Official DLC Character Discussion Thread - Read the new sticky/announcement

[~Skelly~]

Wow are you all guys trying to make Smash (or the universes) sound darker and darker? xd

SSB went kinda dark with SSE in Brawl. You have Robs blowing themselves up against their will.

 

[AncientTobacco]

Why are people discussing Frogger at all?
It's pointless.

Blue just got obsessed with that rainbow thing.

 

[shadenexus18]

No one has answered my question on whether 7 third party characters is too many, but I guess that should go to the 5mash Roster Discussion.
Snake
Frogger
Sonic
Mega Man
Ryu
Pac-Man
Shovel Knight

Even then, you could always count Shovel Knight as an indie character and not a third party character.

And... The one argument holding Snake down, he has never been relevant to Nintendo.

What about the Keyblading master from the Kingdom Hearts series?

1. Sakurai's company is called "Sora Ltd." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sora_Ltd.

2. Game & Watch's D-Air is a keyblade. ^^

SMASHCEPTION!

 

[Doctor3AM]

It really should be saved for 5mash possibilities, but yeah I kind of got more interested with the rainbow thing. I do think he would be a great character to add to Smash though. Simply for being one of the three arcade giants, and being a very recognizable name. His name even appearing in Wreck-It Ralph alongside Mario Pac-Man and Ryu.

 

[SmashChu]

One more thing to say about Snake. If you go visit the thread, one of our awesome supporters posted a video of the live audio in reaction to the Brawl reveal trailer. Guess who got the most applause?

It wasn't Meta Knight. It wasn't Pit. It wasn't Zero Suit Samus. It wasn't Wario.

It was a character that many people now say "doesn't fit" is "too violent" "isn't Nintendo", or whatever they think. Solid Snake. Solid ****ing Snake got the most cheering and applause. Even Sakurai addressed this in one of the translations from source gaming.

Snake being in Smash made fans FREAK OUT. Was it partially because he was the first 3rd party in Smash? Probably. But he still got more applause than even Wario. The announcement of the game itself even!

It was probably more the fact he's not Nintendo and was totally unexpected. People got excited for Sonic and Megaman, but keep in mind that was the first time a third party character was ever added to Smash, and it was Solid Snake of all characters.

The reason he isn't back is probably because he doesn't fit. But why. You mentioned in your last post that Wario fighting Ike on Lylat doesn't "fit" or Ryu not being big on the NES doesn't "fit" (which makes no sense anyway). Snake doesn't fit for two reasons. First, his relationship to Nintendo is poor. All of the other third parties have some relation to Nintendo. Street Fighter and Megaman were both big on Nintendo systems and Sonic was Mario's rival (Sonic games also do the best on Nintendo systems). Snake is more a Sony character. He was big on the Playstation and the only Metal Gear games on the Nintendo were usually ports. Heck, Konami didn't even work on Snake Eater. The second factor is realism. Why does Ike and Wario in space work is because the characters and content have a sense of fantasy to them. You have futuristic bounty hunters, plumbers and warriros of olden times. But Snake is a character who is support to be realistic, or at least more based off of realism. The reason Ryu doesn't have this problem is that Street Fighter is very unrealistic. Ryu himself can shoot blue fireballs, propel himself in the air with spinning kicks and can leap using an upper cut. Compare it to Snake's abilities in Smash and its pretty tame.

I think the allure of Snake is gone. He was interesting because he was different, but coming back wouldn't be different. It would be the same. It would no longer be interesting and the legal work would just be to bring back a character we've already seen before and one that doesn't have as much to do with Nintendo.

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

Top 7 huh?

Snake
Rayman
Black Mage/Chocobo & Moogle
Mega Man
Pac-Man
Ryu
Sonic

 

[Sir Gengar de Èctoplasma]

My Top 7 third-parties:
Sonic
Mega Man
Pac-Man
Rayman
Bomberman
Black Mage
Snake / Ryu

 

[Champ Gold]

Blue just got obsessed with that rainbow thing.

Even then the rainbow thing could have work by just using the Nintendo characters as well

Red:
Blue:
Yellow:
Green:
Orange:
Purple:
Black:
White:
Pink:

 

[shadenexus18]

I think the allure of Snake is gone. He was interesting because he was different, but coming back wouldn't be different. It would be the same. It would no longer be interesting and the legal work would just be to bring back a character we've already seen before and one that doesn't have as much to do with Nintendo.

I disagree respectfully. Ah hem...if Solid Snake becomes a playable character again, I would download him, you would download him, and pretty much almost all of SmashBoards would download him. Snake is a household name.

