. If I've disliked a character (tbh it's really only 2 chars I would mald over in Smash lol) its on their terms and not their fans.

 

[Arctiq]

Here's a question I'm not sure has been asked, but has speculation soured your opinions on characters or their chances of inclusion? For me at least, it's Waluigi. I don't hate the character (only character I genuinely hated that was speculated for Smash was Heihachi, but he was deconfirmed) but I found the meme culture that surrounded him obnoxious on top of being constantly harassed about my thinking Waluigi is out because his AT's been consistent for 3 games straight while the AT upgrade characters (Little Mac, Dark Samus, and Isabelle) were one timers and didn't come back with their ATs when they got playable.

Crash Bandicoot, mostly because people who think my faves have a 0% chance and it would suck if they got in anyway tend to rally around him being the lockiest lock in the universe.

+1 on crash bandicoot. It's so annoying how people think he's the absolute likeliest to get in, like he's on some kind of untouchable pedestal. When in reality, everyone has a shot

 

[SNEKeater]

Obligatory shoutout to some really underrated OSTs:

Wipeout's soundtrack is phenomenal.

Unlikely as hell but having music from the series in Smash would be so cool.

If you ask me Sephiroth wasn't picked to complete FF7's representation or because of the Remake. Sephiroth was added because he's one of the most iconic gaming characters, and everything else was at best another feather in his cap.

If they really wanted to ride the wave of FF7R's hype they would have released Seph as FP6 where he'd be closest to its release (and serve a function similar to Joker as the opening act). The fact that they didn't suggests to me that the remake wasn't really a deciding factor.

As for the content, I think it's worth remembering that that's licensed after the character given what Sakurai has disclosed. They could have gotten the rights to Sephiroth and only two songs to come with him for all they knew so that must not have been a deciding factor. Plus, it's clearly not a dealbreaker, given the music Hero got.

Sephiroth being included because of the remake makes 0 sense to be honest.

Like, if he had come with some Remake content, then I could at least kinda get why people could think that. But it wasn't the case.

Nintendo probably wanted Sephiroth from the get go, Sakurai gave them their approval, and then went to Square Enix. Obviously it was a move that probably seemed very good in Square's eyes, another Smash character is probably a big deal for any third party, and in this case they could take advantage of the situation timing-wise, with Sephiroth being announced while they're working on the whole FFVII Remake project. It's basically a win-win situation for them, honestly.

I mean maybe the higher ups at Nintendo were like "we could pick Sephiroth, and now with the whole remake thing, he's very relevant againt", but the Remake was definitely not the reason why they picked him.

 

[Schnee117]

Here's a question I'm not sure has been asked, but has speculation soured your opinions on characters or their chances of inclusion? For me at least, it's Waluigi. I don't hate the character (only character I genuinely hated that was speculated for Smash was Heihachi, but he was deconfirmed) but I found the meme culture that surrounded him obnoxious on top of being constantly harassed about my thinking Waluigi is out because his AT's been consistent for 3 games straight while the AT upgrade characters (Little Mac, Dark Samus, and Isabelle) were one timers and didn't come back with their ATs when they got playable.

Outside of extreme circumstances that I really don't want to get into, no.
At most its just "I don't want to associate with you guys" otherwise it's just being really petty to go further than that imo

 

[Inferno7]

Here's a question I'm not sure has been asked, but has speculation soured your opinions on characters or their chances of inclusion? For me at least, it's Waluigi. I don't hate the character (only character I genuinely hated that was speculated for Smash was Heihachi, but he was deconfirmed) but I found the meme culture that surrounded him obnoxious on top of being constantly harassed about my thinking Waluigi is out because his AT's been consistent for 3 games straight while the AT upgrade characters (Little Mac, Dark Samus, and Isabelle) were one timers and didn't come back with their ATs when they got playable.

While I do get extremely tired of hearing the same names over and over again, I feel like it's somewhat silly to hate characters because of that unless you didn't like them to begin with

However, in my case it was;

-Crash: He's the poster boy for clickbaity thumbnails and fake leaks. What can I say, by far one of the most blown out of proportion candidates ever in Smash's history. He's not bad, but the hype around him is overly exaggerated.

