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Official DLC Character Discussion Thread - Read the new sticky/announcement

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Banette

Smash Cadet
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Oct 31, 2014
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On the topic of Zelda's so-called underrepresentation, why not see if we can see things from a different perspective? Points have been made about the characters included for the series (five characters repping a series in Smash is impressive, even if some sport movesets that are inaccurate/unoriginal, and the five characters chosen may not necessarily best represent the series as a whole), as well as the game's stages (two new Zelda stages in the 3DS version alone!) - the Zelda series is undeniably present in this game due to its sheer quantity of content.

As some have argued before however, 'a large amount of content' is not the same 'satisfactory representation' - 'a sense of completeness' if you want. The Zelda series being limited to three character 'archetypes' is often cited (Link, Sheik, and Zelda), but I think the music selection is another great example, and in hindsight, on of my biggest disappointments with Smash 4 as a whole.

For those wondering: The Legend of Zelda series features a whopping 28 pieces of music in Smash 4 (here's to hoping I didn't make any mistakes while counting) - six versions of the main theme of the series, three of Lorule/the Dark World, two of Gerudo Valley, and two of Ghirahim's theme. Furthermore even with such a grand number of songs, any game not called Ocarina of Time, is represented by one song (not necessarily one track) at best (a slight exaggeration as there's Twilight Princess as well), there's not a single decent dungeon remix, and not even a subtle nod to for example the Oracle games. Luckily we received a DLC stage that would make all right: with it came five more pieces of music that would hopefully better capture the series as a whole.

Who am I kidding: four of those five tracks were even more versions of the game's main theme, and the fifth track was a revamped version of the Hyrule Field Theme, which we had already. Well, at least we finally received a track from Majora's Mask I suppose (Termina Field)?

In conclusion, it would seem that the music selection for The Legend of Zelda series in Smash 4 is possibly even more 'clone gallore' than the characters representing the series. Just like how the character select screen seems to suggest that there is little more to the series than the bearers of the Triforce, the music selection provides the player with nothing but overworld themes (again, a slight overexaggeration, but a valid point nonetheless I believe).

I guess I am to end this post with expressing how I feel there is so much more to the series. Smash has brought us some marvelous remixes from the series' best music without a doubt, but that does not change how the game - even with its sheer quantity of Zelda content - provides nothing but a very limited view on The Legend of Zelda as a series. All in all I'm not at all surprised when people call The Legend of Zelda series underrepresented, and partly due to typing this post, I may just agree with them.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
TIERSR4QUEERS! *hits you with the Wiimote*

Though seriously, the lack of news is painfull.

And this is just the beggining of september.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
We actually do. Sakurai refers to clones as "model swap characters" and costumes as "palette swaps". Alph was meant to make the jump to actual clone like Dr. Mario, Dark Pit and Lucina did, but it was deemed nonviable for development. Olimar was hard enough to implement on the 3DS already, let alone making a clone of him.

Shameless plug here because I am a writer for Source Gaming and wrote an article about clones. Anyway, it's relevant to the discussion.

My article on clones:
http://www.sourcegaming.info/2015/08/01/smash-clones/

@Aeris's translation of Sakurai's planning on Olimar/Alph and clarification of terms:
http://www.sourcegaming.info/2015/07/29/plucky-little-guys-olimar-and-alph-in-smash-4/
I've seen the second article, which is why I'm stating what I'm stating.

It literally makes no sense for Alph to have been planned as a separate fighter "like Dr. Mario, Dark Pit, and Lucina".
The circumstances around them becoming separate were specifically due to them being given different properties while they functioned as costumes. In order for Alph to have made the jump from costume to clone, he would have needed to have had the different properties beforehand, which is not what is being implied in the article.
It's implying that Sakurai pre-planned splitting all four off and made the changes afterward or even the logic of "Hmm, I made Lucina, Dr. Mario, and Dark Pit separate, I might as well do the same with Alph..." coursing through his head and there just happening to not be enough time to do so, so he just left Alph as a costume.

It's that kind of implication that leads people to instantly make some unstated connection between "Alph was meant as clone" and"Olimar and Alph were going to have Rock Pikmin if it was possible" to mean "Alph was meant as clone using Rock Pikmin that Olimar doesn't use".
 

Frostwraith

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I've seen the second article, which is why I'm stating what I'm stating.

It literally makes no sense for Alph to have been planned as a separate fighter "like Dr. Mario, Dark Pit, and Lucina".
The circumstances around them becoming separate were specifically due to them being given different properties while they functioned as costumes. In order for Alph to have made the jump from costume to clone, he would have needed to have had the different properties beforehand, which is not what is being implied in the article.
It's implying that Sakurai pre-planned splitting all four off and made the changes afterward or even the logic of "Hmm, I made Lucina, Dr. Mario, and Dark Pit separate, I might as well do the same with Alph..." coursing through his head and there just happening to not be enough time to do so, so he just left Alph as a costume.

