Official DLC Character Discussion Thread - Read the new sticky/announcement

[Cutie Gwen]

Speaking of baby Pokemon, does anyone else feel that (most) baby Pokemon were unnecessary? Especially Pichu, Cleffa, Igglybuff and Azurill felt unnecessary, as their evolutions aren't very strong to begin with.



Gen 2 would like to have a word with you (unless you meant the whole series rather than just Smash 4).

I meant through all of Smash. Even then, Heracross plz

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I dunno what you guys are talking about. If the Pokémon has one pre-evolution, then it's a stage 2 Pokémon, baby or no baby.

I want every Pokémon veteran back. Squirtle and Ivysaur had some interesting concepts for their moves that never got to shine thanks to the Stamina and Type Advantages mechanic in Brawl, and Pichu would be a fun joke character. As for Pokémon Trainer himself, he could be brought back as someone who stands in the background for Pichu should they decide to buff him. Pokémon that are trained are stronger than wild ones, so it could add believability to the concept of Pichu coming back as an improved fighter while also bringing back the trainer, killing two birds with one stone.

I think the Pokémon Trainer should come back next smash. He will group Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard back together, but is pretty much a glorified random button. The only in-battle effects he will have is the ability to switch your Pokémon via taunting, or getting KOed, but the stamina mechanic will no longer be a problem, and the Pokémon Trainer will have his own victory animations (cuz why not?). If you select Squirtle, Ivysaur, or Charizard, switching will be impossible, and you can play as that Pokémon for the whole match.

I meant through all of Smash. Even then, Heracross plz

The only Generation 1 Pokémon I can think of off the top of my head that would work as a fighter would be Meowth and Gengar. (Well... I guess they could get creative with Bellsprout but why the heck would they do that?)

 

[Ura]

I think the Pokémon Trainer should come back next smash. He will group Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard back together, but is pretty much a glorified random button. The only in-battle effects he will have is the ability to switch your Pokémon via taunting

This was my idea as well for bringing back the PKMN trainer as well having Zelda/Sheik and Samus/Zamus as transformation characters in the next game without it affecting their movesets. This was also my idea of having YLink back like how he was in Melee only with the taunt buttons letting him use his 3 MM masks in addition to that. That way people won't be able to say that he's not unique or anything like that.

The only loss doing this is the above characters I mentioned losing a taunt from their moveset but that really shouldn't be a big problem. Just sacrificing each character's down taunt shouldn't be much of a problem.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

Actually, the first form of a Pokemon that are not babies (Charmander, Treecko, etc.), are known as the Basic form. The next evolution is Stage 1 and if there's another evolution, that would be Stage 2.

That means Pikachu is Basic and Grovyle is Stage 1.

Alright, but that is still similar to what I said. Lucario and Pikachu are basic where Riolu and Pichu are baby. Ivy, Grovyle, etc. are Stage 1.

 

[YoshiandToad]

The only Generation 1 Pokémon I can think of off the top of my head that would work as a fighter would be Meowth and Gengar. (Well... I guess they could get creative with Bellsprout but why the heck would they do that?)

Honestly I think most the Gen 1 Pokemon would work fine as Smashers;

looks set to prove his worth in Pokken for example alongside .

or could easily make for that fighting game staple who steals other people's moves to fight.

would work fine were it not for filling his niche as telekinetic glass cannon.

as you said would be a great speedy fighter.

obviously have fighting movesets based off real life fight styles. Mac fills Hitmonchan's niche a bit though.

would both work fine as bulky projectile characters with Venusaur not even needing much of a change from 's moveset.

Essentially Dillon; claws and spin attacks. Could also double as a cross between a Sonic style spinner and a heavy projectile character.

; come on this guy screams potential.

tl;dr: I think you're selling Gen 1 short in terms of abilities. It's just there's a lot of crossover.

 

[Putuk]

You guys are making me miss Ivysaur again.
Goddamnit.

 

[Burruni]

Yo.
You all can mock me all you want.

