Official DLC Character Discussion Thread - Read the new sticky/announcement

[Sir Gengar de Èctoplasma]

Usually the first thing people do is "Lets see how this character compares to other fighters. For example, a lot of people were excited to do a Mewtwo vs Lucario match when he got released. No one was hyped for a "4 Player free for all with only Mewtwos."

How do you know that? Someone could very well been hyped for that.

 

[Senselessbreak]

Has anyone here honestly tried a 4 player free for all match with the same DLC fighter, at all yet? And if so how many times have you done this compared to other matches?

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Usually the first thing people do is "Lets see how this character compares to other fighters. For example, a lot of people were excited to do a Mewtwo vs Lucario match when he got released. No one was hyped for a "4 Player free for all with only Mewtwos."

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. YOU THINK YOU SPEAK FOR THE MAJORITY. HOW GODDAMN RICH.
FYI, I didn't do 4 player Mewtwo matches. I only had 6 other friends and we did 7 player Mewtwo. Rule number 1 about arguments: Don't assume everyone's like you

 

[Aetheri]

What does it matter how often it happens though...listen, they aren't going to limit players to who can use the Icies because it contradicts the reason they were cut in the first place...They didn't want version exclusive characters so why would they not allow four people to use them at once if people wanted?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

But the cake is a lie!!!

Like @ Cutie Gwen 's chest size.

Also, don't forget a good chunk of what was cut in 8-player Smash was hazards, including A.I. ones like Ridley. Something that didn't work on the 3DS as well. And yes, his data was on the 3DS. He was higher than some, like Yellow Devil. You know who also has immense A.I.? Nana. There's also the problem with having way too much on the screen at once, which is a huge reason why a ton of stuff is cut during 8-player Smash. Heck, 8 Rosalinas or Olimars do slow the game down a bit. It was not easy to handle, and there's no way Ice Climbers would work well there either.

Also screw the idea of screwing over 3DS players because some of us just can't handle the fact that the Ice Climbers isn't working properly on the 3DS in the way the game is fully supposed to be available to the players. That's ridiculous.

 

[Senselessbreak]

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. YOU THINK YOU SPEAK FOR THE MAJORITY. HOW GODDAMN RICH.
FYI, I didn't do 4 player Mewtwo matches. I only had 6 other friends and we did 7 player Mewtwo. Rule number 1 about arguments: Don't assume everyone's like you

I browse on the forums everyday though. I've yet to see a single person say "I can wait to do a 4 player mewtwo match". Ever. Or for any of the DLC characters. Ive seen lots of Mewtwo vs Lucario (and greninja). Roy vs Roy Koopa. Roy vs Marth. Lucas vs Ness.

Its a very unpopular match up to have 4 of the same character. The only time it seems to be used is in the melee competitive scene, with 4 Foxes, but this isn't always the case, as most matches are 1 v 1.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Has anyone here honestly tried a 4 player free for all match with the same DLC fighter, at all yet? And if so how many times have you done this compared to other matches?

Me and my many friends do this for about a month when the character has recently released. Afterwards, we do it every now and then. What's so terrible about us, the consumers, not wanting to get ****** over about a BS decision should this happen?

 

[Aetheri]

I browse on the forums everyday though. I've yet to see a single person say "I can wait to do a 4 player mewtwo match". Ever. Or for any of the DLC characters. Ive seen lots of Mewtwo vs Lucario (and greninja). Roy vs Roy Koopa. Roy vs Marth. Lucas vs Ness.

Its a very unpopular match up to have 4 of the same character. The only time it seems to be used is in the melee competitive scene, with 4 Foxes, but this isn't always the case, as most matches are 1 v 1.

Do people really need to advertise it? Everytime I do it with my buddies its usually spur of the moment....because the option is still available...

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I browse on the forums everyday though. I've yet to see a single person say "I can wait to do a 4 player mewtwo match". Ever. Or for any of the DLC characters. Ive seen lots of Mewtwo vs Lucario (and greninja). Roy vs Roy Koopa. Roy vs Marth. Lucas vs Ness.