It's that kind of implication that leads people to instantly make some unstated connection between "Alph was meant as clone" and"Olimar and Alph were going to have Rock Pikmin if it was possible" to mean "Alph was meant as clone using Rock Pikmin that Olimar doesn't use".
Well, I never implied that Alph was meant to be a clone using Rock Pikmin. That's not true at all.

Rock Pikmin were meant to be part of Olimar/Alph's moveset and Alph was considered as a possibility for a clone character.

I think the logic is something like "make Dr. Mario, Dark Pit, Lucina and Alph clones if possible, but make them alts first so they're in the game anyway".

So, it's as you say: they were planned to be alts in the first place, with the idea of making them clones being a possibility, should it be a viable option during development.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Mewtwo should at least be the same weight as Rosalina.
That's.......actually a valid point.

Both Mewtwo and Rosalina have the same "constant state of levitation = lower knockback resistance (a.k.a. "weight")" concept, yet for some reason it affects Mewtwo quite a bit more than Rosalina. Whereas it didn't affect Mewtwo nearly as much in Melee.
 

Talpr1

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 14, 2015
Messages
369
On the topic of Zelda's so-called underrepresentation, why not see if we can see things from a different perspective? Points have been made about the characters included for the series (five characters repping a series in Smash is impressive, even if some sport movesets that are inaccurate/unoriginal, and the five characters chosen may not necessarily best represent the series as a whole), as well as the game's stages (two new Zelda stages in the 3DS version alone!) - the Zelda series is undeniably present in this game due to its sheer quantity of content.

As some have argued before however, 'a large amount of content' is not the same 'satisfactory representation' - 'a sense of completeness' if you want. The Zelda series being limited to three character 'archetypes' is often cited (Link, Sheik, and Zelda), but I think the music selection is another great example, and in hindsight, on of my biggest disappointments with Smash 4 as a whole.

For those wondering: The Legend of Zelda series features a whopping 28 pieces of music in Smash 4 (here's to hoping I didn't make any mistakes while counting) - six versions of the main theme of the series, three of Lorule/the Dark World, two of Gerudo Valley, and two of Ghirahim's theme. Furthermore even with such a grand number of songs, any game not called Ocarina of Time, is represented by one song (not necessarily one track) at best (a slight exaggeration as there's Twilight Princess as well), there's not a single decent dungeon remix, and not even a subtle nod to for example the Oracle games. Luckily we received a DLC stage that would make all right: with it came five more pieces of music that would hopefully better capture the series as a whole.

Who am I kidding: four of those five tracks were even more versions of the game's main theme, and the fifth track was a revamped version of the Hyrule Field Theme, which we had already. Well, at least we finally received a track from Majora's Mask I suppose (Termina Field)?

In conclusion, it would seem that the music selection for The Legend of Zelda series in Smash 4 is possibly even more 'clone gallore' than the characters representing the series. Just like how the character select screen seems to suggest that there is little more to the series than the bearers of the Triforce, the music selection provides the player with nothing but overworld themes (again, a slight overexaggeration, but a valid point nonetheless I believe).

I guess I am to end this post with expressing how I feel there is so much more to the series. Smash has brought us some marvelous remixes from the series' best music without a doubt, but that does not change how the game - even with its sheer quantity of Zelda content - provides nothing but a very limited view on The Legend of Zelda as a series. All in all I'm not at all surprised when people call The Legend of Zelda series underrepresented, and partly due to typing this post, I may just agree with them.
Wanna talk about how there are 7 remixes of Jungle Level? It almost seems that, according to Sakurai, David Wise hasn't composed anything else in his life.
 

Cutie Gwen

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That's.......actually a valid point.

