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Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

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Gengar84

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I’m not sure where this idea of limits on third party representation is coming from. I don’t think that really matters as much as a lot of people make it out to. Even if there was some kind of limit, Microsoft is at two characters while Sega, Capcom, Square-Enix, and Konami already have three. If anything, having characters already in Smash should make it easier to negotiate for more.
 
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Will

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The only issue I see with that is I’m not sure if there are any first party characters left that are hype enough for a solo E3 reveal.
Oh, believe me, we're really struggling to match the hype of Palutena here. Bar's reeealllll high. :4pacman: stop sleeping on pokemon
 
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I’m not sure where this idea of limits on third party representation is coming from. I don’t think that really matters as much as a lot of people make it out to. Even if there was some kind of limit, Microsoft is at two characters while Sega, Capcom, and Konami already have three. If anything, having characters already in Smash should make it easier to negotiate for more.
I guess the question is whether they would get so many in such a short timespan. Sega took 3 games to get its 3 characters. Capcom took 2 games, and Konami took 2 with a break in between.
 

Gengar84

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Oh, believe me, we're really struggling to match the hype of Palutena here. Bar's reeealllll high. :4pacman: stop sleeping on pokemon
Do you see my username? I’m definitely not sleeping on Pokémon. If I got one of my favorites, I would be excited I’m just getting bored with starters and Cinderace is currently the most popular choice.

There was also a Sword and Shield spirit event so a lot of people think that kills their chances. Despite being another gen 1 Pokémon, I legitimately think that Gengar would be one of the most hype first party characters and would likely get a mostly positive reception. Feel free to correct me if I’m way off there lol
 
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Thewafflemaker2000

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I think I may be alone in wanting another Rare character over Master Chief. Chief is cool and I have no issues with him getting in but I really love Rare and their characters have an actual history with Nintendo. Master Chief would definitely be a more hype character for the majority of people but I’ve been wanting Rare characters in Smash since before he existed lol.
I want battletoads! They be great as another Surprise retro rep
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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I guess the question is whether they would get so many in such a short timespan. Sega took 3 games to get its 3 characters. Capcom took 2 games, and Konami took 2 with a break in between.
Yeah. That's probably the main reason why people think that only Nintendo will get more than one character a pass.

Do you see my username? I’m definitely not sleeping on Pokémon. If I got one of my favorites, I would be excited I’m just getting bored with starters and Cinderace is currently the most popular choice.
While Cynderace is the most popular of the starters, I don't think he's a popular choice in general here. Non-starter picks like Garchomp, Metagross, or Mimikyu would probably be received better. Even starters like Blaziken would likely fare better since it's more classic, and going to older games for picks just doesn't happen unless you're from Kanto (which is understandable because aside from Jigglypuff, they're all pillars for good series representation).
 

DrifloonEmpire

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(which is understandable because aside from Jigglypuff, they're all pillars for good series representation).
Except Gen 1 wasn't the only successful part of the franchise and already by far the most repped Gen as is. People are also dead sick of Gen 1 with all of the shilling it's gotten from TCPi and Game Freak for the past three gens due to them still trying to coax the Genwunner crowd from the old days back in. Really, would anyone seriously choose something like Muk or Pidgey over Sceptile? And does anyone really want to see cute sparkle fox get in with an uncreative moveset due to pure marketing obligations?


Also, in other news I'm going to present another overlooked option that could come if the supposed bonus character really happens

Captain Charlie from the Pikmin franchise

Pikmin 3 Deluxe is both the best and fastest-selling Pikmin game and is introducing the franchise to lots of new people, thanks to the awesome Demo. He's considered the leader of the three captains in-game, so he'd likely be the one chosen of the three. With surprising amount of promotion 3 Deluxe got, along with the new Pikmin Niantic game and Pikmin's 20th anniversary this year, it seems like Nintendo wants to try and push the franchise (keep in mind, it's now outselling Nintendo's "rising Star" golden children like Xenoblade 2 as of last December, though we'll have to wait for Nintendo's quarterly report to see if Pyra and Mythra in Smash boosted 2's sales), and it has good reason for it. Furthermore, Charlie would make for a very easily-slottable character ala Piranha Plant, not needing to have an entire challenger pack centered around him. There's already a Pikmin 3 stage, music, and spirits, so he has everything he needs to feel at home!
 