I'd LOVE to see this guy as a fighter.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Honestly I think most the Gen 1 Pokemon would work fine as Smashers;

looks set to prove his worth in Pokken for example alongside .

or could easily make for that fighting game staple who steals other people's moves to fight.

would work fine were it not for filling his niche as telekinetic glass cannon.

as you said would be a great speedy fighter.

obviously have fighting movesets based off real life fight styles. Mac fills Hitmonchan's niche a bit though.

would both work fine as bulky projectile characters with Venusaur not even needing much of a change from 's moveset.

Essentially Dillon; claws and spin attacks. Could also double as a cross between a Sonic style spinner and a heavy projectile character.

; come on this guy screams potential.

tl;dr: I think you're selling Gen 1 short in terms of abilities. It's just there's a lot of crossover.

Well I did say off the top of my head.
Though I don't see Hitmonchan doing anything that Little Mac can't. (Besides elemental punches that don't include fire.)

On another note, I worked out the percentages, and I don't see how we have too many Pokémon. The percentages are:
SSB (game): 16.67%
SSBM: 15.38%
SSBB: 15.38%
SSB4: 10.91%
SSB (series): 14.52%

The Pokémon series has never taken up more than one fourth of the roster in any game, or the series as a whole. I feel that this make the "overrepped" argument even more stupid because they aren't invading the roster. Not even close.

The same goes for the Mario franchise. As far as I am concerned, there are only six characters in the series. Sure Yoshi could be pegged as a Mario character, but with Yoshi, Yoshi's Cookie, Yoshi's Safari, Yoshi's Story, Yoshi Topsy Turvy, Yoshi Touch and Go, Yoshi's Island DS, and Yoshi's Wooly World under his belt, Yoshi qualifies to have his own series. (And that's not counting the games that centered around Yoshi, but has Mario in the title.) The same could be said about Donkey Kong, Diddy Kong, and Wario, but I don't feel like listing all the games in their respective series.

EDIT: @ Burruni Lickilicky would be pretty interesting. It even has an easy Final Smash in the move Hyper Beam.

 

[Deleted member]

#Heracross Master Race

Yeah i know he's a Gen 2 Pokemon but i don't care, he is awesome.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

for Smash.

Best Pokémon ever!

 

[EdgeTheLucas]

The bigger reason some fans are hesitant on adding more Generation 1 Pokémon is that fans of other generations just want more variety. The more Smash adds Pokémon from Red / Blue / Yellow, the more saturated the Pokémon part of the roster will become. I was personally relieved that this was the first Smash game that didn't add another Gen 1 Pokémon.

I think Pokkén should be expanded so that many more Pokémon can be added from different generations. Everyone here wanting their favorite Pokémon in Smash, I think, will be just as happy if they can just have them as Pokkén fighters, and it would keep Smash's Pokémon roster limited to super-notable Pokémon from different generations so as to not oversaturate it. And Pokémon fans like myself can have a cool alternative for duking it out with our favorite Pokémon.

Edit: I still want Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Pichu back. But afterwards I just want some restraint on any Pokémon newcomers.

 

[Arcadenik]

I personally feel that if a franchise is going to have many characters in a Smash roster, it should cover up to 15% (that's the maximum) of the roster.

For example, in a roster with 100 playable characters (I wish), the most a franchise like Mario or Pokemon can have without overrepresenting is 15 characters.

The SSB4 roster currently have 55 playable characters (I am counting Mii Fighters as three different characters) so highest number of playable characters for a franchise like Mario or Pokemon should be 8.

I can then conclude that Mario, Pokemon, Zelda, and Fire Emblem are not overrepresented in SSB4.

 

[Arcadenik]

The bigger reason some fans are hesitant on adding more Generation 1 Pokémon is that fans of other generations just want more variety. The more Smash adds Pokémon from Red / Blue / Yellow, the more saturated the Pokémon part of the roster will become. I was personally relieved that this was the first Smash game that didn't add another Gen 1 Pokémon.

I think Pokkén should be expanded so that many more Pokémon can be added from different generations. Everyone here wanting their favorite Pokémon in Smash, I think, will be just as happy if they can just have them as Pokkén fighters, and it would keep Smash's Pokémon roster limited to super-notable Pokémon from different generations so as to not oversaturate it. And Pokémon fans like myself can have a cool alternative for duking it out with our favorite Pokémon.

Edit: I still want Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Pichu back. But afterwards I just want some restraint on any Pokémon newcomers.

