Official DLC Character Discussion Thread - Read the new sticky/announcement

[FalKoopa]

FalKoopa
I'm going to tell you why I think Alph probably wasn't made into a character slot.

Balance.

Here's the thing. As it stands, Purple pikmin act like how Rock Pikmin probably should act. So naturally, if a character with Rock Pikmin were added, they would most likely change purple pikmin. Otherwise, they would be exactly the same and there would be even less of a point then Dark Pit. Am I correct in this assumption?

But the thing is, Olimar NEEDs purples to act like Rock Pikmin. Purples, are essentially "get off mes," due to the fact they can go past certain projectiles and deal knockback to an opponent. Without it, Olimar has barely any defense when he is a defensive character.

I just don't see how you can make purples work without making them too overpowered or too underpowered. If you give them a stun mechanic instead for example...you now have the opportunity to throw three possible stun projectiles at a time...And if you get the first or second one, you could get a guaranteed free purple pikmin smash attack.

It's possible to simply replace Alph's Purple Pikmins with Rock Pikmins. If the data for Olimar and Pikmin is stored in the same way as Brawl, then if Alph gets a separate slot, he can use Rock Pikmin independent of Olimar's Purple Pikmin, with the side-effect that the game has 2 copies of data for other Pikmin types (but storage is not an issue).

 

[Wintropy]

It's possible to simply replace Alph's Purple Pikmins with Rock Pikmins. If the data for Olimar and Pikmin is stored in the same way as Brawl, then if Alph gets a separate slot, he can use Rock Pikmin independent of Olimar's Purple Pikmin, with the side-effect that the game has 2 copies of data for other Pikmin types (but storage is not an issue).

That isn't what he's saying.

He's saying that, in the timeframe he had to potentially create Alph, Sakurai evidently didn't think of a good way to balance the Rock Pikmin without making them reskins of the Purple Pikmin.

Having Rock and Purple doesn't mitigate that issue.

It's a fair point.

 

[Koopaul]

Think about this. People complain about Ganondorf still having Captian Falcon-based moves while other people complain about Dark Pit being in the game at all.

Why is that? Why don't people want Dark Pit to be decloned and Ganondorf removed?

It's obvious. People actually love the character Ganondorf vs people don't really love Dark Pit.

I'm sure there are some people who like the character Dark Pit and wanted him in there, but they are a minority.

Point is, if you are going to give us a character no one wants, you better make it have a cool and unique moveset. Otherwise people will reject it. If it IS a character we all wanted, we don't care if he turns out to be a clone.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Funny story.

I don't give a damn about Mario.

I think he's a great character, but I have no interest in him in Smash.

Every game Doc is in, I play Doc.

If Doc was an alt for Mario, I'd play Mario just for the Doc alt.

If he wasn't in the game, I wouldn't play Mario.

I don't play Doc because I want my Mario fix, I play Doc because I want Doc.



...And?

I don't want to be rude, but have you ever played any of these characters?

Yes. I'vebeen experimenting with the Pits. Only difference I can notice is the bow, they feel the same outside that one aspect

Next time, I'm going to the bakery and look for the cake that has one less cherry. The number of cherries in a cake is very important and can be a deal breaker, indeed.

I'm not a defeatist. I just can tell apart content that is clearly meant as an extra from what is actually the main, more attention grabbing content.

Note how Dark Pit didn't even get a newcomer trailer (besides a tease after the end of Palutena's trailer) and Lucina was just shoehorned into Robin's trailer. They weren't characters that were meant to be heavily advertised or considered but were easy to put into the game because they are so similar to two other characters already in the game.

You might as well complain about certain games' Easter Eggs that may have taken way more work than the clones that almost no one finds them and they add absolutely nothing to the game other than a silly thing.

Jesus christ you don't get it. They are padding something that has over 50 characters without said padding that isn't different in the slightest, I paid 60 euros retail for this game and because there's something I'm unhappy with, I'm complaining about it. Dark Pit isn't my only complaint either, you're trying to make anyone who doesn't think the game is perfect seem like they're babies by the way you're typing these sentences

 

[Wintropy]

Think about this. People complain about Ganondorf still having Captian Falcon-based moves while other people complain about Dark Pit being in the game at all.