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SMAASH! Puppy

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Except Gen 1 wasn't the only successful part of the franchise and already by far the most repped Gen as is. People are also dead sick of Gen 1 with all of the shilling it's gotten from TCPi and Game Freak for the past three gens due to them still trying to coax the Genwunner crowd from the old days back in. Really, would anyone seriously choose something like Muk or Pidgey over Sceptile? And does anyone really want to see cute sparkle fox get in with an uncreative moveset due to pure marketing obligations?
I'm not saying that they're the only ones that matter, but Pikachu, Charizard, the Pokémon Trainer, and Mewtwo are all particularly important Pokémon characters, and I'd say they're all must haves as a result. Comparing them to Pidgey and Muk is pretty disingenuous.

Eevee makes a bit more sense, but while it is a bit more important than the typical Pokémon, I wouldn't quite consider it a pilliar. It's very close since it does get more attention on average, but it's not quite there.

I think a better way of phrasing what I said though, was that it makes sense that they went back to Kanto since that's where the most important Pokémon to have come from. I would still like to see them go back for other Pokémon as well, but the ones they did bother to go back for make a ton of sense.
 

Gengar84

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I actually like both Pidgey and Muk and I don’t understand why they are both hated. Sometimes simple designs can be better. Muk would make for a really unique Smash fighter so I think it would be fun to see honestly. That being said, I like lots of Pokémon from every generation and I don’t really care what Gen they came from as much as whether I like the Pokémon itself.

I would really love to see Cofagrigus. It is tied with Gengar as my favorite Pokémon ever, followed closely by Golisopod and Orbeetle. Unfortunately, nobody else really seems to care about any of my other favorites so Gengar is the only one with a realistic chance of making it in Smash.
 
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SKX31

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(which is understandable because aside from Jigglypuff, they're all pillars for good series representation).
True. Jigglypuff is a pillar for amazing series representation instead.

I mean, its floaty nature and playstyle perfectly encapsulates Jigglypuff's frail nature... until it somehow hits you with Sing or a set up attack. And then takes a nap just to cap it all off. Said nap is also annoying to fight against in both Pokemon and Smash.

:4pacman:
 

Otoad64

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Eevee makes a bit more sense, but while it is a bit more important than the typical Pokémon, I wouldn't quite consider it a pilliar. It's very close since it does get more attention on average, but it's not quite there.
I mean, Eevee's basically the 2nd mascot after Pikachu at this point.
 

Wigglerman

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If we're getting a Gen1 rep again then for the love of God, gimme either Machamp or one of the Hitmons (Prefer Chan over Lee however. Hell, go with Top I don't care!). Get a 'real' fighting type up in here XD
 
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7NATOR

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View attachment 308600


Phil Spencer has teased upcoming announcement with background items. So far, most if not all of them have been spot on.
This guy pointed out at Switch at the background. So perhaps, stars are aligned.
Do you guys think it will happen during E3?
Personally, they probably are saving Master Chief for the Expanded version of Ultimate

I Imagine that instead of a Fighter Pass 3, Nintendo might see it more substantial to make some sort of Expanded version of Smash Ultimate for the New Switch Pro or Super Switch. if they are gonna make a Game like that, they are gonna need big characters, like Master Chief

Though I think they'll still have the characters available for the Regular Ultimate game, which could be a reason for the Added placeholder spots, but they add them through DLC

There's been negotiations talks that seemed to have happened, but not come to fruition in Ultimate. While some cases seem to be just a regular fall through, I Imagine that for certain reasons, Nintendo couldn't have added certain characters, like Chief, into Pass 2 or before, but could add them later

I think though Halo has to be on the Switch first, and this could be what the Switch is hinting at
 

Al-kīmiyā'

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It would be pretty scummy if Nintendo released a game with all the DLC included any time soon. I doubt that will happen.
 

Wigglerman

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It would be pretty scummy if Nintendo released a game with all the DLC included any time soon. I doubt that will happen.
I don't see it as 'scummy'. Many games do this as time goes on. Smash is the only one that hasn't yet. Mortal Kombat, Street Fighter, and so on tend to release an updated version for folks who haven't bought the game. To get the 'complete' version at that point. If, say, in a year they released a Smash Ultimate: Definitive edition that wouldn't surprise me at all. Nor would I find it all that scummy. Cuz I got to play with all that content for all this time. Money and time well spent for a game I love. Doesn't hurt my feelings that other people can hop on board with all the content for base game price.
 