Look at that Fake Solid Snake Amiibo. Look at it and marvel at its edgy design. You know it looks immaculate. You know you wanna buy it. $

 

[Deleted member]

3rd Party Top 7:
Mega Man
Sonic
Simon Belmont
Bomberman
Pac Man
Ryu
Snake.

 

[shadenexus18]

3rd Party Top 7:
Mega Man
Sonic
Simon Belmont
Bomberman
Pac Man
Ryu
Snake.

I'm still awe-struck that Simon Belmont or Soma Cruz is not in Smash Bros.

Also, Bomberman was in a game with Wario. I thought Sakurai loved retro. Just confirm him already!

 

[BluePikmin11]

I used to think Frogger was just a boring choice, after thinking about it more recently, I think he's an incredible choice have for a third party character. Now I want to see Mario vs. Sonic vs. Pac-Man vs. Mega Man vs. Frogger happen, it's the real match-up I want to see happen.

Even then the rainbow thing could have work by just using the Nintendo characters as well

Red:
Blue:
Yellow:
Green:
Orange:
Purple:
Black:
White:
Pink:

I'm only sticking to gaming icons for the poster I'm making.

 

[KimKarsmashian]

I think the allure of Snake is gone. He was interesting because he was different, but coming back wouldn't be different. It would be the same. It would no longer be interesting and the legal work would just be to bring back a character we've already seen before and one that doesn't have as much to do with Nintendo.

It's presumptuous to assume you know what would be "interesting" or not to the entire fanbase. We've already seen him before, and we want to see him again. This is the sentiment behind people who want any character to come back, and it's the reason the inter-Smash period is so fraught with anxiety about cut characters. Nobody wants to lose their main!

It's also silly to suggest that the "shock value" of adding his is the only or main reason people cared about him in the first place. Undoubtedly that was behind the incredible E3 response, but shock value isn't sustainable. There is a significant number of people who want him back now, in the year 2015. Obviously he's not shocking or surprising anymore, and we have way more 3rd party characters now. And yet this hasn't tempered support for him. He has an entirely unique moveset and occupies a unique niche. I'd say he's among the most requested characters in both the West and Japan. He clearly has his detractors, but then again so do other characters (Ryu seems to be one of the more polarizing 3rd party options) and Sakurai clearly has a "don't like it, don't use it" mentality (wrt clones and Smash tour, for example).

Someone mentioned that Snake got in as a "jokey" request. Which... is a bizarre idea. Wii Fit Trainer is a joke. ROB is a joke. Mr. G&W is a joke. Why would Sakurai go through all the hassle of getting the rights for Snake and getting approval from other characters' creators for the sake of a joke? What, did he think his life needed even more stress? And the way he and Kojima regard Snake certainly isn't indicative of it being a joking request:

Interviewer: Was Mr. Kojima glad that you included Snake?

Sakurai: Yes, he was very appreciative. He played as Snake in the finished game and said, “I really enjoyed that.” Since the fans have also responded well, putting in Snake and Sonic was well worth the effort.

It's not weird at all that somebody would want their character to appear in Smash. Wayforward wants Shantae in Smash. Yacht Club wants Shovel Knight in Smash. Kojima wanted Snake in Brawl (and according to some page I can no longer access, Smash 4 too). He wanted him in Melee, too, but he was too late. There's nothing to suggest Kojima wanted him in as a joke, or that that's how Sakurai took it.

Spoiler

How can people keep what was indisputably the best booty out of Smash? My Anaconda don't want none unless you got buns hun

 

[Oasis Dealer]

It was probably more the fact he's not Nintendo and was totally unexpected. People got excited for Sonic and Megaman, but keep in mind that was the first time a third party character was ever added to Smash, and it was Solid Snake of all characters.

The reason he isn't back is probably because he doesn't fit. But why. You mentioned in your last post that Wario fighting Ike on Lylat doesn't "fit" or Ryu not being big on the NES doesn't "fit" (which makes no sense anyway). Snake doesn't fit for two reasons. First, his relationship to Nintendo is poor. All of the other third parties have some relation to Nintendo. Street Fighter and Megaman were both big on Nintendo systems and Sonic was Mario's rival (Sonic games also do the best on Nintendo systems). Snake is more a Sony character. He was big on the Playstation and the only Metal Gear games on the Nintendo were usually ports. Heck, Konami didn't even work on Snake Eater. The second factor is realism. Why does Ike and Wario in space work is because the characters and content have a sense of fantasy to them. You have futuristic bounty hunters, plumbers and warriros of olden times. But Snake is a character who is support to be realistic, or at least more based off of realism. The reason Ryu doesn't have this problem is that Street Fighter is very unrealistic. Ryu himself can shoot blue fireballs, propel himself in the air with spinning kicks and can leap using an upper cut. Compare it to Snake's abilities in Smash and its pretty tame.

