Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[Guynamednelson]

while 3rd parties still have a ton left to offer.

But do you honestly expect them to keep up the hype? Have we learned nothing from the Grinch Leak and misinterpreted DMC3 news? They already have your money, they don't need to worry about how "bottom of the barrel" a character is.

 

[Shroob]

But do you honestly expect them to keep up the hype? Have we learned nothing from the Grinch Leak and misinterpreted DMC3 news? They already have your money, they don't need to worry about how "bottom of the barrel" a character is.

The next character's going to be their E3 reveal, so yes, I expect something big at E3. It may not appeal to everyone, but I definitely think that whoever they have at E3 will be a decently big character. Maybe not groundbreaking, but still big.

For FP11, anything could happen. Could be big, could be a wet fart, we don't know.


If DLC ends there, then that's all she wrote. If it continues past FP2, we don't even know what form it'll take.

 

[7NATOR]

Just counting the Characters. FP1 + FP2 costs almost as much as the actual game itself (Just $5 off), and since Nintendo doesn't like having Price drops on it's 1st Party characters, any future content for Ultimate will go past the actual game itself

For new Consumers, that's gonna be quite the hill to die on, so at that point they might want to do Another Game, whether it's just a upgraded/Rebranded version of Ultimate, or something entirely new

hmm, say, what would you think the chances of Tails being apart of Fighters Pass vol 2 as of now?
View attachment 314707

honestly, for me, I'm unsure, he's my most wanted, but people take the Mii costume and his appearance in Green Hill Zone in consideration, but I want to know what you guys think, just curious really.

Tails's Mii Costume was in the First pack of FP1, and that pack came at a time before the speculated time FP2 was greenlit

I Know there is thought the entirety of FP2 was decided at the same time as FP1, and there's great arguments that certain characters (Steve and Sephiroth in particular) would have gotten in even if FP2 wasn't a thing. However the fact that Min Min and Pyra/Mythra were spirits show that FP2 wasn't gonna be a guarantee even if there were ideas of more fighters after FP1

The Base game Sonic Content would have been negotiated sometime in 2015, so the Spirit and the Green Hill appearance I don't think conflicts with the FP2 timing. as for the Mii Costume, as explained, a Full FP2 probably wasn't greenlit, so it was better to put the Mii Costume in Joker's pack as if FP1 was really gonna be all there is to FP2

Tails himself is an Iconic character, a Character I've seen alot of requests for, some even since Melee, and of course he's very relevant. His Focus on the air, along with his technical prowess could be used to craft a Fast paced Versatile aerial fighter. Sega loves licensing out it's characters, and Sega hasn't gotten any content in FP2, but we know they are on board with the Pass since Sonic has featured in the CGI Portions of trailers

Personally though, I'm on the Shadow train, but there's reason for Tails to get in also though. You do you

I think there's an argument to be made that all of those characters barring plant were base game characters, and Plant was technically free for a lot of the playerbase.

As much as I'd like more quirky and obscure 1st parties as DLC characters, DLC is meant to sell first and foremost, and as of now, barring Plant, all 3 Nintendo characters have had a game on the Switch, which basically doubles up as free advertising. I'd sooner expect Astral Chain or Ring Fit over something like, Doshin, Bubbles, or Mach Rider.



So this means Ayumi Tachibana is happening.

I Know you Kid, but I do got to actually ask if People speculating Ayumi as a likely FP2 character are being serious?

 

[Cyberfire]

hmm, say, what would you think the chances of Tails being apart of Fighters Pass vol 2 as of now?
View attachment 314707

honestly, for me, I'm unsure, he's my most wanted, but people take the Mii costume and his appearance in Green Hill Zone in consideration, but I want to know what you guys think, just curious really.

Honestly anything is possible at this point, there is incentive on Sega's part too, with his upcoming major role in the next Sonic movie. I certainly don't think his Green Hill cameo rules him out, plenty of characters appear in stages and are playable.

 

[Shroob]

Just counting the Characters. FP1 + FP2 costs almost as much as the actual game itself (Just $5 off), and since Nintendo doesn't like having Price drops on it's 1st Party characters, any future content for Ultimate will go past the actual game itself

For new Consumers, that's gonna be quite the hill to die on, so at that point they might want to do Another Game, whether it's just a upgraded/Rebranded version of Ultimate, or something entirely new




Tails's Mii Costume was in the First pack of FP1, and that pack came at a time before the speculated time FP2 was greenlit

I Know there is thought the entirety of FP2 was decided at the same time as FP1, and there's great arguments that certain characters (Steve and Sephiroth in particular) would have gotten in even if FP2 wasn't a thing. However the fact that Min Min and Pyra/Mythra were spirits show that FP2 wasn't gonna be a guarantee even if there were ideas of more fighters after FP1

The Base game Sonic Content would have been negotiated sometime in 2015, so the Spirit and the Green Hill appearance I don't think conflicts with the FP2 timing. as for the Mii Costume, as explained, a Full FP2 probably wasn't greenlit, so it was better to put the Mii Costume in Joker's pack as if FP1 was really gonna be all there is to FP2

Tails himself is an Iconic character, a Character I've seen alot of requests for, some even since Melee, and of course he's very relevant. His Focus on the air, along with his technical prowess could be used to craft a Fast paced Versatile aerial fighter. Sega loves licensing out it's characters, and Sega hasn't gotten any content in FP2, but we know they are on board with the Pass since Sonic has featured in the CGI Portions of trailers

Personally though, I'm on the Shadow train, but there's reason for Tails to get in also though. You do you



I Know you Kid, but I do got to actually ask if People speculating Ayumi as a likely FP2 character are being serious?

I do kid, but at the same time, it'd be a funny, albeit "Eh?" way to end the pass on.


A character that Sakurai's admitted to considering in the past, who now no longer has the excuse of being Japan only, while also having a game on the Switch would be such a Nintendo move.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

I REPEAT: Tekken 7 had almost no additional content for over TWO YEARS, yet they still have made so much money once they started that they haven't stopped even into 2021.

I’m not really sure what kind of point you were trying to make by stating this but nevertheless this is blatantly untrue.

March 2015: Tekken 7 launches IN ARCADES
July 2016: Tekken 7: Fated Retribution launches IN ARCADES with Akuma and Nina Williams from day one and Bob and Master Raven added later that year
June 2017: Tekken 7 launches ON CONSOLE adding additional console exclusive characters

And I’m sure you can see where it goes from here. Tekken 7 didn’t come to home consoles until 2017 and they’ve been doing Season Passes ever since. If they have a 2 year gap EVER you can bet that that’s the end of the additional content

 

[ForsakenM]

I’m not really sure what kind of point you were trying to make by stating this but nevertheless this is blatantly untrue.