Perkilator

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I don't see it as 'scummy'. Many games do this as time goes on. Smash is the only one that hasn't yet. Mortal Kombat, Street Fighter, and so on tend to release an updated version for folks who haven't bought the game. To get the 'complete' version at that point. If, say, in a year they released a Smash Ultimate: Definitive edition that wouldn't surprise me at all. Nor would I find it all that scummy. Cuz I got to play with all that content for all this time. Money and time well spent for a game I love. Doesn't hurt my feelings that other people can hop on board with all the content for base game price.
Plus, in Ultimate's case, it could properly integrate the DLC characters more into the base game.
 

Louie G.

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Chief may still have a shot if Nintendo and Sakurai count the Mojang AB copyright as Steve representing them instead of Microsoft.
That shouldn't really matter anyway, I still believe that the one-per-company quota is an assumption that could crumble any minute. The more thought you put behind the mentality that Steve from Minecraft would have any bearing on Master Chief from Halo from a character / audience / profit perspective the less it makes sense that Nintendo would arbitrarily limit themselves in such a way.

That is to say, if the stars align for Chief then Steve won't stop him. There are plenty of reasons why Master Chief may not make it in the end, I'm certainly not all-in on it myself but I think it's a decent possibility. I'm just not convinced his absence would have anything to do with whether or not Steve qualifies as a "Microsoft rep" when Steve and Master Chief offer such different things from one another.

Like I dunno, regulating the mascot of the biggest game in the world and the face of modern FPS to "Microsoft reps" just rids them of all of their significance as individual characters. At this point I don't think Nintendo is just penning in companies, they just want worthwhile characters and Microsoft definitely has another one available for them if they so choose to take it.
 
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7NATOR

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How? It gives more content to people who missed out on the DLC before or just flat-out didn't buy the game at all in the past.
I do see what he's saying though

People that bought into the game intially (20 million people+), along with the people that bought the DLC, would have to buy the game again to get the more definitive version, especially if it comes with New content

I think if Nintendo were to do this though, they might have exclusive content that might only be possible on the Super Switch or whatever, but the characters, the aspect people seem to care about the most, would also be DLC for Regular Ultimate, especially since there are gonna be alot of people that are gonna stay on the Regular Switch

I think in this case, it might be better than just doing a Pass 3. People that want the extra characters can get the Extra characters, but people that might want more content in other forms could also benefit, even if it does require a New console or something

the one thing I question is how it would hypothetically be priced. will Regular Smash Ultimate still be $60, when there's a version of the game that's better in everyway for the same price?
 

SharkLord

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Y'know, whenever "repeat" third-parties are discussed, it feels like the only one we ever talk about is Master Chief. Nothing for Squeenix, like 2B or Lara Croft. It feels like the breaking of the "no third-party repeats" stigma is just for the sake of discussing Master Chief while staying within the generally agreed-upon standards of the speculative scene. Maybe we should talk about some Squeenix characters again.
 

chocolatejr9

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Y'know, whenever "repeat" third-parties are discussed, it feels like the only one we ever talk about is Master Chief. Nothing for Squeenix, like 2B or Lara Croft. It feels like the breaking of the "no third-party repeats" stigma is just for the sake of discussing Master Chief while staying within the generally agreed-upon standards of the speculative scene. Maybe we should talk about some Squeenix characters again.
We haven't had that Balan Wonderworld Spirit Event yet...

He's in.
 

Technomage

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Y'know, whenever "repeat" third-parties are discussed, it feels like the only one we ever talk about is Master Chief. Nothing for Squeenix, like 2B or Lara Croft. It feels like the breaking of the "no third-party repeats" stigma is just for the sake of discussing Master Chief while staying within the generally agreed-upon standards of the speculative scene. Maybe we should talk about some Squeenix characters again.
Good point. I would be interested in seeing Squall, Lara, or 2B added to Smash.
 

Wigglerman

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My only hesitation for Squeenix is we just got Seph. So...they did get a repeat (Since Cloud was base Smash. Hero first pass). I just don't know if they'd get a threepeat in the same pass. Possible, sure. Would just be weird.
 