-Hayabusa: I've had bad experiences with his fans by hearing he's a lock over and over again. It's that annoying, passive-aggressive confidence that Smash fans have which I'm not really into.

-Eggman: Nothing against this character but I honestly don't think he would be a good fit for Smash as a playable fighter, as an Assist or Boss? Yeah absolutely, but I feel like his support is sorta bandwagoney and quota-ridden rather than because he was people's first choice as a Sonic rep before. They were just like ''hey Sephiroth can make it, so Eggman is obviously in (or should get in because reasons)''.

-SMT as a whole: Same as Hayabusa. Franchise is completely blown out of proportion and SMT fans tend to be overly optimistic about its inclusion, and I don't really want to see people shilling picks I don't want or care about down my throat.

 

[SNEKeater]

While I do get extremely tired of hearing the same names over and over again, I feel like it's somewhat silly to hate characters because of that unless you didn't like them to begin with

However, in my case it was;

-Crash: He's the poster boy for clickbaity thumbnails and fake leaks. What can I say, by far one of the most blown out of proportion candidates ever in Smash's history. He's not bad, but the hype around him is overly exaggerated.

-Hayabusa: I've had bad experiences with his fans by hearing he's a lock over and over again. It's that annoying, passive-aggressive confidence that Smash fans have which I'm not really into.

-Eggman: Nothing against this character but I honestly don't think he would be a good fit for Smash as a playable fighter, as an Assist or Boss? Yeah absolutely, but I feel like his support is sorta bandwagoney and quota-ridden rather than because he was people's first choice as a Sonic rep before. They were just like ''hey Sephiroth can make it, so Eggman is obviously in (or should get in because reasons)''.

-SMT as a whole: Same as Hayabusa. Franchise is completely blown out of proportion and SMT fans tend to be overly optimistic about its inclusion, and I don't really want to see people shilling picks I don't want or care about down my throat.

Tbh I don't think I've ever seen anyone being "overly optimistic" about a SMT character, as in fans considering SMT as a lock. I've seen that with a few Hayabusa fans, but SMT? Not in my experience.
Not saying you're lying or anything btw, just that I'm surprised by that statement.

I do agree that Crash is pretty much the "mascot" for clickbait videos about Smash DLC. I'd add Sora and Hayabusa as well, but that's not really fault of the characters or even it's fans, just people taking advantage of these characters being popular names and using them to boost their videos.

 

[RileyXY1]

Tbh I don't think I've ever seen anyone being "overly optimistic" about a SMT character, as in fans considering SMT as a lock. I've seen that with a few Hayabusa fans, but SMT? Not in my experience.
Not saying you're lying or anything btw, just that I'm surprised by that statement.

I do agree that Crash is pretty much the "mascot" for clickbait videos about Smash DLC. I'd add Sora and Hayabusa as well, but that's not really fault of the characters or even it's fans, just people taking advantage of these characters being popular names and using them to boost their videos.

Crash is basically the new Geno in terms of being an incredibly overrated character in Smash speculation, except unlike Geno Crash has actual merits in terms of speculation and chances.

 

[Inferno7]

Tbh I don't think I've ever seen anyone being "overly optimistic" about a SMT character, as in fans considering SMT as a lock. I've seen that with a few Hayabusa fans, but SMT? Not in my experience.
Not saying you're lying or anything btw, just that I'm surprised by that statement.

I do agree that Crash is pretty much the "mascot" for clickbait videos about Smash DLC. I'd add Sora and Hayabusa as well, but that's not really fault of the characters or even it's fans, just people taking advantage of these characters being popular names and using them to boost their videos.

There's lots of people in SmashFAQs saying SMTV guy is a lock, not sure about here though

 

[RileyXY1]

There's lots of people in SmashFAQs saying SMTV guy is a lock, not sure about here though

I don't know about that due to the fact that FP2 was decided back in November of 2019.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

There's lots of people in SmashFAQs saying SMTV guy is a lock, not sure about here though

GameFAQs is pretty toxic though

 

[Adrianette Bromide]

There's lots of people in SmashFAQs saying SMTV guy is a lock, not sure about here though

Okay to be fair, even idk why John SMT V is considered a lock. It's just cause Nintendo = we will shill new games on our system which while true has only happened once this pass for a 3rd party (and even then, Hero probably would have gotten in without 11S on the Switch but Erdrick would be the main alt.) If there's gonna be an SMT character, it can't be someone people hardly know!