Other generations = more variety? How? They are all Pokemon. It doesn't matter which generation they are from.

If Greninja was a Gen 1 Pokemon, does it mean Greninja didn't add any variety to the roster?

 

[The Novice Sword]

Given that there are over 700 pokemon I'd say there's ton of potentially great Smash characters from every generation.

 

[smashkirby]

I'll take PKMN from any generation. As @The Novice Sword said, they all have the potential to be great Smash characters. But still, I'm not even going to lie here, if we could only get 1 more Gen 1 rep, (As in Smash NEVER again adds Gen 1 PKMN to the series) Hands DOWN, for me, it's going to be

Spoiler

Mind you though, I'd still want Squirtle and Ivysaur back as well, and THEN I'd consider Gen 1 complete in terms of Smash.

 

[EdgeTheLucas]

Other generations = more variety? How? They are all Pokemon. It doesn't matter which generation they are from.

If Greninja was a Gen 1 Pokemon, does it mean Greninja didn't add any variety to the roster?

Red / Blue / Yellow isn't everyone's first Pokémon game. It certainly isn't mine. A lot of us have favorite Pokémon that aren't the original 151.

No matter how iconic the original generation is, people are gonna notice and get annoyed if it keeps becoming the majority of Pokémon's Smash playable selection. Different generation Pokémon also appeal to different age groups / groups of players who joined in the Pokémon games at different times.

Perhaps "variety" in the literal sense wasn't the best word to use, but basically imagine if all the Mario Kart characters had to have originated in the original 1985 Super Mario Bros. game. We'd only see Mario, Luigi, Peach (or "Toadstool"), Toad (or "Mushroom Retainer"), Bowser, and the various enemies from throughout the game. People who like Yoshi or Donkey Kong or Wario or Rosalina or whatever would start to feel miffed that this hypothetical Mario Kart's roster keeps reaching only into the original game, no matter how varied it makes the game. It's pretty much ignoring a larger legacy for no real reason and can choke the REAL potential for variety in the game, pulling across different games rather than solely the first.

Back to Smash--the only Gen 1 newcomers I can see happening, past bringing back Squirtle and Ivysaur, are Eevee, Raichu, and Meowth I guess. The former has remained relevant and notable up to Gen 6 due to gaining so many potential evolutions, the middle is the only Pikachu family member not playable, and if Sakurai really does believe that the anime still has to be referred to when choosing Pokémon newcomers (which, after Greninja's inclusion, is starting to seem unlikely), then Meowth is the only Gen 1 Pokémon left whose popularity is there mostly because of the anime and little else. To a larger Pokémon-playing audience, these inclusions, as potentially unique as they can be, would still be a little boring if they were the only Smash Pokémon newcomers because it's still needlessly choking out the selection to a single generation, and doesn't really show the true breadth of Pokémon's variety as much as pulling from all the different generations of the franchise would. I know, the Poké Ball and Master Ball items do some way toward counteracting this, but it'd be more significant if some of the varied Pokémon species from the games were playable rather than a summonable item. A lot more people get hyped over Pokémon characters being playable than Pokémon characters being summonable.

Just my two cents on the matter. Usually I don't enforce variety for variety's sake, but I hope people get what I mean when I say Pokémon could still afford to have more of a focus on Pokémon generations past the first when choosing newcomers.

 

[Deleted member]

Pokémon shouldn't be evaluated on the Generation they come from.

That being said, Pokémon from older Generations shouldn't be looked at when it comes to potential newcomers unless there is something major going on for that Pokémon in more recent times (and I mean more than just simply "these games got remakes" or "this Pokémon got a Mega Evolution").

Priority for potential newcomers should always go to newly introduced Pokémon simply because they haven't had the chance to be evaluated yet.

Take Gengar for example.
If all of a sudden, Gengar started becoming much more prominent within the scope of the franchise, with being the top voted Pokémon to be included in Pokken being the beginning of Gengar's new stardom, then Gengar should be re-evaluated when it comes time to consider a newcomer Pokémon for Smash, Generation 1 Pokémon or not.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

Gengar would be the most hype pokemon to be added to Smash. I love ghost types, Plus all normals wouldn't hurt it. #Kappa

 

[Arcadenik]

Let's talk about variety in Pokemon Mystery Dungeon games... take the latest game in the series for the 3DS... all the playable characters are from all six generations... BUT all of them are Grass, Fire, or Water... and Pikachu and Riolu are the only playable characters that are not Grass, Fire, or Water... can we claim that the roster has lots of variety because they are from all six generations even though there isn't much variety of types?