I think the allure of Snake is gone. He was interesting because he was different, but coming back wouldn't be different. It would be the same. It would no longer be interesting and the legal work would just be to bring back a character we've already seen before and one that doesn't have as much to do with Nintendo.

Alright, you have your reasons. However, just want to point out once again: The MGS series is FAR from realistic.

• Solid Snake is one of the many clones of Naked Snake/ Big Boss that were made to be the perfect solider
• The MGS series has had characters that have the power of electricity, a human turned into a cyborg ninja, People with a skull face, A mind reader, and a girl with the ability of turning invisible. Majority of people in the franchise are freaks and stand out from your regular grunts.
• You end up fighting many robots (metal gear) that have ranged in design. The most recent one is a giant humanoid robot that has a beam sword the length of a building.
• The weapons have ranged from normal guns, to some ridiculous stuff. In MGS 5, you have the Fulton which is a parachute that carries people and other equipment to your base. There's even a version of the weapon that sends them through a worm hole. In MGS4, there's a gun that shoots solar beams! You have your regular stuff, but then there's stuff that just makes you laugh and think how awesome the weapon is.
• Finally, the series has had many funny moments that break the "realism" the game tries to portray.

And honestly, reasons why some people want him back is FOR his move set. It may look simple, but it works and no other character has been able to replicate it. If people were uninterested by his move set, we wouldn't want him back in the first place.

 

[Deleted member]

I think it's fair to say that ANY Video Game Company would be happy to have one of it's characters in Smash Bros.

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

I think it's fair to say that ANY Video Game Company would be happy to have one of it's characters in Smash Bros.

Even Temco?

Kasumi for Smash

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

If Sakurai did decide to leave out Snake for having a poor relationship with Nintendo and being more associated with Sony, I don't think he would have considered adding Heihachi Mishima into this game. The reason for Heihachi not being added had nothing to do with his relationship with Nintendo

 

[shadenexus18]

If Sakurai did decide to leave out Snake for having a poor relationship with Nintendo and being more associated with Sony, I don't think he would have considered adding Heihachi Mishima into this game. The reason for Heihachi not being added had nothing to do with his relationship with Nintendo

A part of me died on the inside when it was revealed that not only Heihachi was a Mii costume, but also Akira Yuki and Jacky Bryant. All 3 characters are highly underrated when it comes to popularity.

Needless to say, I wanted to play as them...>_> Oh well.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

It was probably more the fact he's not Nintendo and was totally unexpected. People got excited for Sonic and Megaman, but keep in mind that was the first time a third party character was ever added to Smash, and it was Solid Snake of all characters.

The reason he isn't back is probably because he doesn't fit. But why. You mentioned in your last post that Wario fighting Ike on Lylat doesn't "fit" or Ryu not being big on the NES doesn't "fit" (which makes no sense anyway). Snake doesn't fit for two reasons. First, his relationship to Nintendo is poor. All of the other third parties have some relation to Nintendo. Street Fighter and Megaman were both big on Nintendo systems and Sonic was Mario's rival (Sonic games also do the best on Nintendo systems). Snake is more a Sony character. He was big on the Playstation and the only Metal Gear games on the Nintendo were usually ports. Heck, Konami didn't even work on Snake Eater. The second factor is realism. Why does Ike and Wario in space work is because the characters and content have a sense of fantasy to them. You have futuristic bounty hunters, plumbers and warriros of olden times. But Snake is a character who is support to be realistic, or at least more based off of realism. The reason Ryu doesn't have this problem is that Street Fighter is very unrealistic. Ryu himself can shoot blue fireballs, propel himself in the air with spinning kicks and can leap using an upper cut. Compare it to Snake's abilities in Smash and its pretty tame.

I think the allure of Snake is gone. He was interesting because he was different, but coming back wouldn't be different. It would be the same. It would no longer be interesting and the legal work would just be to bring back a character we've already seen before and one that doesn't have as much to do with Nintendo.

My point on Ryu is that many people like to say, "SNAKE ISN'T NINTENDO BLAH BLAH BLAH" and then don't say anything about Ryu. Even though, quite frankly, he isn't all that different. Metal Gear had its games on Nintendo platforms from time to time. Not so much anymore. Same thing as Street Fighter for the most part.

The thing is, this is where fan rules come into play. No where has Sakurai EVER said that the characters have to have a "close relationship" with Nintendo. The requirement made way back when was that they have, "an appearance" on Nintendo consoles. Snake fits the bill. Snake fits the bill regardless because he's a Smash veteran. Most of the arguments would be stronger if he'd never been in Smash before. But here we are, favor or no favor, Snake is a Smash Bros. veteran.