 

[CapitaineCrash]

Here's a question I'm not sure has been asked, but has speculation soured your opinions on characters or their chances of inclusion? For me at least, it's Waluigi. I don't hate the character (only character I genuinely hated that was speculated for Smash was Heihachi, but he was deconfirmed) but I found the meme culture that surrounded him obnoxious on top of being constantly harassed about my thinking Waluigi is out because his AT's been consistent for 3 games straight while the AT upgrade characters (Little Mac, Dark Samus, and Isabelle) were one timers and didn't come back with their ATs when they got playable.

This is not a specific character but I really hate people who are like "it would be cool to have another Fire emblem characters just because of the salt of the Smash fans xDDDD". I genuinely don't care if someone's most wanted is more Fire emblem (I know Lyn is a long time requested for some), but at least give a better argument than wanting character just to make other mad on purpose.

Aside from that, Crash Bandicoot also comes to mind like Guynamednelson. What I hate the most is when people argue that Crash was as important as Sonic or Mario and that he would complete the big platformer trio. Crash was a pretty big deal, but he was never near Mario or Sonic in term of iconicness or popularity. He's also not even really a Playstation character so the idea that he would be the ultimate Playstation rep just sounds weird to me.

 

[Inferno7]

Okay to be fair, even idk why John SMT V is considered a lock. It's just cause Nintendo = we will shill new games on our system which while true has only happened once this pass for a 3rd party (and even then, Hero probably would have gotten in without 11S on the Switch but Erdrick would be the main alt.) If there's gonna be an SMT character, it can't be someone people hardly know!

Yeah, I kinda feel the same way
I'd personally like to have Demi-Chad over SMTV guy, that way the Featuring Dante memes will only get better

 

[RileyXY1]

People are only talking about SMTV's protag getting in because they believe that the last character has to be a shillpick for an upcoming game even though that isn't guaranteed.

 

[MattX20]

The main issue with people's arguments regarding the SMT5 protagonist is that the game was stuck in development since 2017. FE3H was only delayed by a single year from its intended 2018 release, where as SMT5 is only now releasing this year in November. The DLC for the second fighter pass was finalized in 2019

 

[RileyXY1]

The main issue with people's arguments regarding the SMT5 protagonist is that the game was stuck in development since 2017. FE3H was only delayed by a single year, where as SMT5 is only now releasing this year in Novemberr. The DLC for the second fighter pass was finalized in 2019

And he would also run the risk of being outdated due to changes in development that could have been made after FP2 was finalized.

 

[Guynamednelson]

What I hate the most is when people argue that Crash was as important as Sonic or Mario and that he would complete the big platformer trio. Crash was a pretty big deal, but he was never near Mario or Sonic in term of iconicness or popularity

Even when I was a little kid and the PS1 games were coming out I never considered "Mario vs. Sonic vs. Crash" to be as iconic as just "Mario vs. Sonic".

 

[chocolatejr9]

Here's a question I'm not sure has been asked, but has speculation soured your opinions on characters or their chances of inclusion? For me at least, it's Waluigi. I don't hate the character (only character I genuinely hated that was speculated for Smash was Heihachi, but he was deconfirmed) but I found the meme culture that surrounded him obnoxious on top of being constantly harassed about my thinking Waluigi is out because his AT's been consistent for 3 games straight while the AT upgrade characters (Little Mac, Dark Samus, and Isabelle) were one timers and didn't come back with their ATs when they got playable.

If we're talking specifically speculation, then the memes not only got me to hate Waluigi in Smash, they got me to hate Waluigi in GENERAL. People act like he's the most complex character in the entire series, but... he literally only exists so Wario would have a tennis partner. THAT'S IT. Of all the characters you could devote an entire cult to, you choose HIM?