March 2015: Tekken 7 launches IN ARCADES
July 2016: Tekken 7: Fated Retribution launches IN ARCADES with Akuma and Nina Williams from day one and Bob and Master Raven added later that year
June 2017: Tekken 7 launches ON CONSOLE adding additional console exclusive characters

And I’m sure you can see where it goes from here. Tekken 7 didn’t come to home consoles until 2017 and they’ve been doing Season Passes ever since. If they have a 2 year gap EVER you can bet that that’s the end of the additional content

Ah, turns out that is the case, that is my mistake. I was looking for the launch date and it provided me with the arcade release and I didn't dig deeper to find out that was incorrect. Thanks for the correction there.

Even still, the point of the design of DLC and how they map it out to have intended gaps still holds up, as well as having support for many years after release. If anything, this shows that they have been supporting the game with new content before it even hit consoles, and thus have been supporting the game with addition content for even longer than I originally thought, proving even more the success of the strategy.

 

[Metal Shop X]

Isn't Blazblue Cross Tag a better exemple of a game that, while the dev haven't officially abandoned yet, the years of no new content pretty much confirms that the game is done DLC wise?

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Ah, turns out that is the case, that is my mistake. I was looking for the launch date and it provided me with the arcade release and I didn't dig deeper to find out that was incorrect. Thanks for the correction there.

Even still, the point of the design of DLC and how they map it out to have intended gaps still holds up, as well as having support for many years after release. If anything, this shows that they have been supporting the game with new content before it even hit consoles, and thus have been supporting the game with addition content for even longer than I originally thought, proving even more the success of the strategy

Sure, but at the time Pass 2 ends and a possible Pass 3 begins we would be going on a 4th year of ongoing support for Ultimate. Which granted isn’t impossible but judging the landscape and Sakurai’s thoughts on this Pass it doesn’t seem likely. By 2022 it’s likely that research & development on the Switch’s successor would be moving into its final stages and being pushed to production to launch sometime in 2023/4ish. So wouldn’t it make more sense to move resources over to develop the next Smash game on that?

I think you’re looking at the smaller picture without glancing at the larger one. Smash won’t be OVER per se it’ll just be on hiatus until next console as they always do. I mean yeah they could have continued Smash 4’s DLC development into end of 2016 - early 2017 as well but they instead decided to push their resources over to Ultimate. They ended up with a 2 1/2 year gap to develop Ultimate from the end of 4’s DLC. It’s completely possible for them to receive that same time frame (or reasonably longer) for next game.

 

[N3ON]

You also have to take into account that three years of pseudo-regular paid DLC is longer, by far, than basically any other Nintendo game. Looking at other games by other companies in the same genre is one thing but you also have to take into account who we're dealing with here.

We're dealing with the company that hasn't made any paid DLC for a Mario Kart that's going to end up selling over 40 million units. They do not milk DLC for everything it's worth.

 

[Shroob]

I've been on record to say I'd like a 3rd pass.


But Sakurai's like, ten times doubled down on "This is it". Sure, you could try to waggle your finger all smug like and say "This is but a lie! Sakurai is lying to us!"


But the man's been nothing but honest with us this game, and I don't see why now of all times to doubt him.



There are currently 0 credible leaks that exist to prove the existence of a 3rd pass coming, and as it's been seen, currently, leakers only know who the character is a day/a couple hours before the presentation, or recently, not at all if Sephiroth or Pyra are anything to go by. Any soothsayers claiming to know who's coming months in advance at this point in time are nothing but liars, to be frank.

 

[ForsakenM]

Biggest difference here that you're not really addressing is that a vast majority of Smash's DLC is 3rd-party focused, while 1st parties usually tend to be lesser in amount compared to 3rd. Games like Tekken have had 3rd party characters yes, but they don't take up a majority of the DLC roster(iirc), and DBFZ are all strictly Dragon Ball, despite Toriyama having other characters that they could pull from, like Dr.Slump. 3rd party characters cost licensing fees, on top of already having to pay a staff to make said characters, and Nintendo is flipping the bill for 'em sure, but Smash is like every other game in existence. Over time, player retention will drop off, which translates into less DLC sales. The more you stretch out a game's life, the less and less people will buy DLC, look at any other game as proof of that, Smash is no exception. I'd bet money that less people bought the 2nd pass than they did the first, if only because the first pass launched alongside the base game, while the 2nd pass was an entire year afterwards.

Sure, Nintendo could focus DLC to be more 1st party-leaning, but we're also scraping the bottom of the barrel for characters that Nintendo would have to offer. Waluigi, Ring Fit Trainer, Toad, Bandana Dee and Dixie are 5 names that come to mind, new Pokemon as well, but after that, you have characters like Isaac, who appeal to hardcore speculators and Smash fans, but not a more general audience(And Nintendo has seemingly no desire to make Camelot revive the franchise so haha). Ultimate has covered the Nintendo part of Nintendo very well, and while there are some names missing, there comes a point where you're starting to scrape up Z-listers, like Saavy Stylist, or Rusty's Real Deal baseball dude.


At what point does Nintendo look at Smash, now a 3 year old game at this point, and say "We're done pumping money into licensing, keep a crew on for balance adjustments and bugs and start planning the next installment for the next console?" Because I can almost guarantee that Ultimate will not receive new content throughout the rest of the Switch's lifecycle. There will inevitably come a day where they pull the plug on DLC.


I very much feel like this could be it, and if it's not, then hey, that's also cool, but there comes a point where one has to make peace with a very real possibility, something I'd argue that a lot of people have due to Sakurai's insistence that this is it. If it's not, then that's also fine, if there's more after this, we all win, but I seriously don't understand your constant denial and trying to paint people that don't agree with your viewpoint as people who are down in the dumps or haters, tbh. All parties end eventually, be it this year or sometime in the future, but they don't last forever. Trying to effectively throw out the viewpoints of people who don't agree with you as simply being "A hivemind", or "Downers", is frankly off-putting.

So first off, I can prove you wrong about a lack of first party characters. Obviously, the easy way out is to just shill your new **** into Smash, but I'm not just going to take that route.

Here is a list of first party characters a friend of mine and I came up with in about ten minutes that barely touches anything close to shill and has request behind them.

• Waluigi
• Captain Toad/Toad
• Bandanna Waddle Dee
• Dixie Kong
• Isaac

And now that I've completed your part of the list that we also came up with in about five seconds, here is what was added by the two of us.

• Krystal
• Skull Kid
• Porky
• Paper Mario
• Elma
• Impa
• Midna
• Magalor
• Adeleine & Ribbon
• Marx
• Cranky Kong
• Funky Kong
• Chorus Kids/Karate Joe
• Ashley
• Mach Rider
• Ninten
• Lyn
• Chibi-Robo
• Mike Jones

And once again, this is all without really touching clear promotional **** like Sylux, Ring Fit Trainer, a current/next gen Pokemon or any number of popular older Pokemon or some crazy **** like Musashi from Sushi Striker and we stopped about there and got distracted to a new topic. Clearly, the well for first party hasn't run dry just yet. Keep in mind that much like Inklings and Splatoon, a new IP could come out this year or just a new game in an existing franchise and introduce something we all want in Smash, thus giving even more opportunities that straddle the line between corporate greed and fan demand.

