Bandana Dee is easily the biggest example of Ensemble Darkhorse in the Kirby fanbase and he's a reoccuring character. Any and all comparisons to Goombas are moot
That's actually quite meh for the second and third game actually
By definition, Bandana Dee is not a darkhorse, which would be a contender no one sees coming. Everyone seems to be claiming he is the option. That is the opposite of a darkhorse.
And to continue, I am aware of who he is, I think I expressed specific points which you did not address, particularly the PERCEPTION of him, which is that he is a generic enemy. This is to people who do not know who he is, not to those who already know. I agree he would be a lot of fun, I just think he is not a money grabbing character, and would be ridiculously difficult to try to market.
But the thing is that the main characters are usually the lord class meaning they wield swords, because of this they are also the most popular. If there was a central protagonist that used a lance, an axe or was a mage or pegasus knight or whatever, I would see your point but other than Hector who is one of 3 lords in his game but there isn't one. They aren't gonna add some random Lance or Axe wielder just because they have a lance or an axe
This does not refute the points I made, it isnt really even a response to what I said other than maybe being inspired to respond. I'm, quite clearly, not a Fire Emblem fan- nothing against it, I just do not find it special. My thought is that true fans of the series, and not fanboys happy with any decision made but those with actual criticisms, would be disappointed with the fact that a series of vast possibilities is represented with characters who more or less are based around a single moveset. If Swordsmen are all the series has to offer, it is very well off in Smash. I just think it has more to bring to the table.
Fellow Pokemon fan here!
To be fair, the reason why the Pokemon Trainer is hardly seen in any of the Smash games is because people mostly play Pokemon for the Pokemon, and not for the trainers. The trainers in Pokemon exist to give the Pokemon some kind of higher power, so that the world could make more sense. Trainers also just exist as a self-insert for the player. They have no real thoughts or emotions. Their personality and role is completely up to the player. Pokemon is all about the Pokemon. I hardly see people talk about the humans in Pokemon unless it's Ash or Misty or something like that. It also would be kind of difficult to incorporate the trainer in Smash in someway. You see how Red got scrapped out of Smash 4 due to technological reasons and redundancy, right?
As cheesy and annoying as I think the anime is, if it weren't for the anime, Pokemon wouldn't have nearly been as popular and as influential as it is today. Not everything Pokemon has to be represented correctly in Smash, even though I am getting a bit sick and tired of Gen 1 Pokemon. I want a playable Gen 3 or 5 character.
I dont think anyone plays 'for the Pokemon,' I think that is a gravely simplistic view. If that were the case, the main games would be outsold, or sold in equal numbers, to its spinoffs. We play to capture, train, and assemble Pokemon into a team. Of course, we are both talking about more than ourselves- so neither of us can be sure. That said, if it were merely about the Pokemon, the main games would not be the top sellers. See more on this point shortly...
That's mainly because this is Smash Bros. Not everything is going to represented in certain ways. There's more to it that just one or two things.
They're not going to just add an archer class character from Fire Emblem to just add one. That character needs to be important/relevant to their series. It would be like adding Virion from Awakening simply on the virtue of him being an archer. If the installment after Fates has an archer class main character, then maybe they'd do that. That's mainly what helped Robin.
It's not all about representing the gameplay mechanics of other games. It still has to work and be a cohesive moveset. I for one am not a huge fan of making the Pokemon Trainer a kitchen sink type character. If you're taking away the gimmick he had in Brawl, you're taking away arguably the biggest thing about the Pokemon trainer. He trains and battles using Pokemon. Pokemon may not have a "protagonist" but Pokemon also takes inspiration from more than the games. Pikachu could arguably be considered the protagonist of the anime. He's an international icon. I personally don't think Pokemon NEEDS Pokemon Trainer for anything.
It was a cool concept in Brawl that could have been better.
If we're looking at it as Pokemon is not accurately represented in Smash, then we should extend that to other games in Smash. Is Captain Falcon an accurate portrayal of F-Zero? Not really, he drives a car. Are Fox and Falco accurate of Star Fox? Not really, they pilot fighter jets. Metroid is mainly about solving puzzles to get through each section. Samus doesn't have puzzle solving in her moveset. See where i'm going with this?