Its a very unpopular match up to have 4 of the same character. The only time it seems to be used is in the melee competitive scene, with 4 Foxes, but this isn't always the case, as most matches are 1 v 1.

DUDE. THIS IS A SITE THAT PREFERS 1V1. LERN 2 RESRCH

 

[FalKoopa]

I browse on the forums everyday though. I've yet to see a single person say "I can wait to do a 4 player mewtwo match". Ever. Or for any of the DLC characters. Ive seen lots of Mewtwo vs Lucario (and greninja). Roy vs Roy Koopa. Roy vs Marth. Lucas vs Ness.

Its a very unpopular match up to have 4 of the same character. The only time it seems to be used is in the melee competitive scene, with 4 Foxes, but this isn't always the case, as most matches are 1 v 1.

The internet forums make up probably 10% (at best) of the entire Smash fanbase.

Doing a four player same character match is very much upon the whims of the player. I can play 4 Marios on my 3DS. It stands to reason that I should be able to do that for every character on the roster. Restricting one character is simply unfair.

 

[Senselessbreak]

DUDE. THIS IS A SITE THAT PREFERS 1V1. LERN 2 RESRCH

Did I say this site wasn't 1 v 1? Besides I browse All the major smash communities (mostly of Neogaf, gamefaqs and /v/). Until someone can prove it otherwise, i'd say 4 player match ups of the same character make up a very very very low percentage of matches that gamers play.

Do they happen? Sure. But the majority like sticking to a variety of characters, and looking for unlikely match ups. Thats whats makes Smash so unique and fun in the first place.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Did I say this site wasn't 1 v 1? Besides I browse All the major smash communities (mostly of Neogaf, gamefaqs and /v/). Until someone can prove it otherwise, i'd say 4 player match ups of the same character make up a very very very low percentage of matches that gamers play.

Do they happen? Sure. But the majority like sticking to a variety of characters, and looking for unlikely match ups. Thats whats makes Smash so unique and fun in the first place.

You said 'teh forms', something how we usually describe this bloody site.

Thats whats makes Smash so unique and fun in the first place.

LETS MAKE A 4 PLAYER GAME NOT HAVE 4 OF THE SAME CHARACTER. SO FUN AND UNIQUE!

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

The internet forums make up probably 10% (at best) of the entire Smash fanbase.

Doing a four player same character match is very much upon the whims of the player. I can play 4 Marios on my 3DS. It stands to reason that I should be able to do that for every character on the roster. Restricting one character is simply unfair.

This is why the idea of a "Boss Mode" is unfeasible. Only one person can play as the boss, which means others can't. They're intending the players to choose up to 4 players in multiplayer of the same characters as an option at all times. There are specific restricted modes, but those are based around single player, not multiplayer. It's been this way since literally the first game. There's no good reason to change this rule as it only annoys more than it helps.

 

[YoshiandToad]

All that talk of why did Rosalina and Bowser Jr. get over Toad bums me the **** out.

Thanks for throwing yet more salt into the wound guys. Jerks.

 

[Wintropy]

@ Cutie Gwen , as a routine patron of this thread, I'm gonna politely request that you calm down with the vitriolic hyperbole. It makes for very uncomfortable reading.

All that talk of why did Rosalina and Bowser Jr. get over Toad bums me the **** out.

Thanks for throwing yet more salt into the wound guys. Jerks.

This is why I how view Captain Toad as the future saviour of Toadkind.

Our backpack-clad messiah will lead us into Smash wonder and glory yet, just believe.

 

[Deleted member]

*Sees Ice Climber argument going on*

........


Glad I didn't join in when it was starting....

 

[POKEMANSPIKA]

All that talk of why did Rosalina and Bowser Jr. get over Toad bums me the **** out.

Thanks for throwing yet more salt into the wound guys. Jerks.

Well if it helps, Bowser Jr. only got in because of the idea of the Koopa Car and Koopalings alts (SO STUPID! WHY YOU HAVE NO BRUSH! BRUSH GAME WEAK!). As you can see, I dislike how this was the reason for Bowser Jr.'s inclusion.

@ Cutie Gwen , as a routine patron of this thread, I'm gonna politely request that you calm down with the vitriolic hyperbole. It makes for very uncomfortable reading.