I think this next part may address NonSpecificGuy as well. Now let's take a hypothetical here: let's say that the next two characters in Pass 2 are both third party and that any Pass after that would have to be the same, with two first party and 4 third party. From just your list from your comment, you have enough for two more passes, and let's not even touch on mine nor the prospects of promotional picks or wild cards.

There are plenty of third party fish in the sea to toss in for these hypothetical four slots per pass. Do you see how easy it would be for Nintendo to keep doing this? All they would have to do is make sure that the characters they pick turn enough profit for themselves, which when you factor in the savings on less resources to spend on and how so many people buy up a new pass before a single character is revealed (let alone a big first reveal [Joker] or just a big reveal in general [Steve]) you can see how the practice is designed to make enough money to cover any fees and then some. Thus, when you add in first party characters that people want or that capitalize on marketing very well, that money goes directly to them and helps out even more.

If Nintendo, the richest Japanese company wanted to, they could just port the game over to the next console and keep supporting it even past the Switch if they wanted to. Using my very-recently corrected example of Tekken 7, that game has been supported since before it ever hit consoles. That game is now over six years old and JUST GOT DLC TWO MONTHS AGO. Upgraded versions of consoles and three brand new consoles have launched since that game came out and they STILL haven't dropped it yet! What is this talk about Smash not even being three years old and already seeing the signs of aging and death? Sure, eventually it will stop, but the Switch has just hit the middle of it's life cycle. If they don't port the game or release a deluxe version, they can easily give Smash another pass or two before calling it a wrap.

Also, the assumption being made here is that an upgraded Switch won't extend the lifecycle at all, or that a massively-upgraded Switch isn't the actual future, which I will admit are fair assumptions. However, this also doesn't take in the fact that this is likely the last opportunity for Smash to have this kind of potential and the drive and push behind to keep it going, the crazy amount of money they have made off this DLC and how this is success Nintendo hasn't really had in this area before and the interest to continue it.

You also have to take into account that three years of pseudo-regular paid DLC is longer, by far, than basically any other Nintendo game. Looking at other games by other companies in the same genre is one thing but you also have to take into account who we're dealing with here.

We're dealing with the company that hasn't made any paid DLC for a Mario Kart that's going to end up selling over 40 million units. They do not milk DLC for everything it's worth.

They didn't use to, but with this new level of success, I'm not sure you can use that as a flawless point of discussion anymore. Remember, for both better and worse, Nintendo has become much like other companies in it's market within this console cycle.

 

[7NATOR]

I think Nintendo find it more beneficial to just make a new game then make more DLC. Nintendo has the resources to just keep pumping out new games for their franchises, and New games end up selling much better than DLC anyways

We also see with Splatoon that they willing to have Multiple games of the same franchise on the Same console. Same thing with BOTW2, and likely the same with Mario Kart 9 (which isn't confirmed). I wouldn't be surprised if Smash is in the same boat

 

[Shroob]

So first off, I can prove you wrong about a lack of first party characters. Obviously, the easy way out is to just shill your new **** into Smash, but I'm not just going to take that route.

Here is a list of first party characters a friend of mine and I came up with in about ten minutes that barely touches anything close to shill and has request behind them.

• Waluigi
• Captain Toad/Toad
• Bandanna Waddle Dee
• Dixie Kong
• Isaac

And now that I've completed your part of the list that we also came up with in about five seconds, here is what was added by the two of us.

• Krystal
• Skull Kid
• Porky
• Paper Mario
• Elma
• Impa
• Midna
• Magalor
• Adeleine & Ribbon
• Marx
• Cranky Kong
• Funky Kong
• Chorus Kids/Karate Joe
• Ashley
• Mach Rider
• Ninten
• Lyn
• Chibi-Robo
• Mike Jones

And once again, this is all without really touching clear promotional ** like Sylux, Ring Fit Trainer, a current/next gen Pokemon or any number of popular older Pokemon or some crazy ** like Musashi from Sushi Striker and we stopped about there and got distracted to a new topic. Clearly, the well for first party hasn't run dry just yet. Keep in mind that much like Inklings and Splatoon, a new IP could come out this year or just a new game in an existing franchise and introduce something we all want in Smash, thus giving even more opportunities that straddle the line between corporate greed and fan demand.

I think this next part may address NonSpecificGuy as well. Now let's take a hypothetical here: let's say that the next two characters in Pass 2 are both third party and that any Pass after that would have to be the same, with two first party and 4 third party. From just your list from your comment, you have enough for two more passes, and let's not even touch on mine nor the prospects of promotional picks or wild cards.

There are plenty of third party fish in the sea to toss in for these hypothetical four slots per pass. Do you see how easy it would be for Nintendo to keep doing this? All they would have to do is make sure that the characters they pick turn enough profit for themselves, which when you factor in the savings on less resources to spend on and how so many people buy up a new pass before a single character is revealed (let alone a big first reveal [Joker] or just a big reveal in general [Steve]) you can see how the practice is designed to make enough money to cover any fees and then some. Thus, when you add in first party characters that people want or that capitalize on marketing very well, that money goes directly to them and helps out even more.

If Nintendo, the richest Japanese company wanted to, they could just port the game over to the next console and keep supporting it even past the Switch if they wanted to. Using my very-recently corrected example of Tekken 7, that game has been supported since before it ever hit consoles. That game is now over six years old and JUST GOT DLC TWO MONTHS AGO. Upgraded versions of consoles and three brand new consoles have launched since that game came out and they STILL haven't dropped it yet! What is this talk about Smash not even being three years old and already seeing the signs of aging and death? Sure, eventually it will stop, but the Switch has just hit the middle of it's life cycle. If they don't port the game or release a deluxe version, they can easily give Smash another pass or two before calling it a wrap.

Also, the assumption being made here is that an upgraded Switch won't extend the lifecycle at all, or that a massively-upgraded Switch isn't the actual future, which I will admit are fair assumptions. However, this also doesn't take in the fact that this is likely the last opportunity for Smash to have this kind of potential and the drive and push behind to keep it going, the crazy amount of money they have made off this DLC and how this is success Nintendo hasn't really had in this area before and the interest to continue it.



They didn't use to, but with this new level of success, I'm not sure you can use that as a flawless point of discussion anymore. Remember, for both better and worse, Nintendo has become much like other companies in it's market within this console cycle.

No offense, but that list is only proving my point.