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SharkLord

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My only hesitation for Squeenix is we just got Seph. So...they did get a repeat (Since Cloud was base Smash. Hero first pass). I just don't know if they'd get a threepeat in the same pass. Possible, sure. Would just be weird.
To be fair, that's basically the same argument for Microsoft. Banjo in FP1, Steve in FP2. The only difference is that they didn't have any base-game content.
 

Technomage

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While we're on the topic of double and triple dipping for 3rd party DLCs, other companies that got DLCs in Ultimate are Sega and SNK. I know that Terry's inclusion and the stuff that came with him already represents pretty much all of SNK, but I think that they could still add more Metal Slug content (since that series only got a few song); which brings me to this: If SNK were to get another fighter, then I think it should be Marco, since not only would he have a unique fighting style, but it could give some much needed content for the series to be properly represented. Of course, Marco does use a knife as a melee weapon, so let's hear more of them "more anime swordies" jokes. :4pacman:

As for another SEGA rep, I'd love to see Eggman added (and with a moveset at least similar to the one Delzethin came up with). Though the Imperial from Etrian Odyssey 4/Nexus is my most wanted SEGA rep, I do not have any hope at all that that char would get in. Thus, Eggman's my next most wanted.
 
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Wigglerman

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To be fair, that's basically the same argument for Microsoft. Banjo in FP1, Steve in FP2. The only difference is that they didn't have any base-game content.
I agree. I think the double/triple down is on the higher end of the 'wishful thinking scale'. Not impossible just feels improbable. Lara feels like the only Squeenix rep I would get behind but it has little to do with the fact she's owned by Square and is a gaming icon in her own right. Long before Square absorbed her (Don't consider her a 'square' character in any regard, personally). Though I'm also on the same boat where I don't really count Steve or even Banjo as 'Microsoft reps'. Sure, owned by them now but weren't made great by their current owners.
 

Louie G.

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My only hesitation for Squeenix is we just got Seph. So...they did get a repeat (Since Cloud was base Smash. Hero first pass). I just don't know if they'd get a threepeat in the same pass. Possible, sure. Would just be weird.
It wouldn't really be that weird if there's another incentive to add someone totally different. I think the only reason it's weird is because we haven't seen it happen yet - that's fair I guess, but would it really be that outright jarring if the characters have nothing to do with one another?

I do, personally, think it'd be weird to get Crono after Hero, or Sora after Sephiroth. I don't think it would be particularly weird to see someone like Lara Croft get in alongside Sephiroth, seeing how they have practically nothing in common outside of their parent company. She's certainly got her own individual merits and typecasting them both as "reps" really undermines the significance of both characters in their own right.

I've never been fully convinced on Lara for whatever reason, but she's a good example of how a company has other options that remain distinct and worthwhile beyond what they've already got. Same thing for 2B, Master Chief for Microsoft like I mentioned before, and... probably unlikely, but SE owns Taito as well so if you really wanna go deeper you could go for some Bubble Bobble representation lmao. I'm not sure how likely any of these characters are individually, but if there's enough incentive to go for any one of them in their own right I don't think Sephiroth would provide much of an obstacle.

We're kinda beyond the point where it feels like Nintendo would add a character just to satisfy one of their partners or where it seems like Nintendo really cares about stretching out and making new connections. Back in FP1 this seemed to be more of a focus, but in FP2 when we're largely retreading old ground it doesn't seem like the priorities are in the same places anyway.
 
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SharkLord

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I agree. I think the double/triple down is on the higher end of the 'wishful thinking scale'. Not impossible just feels improbable. Lara feels like the only Squeenix rep I would get behind but it has little to do with the fact she's owned by Square and is a gaming icon in her own right. Long before Square absorbed her (Don't consider her a 'square' character in any regard, personally). Though I'm also on the same boat where I don't really count Steve or even Banjo as 'Microsoft reps'. Sure, owned by them now but weren't made great by their current owners.
The thing is, Nintendo still had to go to Microsoft to get the deals. It doesn't really matter who made them great or who they're associated with; It's about who Nintendo needs to negotiate with. They may have different origins, but Banjo and Steve are still Microsoft reps copyright-wise, and they'd be treated as such in the double-down speculation.