Both Mewtwo and Rosalina have the same "constant state of levitation = lower knockback resistance (a.k.a. "weight")" concept, yet for some reason it affects Mewtwo quite a bit more than Rosalina. Whereas it didn't affect Mewtwo nearly as much in Melee.
It affects M2 more as his moves aren't as safe
 

BluePikmin11

Akko is my dear daughter!
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Top 10 of the Most Voted in the Individual Poll:

1. King K. Rool: 795
Yes: 507
No: 234
Indifferent: 54

2. Shantae: 609
Yes: 397
No: 170
Indifferent: 42

3. Wolf: 600
Yes: 490
No: 58
Indifferent: 52

4. Krystal: 501
Yes: 226
No: 214
Indifferent: 61

5. Bandanna Dee: 500
Yes: 285
No: 129
Indifferent: 86

6. Isaac: 467
Yes: 348
No: 55
Indifferent: 64

7. Daisy: 460
Yes: 270
No: 163
Indifferent: 27

8. Shovel Knight: 434
Yes: 181
No: 189
Indifferent: 64

9. Banjo & Kazooie: 424
Yes: 256
No: 120
Indifferent: 48

10. Balloon Fighter: 411
Yes: 120
No: 175
Indifferent: 116
 

Frostwraith

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Wanna talk about how there are 7 remixes of Jungle Level? It almost seems that, according to Sakurai, David Wise hasn't composed anything else in his life.
Sakurai has stated it's not just him that selects the music for the game, so I wouldn't put the blame entirely on Sakurai.

He does state he lets the music composers select tracks for the game and remix them according to their own tastes.
 

Banette

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 31, 2014
Messages
51
Wanna talk about how there are 7 remixes of Jungle Level? It almost seems that, according to Sakurai, David Wise hasn't composed anything else in his life.
That was going to be a topic for another time actually, but the difference with the Zelda tunes is that I actually like most of these remixes - a lame excuse, I know :urg: I do think we share the opinion that at some points selection of content in Smash 4, even under a perfectionist developer as mister Sakurai, leaves some things to be desired...
 

Ura

Smash Legend
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Messages
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I guess everyone in the game is balanced to the point where other than the top tier characters, everyone is relatively close to each other in terms of tier placement.

@GoldenYuiitusin I can't stop looking at your avi man.
 

Bradli Wartooth

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The top 7 of Blue's poll all sound great to me! I'm not necessarily an advocate of Shantae, but she has a strong history with Nintendo, so I'll ignore my bias. The rest of then I'm all for!
 

Zerp

Formerly "ZeroSoul"
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@ BluePikmin11 BluePikmin11 would you mind if I asked if you shared the polls on any other sites? I just can't seem to wrap my head around Shantae being second most voted on Smashboards alone, and I remember Azura's responses being particularly positive, so I'm guessing you shared with Reddit and Serenes Forest? And if so, am I missing any other sources?

Also, thanks for making those polls, this kind of info is very useful.

Edit: Basic grammar.
 
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Chandeelure

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Wolfie557

Witch-King of the North
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TIERSR4QUEERS! *hits you with the Wiimote*

Though seriously, the lack of news is painfull.

And this is just the beggining of september.
I'm addicted to character reveals. And no rehab will work for me. :D

I'm sharing it in everywhere in every gaming site people recommended me to go to.
VGCHARTS.
vgcavis.jpg

Seriously. :p
 

Twin Shot

Smash Journeyman
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Messages
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I would rather have clones of characters then no clones at all. They add more variety and fan-fare.

It's a win for us that they are even included at all.
 

DustyPumpkin

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I don't mind clone character at all
As long as they're at the least like :4lucina: where she has a the same moves but a different play-style on how to use those moves
take a godamn note on that :4darkpit:
 

Wolfie557

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I would rather have clones of characters then no clones at all. They add more variety and fan-fare.

It's a win for us that they are even included at all.
I'd still like certain ones to be less cloney than they are though, well, just Ganondorf & Dark Pit really.

Tink is the most perfect clone imo.

...

COGi4fXUcAAajSP.jpg

YOU'RE SO BEAUTIFULLLLL!!!!!!:love::love::love::love::woman::love::love:
 
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Zhadgon

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Top 10 of the Most Voted in the Individual Poll:

1. King K. Rool: 795
Yes: 507
No: 234
Indifferent: 54

2. Shantae: 609
Yes: 397
No: 170
Indifferent: 42

3. Wolf: 600
Yes: 490
No: 58
Indifferent: 52

4. Krystal: 501
Yes: 226
No: 214
Indifferent: 61

5. Bandanna Dee: 500
Yes: 285
No: 129
Indifferent: 86

6. Isaac: 467
Yes: 348
No: 55
Indifferent: 64

7. Daisy: 460
Yes: 270
No: 163
Indifferent: 27

8. Shovel Knight: 434
Yes: 181
No: 189
Indifferent: 64

9. Banjo & Kazooie: 424
Yes: 256
No: 120
Indifferent: 48

10. Balloon Fighter: 411
Yes: 120
No: 175
Indifferent: 116
Blue do you think you can make the top 10 in order but with the Yes result?

.n_n.
 

[Obnoxshush/Dasshizer]

Off floating somewhere
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Messages
5,209
Blue do you think you can make the top 10 in order but with the Yes result?