A lot of those characters feel prime for base game inclusion, not paid DLC. When you're digging up Mike Jones of all characters, a game that never even came out in Japan and is basically a game Nintendo barely acknowledges existing, that's literal bottom of the barrel.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

It's not just that, but the "only 3H/Gen 8 could possibly get DLC reps, every other first party is ****ed" mindset. I could clearly see the rules being shifted so first-party gatekeeping could still be a thing.

Huh that's weird, you seem to have forgotten why 3H was deemed likely unlike others. It didn't get a Spirit Event, Astral Chain got discussed quite a bit back then because that didn't have it's Spirit Event then either until like a week before Byleth's announcement. I also like how you call this first party gatekeeping when Resident Evil never gets talked about anymore because of the Spirit Event despite constant discussion it got prior to that

 

[DarthEnderX]

I do not appreciate my most wanted being called “bottom of the barrel”.

Turn the barrel upside down.

 

[N3ON]

They didn't use to, but with this new level of success, I'm not sure you can use that as a flawless point of discussion anymore. Remember, for both better and worse, Nintendo has become much like other companies in it's market within this console cycle.

I didn't say it was a flawless point, I said it's something to keep in mind. Your reference point is a Namco game and my reference point is a different Nintendo game also conducive to additional content and I'm just saying remember who is who. Your point isn't flawless either.

Nintendo takes baby steps to embrace other industry trends but in many ways they still very much stay the uncompromising, idiosyncratic, frustrating company they've always been, and as long as that holds, using other companies as a basis of comparison will remain a tenuous argument.

 

[Shroob]

Maybe it's foolish of me to say this, but I've always just looked at Nintendo as an enigma that does things you don't expect, for better or worse.


"BotW was a huge Switch title, will Odyssey also get DLC?" "No chance."

"Mario Kart 8 Deluxe is selling like crazy! Will there be DLC due its blowout success?" "No."

"Splatoon 3 will be on the Switch's successor?" "No, same system, cannibalizing 2's playerbase."

"Mario Party will have online?" "Yes.... a year later."



Pointing fingers at other companies and saying "Well, they do this so surely Nintendo will do that!" is just, kinda laughable to me as someone who's watched them dance to the beat of their own drum for years now, crappy online services and all.

 

[ForsakenM]

I think Nintendo find it more beneficial to just make a new game then make more DLC. Nintendo has the resources to just keep pumping out new games for their franchises, and New games end up selling much better than DLC anyways

We also see with Splatoon that they willing to have Multiple games of the same franchise on the Same console. Same thing with BOTW2, and likely the same with Mario Kart 9 (which isn't confirmed). I wouldn't be surprised if Smash is in the same boat

Someone hasn't been paying attention to how much money companies make from DLC and micro-transactions, or you would know that these things make WAAAAAAAY more money than games themselves.

No offense, but that list is only proving my point.

A lot of those characters feel prime for base game inclusion, not paid DLC. When you're digging up Mike Jones of all characters, a game that never even came out in Japan and is basically a game Nintendo barely acknowledges existing, that's literal bottom of the barrel.

I like how you pick out Mike Jones out of 20+ choices, ignore the fact that these characters would make money in DLC by saying 'they feel like base game characters', and don't even address what I said about shilling or new games/new IPs and then say 'Yeah, bottom of the barrel' in the face of the most requested Mario rep, most requested Zelda rep, most requested Kirby rep, most requested Mother rep, most requested Star Fox rep, most requested DK rep, and characters that have had lots of requests that also fall into these big franchises or others.

Clearly, 'bottom of the barrel' means different things for us, because you somehow think that list compares with Style Savvy.

Also, please stop suggesting that someone who thinks more DLC is happening is immediately calling Sakurai a liar...despite the fact he's gone back on things he's said multiple times. I would never say that. If you expand your thought processing, you can clearly see that we still have two more characters coming and that when Steve was revealed we had three. That is multiple months of time, plenty of time for the numbers for Steve to show up and for Furakawa to fall off his chair when he saw them.

It's completely possible that something Sakurai said in the past was true then, but situations changed upon review, and now things are different. In addition to this, Sakurai could still give the same language or similar to it up until more DLC gets announced due to the fact that it would have a scheduled time to be revealed and he has to avoid breaking NDA.

Also, not everyone I debate with is a pessimist, but many of the people I've encountered here on this forum definitely side with assuming the worst over the best or even just being a realist. For an example, I would say that NonSpecificGuy is a realist since he's looking at the typical life expectancy of a Nintendo console and using that as a frame of reference, and even suggests that he could be wrong and isn't discarding anything without proper address, nor gives off any sensation of being convinced it won't happen. However, when you yourself flat out say that you are expecting the end while ignoring signs of more DLC and tossing away others, I can't help but see that as trying to make things align with a pessimistic viewpoint. You can want something and still convince yourself it won't happen and thus only see what you allow yourself to.

If you want to say that I'm too positive about this whole thing I'll wear that with pride, but I consider myself a realist that just has more hope than most and prefers to be upbeat than not. You should hear me in my outside discussions, my friends often ride my ass for being too negative. I'll admit when I'm wrong, and I'll straight up say that I could easily be incorrect and the DLC could just end this year and that will be all she wrote until five years from now when we have a roster of only twenty characters. However, the information I've gathered leads me to be very confidant in my stance, something I normally am not...whether you believe that to be the case or not.

Also, you are kinda just wrong about Sephiroth and Pyra/Mythra there, but if you don't know that's probably for the best. Privacy is policy and honestly, it's hard to really give credit, so it would be better if they came back mmm...richer.

I didn't say it was a flawless point, I said it's something to keep in mind. Your reference point is a Namco game and my reference point is a different Nintendo game also conducive to additional content and I'm just saying remember who is who. Your point isn't flawless either.

Nintendo takes baby steps to embrace other industry trends but in many ways they still very much stay the uncompromising, idiosyncratic, frustrating company they've always been, and as long as that holds, using other companies as a basis of comparison will remain a tenuous argument.

My reference point is the beginning of success of extensive DLC for companies of that nature of games, with a long line of similar practices following it. You are right that it isn't the same company and that Nintendo does their own thing a lot, but being quirky can't hold up as an argument forever, especially as Nintendo becomes more and more Fortune 500 in behavior more rapidly...but hopefully not as in BHVR.

Also, I find it funny how Namco has this practice, and Namco is helping with development of Ultimate. Huh, that happened with Smash 4 as well, and that got DLC too...maybe Namco is rubbing off on them in a good way? Just something interesting to think about I suppose.

Maybe it's foolish of me to say this, but I've always just looked at Nintendo as an enigma that does things you don't expect, for better or worse.


"BotW was a huge Switch title, will Odyssey also get DLC?" "No chance."

"Mario Kart 8 Deluxe is selling like crazy! Will there be DLC due its blowout success?" "No."

"Splatoon 3 will be on the Switch's successor?" "No, same system, cannibalizing 2's playerbase."