 

[Miikon]

When it comes to a pokemon newcomer, there are only a few that I can see making it in, because we have to account for popularity, uniqueness and whether they can work in a Smash Bros setting.
Relevance doesnt work the same way for pokemon as is does for other franchises, as Mewtwo was a newcomer in Melee despite gen 2 being more relevant and Pokemon trainer was chosen for Brawl despite gen 4/3 being more relevant at the time.

These Pokemon are the ones I personally believe can make it in:
Meowth (Normal moves)
Gengar (Ghost moves)
Scizor (Bug and Steel moves)
Suicune (Ice moves)
Sceptile (Grass moves and grass starter (Game Freak will propably design gen 7 grass starter to be suitable in a smash setting by coincidence))
Blaziken
Gardevoir (hugely popular and fairy/psychic moves)
Weavile (Ice moves)
Zoroark
Haxorus (Dragon moves)
Hawlucha (Flying moves)

 

[BluePikmin11]

While I was looking for Nintendo IPs, I found a game called Archaic Sacred Heart (ASH).
The main protagonist is Aisya and has a kickass design, just look:

You don't see this every day.

 

[The Novice Sword]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Hawlucha4smash

Beyond that, I think a lot of pokemon (dare I say most?) could be good Smash newcomers as DLC or in future Smash games. Though I do agree that more weight for consideration should start going to newer mons in order to stay relevant to the current games and not cater so exclusively to the older nostalgia crowd (which admittedly I am a part of at least by age)

While I was looking for Nintendo IPs, I found a game called Archaic Sacred Heart (ASH).
The main protagonist is Aisya and has a kickass design, just look:

You don't see this every day.

She is pretty dang awesome looking. What's her story?

 

[BluePikmin11]

She is pretty dang awesome looking. What's her story?

She's a princess of the region of Milinear. After her parents were killed 12 years ago, she was raised by Bullnequ. She was to be crowned the Queen of Milinear when she turned 17, but the ceremony was interrupted when the capital was attacked and burned by the Flame Snake, at the start of the game. She is trusting and naïve, but can be decisive. She has the ability to take other people's hatred, sorrow, and regret into her heart and carry them with her.

From the wiki. It's relatively interesting.

 

[smashkirby]

While I was looking for Nintendo IPs, I found a game called Archaic Sacred Heart (ASH).
The main protagonist is Aisya and has a kickass design, just look:

You don't see this every day.

Oh, yeah. I've heard about her in passing. Most of the time I've seen her has been on SmashBoards, interestingly enough. BTW, what's her backstory? Oh, dang. I just remembered, she's one of the characters I was hoping you'd do for your Daily Ballot. Too late now, I suppose. Also, if she got into Smash, I don't think I'd mind. She looks pretty interesting.

 

[The Novice Sword]

Sounds pretty cool. I'm of the opinion that one of the side benefits of Smash is that introduces you to obscure characters an/or gets you into new game series.

 

[smashkirby]

Sounds pretty cool. I'm of the opinion that one of the side benefits of Smash is that introduces you to obscure characters an/or gets you into new game series.

At this point, it almost seems like that's part of the point of Smash.

 

[The Novice Sword]

At this point, it almost seems like that's part of the point of Smash.

Haha maybe. I know I never would have picked up a Fire Emblem game if I didn't play Smash 4 and think "hey Lucina and Robin seem cool. Maybe its time to see what the fuss is about"

 

[BluePikmin11]

Apparently ASH has the largest file size for a DS game, very impressive especially when I thought Xenoblade was the only one that accomplished that.

 

[Yogurt]

ok but what if like Gracie Grace were in the game, like imagine having a glamorous giraffe strike poses and stuff as moves....

 

[The Novice Sword]

ok but what if like Gracie Grace were in the game, like imagine having a glamorous giraffe strike poses and stuff as moves....