.n_n.
I already did it for him.

Top 10 of the Most Voted in the Individual Poll: (by # of yes votes)

1. King K. Rool:
Yes: 507
No: 234
Indifferent: 54

2. Wolf:
Yes: 490
No: 58
Indifferent: 52

3. Shantae:
Yes: 397
No: 170
Indifferent: 42


4. Isaac:
Yes: 348
No: 55
Indifferent: 64
5. Bandanna Dee:
Yes: 285
No: 129
Indifferent: 86

6. Daisy:

Yes: 270
No: 163
Indifferent: 27
7. Banjo & Kazooie:
Yes: 256
No: 120
Indifferent: 48

8. Krystal:

Yes: 226
No: 214
Indifferent: 61


9. Shovel Knight:
Yes: 181
No: 189
Indifferent: 64


10. Balloon Fighter:
Yes: 120
No: 175
Indifferent: 116
I arranged the order by most yes votes on the top for you.
Below I subtracted the no total from the yes total.


1. Wolf: 432

2. Isaac: 293

3. King K. Rool: 273

4. Shantae: 227
5. Bandanna Dee: 156

6. Banjo & Kazooie: 136
7. Daisy: 107


8. Krystal: 12

9. Shovel Knight: -8

10. Balloon Fighter: -55
 
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D

Deleted member

Guest
Well, I never implied that Alph was meant to be a clone using Rock Pikmin. That's not true at all.
Wasn't saying you did.
I'm just pointing out that's the common thought people get from reading the Olimar/Alph article.

Rock Pikmin were meant to be part of Olimar/Alph's moveset and Alph was considered as a possibility for a clone character.

I think the logic is something like "make Dr. Mario, Dark Pit, Lucina and Alph clones if possible, but make them alts first so they're in the game anyway".

So, it's as you say: they were planned to be alts in the first place, with the idea of making them clones being a possibility, should it be a viable option during development.
That goes heavily against what Sakurai has said before in regards to the clone trio and how new characters were decided (though Dr. Mario less so, since he isn't exactly "new").
I know people are quick to point out anything that can possibly be perceived as a contradiction, but the concept of planning ahead on making Dr. Mario, Dark Pit, Lucina, and Alph separate clones while making them costumes as a "just in case" would be THE BIGGEST possible contradiction Sakurai's ever made.

It affects M2 more as his moves aren't as safe
I'm talking in terms of knockback resistance. The two are given the same logic, yet Mewtwo has less knockback resistance than Rosalina instead of being equal or being closer to Melee.
 
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D

Deleted member

Guest
All these Goku from Yuyuki jokes are driving me mad. Mad Speed.

Can we stop talking about characters because their name is the same one as an anime character and instead because of their merit and moveset potential? I mean imagine if there was a Nintendo character named Jotaro who was from an One-Off, Japan-Only Snes game and i talked about him JUST because of him having the same name as Jotaro Kujo making a lot off stupid jokes along the way.

It's not funny guys, and if it was, it's no longer funny now./rant

Sorry if i sound aggresive, but it's just getting on my nerves.
 
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Wolfie557

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Main order is Rosa, ZSS, Palutena, DDD but colours look best this way imho.
fgyu.jpg

All the DLC characters have FAILED to join my 4.....
Once I 'main' a character they don't leave. When I try to get one mained I train and use the character the most for a loooong time but usually I can't be good enough or I realize I don't like thier style.

Ryu was the closest (out of dlc, out of all lucario) but I can't get used to his speed jumps and general feel.


Maybe the next DLC char will do it. huehuehue #Inkling #Bayonetta #KRool #Impa #Medusa. :p
 
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POKEMANSPIKA

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All these Goku from Yuyuki jokes are driving me mad. Mad Speed.

Can we stop talking about characters because their name is the same one as an anime character and instead because of their merit and moveset potential? I mean imagine if there was a Nintendo character named Jotaro who was from an One-Off, Japan-Only Snes game and i talked about him JUST because of him having the same name as Jotaro Kujo making a lot off stupid jokes along the way.

It's not funny guys, and if it was, it's no longer funny now./rant

Sorry if i sound aggresive, but it's just getting on my nerves.
But Mr. Speedwagon. That joke is my joke and is rightfully mine as the owner of the Goku from Yuyuki thread :grin:. But that's besides the point. In my thread, the only thing about Goku from DBZ is that I mention why its an argument against him. My support for him is solely off of that character and not DBZ and same with some other folks.
 

Alph Aran

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What do you all think about Brittany being added into this game as a playable character with a variation of Olimar's moveset? Do you think it would be a controversial move? Harmless?