"Mario Party will have online?" "Yes.... a year later."



Pointing fingers at other companies and saying "Well, they do this so surely Nintendo will do that!" is just, kinda laughable to me as someone who's watched them dance to the beat of their own drum for years now, crappy online services and all.

Plot Twist: Splatoon 3 is exclusive to the "New" Nintendo Switch! Thus it doesn't technically crush Splatoon 2's play base despite being an unsupported game already, or at least not as fast since people will have to buy both the game and the new console to play. Kinda like Brawl or Melee, but much closer in relation.

I'm very happy about that upgrade to Super Mario Party btw.

 

[Shroob]

I like how you pick out Mike Jones out of 20+ choices, ignore the fact that these characters would make money in DLC by saying 'they feel like base game characters', and don't even address what I said about shilling or new games/new IPs and then say 'Yeah, bottom of the barrel' in the face of the most requested Mario rep, most requested Zelda rep, most requested Kirby rep, most requested Mother rep, most requested Star Fox rep, most requested DK rep, and characters that have had lots of requests that also fall into these big franchises or others.

Clearly, 'bottom of the barrel' means different things for us, because you somehow think that list compares with Style Savvy.

Also, please stop suggesting that someone who thinks more DLC is happening is immediately calling Sakurai a liar...despite the fact he's gone back on things he's said multiple times. I would never say that. If you expand your thought processing, you can clearly see that we still have two more characters coming and that when Steve was revealed we had three. That is multiple months of time, plenty of time for the numbers for Steve to show up and for Furakawa to fall off his chair when he saw them.

It's completely possible that something Sakurai said in the past was true then, but situations changed upon review, and now things are different. In addition to this, Sakurai could still give the same language or similar to it up until more DLC gets announced due to the fact that it would have a scheduled time to be revealed and he has to avoid breaking NDA.

Also, not everyone I debate with is a pessimist, but many of the people I've encountered here on this forum definitely side with assuming the worst over the best or even just being a realist. For an example, I would say that NonSpecificGuy is a realist since he's looking at the typical life expectancy of a Nintendo console and using that as a frame of reference, and even suggests that he could be wrong and isn't discarding anything without proper address, nor gives off any sensation of being convinced it won't happen. However, when you yourself flat out say that you are expecting the end while ignoring signs of more DLC and tossing away others, I can't help but see that as trying to make things align with a pessimistic viewpoint. You can want something and still convince yourself it won't happen and thus only see what you allow yourself to.

If you want to say that I'm too positive about this whole thing I'll wear that with pride, but I consider myself a realist that just has more hope than most and prefers to be upbeat than not. You should hear me in my outside discussions, my friends often ride my ass for being too negative. I'll admit when I'm wrong, and I'll straight up say that I could easily be incorrect and the DLC could just end this year and that will be all she wrote until five years from now when we have a roster of only twenty characters. However, the information I've gathered leads me to be very confidant in my stance, something I normally am not...whether you believe that to be the case or not.

Also, you are kinda just wrong about Sephiroth and Pyra/Mythra there, but if you don't know that's probably for the best. Privacy is policy and honestly, it's hard to really give credit, so it would be better if they came back mmm...richer.

Except I didn't call all those characters bottom of the barrel. I said they'd be sooner better off as base game characters. You can't look at the current selection of DLC characters and say that there's not a trend of 1st party characters being tied to the hip of Switch games. The only exception of that is Plant, and Plant is basically treated as a bonus character, even going so far as to be given perks that base game characters exclusively have.


However, no, a handful of those characters are bottom of the barrel. Mike Jones, Chibi Robo, Ninten? Those are bottom of the barrel choices, and I say this as a Mother fan that marketing Ninten as a standalone character is targeting a very niche market, especially since he could work as a Ness Echo very easily. Chibi Robo's a series which Nintendo basically said "It dies if you don't buy this game", and Mike Jones? Yeah, I've said enough on Mike. I loved Startropics 2, but he's as obscure and forgotten as you could get, and speaking of, would anyone seriously consider Mach Rider were it not for Sakurai's Melee statement? I know damn well Grinch probably wouldn't have included Mach Rider on the mural had Sakurai never brought up Mach before in the past.


And please, spare me the Fatman ****. I do not wanna hear about Fatman and his magical sources that know everything but only get obvious info right, like Gen 4 remakes that everyone knew were coming.

 

[Guynamednelson]

You can't look at the current selection of DLC characters and say that there's not a trend of 1st party characters being tied to the hip of Switch games

Well you don't want to look at the trend of hype declining near the end of character reveals each and every time, so...

 

[Shroob]

Well you don't want to look at the trend of hype declining near the end of character reveals each and every time, so...

I already said that CP11 could very well end on a wet fart, like, you can find it p.easily.


But the next character is E3, and hype is also entirely subjective as a term. I liked Pyra/Myhtra, but I didn't go crazy for them, meanwhile, Japan had a hype explosion.

 

[Guynamednelson]

and hype is also entirely subjective as a term

Exactly, which means that the E3 reveal could be "hype", but leaning more towards the hype of , rather than .

 

[ForsakenM]

Except I didn't call all those characters bottom of the barrel. I said they'd be sooner better off as base game characters. You can't look at the current selection of DLC characters and say that there's not a trend of 1st party characters being tied to the hip of Switch games. The only exception of that is Plant, and Plant is basically treated as a bonus character, even going so far as to be given perks that base game characters exclusively have.


However, no, a handful of those characters are bottom of the barrel. Mike Jones, Chibi Robo, Ninten? Those are bottom of the barrel choices, and I say this as a Mother fan that marketing Ninten as a standalone character is targeting a very niche market, especially since he could work as a Ness Echo very easily. Chibi Robo's a series which Nintendo basically said "It dies if you don't buy this game", and Mike Jones? Yeah, I've said enough on Mike. I loved Startropics 2, but he's as obscure and forgotten as you could get, and speaking of, would anyone seriously consider Mach Rider were it not for Sakurai's Melee statement? I know damn well Grinch probably wouldn't have included Mach Rider on the mural had Sakurai never brought up Mach before in the past.


And please, spare me the Fatman ****. I do not wanna hear about Fatman and his magical sources that know everything but only get obvious info right, like Gen 4 remakes that everyone knew were coming.

Had nothing to do with The Janinator, but I find the immediate assumption hilarious. Let me guess: "He's a Geno fan who got along with that other cursed spawn of a Geno fan, so whenever he references anything about leaks it HAS to be about that guy. He clearly never talks to anyone else ever, that loser Geno fan."

Maybe one day you will realize that I barely talk to the guy now that he got bushwhacked, or other things he's gotten right, not that it matters as I'm pretty sure he never kept score. Even if he did I don't and I'm sure he lost he notes when he left this place to get a bigger desk in life than 'Leader Of A Smash Illuminati.'