The best way (imo) that PKMN Trainer could be represented would be to put a Pokemon on the field. He wouldn't enter a battle throwing items at his opponent. The most feasible way to do it was abandoned because the character itself was flawed in Brawl, and the hardware may not have been able to handle it.
I'd love to hear some examples of what you had in mind for a moveset regardless though. It's an interesting concept, even if I don't agree with it.
I'd like to add that I friggen LOVE Pokemon. I play it all the time...definitely a Top 5 series for me on my all time favorites.
You may enjoy the series, but you completely overlooked my point about what makes Pokemon special. It is NOT the general monsters, it is the gameplay mechanics. Obviously this is important to Sakurai who cares about the 'essence' of the game, and mentioned such as the reason for adding Robin. What makes Pokemon unique at all- capturing, training, battling, strategizing- it isnt a matter of some of these being overlooked, its a matter of not any of it being taken into consideration, at all, in any way- not in characters, not in items, not in stages, not in anything.
I think Ive stated a number of moveset ideas for the Pokemon Trainer (and I agree, he shuldnt touch the fishing rod at all; thats a terrible idea). He is the essence of Pokemon. What could he use? Pokeballs. Summons. Strategy. A few posts before this I had an idea that the summons could be equivalent to the nmber of rivals (as in, you get one summon at a time if it is 1v1, two if 1 v 1 v 1, etc. This reflects the strategy and the different styles of battle.
As it stands, Pokemon is represented by generic monsters who could be reskinned as anyone, and only the popular characters. There is not another series only represented by popular characters, not even the ones with avatar characters themselves. Obviously this isnt okay for them, why is it okay for the second best selling franchise Nintendo has in its arsenal? It isnt.
Additionally... Ive posted before on the fact that Pokemon is much more than a franchise, particularly the first two generations. It is studied by economists, sociologists, anthropologists, and in a wide variety of other fields, because it was a sensation from 96-2000. It is unmatched in craze. To anyone looking for an amazing read on the subject, or who could think there is any way to contest this, please read "Pikachu's Global Adventure: The RIse and Fall of Pokemon." It is much more than a game series, and that cannot be argued.
Something just occurred to me...might be because I see people saying to not expect 6 DLC characters. Normally, I would agree. However, I'm thinking here...so bear with me.
It's projected that Nintendo could potentially reveal the NX at E3 next year, with a potential release in November 2016. Who knows what it would launch with, but as we know, Smash gets a new installment every console cycle.
Here's where things get interesting. There was a listing on Amazon for Smash with a handful of the DLC. May or may not be for Wii U. However, what might the chances be of porting Smash Wii U to the NX with all DLC on disc?
To update the game and not make it seem like a cop out, Sakurai/Nintendo schedule DLC characters to release over a set amount of time. Instead of creating an all new version for the NX (mainly because of the poor Wii U) you just port this version, and add content.
Not to say there wouldn't be a new installment later on with the NX, but seriously...it could happen. If they WERE to add 10 DLC characters counting the ones we have, then the roster will have grown monumentally post release. 10 DLC character is a lot, but not if you take into consideration what the future MIGHT hold for the company/series.
Not to be rude, but hasnt this been mentioned here numerous times?
If we're talking about Fire Emblem I've always wanted a Manakete character, but I don't open my mouth because I know it won't happen.
It feels like all we talk about on this board is Fire Emblem. You'd think the series earned money for Nintendo before Awakening with how much attention it receive.
I think you misunderstood. Back in the day, I interpreted Sakurai's interview about balance being more of multiplication than addition as an allusion to Pokemon Trainer's removal. I also figured that with the whole disclaimer that he was going to omit characters (yet I was certain that he was not referring to clones such as Toon Link because they were low effort) that it was logical enough. I just sort of had to wing "refuting" the notion that Pokemon Trainer was the single most important character Pokemon character not named Pikachu. It was merely devil's advocate as I, to this day, believe that Pokemon Trainer represented Pokemon the franchise the best. I did not want his removal per se, I just predicted it.
I'm not sure what points you are even making, honestly. All I see is that you agree that he is a necessary component for the roster. And of couse he is vital, like an anti-Dark Pit