She'd make a good assist trophy now that I think about it.

 

[Talpr1]

If Melee and Ruby and Sapphire came out at the same time, Blaziken could have been a much more logical C. Falcon clone than Ganondorf

 

[Kenith]

If Melee and Ruby and Sapphire came out at the same time, Blaziken could have been a much more logical C. Falcon clone than Ganondorf

...
You know.
That's an interesting thought.
Probably still would have gone with Ganondorf, though.
You know, Ganondorf as a clone in Melee was fine...it was Brawl as a semi-clone that looks bad for me.
Because OOT Ganondorf had a design that seemed so much more physical. Kinda looks like Demitri from Darkstalkers now that I think about it. Him jumping around and punching people gleefully kinda fit...
TP Ganondorf though seems to favor the sword and magic more, so he kinda just comes off as an old man out of his element, lol.
We should get that design as an alt for DLC.

 

[Talpr1]

...
You know.
That's an interesting thought.
Probably still would have gone with Ganondorf, though.
You know, Ganondorf as a clone in Melee was fine...it was Brawl as a semi-clone that looks bad for me.
Because OOT Ganondorf had a design that seemed so much more physical. Kinda looks like Demitri from Darkstalkers now that I think about it. Him jumping around and punching people gleefully kinda fit...
TP Ganondorf though seems to favor the sword and magic more, so he kinda just comes off as an old man out of his element, lol.
We should get that design as an alt for DLC.

Well, depends if Game Freak would've approached Sakurai telling him: "hey maybe you could put one of the newest Pokemon from our new game in Smash" like Intelligent System did with Roy. Otherwise yeah probably he would've gone with Ganondorf regardless.

 

[Burruni]

...
You know.
That's an interesting thought.
Probably still would have gone with Ganondorf, though.
You know, Ganondorf as a clone in Melee was fine...it was Brawl as a semi-clone that looks bad for me.
Because OOT Ganondorf had a design that seemed so much more physical. Kinda looks like Demitri from Darkstalkers now that I think about it. Him jumping around and punching people gleefully kinda fit...
TP Ganondorf though seems to favor the sword and magic more, so he kinda just comes off as an old man out of his element, lol.
We should get that design as an alt for DLC.

It's a shame
That all 3 of my mains from past games
Lost their best looks.
> Grampadorf
lost her Bandana
lost 4 of his Pallette Swaps, including the Wario Land look of the "Monochrome" colors, which I take as a nod to how he looked back on the GB for the earlier Wario Land titles.

By this logic, and will just somehow be cut from the koopalings in Smash 5 (or, a little more reasonably, is losing swimsuit mode)

Edit: Also, does anyone know what all the "Smash 3DS" stuff is, and why KtG and I have our title changed to "Pranked" with our names being in purple?

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

I don't think Ganondorf looks like an old man in his Smash 4 version, unless you choose the old manondorf palette swap. Of course, he is chronologically older than Ocarina dorf, however one thing that should be pointed out is that Ocarina Ganon wears tight body armor whereas TP Ganon has baggier clothing around his legs and belly thus creating the effect of looking out of shape when that is not the case. Link is a bit similar wearing tights in OoT unlike his pants in TP, which makes him appear a bit more muscular in some artwork.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

The problem with bringing transformations back doesn't just start and end with hardware. Sure, the 3DS couldn't handle it (right?), but there's more to it on a conceptual level.

For someone who used to pick Zelda in Brawl, from my experience, people picked Zelda to play as Sheik. They didn't want to play as Zelda. They just wanted Sheik. From a gameplay perspective, why use the transformation if it's not used strategically, or Zelda is cast off to the side for her superior transformation in Sheik? It's a waste. That's partially why Sheik probably got separated.

Zero Suit Samus in my opinion was a problem with untapped potential. Being strapped down to be a Final Smash transformation was (imo stupid) and forced players to play as Zero Suit Samus AND Samus, especially if you wanted a Final Smash.

Pokemon Trainer was another case of "why switch?" in Brawl. Most of the time, I liked just playing as Charizard. I'm sure it was a common complaint among players who just wanted to play as one of the Pokemon. I liked the concept of the Pokemon Trainer, but I feel as if they made the right decision with Charizard being the standalone Pokemon considering his massive popularity and what not. This likely comes to a matter of opinion really.