Also, 'better off as base characters' is an opinion just as much as 'bottom of the barrel' is. They could just as easily make tons of money being DLC. They could also be base game, but in an Ultimate Deluxe for the "New" Nintendo Switch! That was something I forgot to respond to 7NATOR with, the fact that a 'new' game for the same console is entirely possible via this possibility and as much as I would hate how anti-consumer that is it would still be better than nothing until the next full-on sequel were the cuts are inevitable.

Exactly, which means that the E3 reveal could be "hype", but leaning more towards the hype of , rather than .

I hope for the former, because if so that could mean despite the fact that I feel they are holding onto more of the latter in terms of hype reveals that have broader appeal and that I think my boi has to wait until the next batch of content.

 

[Shroob]

Exactly, which means that the E3 reveal could be "hype", but leaning more towards the hype of , rather than .

I mean, truth be told I found the first 2 characters way more "hype" than the last two.


Partly because the first 2 have 2 characters I wanted forever, while the latter only has Megaman that I cared about. Street Fighter isn't a series I personally enjoy, and Ryu had been leaked for 2 months up to that point.


That's the thing about hype. It's different for everyone. You really can't measure it accurrately, since different people will have different opinions on characters. We could get idk Master Chief next, and I guarantee you there'd be a handful of people, here especially, who would find him boring or uninteresting.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I mean, truth be told I found the first 2 characters way more "hype" than the last two.


Partly because the first 2 have 2 characters I wanted forever, while the latter only has Megaman that I cared about. Street Fighter isn't a series I personally enjoy, and Ryu had been leaked for 2 months up to that point.


That's the thing about hype. It's different for everyone. You really can't measure it accurrately, since different people will have different opinions on characters. We could get idk Master Chief next, and I guarantee you there'd be a handful of people, here especially, who would find him boring or uninteresting.

That's kind of why I'd rather say "they spend their money early and do cheaper reveals later", because of the subjectivity of hype like you say. Terry would've costed far less than Joker just because of recent SNK games selling less than Persona 5, and he was more hype for me than Joker.

 

[Shroob]

That's kind of why I'd rather say "they spend their money early and do cheaper reveals later", because of the subjectivity of hype like you say. Terry would've costed far less than Joker just because of SNK games selling less than Persona 5, and he was more hype for me than Joker.

But again, E3 is next, so I don't expect a low character there. 11? Sure, it could happen, but Nintendo has handled Ultimate's E3s incredibly well. Everyone is here+RIdley and a double appeal to East and West at 2019 were both brilliant marketing, and 2021 I don't think to expect anything different.

Had nothing to do with The Janinator, but I find the immediate assumption hilarious. Let me guess: "He's a Geno fan who got along with that other cursed spawn of a Geno fan, so whenever he references anything about leaks it HAS to be about that guy. He clearly never talks to anyone else ever, that loser Geno fan."

Maybe one day you will realize that I barely talk to the guy now that he got bushwhacked, or other things he's gotten right, not that it matters as I'm pretty sure he never kept score. Even if he did I don't and I'm sure he lost he notes when he left this place to get a bigger desk in life than 'Leader Of A Smash Illuminati.'

Also, 'better off as base characters' is an opinion just as much as 'bottom of the barrel' is. They could just as easily make tons of money being DLC. They could also be base game, but in an Ultimate Deluxe for the "New" Nintendo Switch! That was something I forgot to respond to 7NATOR with, the fact that a 'new' game for the same console is entirely possible via this possibility and as much as I would hate how anti-consumer that is it would still be better than nothing until the next full-on sequel were the cuts are inevitable.



I hope for the former, because if so that could mean despite the fact that I feel they are holding onto more of the latter in terms of hype reveals that have broader appeal and that I think my boi has to wait until the next batch of content.

You being a Geno fan has nothing to do with it.


You parroting the exact same characters that he had been forever in the Geno thread earlier today while claiming to have evidence has everything to do with it.


I like the folks over in the Geno thread, they're good people, but when I see you posting over there calling the rest of the fanbase a "hivemind" and I quote:

Don't let the hivemind keep you down guys.

Consider me skeptical of the genuine nature of your character.

 

[7NATOR]

Someone hasn't been paying attention to how much money companies make from DLC and micro-transactions, or you would know that these things make WAAAAAAAY more money than games themselves.



I like how you pick out Mike Jones out of 20+ choices, ignore the fact that these characters would make money in DLC by saying 'they feel like base game characters', and don't even address what I said about shilling or new games/new IPs and then say 'Yeah, bottom of the barrel' in the face of the most requested Mario rep, most requested Zelda rep, most requested Kirby rep, most requested Mother rep, most requested Star Fox rep, most requested DK rep, and characters that have had lots of requests that also fall into these big franchises or others.

Clearly, 'bottom of the barrel' means different things for us, because you somehow think that list compares with Style Savvy.

Also, please stop suggesting that someone who thinks more DLC is happening is immediately calling Sakurai a liar...despite the fact he's gone back on things he's said multiple times. I would never say that. If you expand your thought processing, you can clearly see that we still have two more characters coming and that when Steve was revealed we had three. That is multiple months of time, plenty of time for the numbers for Steve to show up and for Furakawa to fall off his chair when he saw them.

It's completely possible that something Sakurai said in the past was true then, but situations changed upon review, and now things are different. In addition to this, Sakurai could still give the same language or similar to it up until more DLC gets announced due to the fact that it would have a scheduled time to be revealed and he has to avoid breaking NDA.

Also, not everyone I debate with is a pessimist, but many of the people I've encountered here on this forum definitely side with assuming the worst over the best or even just being a realist. For an example, I would say that NonSpecificGuy is a realist since he's looking at the typical life expectancy of a Nintendo console and using that as a frame of reference, and even suggests that he could be wrong and isn't discarding anything without proper address, nor gives off any sensation of being convinced it won't happen. However, when you yourself flat out say that you are expecting the end while ignoring signs of more DLC and tossing away others, I can't help but see that as trying to make things align with a pessimistic viewpoint. You can want something and still convince yourself it won't happen and thus only see what you allow yourself to.

If you want to say that I'm too positive about this whole thing I'll wear that with pride, but I consider myself a realist that just has more hope than most and prefers to be upbeat than not. You should hear me in my outside discussions, my friends often ride my ass for being too negative. I'll admit when I'm wrong, and I'll straight up say that I could easily be incorrect and the DLC could just end this year and that will be all she wrote until five years from now when we have a roster of only twenty characters. However, the information I've gathered leads me to be very confidant in my stance, something I normally am not...whether you believe that to be the case or not.

Also, you are kinda just wrong about Sephiroth and Pyra/Mythra there, but if you don't know that's probably for the best. Privacy is policy and honestly, it's hard to really give credit, so it would be better if they came back mmm...richer.