But yeah, I agree in that I'm not really feeling a double-dip in this pass. It's mostly a gut hunch, but it just doesn't feel like something that'll go through. I don't think it's impossible, but it just seems to me like Nintendo isn't focusing on one company above others, fighter-wise. Feels like one of those things the speculative scene gets really focused on, only for it to just not turn up.
 

Gengar84

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Y'know, whenever "repeat" third-parties are discussed, it feels like the only one we ever talk about is Master Chief. Nothing for Squeenix, like 2B or Lara Croft. It feels like the breaking of the "no third-party repeats" stigma is just for the sake of discussing Master Chief while staying within the generally agreed-upon standards of the speculative scene. Maybe we should talk about some Squeenix characters again.
Magus from Chrono Trigger is my personal most wanted character for Smash. I doubt he’d get in over Crono but I’d love it if he did. The same goes for Xemnas from Kingdom Hearts.
 

Wigglerman

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It wouldn't really be that weird if there's another incentive to add someone totally different. I think the only reason it's weird is because we haven't seen it happen yet - that's fair I guess, but would it really be that outright jarring if the characters have nothing to do with one another?

I do, personally, think it'd be weird to get Crono after Hero, or Sora after Sephiroth. I don't think it would be particularly weird to see someone like Lara Croft get in alongside Sephiroth, seeing how they have practically nothing in common outside of their parent company. She's certainly got her own individual merits and typecasting them both as "reps" really undermines the significance of both characters in their own right.

I've never been fully convinced on Lara for whatever reason, but she's a good example of how a company has other options that remain distinct and worthwhile beyond what they've already got. Same thing for 2B, Master Chief for Microsoft like I mentioned before, and... probably unlikely, but SE owns Taito as well so if you really wanna go deeper you could go for some Bubble Bobble representation lmao. I'm not sure how likely any of these characters are individually, but if there's enough incentive to go for any one of them in their own right I don't think Sephiroth would provide much of an obstacle.

We're kinda beyond the point where it feels like Nintendo would add a character just to satisfy one of their partners or where it seems like Nintendo really cares about stretching out and making new connections. Back in FP1 this seemed to be more of a focus, but in FP2 when we're largely retreading old ground it doesn't seem like the priorities are in the same places anyway.
Like I said, Lara is the one out of Squeenix' log I'd not have any issue in being the 'threepeat' since she's distinct from the rest of the reps. She's break Squeenix RPG character rep streak and add a new style. I suppose if a company is 'double/triple' dipped then as long as the characters are bringing something new to the table and stand apart then I'm more 'okay' with it. More about the character themselves than who they belong too overall.
 

epicmartin7

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HA HA. FINALLY. Figured out what my issue with my math stuff was. Turns out, Sephiroth gave my math equations despair. Yes, really.

IDK if I explained how my equations worked, so... here's a TL;DR dumbed down version.

1617826209699.png


I take one Fighter's RGB Background value, put that in the bottom, and then put the proceeding Fighter's value on the top. I then do that for every fighter in the game. I then take those values, and add all of them up. However, I don't just add them all up and call it a day. I... basically graph the evolution of the sum. This ensures two things:

1.) The next number will always be positive.
2.) It creates a trendline that I can then map to it to potentially predict the future sum. To which, I can then undo from there.

Now... this isn't some ground breaking thing nor proof we live in a simulation. This is just a trick, as there's technically no real mathematical relationship at all. I had to actually get the data in a form that could fit the trendline. Meaning there's still a decent margin of error... which brings me too... ahem...

SEPHIROTH... DU DU DU DUDUDU... SEPHIROTH

So... turns out... Sephiroth's RGB values... were pretty low. Usually, most values have about three digits in them. Most of Sephiroth's values were in the mid 60s and 70s afaik. This means that the next fighter (who would most likely be in the triple digits range, at least statistically), would make the next ratio big... and... spike the value up.

And well... that did happen. However, the Green value got hit the hardest. iirc, Sephiroth's green value was 50ish. While Pyra/Mythra's was 230. Which... 230/50... is yikes... big. This actually explains why the last predicted colors I did for Pyra/Mythra (before their reveal) were dark green. Believe it or not, R and B values were actually within an acceptable range... but the green value was too low. Very low.