Also, while I don't outright hate him (in fact, I actually WANT him), I do agree that Crash fans aren't exactly the best people to be around. Especially the delusional ones that popped up after what happened to Toys For Bob, but that's Activision's fault, not Smash's. Unless anybody wants to start another "Activision bad give like" discussion, I'll just leave it there.

Other than that, the only other characters I DON'T want in Smash are an Overwatch rep and a The Last of Us rep, both of which are due to personal reasons. I'm surprisingly open to pretty much anybody, come to think of it. Heck, if Sakurai could incorporate somebody like Baldi or Mama Tattletail into Smash and have it work, I think I'd be more impressed than mad...

 

[DanganZilla5]

Here's a question I'm not sure has been asked, but has speculation soured your opinions on characters or their chances of inclusion? For me at least, it's Waluigi. I don't hate the character (only character I genuinely hated that was speculated for Smash was Heihachi, but he was deconfirmed) but I found the meme culture that surrounded him obnoxious on top of being constantly harassed about my thinking Waluigi is out because his AT's been consistent for 3 games straight while the AT upgrade characters (Little Mac, Dark Samus, and Isabelle) were one timers and didn't come back with their ATs when they got playable.

I won't name names but there are a few characters whose fanbases got on my nerves in the past. But that never impacted my opinion on the character. Like there is a certain character on my signature whose fanbase I've seen get really cocky and overly-defensive and yet despite that annoyance it has not made me dislike the character, whose games I enjoy and appreciate. It's similar to the idea of separating an artist from their work, only we are replacing artist with fans in this scenario but you get my point.

Besides, I don't quite get the idea of hating a product that you used to enjoy simply because of the "toxic" fanbase. I understand that when you love something you will want to engage in the larger crowd and that is harder to swallow when you don't want to be associated with certain people. But there are always good apples in every group, you just have to find them and stick with them.

 

[GoodGrief741]

he literally only exists so Wario would have a tennis partner. THAT'S IT. Of all the characters you could devote an entire cult to, you choose HIM?

Most videogame characters exist for lesser reasons than that. Why a character is created and what they grow to become are two very unrelated aspects, and that goes for any work of fiction. If we started speaking about every iconic character that was created by complete accident or necessity rather than instant inspiration we'd be here all day.

 

[SNEKeater]

There's lots of people in SmashFAQs saying SMTV guy is a lock, not sure about here though

I myself think Nahobino from SMTV isn't impossible for CP11, but it's still unlikely. I think they would go with Demi-fiend.

But yeah, over here people isn't really confident in SMT as a lock. I mean... in one hand, we have one character left. So at this point no one is a lock to be honest. And second, if there's more talk about SMT it's because of SMTV coming soon and being an important Switch exclusive. If anything I think fans over here are just happy of SMT being finally considered a serious pick for Smash, at least that's my case.

I don't know about GameFAQS though, I have only visited it for guides lol

 

[NessAtc.]

Being hype doesn't mean you have to be as hype as the picks that came before, people were still excited and that's what matters
I can see several big albeit smaller picks fulfilling this niche, such as Rayman or Phoenix Wright.


Were most people hyped? There's your answer

Compared to Steve or Sephiroth, I'd have to say no, but the hype for it probably was at least on the level of Pyra and Mythra. The problem was the disconnect between the reveal of the series and the reveal of the character.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

Ah yes, expanding the franchise to include a villain from a game already in smash. What a deep cut.

"Filling the emptiness" of FF7 content in base wasn't the reason why Sephiroth got chosen. If you think nintendo does things like that to give people a more "complete" package you're mistaken. Nintendo doesn't really care, because what they could get is what they could get. They went for more FF7 because FF7 was still ripe for the picking with Remake, not to give us more FF7 content. That was only a side effect of them getting Sephiroth in.

Even if you think Kazuya disproves the idea that mii costumes in DLC deconfirm, there's still not much reason to think many of the franchises you listed, such as monster hunter, should be getting in. It seems painfully obvious that Monster Hunter's just gonna be settling with the content it has now, with its assist trophy, world of light boss and map, two songs, array of spirits, and three mii costumes. Feels like MH is definitively gone, no matter how you slice it.