The problem is, saying "Snake doesn't fit" is a poor argument for the reasons I stated, and it's all opinion anyway. It's not objective fact.

Metal Gear Solid may be based on a "real world". But, Snake is a super soldier who hides in boxes to sneak past other super soldiers. There are walking bipedal nukes that have to be taken down. The main villain of Snake Eater shoots electricity at you in his boss fight. It's not all THAT realistic to be honest.

Not to mention, I would argue that the realism Snake brings is just another facet to make him different to the rest of the roster, and I don't see it as a bad thing. The thing is, Sonic, Mega Man, Pac-Man, Ryu AND Snake are all huge gaming icons. Snake fits with the other 3rd parties just fine.
To close...the allure of Snake is gone? Then what about ? "Eh, it was cool to have them in Brawl/Melee. But they're cut now! People won't be excited to see them anymore." That's not really true at all. Snake has many fans out there...he's projected to be Top 5-8 in the Smash Ballot.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Final version of the poster:

15 icons in total.

 

[Strider_123]

i want isa or tails

 

[KimKarsmashian]

Final version of the poster:
15 icons in total.

Forgive my ignorance, but who are #3 and #5?

 

[Schnee117]

Forgive my ignorance, but who are #3 and #5?

3 is Jibanyan (or whatever) from Yokai Watch and 5 is Professor Layton.

 

[Big-Cat]

It was probably more the fact he's not Nintendo and was totally unexpected. People got excited for Sonic and Megaman, but keep in mind that was the first time a third party character was ever added to Smash, and it was Solid Snake of all characters.

The reason he isn't back is probably because he doesn't fit. But why. You mentioned in your last post that Wario fighting Ike on Lylat doesn't "fit" or Ryu not being big on the NES doesn't "fit" (which makes no sense anyway). Snake doesn't fit for two reasons. First, his relationship to Nintendo is poor. All of the other third parties have some relation to Nintendo. Street Fighter and Megaman were both big on Nintendo systems and Sonic was Mario's rival (Sonic games also do the best on Nintendo systems). Snake is more a Sony character. He was big on the Playstation and the only Metal Gear games on the Nintendo were usually ports. Heck, Konami didn't even work on Snake Eater. The second factor is realism. Why does Ike and Wario in space work is because the characters and content have a sense of fantasy to them. You have futuristic bounty hunters, plumbers and warriros of olden times. But Snake is a character who is support to be realistic, or at least more based off of realism. The reason Ryu doesn't have this problem is that Street Fighter is very unrealistic. Ryu himself can shoot blue fireballs, propel himself in the air with spinning kicks and can leap using an upper cut. Compare it to Snake's abilities in Smash and its pretty tame.

I think the allure of Snake is gone. He was interesting because he was different, but coming back wouldn't be different. It would be the same. It would no longer be interesting and the legal work would just be to bring back a character we've already seen before and one that doesn't have as much to do with Nintendo.

TL;DR, I'm using arbitrary criteria to justify my illogical argument.

And how are "warriros of olden times" any less realistic than Solid Snake? Hell, Snake is a successful clone (sort of) of Big Boss. We're still not at human cloning yet.

Final version of the poster:



15 icons in total.

I can use other characters to make that rainbow.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Forgive my ignorance, but who are #3 and #5?

#3 is Jibanyan
#5 is Professor Layton
Two of Level-5's biggest Nintendo exclusive franchises ever.

 

[POKEMANSPIKA]

Final version of the poster:



15 icons in total.

Eh, wouldn't consider Layton an icon compared to the status of the rest of those characters.

edit - or Jibanyan.

 

[Strider_123]

@ KimKarsmashian
@ Oasis Dealer
@ Scoliosis Jones

Where did you guys get those DLC banners in your sig? they look cool

 

[Sir Gengar de Èctoplasma]

"Does not fit in Smash" is certainly one of the worst arguments ever. I wonder what's the actual reason why Snake got cut? Low priority? Konami? Sakurai just decided not to include him? Something else?

 

[KimKarsmashian]

@ KimKarsmashian
@ Oasis Dealer
@ Scoliosis Jones

Where did you guys get those DLC banners in your sig? they look cool

Uh, I can't remember. I probably nabbed them from someone else's sig. They may have been in the OPs for the characters' respective support threads.

 

[Wintropy]

- Good stuff -

Snake's about as realistic as Ryu.

BUT BIG MUSCLY MEN...!

Yes.