Overall I think transformation characters should stay away, simply because if there's a superior form, that form is going to be used far more than the inferior one, and that's not the point of a transformation character. There's also probably a form of balancing going on with Namco on the team, and they saw the transformation as more work than necessary.

 

[Burruni]

I don't think Ganondorf looks like an old man in his Smash 4 version, unless you choose the old manondorf palette swap. Of course, he is chronologically older than Ocarina dorf, however one thing that should be pointed out is that Ocarina Ganon wears tight body armor whereas TP Ganon has baggier clothing around his legs and belly thus creating the effect of looking out of shape when that is not the case. Link is a bit similar wearing tights in OoT unlike his pants in TP, which makes him appear a bit more muscular in some artwork.

TP Ganon doing the up-tilt is still horribly weird to see.
It at least looked better with Melee Dorf (then again I'd also love the HW Ganon as an alt)

 

[Roaring Salsa]

Edit: Also, does anyone know what all the "Smash 3DS" stuff is, and why KtG and I have our title changed to "Pranked" with our names being in purple?

The "Smash 3DS" stuff was maintenance going on the site; the Smash Wii U and 3DS sub-forums were merged. "Pranked" status occurs when a premium user decides to play a "prank" on you by changing your color to magenta and status to "Pranked!" and it lasts for a month

The main changes I'd give Ganondorf are Warlock Punch to Dead Man's Volley, and a new up tilt and up smash

 

[DJ3DS]

While I was looking for Nintendo IPs, I found a game called Archaic Sacred Heart (ASH).
The main protagonist is Aisya and has a kickass design, just look:

You don't see this every day.

Really? Because the moment I saw this I thought it was fan art of Lucina in barbarian clothing until I read the post.

 

[Aetheri]

The problem with bringing transformations back doesn't just start and end with hardware. Sure, the 3DS couldn't handle it (right?), but there's more to it on a conceptual level.

For someone who used to pick Zelda in Brawl, from my experience, people picked Zelda to play as Sheik. They didn't want to play as Zelda. They just wanted Sheik. From a gameplay perspective, why use the transformation if it's not used strategically, or Zelda is cast off to the side for her superior transformation in Sheik? It's a waste. That's partially why Sheik probably got separated.

Zero Suit Samus in my opinion was a problem with untapped potential. Being strapped down to be a Final Smash transformation was (imo stupid) and forced players to play as Zero Suit Samus AND Samus, especially if you wanted a Final Smash.

Pokemon Trainer was another case of "why switch?" in Brawl. Most of the time, I liked just playing as Charizard. I'm sure it was a common complaint among players who just wanted to play as one of the Pokemon. I liked the concept of the Pokemon Trainer, but I feel as if they made the right decision with Charizard being the standalone Pokemon considering his massive popularity and what not. This likely comes to a matter of opinion really.

Overall I think transformation characters should stay away, simply because if there's a superior form, that form is going to be used far more than the inferior one, and that's not the point of a transformation character. There's also probably a form of balancing going on with Namco on the team, and they saw the transformation as more work than necessary.

Well I for one liked to play Zelda a lot more in Melee and Brawl than Sheik, but that's just me (a more casual less competitive me mind you, although nowadays I pretty much use both of them equally)...I doubt transformations were removed for that reason though as that was their whole gimmick (which they introduced mind you) that made them so unique...ZSS made more sense to be separated, although she could still be selected to start the match as transforming was a bit tougher mid match than Zelda and pkmn trainer (starting off with bits of her armour at the start of the match, which actually gave her a bit of an advantage over other players)...

At the same time, Zelda, Sheik and Charizard have more complete movesets now because of their split, which may have been a happy accident as a result of transformations being hard on the 3DS...

TP Ganon doing the up-tilt is still horribly weird to see.
It at least looked better with Melee Dorf (then again I'd also love the HW Ganon as an alt)

People still think its weird to see Ganondorf doing the splits? I've seen some overly muscular or heavily overweight people do the splits, so I can't really call it that weird...also keeping in mind that Ganondorf isn't a normal human anyways...stranger things could've happened...