My reference point is the beginning of success of extensive DLC for companies of that nature of games, with a long line of similar practices following it. You are right that it isn't the same company and that Nintendo does their own thing a lot, but being quirky can't hold up as an argument forever, especially as Nintendo becomes more and more Fortune 500 in behavior more rapidly...but hopefully not as in BHVR.

Also, I find it funny how Namco has this practice, and Namco is helping with development of Ultimate. Huh, that happened with Smash 4 as well, and that got DLC too...maybe Namco is rubbing off on them in a good way? Just something interesting to think about I suppose.



Plot Twist: Splatoon 3 is exclusive to the "New" Nintendo Switch! Thus it doesn't technically crush Splatoon 2's play base despite being an unsupported game already, or at least not as fast since people will have to buy both the game and the new console to play. Kinda like Brawl or Melee, but much closer in relation.

I'm very happy about that upgrade to Super Mario Party btw.

I doubt DLC or Microtransactions Makes as much money as the games themselves

DLC Not only costs less on a usual basis, but less people buy into DLC than the actual game. This would be especially true for Nintendo games, since Nintendo fans buy at Full Price, since Nintendo doesn't usually put it's games on sale

Same deal with Microtransactions. Call of Duty has microtransactions in it's games, but they still coming out with frequent new game releases because they know people like to buy the Latest game more than buy into Microtransactions. Same with sports games and such

Monster Hunter Iceborne only had about 30% of the sales of Monster Hunter World. That's good for DLC, but it doesn't compare to how much a New game would make

Obviously though DLC and Microtransactions don't cost as much resources as a new game to make, which is why while the New game is being prepared, DLC and Microtransactions create a steady flow of revenue. Fighting Games typically do this nowadays since Making a New game requires alot of work and budget that they might not have on deck after a New game just released, and even if they did, they probably don't have a Concrete project plan made for the New game anyway.

Nintendo is a much bigger Company with bigger resources than other Companies like Capcom, Arc System Works, Bandai Namco, etc, and Smash Ultimate itself sold 20 Million copies, which is much bigger than other Recent Fighting game sales, with NRS games coming the closet. Nintendo could afford to Make another Smash game, whether it be an Rebranded Ultimate, or entirely new. That's why I think they would lean towards that than a FP3. More Casual players would buy into a New Smash game, than a FP3, and a New Smash game could be used to sell a New Switch revision also (though I doubt it be exclusive to the platform)

One thing I will say is I heavily doubt that there are no plans for After FP2. Even if there's nothing in active development, there's likely a project plan of what's after Smash Ultimate Fighter Pass 2. this would especially be true if the Next Smash wants to have the 3rd party crossovers that people are gonna be expecting now, as it would be wise to start talks now so Nintendo could know for sure what characters they have permission to include and such

 

[Shroob]

I doubt DLC or Microtransactions Makes as much money as the games themselves

DLC Not only costs less on a usual basis, but less people buy into DLC than the actual game. This would be especially true for Nintendo games, since Nintendo fans buy at Full Price, since Nintendo doesn't usually put it's games on sale

Same deal with Microtransactions. Call of Duty has microtransactions in it's games, but they still coming out with frequent new game releases because they know people like to buy the Latest game more than buy into Microtransactions. Same with sports games and such

Monster Hunter Iceborne only had about 30% of the sales of Monster Hunter World. That's good for DLC, but it doesn't compare to how much a New game would make

Obviously though DLC and Microtransactions don't cost as much resources as a new game to make, which is why while the New game is being prepared, DLC and Microtransactions create a steady flow of revenue. Fighting Games typically do this nowadays since Making a New game requires alot of work and budget that they might not have on deck after a New game just released, and even if they did, they probably don't have a Concrete project plan made for the New game anyway.

Nintendo is a much bigger Company with bigger resources than other Companies like Capcom, Arc System Works, Bandai Namco, etc, and Smash Ultimate itself sold 20 Million copies, which is much bigger than other Recent Fighting game sales, with NRS games coming the closet. Nintendo could afford to Make another Smash game, whether it be an Rebranded Ultimate, or entirely new. That's why I think they would lean towards that than a FP3. More Casual players would buy into a New Smash game, than a FP3, and a New Smash game could be used to sell a New Switch revision also (though I doubt it be exclusive to the platform)

One thing I will say is I heavily doubt that there are no plans for After FP2. Even if there's nothing in active development, there's likely a project plan of what's after Smash Ultimate Fighter Pass 2. this would especially be true if the Next Smash wants to have the 3rd party crossovers that people are gonna be expecting now, as it would be wise to start talks now so Nintendo could know for sure what characters they have permission to include and such

I'd argue that stuff like gacha-**** if a game has it would 100% outsell the base-game's price, since you're not limited to one-time purchases and can keep buying indefinitely. That, or games with LUDICROUS amounts of DLC like alt costume packs or cosmetic packs.


But the Smash DLC has not outsold the base game in terms of sale, easily. Smash has sold 21? Million copies iirc, and I seriously doubt every single copy of the game bought both FP1+2.


DLC sells, but it doesn't outsell the base game, unless it has a ****load of DLC. Both Smash packs combined barely add up to the base game, and Miis I severally doubt are big enough to warrant.

 

[Guynamednelson]

But again, E3 is next, so I don't expect a low character there. 11? Sure, it could happen, but Nintendo has handled Ultimate's E3s incredibly well. Everyone is here+RIdley and a double appeal to East and West at 2019 were both brilliant marketing, and 2021 I don't think to expect anything different.

You have to remember WHY Ridley and Banjo were hype, then. It had nothing to do with them adding a new third party company+series to Smash, and not just because that would be impossible with Ridley.

 

[Shroob]

You have to remember WHY Ridley and Banjo were hype, then. It had nothing to do with them adding a new third party company+series to Smash, and not just because that would be impossible with Ridley.

They were hype due to who they were.

And whoever is cp10 is will generate hype.


I personally found Bayonetta boring as sin, but there are people everywhere who will gush about how amazing her inclusion was.


Hype is subjective, but E3 is when Nintendo whips out the big guns.

 

[Guynamednelson]

but E3 is when Nintendo whips out the big guns

But every single Ultimate reveal has only had two truly big guns, and we've already had two in FP2. You could see something similar with the Smash 4 DLC, where Cloud was not followed up by an even bigger third party. That's why you'll have to bet on a Ridley/Banjo type character if you expect hype to remain.

 

[Shroob]

But every single Ultimate reveal has only had two truly big guns, and we've already had two in FP2. You could see something similar with the Smash 4 DLC, where Cloud was not followed up by an even bigger third party. That's why you'll have to bet on a Ridley/Banjo type character if you expect hype to remain.

I mean, yeah, I kinda expect a solo reveal, but I don't see how that means anything.