As for Crash, Rayman, etc, I doubt that having successful games on the platform necessarily creates interest in Nintendo's eyes.

I uh... didn't say anything about Sephiroth being a deep cut?

As I say in the next message, I do think Nintendo and Sakurai would have recognized some of the frustrations with FF's content and pushed for more. But the broader point of my post, bringing in a second FF character was not indicative of them "not wanting to expand" the crossover because Sephiroth both filled in a major gap in content that was very noticeable AND because Sephiroth was an incredibly iconic villain of a massively popular and influential game that brought the first third party villain in a playable form to Smash. You tried to use Sephiroth as some sort of gotcha for them running out of third party choices when that's just blatantly not the case and myself and others have pointed to why Sephiroth would be included independently of them "running out of viable third parties".

Do I think Monster Hunter is actually coming? Not particularly at this venue, but it was just again in the broader service of my point as to what third parties were on the table that would still have relevance to Nintendo and that they could have an interest in. Monster Hunter has just had too many "almost" moments, but it's technically as much on the table as any other franchise that got additional content in this pass that many of us thought would be out with an earlier appearance of that franchise in a smaller role.

I'm also very confused as to why you're turning around and saying that Crash and Rayman don't make since because they "have successful games on the platform" when you just made a point as to FF7 Remake being important to Sephiroth in the same exact post. What exactly is the point you're trying to make with that comment and how does it not immediately get kind of weakened by the inclusions of Tekken and Persona that have next to nothing to do with Nintendo's stuff to begin with? They've been willing to pick franchises they are less directly interested in and they've also picked franchises they've very clearly had a more vested interest or crossover appeal with in regards to the likes of Minecraft and Dragon Quest. I feel like that indicates that they are pretty open to a lot of third party stuff across the spectrum, and even if we have 17 characters from third parties at this point, there's a LOT of untapped stuff Nintendo would potentially have an interest in or just recognize as great for crossover appeal. A lot of stuff may not be in a great position for Challenger Pack 11, but beyond that and in the future, there's plenty of avenues Smash could go and could have gone had they had a Pass 3 in regards to "third parties Nintendo would likely be interested in".

If you ask me Sephiroth wasn't picked to complete FF7's representation or because of the Remake. Sephiroth was added because he's one of the most iconic gaming characters, and everything else was at best another feather in his cap.

If they really wanted to ride the wave of FF7R's hype they would have released Seph as FP6 where he'd be closest to its release (and serve a function similar to Joker as the opening act). The fact that they didn't suggests to me that the remake wasn't really a deciding factor.

As for the content, I think it's worth remembering that that's licensed after the character given what Sakurai has disclosed. They could have gotten the rights to Sephiroth and only two songs to come with him for all they knew so that must not have been a deciding factor. Plus, it's clearly not a dealbreaker, given the music Hero got.

I do think that Nintendo was aware of how unhappy people were with Final Fantasy content in base game though and in general. If they were aware enough to make costumes for Dragonborn, Dante, and Shantae with a nod to fan requests, I think that knowing FF had basically nothing at least influenced Nintendo somewhat even if it wasn't the sole deciding factor in Sephiroth's inclusion. I think a lot of factors made Sephiroth the Square Enix pick in general for Pass 2 and I think while FF7 Remake probably had nothing to do with it on Nintendo's side, I'd say it probably didn't take much for Square Enix to approve Sephiroth when he was back in a huge starring role again in Remake.

I think, at the very least, Nintendo and Sakurai did approach Sqaure Enix hoping for a bit more this go around with Final Fantasy based upon how limited the prior offerings were with Cloud. Would it have been a deal breaker? Almost assuredly not, but I think it was something they were more mindful of this time (also Hero's offerings weren't that bad music wise, they were MIDIs without remixes, but not even Square Enix can consistently get anything else out of Sugiyama lol).

 

[GoodGrief741]

I've seen more people bemoan that Nahobino is actually not as likely as he's said to be/outright impossible than I've seen people seriously considering him. Seems like a preventive overreaction to me.

Then again I do think he's likely.