This is not a call to vote for her, but merely speculation. I had some thoughts about her...

Pros:
  • Looks significantly different to Olimar compared to Alph
  • Interesting potential color palettes
  • Cutesy "chibi" character?
  • Could get certain different animations due to her personalty and gender warranting so?
  • Don't have to be known to be liked by more people compared to Olimar, I think
Cons (Based on what I may gather from people online and probably my mindset if I wasn't interested at all):
  • Olimar's unpopularity online could mean something negative for Brittany
  • Why should Pikmin get the same number of fighters as Donkey Kong Country and Metroid? (If they don't get DLC fighters in the end themselves)
  • Low priority if considered at all
  • Possibly wouldn't do well as paid DLC compared to other DLC characters
  • General ideal that the fighter ballot shouldn't really give us a "clone" at all, no matter who it is.
Samus exists. Hell, the game mocks her Jab flaw too!
There were times when I seriously thought of voting for Samus from Super Smash Bros. Melee. :samusmelee: (Since they're never giving her the better weapon/suit upgrades for the sake of her games and having a stronger projectile user than who, :4link::4tlink:?)
I'm not even kidding.
Mewtwo is probably the worst character in the game.
I'm not ready to agree with that, yet. There were times when I almost lost to Mewtwo players in For Glory 1-on-1. I need professional help if I keep going into his up-smash. By the way, did we all forget about Mii Sword Fighter before the buffs, that probably only a few people and me seriously even tried out? Some people jokingly said it has its own bottom tier. That was before I defeated a common Captain Falcon player with it in Tourney mode.

:4miisword: Mii users represent!
 
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What do you all think about Brittany being added into this game as a playable character with a variation of Olimar's moveset? Do you think it would be a controversial move? Harmless?

This is not a call to vote for her, but merely speculation. I had some thoughts about her...

Pros:
  • Looks significantly different to Olimar compared to Alph
  • Interesting potential color palettes
  • Cutesy "chibi" character?
  • Could get certain different animations due to her personalty and gender warranting so?
  • Don't have to be known to be liked by more people compared to Olimar, I think
Cons (Based on what I may gather from people online and probably my mindset if I wasn't interested at all):
  • Olimar's unpopularity online could mean something negative for Brittany
  • Why should Pikmin get the same number of fighters as Donkey Kong Country and Metroid? (If they don't get DLC fighters in the end themselves)
  • Low priority if considered at all
  • Possibly wouldn't do well as paid DLC compared to other DLC characters
  • General ideal that the fighter ballot shouldn't really give us a "clone" at all, no matter who it is.

There were times when I seriously thought of voting for Samus from Super Smash Bros. Melee. :samusmelee: (Since they're never giving her the better weapon/suit upgrades for the sake of her games and having a stronger projectile user than who, :4link::4tlink:?)
I'm not even kidding.

I'm not ready to agree with that, yet. There were times when I almost lost to Mewtwo players in For Glory 1-on-1. I need professional help if I keep going into his up-smash. By the way, did we all forget about Mii Sword Fighter before the buffs, that probably only a few people and me seriously even tried out? Some people jokingly said it has its own bottom tier. That was before I defeated a common Captain Falcon player with it in Tourney mode.

:4miisword: Mii users represent!
Louie > Charlie > Brittany.
Assuming she would be a clone she would be absurdly controversial on the basis of being a clone and not being alph.


Oh and why do you keep saying this
  • Olimar's unpopularity online could mean something negative for Brittany
You make it sound like people don't like Olimar when the general (not competitive who even then hates shiek and rosalina more) community loves the little guy. People like me were desperate for Pikin 3 for a reason
 
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Zhadgon

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Zhadgon
I already did it for him.


I arranged the order by most yes votes on the top for you.
Below I subtracted the no total from the yes total.


1. Wolf: 432

2. Isaac: 293

3. King K. Rool: 273

4. Shantae: 227
5. Bandanna Dee: 156

6. Banjo & Kazooie: 136
7. Daisy: 107


8. Krystal: 12

9. Shovel Knight: -8

10. Balloon Fighter: -55
Thanks.

.n_n.
 
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I can see Wonder-Red having a decent chance in the next smash game. :005:
Hello huge spoilers :p
decent chance in the next game?
Yeah I disagree. W101 bombed harder than Wonder Black. The chances of a sequel are not very good. By that logic when the next smash rolls around Red will be a has been. I believe right now, in the smash ballot ,is his only chance. . .and it isn't a great one.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
It's sad to see Wonder Red support so low. I hope one day he recovers.

And come to think he was a fairly speculated character at the beggining of Sm4sh speculation. I should get Wonderfull 101 someday.
 
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