This is why I how view Captain Toad as the future saviour of Toadkind.

Our backpack-clad messiah will lead us into Smash wonder and glory yet, just believe.

So I've compared Captain Toad to Indiana Jones, you've made him a savior of Toadkind. What else is Captain Toad going to be called?

 

[Deleted member]

So I've compared Captain Toad to Indiana Jones, you've made him a savior of Toadkind. What else is Captain Toad going to be called?

Stupid fungus. Waa.

 

[Wintropy]

So I've compared Captain Toad to Indiana Jones, you've made him a savior of Toadkind. What else is Captain Toad going to be called?

The Promised Toad.

The anointed fungus will deliver us amanitoid believers to a future of hope and prosperity, just believe.

 

[Senselessbreak]

Also keep in mind, the 3 Ice Climbers is only one solution. First of all, a common misconception is that the 3DS version can't handle 8 Ice Climbers on screen at once. In terms of specs, the 3DS is stronger than the gamecube.

Gamecube
CPU: 64 bit, 486 Megahertz
RAM: 40 megabytes
Video RAM: 2 megabytes
GPU: 162 Megahertz
Resolution: 640x480 pixels
Storage Media: 1.5 gigabytes

Nintendo 3DS

CPU: Dual-Core ARM11 MPCore
RAM: 128 megabytes
Video RAM: 4 megabytes
GPU: Digial Media Professionals PICA200 GPU
Resolution: 400x200
Storage Media: 2.0 gigabytes

Its not so much the 8 characters on screen at once, as it is the 8 characters on screen at once at 60 FPS. Smash 3DS renders the graphics at 30 FPS, while rendering the physics at 60 FPS.

This becomes very demanding on the 3DS, and thus would cause problems with the Ice Climbers. The 3DS version can already handle 6 fighters on screen at once and still run at 60 FPS (with Mii Fighters), so the issue would seem to occur when selecting 4 Ice Climbers at once.

Sakurai has limited the frames of NPCs to 30 FPS, while keeping fighters at 60 FPS with the 3DS version. So a practical solution here is to allow up to three Ice Climbers at once to run at a smooth 60 FPS. When a 4th player selects the Ice Climbers, they are automatically lowered to 30 FPS. Pikmin already took a hit in FPS, and have much less polygons (as do the Ice Climbers).

Its work sure, but its another practical solution to getting them running.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Also keep in mind, the 3 Ice Climbers is only one solution. First of all, a common misconception is that the 3DS version can't handle 8 Ice Climbers on screen at once. In terms of specs, the 3DS is stronger than the gamecube.



Its not so much the 8 characters on screen at once, as it is the 8 characters on screen at once at 60 FPS. Smash 3DS renders the graphics at 30 FPS, while rendering the physics at 60 FPS.

This becomes very demanding on the 3DS, and thus would cause problems with the Ice Climbers. The 3DS version can already handle 6 fighters on screen at once and still run at 60 FPS (with Mii Fighters), so the issue would seem to occur when selecting 4 Ice Climbers at once.

Sakurai has limited the frames of NPCs to 30 FPS, while keeping fighters at 60 FPS with the 3DS version. So a practical solution here is to allow up to three Ice Climbers at once to run at a smooth 60 FPS. When a 4th player selects the Ice Climbers, they are automatically lowered to 30 FPS. Pikmin already took a hit in FPS, and have much less polygons (as do the Ice Climbers).

Its work sure, but its another practical solution to getting them running.

You know what else could handle 8 IC at 60 FPS? Melee. This isn't a solution, it's what they did. And they failed. Apples to oranges again, everything is higher quality than Melee graphically

 

[memoryman3]

You know what else could handle 8 IC at 60 FPS? Melee. This isn't a solution, it's what they did. And they failed. Apples to oranges again, everything is higher quality than Melee graphically

Isn't the GameCube stronger than 3DS in raw processing power? I'm not sure the 3DS would be able to handle most of it's games

 

[SmashChu]

Why would I reply to several points in a single paragraph? I chose that format. Doesn't mean anything aside from me picking that format. It's not like you only made one point in your response.