If I would've known this quirk about Sephiroth at the time, I could probably done a trick where I calculated the colors for Fighter 82, but just interpreted that for Fighter 81.

Funny how Sephiroth messed things up. Still my favorite DLC this pass tho lol.

Of course, do note, these equations will not do you taxes, nor predict things 100%, but I just found this thing quite hilarious.

Although... this does mean I should be getting my proper math predictions out there soon! So stay tuned!
 
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SNEKeater

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A new Final Smash for Samus I just pictured could be a sequence of her doing the Screw Attack a few times, like this (imagine her rival being caught in the middle of the air)


but much faster, then she jumps in the air so she would be above the rival (similar to Lucario's FS) and finishes the job with a shot of Hyper Beam from Metroid Prime 3:

1617827116247.png


So it wouldn't be drastically different to her current FS because it involves her shooting a beam and all but with a few cool camera movements to make it more cinematic, her Screw Attack and her standing in the air, she would look more badass during the sequence.
And she being badass is IMO a part of the character, and unfortunately, you barely feel that while playing as her in Smash. Or at least that's what happens to me.
 

3BitSaurus

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HA HA. FINALLY. Figured out what my issue with my math stuff was. Turns out, Sephiroth gave my math equations despair. Yes, really.

IDK if I explained how my equations worked, so... here's a TL;DR dumbed down version.

I take one Fighter's RGB Background value, put that in the bottom, and then put the proceeding Fighter's value on the top. I then do that for every fighter in the game. I then take those values, and add all of them up. However, I don't just add them all up and call it a day. I... basically graph the evolution of the sum. This ensures two things:

1.) The next number will always be positive.
2.) It creates a trendline that I can then map to it to potentially predict the future sum. To which, I can then undo from there.

Now... this isn't some ground breaking thing nor proof we live in a simulation. This is just a trick, as there's technically no real mathematical relationship at all. I had to actually get the data in a form that could fit the trendline. Meaning there's still a decent margin of error... which brings me too... ahem...

SEPHIROTH... DU DU DU DUDUDU... SEPHIROTH

So... turns out... Sephiroth's RGB values... were pretty low. Usually, most values have about three digits in them. Most of Sephiroth's values were in the mid 60s and 70s afaik. This means that the next fighter (who would most likely be in the triple digits range, at least statistically), would make the next ratio big... and... spike the value up.

And well... that did happen. However, the Green value got hit the hardest. iirc, Sephiroth's green value was 50ish. While Pyra/Mythra's was 230. Which... 230/50... is yikes... big. This actually explains why the last predicted colors I did for Pyra/Mythra (before their reveal) were dark green. Believe it or not, R and B values were actually within an acceptable range... but the green value was too low. Very low.

If I would've known this quirk about Sephiroth at the time, I could probably done a trick where I calculated the colors for Fighter 82, but just interpreted that for Fighter 81.

Funny how Sephiroth messed things up. Still my favorite DLC this pass tho lol.

Of course, do note, these equations will not do you taxes, nor predict things 100%, but I just found this thing quite hilarious.

Although... this does mean I should be getting my proper math predictions out there soon! So stay tuned!
Oooh, interesting! I wonder how this will affect that salmon pink you showed us last time.
 

Knight Dude

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I see you're a MMX fan as well. It's very sad to me that X is just a part of MM's final smash, being so important as he is to the franchise (he was even bigger than classic MM during quite a long time). Of course, classic MM is the obvious pic for smash, but i think X could have been very cool and unique as a fighter, just like in Project X Zone games, Card Saga Wars and MvCI, so much potential.
We'll have to see if series like Mega Man and Sonic will get 2nd or 3rd characters at some point. Whether in this game or the next some odd years later.Most of the popular 3rd party series have a lot to offer. We only scratched the surface of Street Fighter and Final Fantasy as well.

Still, the characters in the game currently are pretty sick, so this is all bonus material really.

And yes, Mega Man X is pretty sick!
 
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epicmartin7

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Oooh, interesting! I wonder how this will affect that salmon pink you showed us last time.
that one used some archaic stuff tbh. I tried to manually predict the next trendline, but it just got too much and overcomplicated. so... i went back to the drawing board pretty much lol. so i wouldn't think about that one much personally
 
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