Again, entirely subjective. I remember back when Shonobi leaked Banjo getting in and getting into fights with younger folks who thought Banjo was a lame cereal box mascot, and not the Microsoft character they wanted.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

But every single Ultimate reveal has only had two truly big guns, and we've already had two in FP2. You could see something similar with the Smash 4 DLC, where Cloud was not followed up by an even bigger third party. That's why you'll have to bet on a Ridley/Banjo type character if you expect hype to remain.

I know you only care about Nintendo ownership as seen by your constant dismissal of third party characters for only being wanted due to their ownership, but it's so funny that you argued that Ridley is a hype big gun but are now saying first parties can't be big guns in the same post

 

[ForsakenM]

I doubt DLC or Microtransactions Makes as much money as the games themselves

DLC Not only costs less on a usual basis, but less people buy into DLC than the actual game. This would be especially true for Nintendo games, since Nintendo fans buy at Full Price, since Nintendo doesn't usually put it's games on sale

Same deal with Microtransactions. Call of Duty has microtransactions in it's games, but they still coming out with frequent new game releases because they know people like to buy the Latest game more than buy into Microtransactions. Same with sports games and such

Monster Hunter Iceborne only had about 30% of the sales of Monster Hunter World. That's good for DLC, but it doesn't compare to how much a New game would make

Obviously though DLC and Microtransactions don't cost as much resources as a new game to make, which is why while the New game is being prepared, DLC and Microtransactions create a steady flow of revenue. Fighting Games typically do this nowadays since Making a New game requires alot of work and budget that they might not have on deck after a New game just released, and even if they did, they probably don't have a Concrete project plan made for the New game anyway.

Nintendo is a much bigger Company with bigger resources than other Companies like Capcom, Arc System Works, Bandai Namco, etc, and Smash Ultimate itself sold 20 Million copies, which is much bigger than other Recent Fighting game sales, with NRS games coming the closet. Nintendo could afford to Make another Smash game, whether it be an Rebranded Ultimate, or entirely new. That's why I think they would lean towards that than a FP3. More Casual players would buy into a New Smash game, than a FP3, and a New Smash game could be used to sell a New Switch revision also (though I doubt it be exclusive to the platform)

One thing I will say is I heavily doubt that there are no plans for After FP2. Even if there's nothing in active development, there's likely a project plan of what's after Smash Ultimate Fighter Pass 2. this would especially be true if the Next Smash wants to have the 3rd party crossovers that people are gonna be expecting now, as it would be wise to start talks now so Nintendo could know for sure what characters they have permission to include and such

You clearly haven't paid attention to companies like Ubisoft, Activision and EA. There's a reason why they have a pattern of making less game and including more micro-transactions wherever they can get away with it. Do a little Google search my friend and you will find out how game companies nowadays make most of their money via DLC. I mean, EA is the king of releasing almost the same sports game with almost no changes every year, but they have what is essentially a gacha game within these games that requires real money to get powerful athletes and they reset every year when the next game launches.

See, any informed person will tell you that, in the gaming industry, the $60 you pay for your game barely scratches anything in terms of the costs put into making the game just as fast as they will tell you that any new console that comes out is being sold at a large loss to the company. This is why products need to meet and exceed thresholds in general, so as to make a profit and not go broke. Now Ultimate is incredibly successful, and surely they made back and then some on the money spent on resources to create the base game, but facts are that DLC is much easier and less costly to make in a shorter amount of time.

Now, suppose they do exactly what people are suggesting here, and after the last two characters they wait until the next console comes out. What if that console is the next WiiU and fails, thus hurting the sales of the next Smash by default (don't forget that numbers show that Smash 4 WiiU sold poorly in comparison to other titles in the franchise, perhaps the worst)? Nintendo has been on this weird off-again-on-again with home consoles since the N64 did well and the Gamecube didn't originally, so it could happen. If they have to make all these cuts to the roster, flat out they will lose out in sales massively. Losing most or all of the third party picks will be a huge blow, especially since they brought in a huge number of players who would rather play Steve on their Switch. Considering how massive the success is, much like Melee and Brawl, Ultimate could end up being so big that it's successor is actually doomed to be a failure. What happens if the costs aren't covered or it barely makes a profit?

And Ultimate Deluxe solves all this by being able to keep the whole roster and just add to it while updating it just enough for the newer console, but it screws over all the original buyers since they paid for the DLC already, especially so if it's still within the Switch's lifetime. The PR from this would be yet another notch on the 'Nintendo is bad company now' belt and since it's a controversy over Ultimate, one of their biggest games, it could very well get out of hand.

Or they could just do more DLC, make more profit since more DLC that attracts players from outside the Smash circle sells more copies of the game (a la Steve) and costs much less in resources, and then when the time comes they just bite the bullet for the next Smash game, knowing it will never reach the heights of this one...but at least we made all the sweet DLC money while we did! They could also do what I just said AND somehow port it all over for the next console after the Switch and just add on then, or perhaps they just re-sell characters? You want to play as Snake in Super Smash Bros Universe? Well we had to renegotiate for him, so rather than him being in the base game he will cost ya $5.99. We'll give you his stage with him as a bundle, and don't worry we added nothing to him but graphical upgrades!

 

[osby]

"Big enough for E3" just became a circle jerk about which characters the most vocal old fans view worthy of their time at this point.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

The only bad thing about DLC ending after Fighter Pass 2 is that cuts are inevitable for the next Smash game.

"Big enough for E3" just became a circle jerk about which characters the most vocal old fans view worthy of their time at this point.

Watch as we get Ayumi as an E3 reveal.

 

[Commander_Alph]

"Big enough for E3" just became a circle jerk about which characters the most vocal old fans view worthy of their time at this point.

The closest thing that defined "Big enough for E3" is probably "Hurr durr big game only from a big company with big sales". I mean just accept that everytime you want to bring up a semi relevant character with a moderate sales you probably ended up talking about DMC or Dark Soul or smth.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

The problem with the perception of “bottom of the barrel” is that it’s far from a universal one. Someone like Ashley (if this Japanese poll is any indication) and Octolings (playable characters in a franchise insanely popular in Japan. No really, check out the sales being over 3 million there) are probably less likely to be seen as head-scratchers over in Japan.

 

[Among Waddle Dees]

A lot of those characters feel prime for base game inclusion, not paid DLC.

Sorry, but I don't think this is a good argument.

Not only did we get so few base game newcomers at launch, the only newcomer that received over half a year of speculation in this span was Inkling, who was in the first teaser trailer. Not even half a year after the reveal of Ridley was the paid DLC announced. Meanwhile, the DLC era has already reached a span of 2 years since Joker's release and already has added higher quantities of unique characters than the base game. Meaning everything post-launch outlasted the initial release window in terms of expectation.

If the logic that these characters are more inclined to be added to the base game worked, there wouldn't be as high a discrepancy between the 2 cycles. At face value, it'd probably be easier to say they never had a chance, rather than tease what could have happened before but didn't.