I'm replying to this because I want to make this clear to everyone, not just Scoliosis Jones.

If you are going to discuss/debate/argue a point, you need to have an assessment. Ultimately, what is your point? The discussion was over before it started because you didn't bring a new idea or thought to the table. Just what was discussed above. In fairness, I misrepresented your argument a bit. You did have more that what was discussed above, but I feel that, in the end, it developed into issues with specific points rather than overall arguments. Like this is a good example of what I'm talking about.

My original point on top of all of this, was that gameplay is important (never said others weren't important btw) and it SHOULD be the most important to people. Gameplay is what makes this game fun to play and talk about at the end of the day, right? Most of what else everybody brings up is a bunch of crap that they only care about because of their own character. To me, that's boring. According to quite a few people, that's boring.

This is a great paragraph. Instead of trying to pick apart little tings, you make an argument then provide support for that argument and discount other points if necessary. Where I felt you were going off track is when you had red responses to the two points. I posted those because they were the two arguments I was making. What I gathered was you were treating those a small things rather than the overall point I'm making.

For example, you mention Toad and E. Gadd and become hyper focused on that when it doesn't provide a lot more to your argument. Perhaps you could say "perhaps why they haven't added Dixie Kong, despite her being part of Diddy, was that she would not be that unique on her own." That would support your idea of "Uniqueness is the most important factor for a character," as it is, to the best of our knowledge, it is an example of this. Your above post did the same thing because you are focused on Toad vs E Gadd and not the big picture (the importance of uniqueness, which I assume is what you meant by that example in the first place)This is why I tell people not to play quote-soup. Don't take little pieces of a point. Read it, understand the argument, and debate your point. The reason why you would reply to sever single points with a paragraph is because the point only support the argument. You are trying to dismantle my argument, not my points. I disregarded your arguments because you moved away from an overarching argument and to "E Gadd can be just as unique as Toad," which isn't the point.

The post went a little long, so I'm sorry about that. I say this as I have a lot of experience with this having a background in Bank Examination where you do just that: assess and support. What is your overall argument, and how are you going to support it? I think focusing on those two things (Such as, "Uniqueness is the most important factor") would serve your argument better. Your last post was the strongest because it did more of that.

Edited post for clarity

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Isn't the GameCube stronger than 3DS in raw processing power? I'm not sure the 3DS would be able to handle most of it's games

If anything, that makes the argument of possible IC even worse

 

[Senselessbreak]

You know what else could handle 8 IC at 60 FPS? Melee. This isn't a solution, it's what they did. And they failed. Apples to oranges again, everything is higher quality than Melee graphically

The 3DS version can have 4 Olimars on screen at once, running at 60 FPS, 12 pikmin running at 30 FPS each, 3 pokemon running at 30 fps, and an assist trophy running at 30 fps. All onscreen at once, even in 3D, and running smoothly

If 8 Ice Climbers were on screen at once, running at 30 FPS, theres very little reason they wouldn't work.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

The 3DS version can have 4 Olimars on screen at once, running at 60 FPS, 12 pikmin running at 30 FPS each, 3 pokemon running at 30 fps, and an assist trophy running at 30 fps. All onscreen at once, even in 3D, and running smoothly

If 8 Ice Climbers were on screen at once, running at 30 FPS, theres very little reason they wouldn't work.

Problem: Do Pikmin function like characters? Can they grab? Can they be spun around by capes or stunned? They ultimately take less time and effort aswell

 

[Curious Villager]

I.... actually enjoy playing 4 player ditto's from time to time.....

 

[Champ Gold]

The 3DS version can have 4 Olimars on screen at once, running at 60 FPS, 12 pikmin running at 30 FPS each, 3 pokemon running at 30 fps, and an assist trophy running at 30 fps. All onscreen at once, even in 3D, and running smoothly

If 8 Ice Climbers were on screen at once, running at 30 FPS, theres very little reason they wouldn't work.

Using as an argument for Ice Climbers working on 3DS is stupid for one reason.

Pikmin and Luma are borderline weapons like swords, hammers and sort of like projectiles with AI.