A big muscly man who sneaks around in a cardboard box and is a clone of the world's finest super-soldier.

A big muscly man who shoots energy waves from his hands and spins like a unipedal tornado.

Snake's series deals with very serious issues that exist in this world, but his world is nevertheless quirky and creative in its own way.

I'd nearly argue that, canon abilities considered, Little Mac or Marth are more "realistic" than Snake, just because professional athletes and sword-wielding noblemen actually exist in this world.

15 icons in total.

Gonna be frank, I think icon is stretching it.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

"Does not fit in Smash" is certainly one of the worst arguments ever. I wonder what's the actual reason why Snake got cut? Low priority? Konami? Sakurai just decided not to include him? Something else?

It's hard to say in my opinion. Sakurai is a huge Metal Gear fan in the first place, so I can't imagine he was the one who was openly, "Let's cut Snake!". Not to mention the man doesn't like cuts. My guess is that something came up in negotiations to get him back, and plans fell through, therefore there's no data for him.

Then again, when Kojima was interviewed prior to release, he mentioned that he was never asked about Snake for Smash 4. That was before the whole Konami situation anyway. However, Kojima still supports Snake in Smash.

It's anyone's guess really. Who knows?

 

[A Distant Demon]

@ KimKarsmashian
@ Oasis Dealer
@ Scoliosis Jones

Where did you guys get those DLC banners in your sig? they look cool

http://smashboards.com/threads/siggy-icons-by-n3on-requests-temporarily-closed.395319/

 

[DJ3DS]

Final version of the poster:



15 icons in total.

I like what you're trying for but Jibanyan isn't an icon at all.

 

[Wintropy]

I'm gonna be honest.

If Snake wasn't in Brawl, it'd be very difficult to justify him in Smash.

But he was.

Ergo, the most important factor - to wit, physically being in Smash - is ticked off by default.

Now the shoe's on the other foot. Justifications have to be made for why Snake can't be in Smash.

You can say that, well, y'know, he isn't in this game, so it evidently means his criteria isn't good enough.

Except that we don't know why Snake was cut. He's just another victim of circumstance as far as we know, same as Pichu or Ivysaur.

Precedent is fundamentally important in this context.

 

[Big-Cat]

It's hard to say in my opinion. Sakurai is a huge Metal Gear fan in the first place, so I can't imagine he was the one who was openly, "Let's cut Snake!". Not to mention the man doesn't like cuts. My guess is that something came up in negotiations to get him back, and plans fell through, therefore there's no data for him.

Then again, when Kojima was interviewed prior to release, he mentioned that he was never asked about Snake for Smash 4. That was before the whole Konami situation anyway. However, Kojima still supports Snake in Smash.

It's anyone's guess really. Who knows?

Even though Snake is Kojima's creation, the copyright holder is ultimately Konami. Ethically, Kojima has the final say in what Snake does and doesn't do. Legally, the entity that is Konami does. Then there's how Konami is dropping all console development after MGSV.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

My point on Ryu is that many people like to say, "SNAKE ISN'T NINTENDO BLAH BLAH BLAH" and then don't say anything about Ryu. Even though, quite frankly, he isn't all that different. Metal Gear had its games on Nintendo platforms from time to time. Not so much anymore. Same thing as Street Fighter for the most part.

To be fair Street Fighter II was a HUGE hit on the Super Nintendo, the Metal Gear games on the Nintendo systems never got much acclaim.

 

[Big-Cat]

To be fair Street Fighter II was a HUGE hit on the Super Nintendo, the Metal Gear games on the Nintendo systems never got much acclaim.

To be a devil's advocate, SF2 was a big hit period. It was also on the Genesis and primarily in arcades.

 

[RobinOnDrugs]

How about we make things more interesting?

Who do you think will be part of the next wave of Mii costumes? I'm calling Ridlii from Miitroid

 

[~Skelly~]

How about we make things more interesting?

Who do you think will be part of the next wave of Mii costumes? I'm calling Ridlii from Miitroid

Hell hath no greater fury...

 

[Deleted member]

I'm gonna be honest.

If Snake wasn't in Brawl, it'd be very difficult to justify him in Smash.

But he was.

Ergo, the most important factor - to wit, physically being in Smash - is ticked off by default.

Now the shoe's on the other foot. Justifications have to be made for why Snake can't be in Smash.

You can say that, well, y'know, he isn't in this game, so it evidently means his criteria isn't good enough.

Except that we don't know why Snake was cut. He's just another victim of circumstance as far as we know, same as Pichu or Ivysaur.

Precedent is fundamentally important in this context.

I don't think i could justify Roy or Captain Falcon if they weren't in Smash, but they are.