Nana is straight Lvl. 3 CPU controlled fighter who will act off of you or do its own thing in some cases. Plus it's a modeled fighter, A MODEL FIGHTER.

Something Pikmin aren't even close to being. Pikmin can run at 30 fps and get away with it. A CPU controlled fighter like Nana couldn't

 

[Aetheri]

The 3DS version can have 4 Olimars on screen at once, running at 60 FPS, 12 pikmin running at 30 FPS each, 3 pokemon running at 30 fps, and an assist trophy running at 30 fps. All onscreen at once, even in 3D, and running smoothly

If 8 Ice Climbers were on screen at once, running at 30 FPS, theres very little reason they wouldn't work.

Olimar is lucky to be here himself...the Pikmin do not have CPU AI like Nana thus making the lot of them a lot easier on the 3DS's software...they function more like items anyways...

 

[JaidynReiman]

The 3DS version can have 4 Olimars on screen at once, running at 60 FPS, 12 pikmin running at 30 FPS each, 3 pokemon running at 30 fps, and an assist trophy running at 30 fps. All onscreen at once, even in 3D, and running smoothly

If 8 Ice Climbers were on screen at once, running at 30 FPS, theres very little reason they wouldn't work.

Its not the number of models. Its Nana's AI that's the problem. If Nana doesn't have the same AI as in the past, then Ice Climbers would work totally different. Pikmin just follow Olimar around, they don't act on their own. It was specifically stated to be Nana's AI that was the problem right from the start, so I'm not sure why this debate is still being had.

 

[Senselessbreak]

Problem: Do Pikmin function like characters? Can they grab? Can they be spun around by capes or stunned? They ultimately take less time and effort aswell

However the 3DS can still have 20 characters on screen at once (21 if you count the Flying man)

You can take the mii fighter stages, with 6 fighters running at 60 FPS each, and then include an assist trophy, with basic AI. Thats 7 characters on screen at once. The Ice Climbers are just barely pushing the 3DS in terms of FPS and AI processing. Which I why I say 3 at once is a solution, but if thats not good enough, you can add in a 4th and then, and only then cut their FPS from 60 each to 30

 

[Cutie Gwen]

However the 3DS can still have 20 characters on screen at once (21 if you count the Flying man)

You can take the mii fighter stages, with 6 fighters running at 60 FPS each, and then include an assist trophy, with basic AI. Thats 7 characters on screen at once. The Ice Climbers are just barely pushing the 3DS in terms of FPS and AI processing. Which I why I say 3 at once is a solution, but if thats not good enough, you can add in a 4th and then, and only then cut their FPS from 60 each to 30

For ****s sake. Quality over quantity. That's just like saying just because you can fit 1000 grapes in a basket you should be able to fit 1000 trucks in the same basket

 

[Deleted member]

Can we Stop all this Ice Climbers arguement? it's getting way to long.
We have talked about this thing for almost AN ENTIRE PAGE.

Instead, let's talk about Isaac. How would you feel if he was the 1st confirmed character in an Hypthetical Ninendo Direct in September?

 

[Sir Gengar de Èctoplasma]

Can we Stop all this Ice Climbers arguement? it's getting way to long.
We have talked about this thing for almost AN ENTIRE PAGE.

Instead, let's talk about Isaac. How would you feel if he was the 1st confirmed character in an Hypthetical Ninendo Direct in September?

I would be happy for his fans, but I wouldn't probably be hyped myself: Isaac isn't a character that I want, although I'm not against his inclusion either.

 

[Deleted member]

Instead, let's talk about Isaac. How would you feel if he was the 1st confirmed character in an Hypthetical Ninendo Direct in September?

I'll be happy to see a new character, and I'll test him out like I did the other DLC, but I am just apathetic when it comes to Isaac.

 

[Champ Gold]

However the 3DS can still have 20 characters on screen at once (21 if you count the Flying man)

You can take the mii fighter stages, with 6 fighters running at 60 FPS each, and then include an assist trophy, with basic AI. Thats 7 characters on screen at once. The Ice Climbers are just barely pushing the 3DS in terms of FPS and AI processing. Which I why I say 3 at once is a solution, but if thats not good enough, you can add in a 4th and then, and only then cut their FPS from 60 each to 30

Let me explain it to you a way that you can understand it.


Sakurai wants 4, count em, 4 working on let's say Final Destination while running at a solid 60 fps, with ATs appearing, items and the background moving. So in other words, Sakurai was trying to make 8-player Smash work on the 3DS with no issues.

Spoiler Warning:

Spoiler

It didn't

The 3DS was not strong enough to handle them at their max and it can easily fry the system.

There's only 2 ways for them to come back

1. Ice Climbers are working 100% with no lag, framerate chopping or errors (not gonna happen)
2. Split up Popo and Nana as singular fighters (He would have done that at launch and he knows what made them special)

And none of them, I repeat, none of those possibilities are happening unless they are New 3DS exclusive and Sakurai knows he won't even stoop that low and blackball almost 80% of 3DS users

 

[A Distant Demon]

Can we Stop all this Ice Climbers arguement? it's getting way to long.
We have talked about this thing for almost AN ENTIRE PAGE.

Instead, let's talk about Isaac. How would you feel if he was the 1st confirmed character in an Hypthetical Ninendo Direct in September?

You know we can't just change the subject all the time. a page isn't even that long for something like this.

As for Isaac I haven't played a lot of goldensun (Just got all the water out of the mines) bnut he is the one character I want on moveset potential alone because he has a lot of it. SA long as the moveset is good and he has a face better than the smashified version I will be happy as can be.

 

[Deleted member]

I will step into the argument just to say this.

The main issue with the Ice Climbers on the 3DS wasn't that the game couldn't handle 4 pairs of Climbers in one match or whatever.
It was that the game couldn't handle how the Ice Climbers functioned.

 

[Senselessbreak]

Its not the number of models. Its Nana's AI that's the problem. If Nana doesn't have the same AI as in the past, then Ice Climbers would work totally different. Pikmin just follow Olimar around, they don't act on their own. It was specifically stated to be Nana's AI that was the problem right from the start, so I'm not sure why this debate is still being had.

As I've stated, the 3DS can handle 6 Fighters at once smoothly at 60 FPS with the Mii Fighters, in addition to a single assist trophy (some assist trophies have basic AI).

First of all the Ice Climbers have less polygons compared to other fighters.

Now if we assume both Popo and Nana run at 60 fps each, the 3DS could easily have 6 of them on screen at once. However, we know Nana would be limited to 30 FPS. Nana's AI is more complex, less complex than a level 9 fighter (I think shes level 3? I'd need to look into that) but more complex than an assist trophy.

So lets say an assist trophy uses 50% AI complexity, compared to a 100% AI fighter (at level 9)
With 6 fighters and one AT on screen at once, that means you would have 650% fighter complexity.
Since Nana is not as complex to a fighter, lets say she has at least 75% AI complexity. Thus 4 sets of level 9 AI controlled Ice Climbers on screen would be about 700% AI complexity (400 for Popo, 300 for Nana). 750% with one AT on screen.

Now keep in mind this is only if we select 4 AI CONTROLLED Ice Climbers at once. If you have 4 human players, that would only have 400 AI Complexity on screen at once. Along with one AT so up to 450%

So we know the 3DS can handle up to 20 characters on screen at a minimum of 30 FPS (4 in 60)
And the 3DS can handle at least 650% of AI complexity. I estimate the Ice Climbers too take around 700%-750% with 8 AIs on screen.

So it seems the AI is just barely pushing the 3DS. Perhaps rather than limiting human players to 4 ICs, its possible to limit the computer from selecting mutltiple ICs. This could be a very great fix and compromise.

 

[Kenith]

Can we Stop all this Ice Climbers arguement? it's getting way to long.
We have talked about this thing for almost AN ENTIRE PAGE.

Instead, let's talk about Isaac. How would you feel if he was the 1st confirmed character in an Hypthetical Ninendo Direct in September?

Well, two things.

1. I'd be excited for Isaac. Not a real fan but he looks interesting.
2. I don't see him as being one of the top voted characters in the ballot, so him being chosen first would be exciting because there's actually a chance for some exciting---I mean, surprising newcomers.