Why is that? Why don't people want Dark Pit to be declined and Ganondorf removed?

It's obvious. People actually love the character Ganondorf vs people don't really love Dark Pit.

This is in the same vein as your thesis statement that people don't really love Doc.

That is, totally unfounded and biased.

Yes. I'vebeen experimenting with the Pits. Only difference I can notice is the bow, they feel the same outside that one aspect

Then you're missing out on the big thing that does make them very different.

Jesus christ you don't get it. They are padding something that has over 50 characters without said padding that isn't different in the slightest, I paid 60 euros retail for this game and because there's something I'm unhappy with, I'm complaining about it. Dark Pit isn't my only complaint either, you're trying to make anyone who doesn't think the game is perfect seem like they're babies by the way you're typing these sentences

You paid €60 and got more content than you expected.

Explain to me how that is an evil crime.

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

It's possible to simply replace Alph's Purple Pikmins with Rock Pikmins. If the data for Olimar and Pikmin is stored in the same way as Brawl, then if Alph gets a separate slot, he can use Rock Pikmin independent of Olimar's Purple Pikmin, with the side-effect that the game has 2 copies of data for other Pikmin types (but storage is not an issue).

Um...I don't think you get my point. Yes, Alph would have Rock Pikmin instead of Purple Pikmin. But my point is how to balance that AND make Alph unique at the same time? Your whole point about Dark Pit was that he wasn't that much different from Pit. If Rock Pikmin are literally just reskinned Purples, then he becomes even lazier than Dark Pit. However, changing any of either of Purples or Rock Pikmin's behaviors can cause serious balance problems.

 

[NintenZ]

I think all of the clones are 100% justified, Dr. Mario was a very popular veteran, Lucina and Dark Pit are very popular characters in their own series, and they have their own highlights and defineing characteristics, I myself see nothing wrong with their inclusions.

 

[Burruni]

That isn't what he's saying.

He's saying that, in the timeframe he had to potentially create Alph, Sakurai evidently didn't think of a good way to balance the Rock Pikmin without making them reskins of the Purple Pikmin.

Having Rock and Purple doesn't mitigate that issue.

It's a fair point.

Rock Pikmin have more durablity than Purples but less of a "multiplier" to power.

Alph as a whole, however, has more range to his attacks (as he has the arms to chuck his fellow captains one after another without issue) but has less attack.

Due to this, Alph is a more defensive and versatile fighter at the cost of actual power.

(What do you mean it's far easier to /say/ what differences should be instead of actually program and balance it)

Edit: I just wanted to toss out my idea, I know in terms of functionality it'd be far harder to manage

 

[FalKoopa]

That isn't what he's saying.

He's saying that, in the timeframe he had to potentially create Alph, Sakurai evidently didn't think of a good way to balance the Rock Pikmin without making them reskins of the Purple Pikmin.

Having Rock and Purple doesn't mitigate that issue.

It's a fair point.

My entire point about Alph and Dark Pit is that if he had added Alph as a clone as well, we'd be seeing less complaints overall. Currently, the fact that Pikmin is still at one slot on the CSS while Kid Icarus can get away with three, is kind of a justifiable ground for people to scream bias.

Even if Alph was a lazy clone, that he is the only alt costume who could not get promoted, despite Pikmin 3 being an important Wii U release, is going to rub people the wrong way.

 

[Morbi]

This is in the same vein as your thesis statement that people don't really love Doc.

That is, totally unfounded and biased.



Then you're missing out on the big thing that does make them very different.



You paid €60 and got more content than you expected.

Explain to me how that is an evil crime.

Sometimes less is more. He is not implying that it is evil or a crime. He is blatantly stating that it is something that he is not particularly fond of and that it detracts from his experience. He has a right to share this sentiment.

 

[Wintropy]

My entire point about Alph and Dark Pit is that if he had added Alph as a clone as well, we'd be seeing less complaints overall. Currently, the fact that Pikmin is still at one slot on the CSS while Kid Icarus can get away with three, is kind of a justifiable ground for people to scream bias.

Even if Alph was a lazy clone, that he is the only alt costume who could not get promoted, despite Pikmin 3 being an important Wii U release, is going to rub people the wrong way.

Get away with three?

You're making it sounds like Sakurai is guilty of war crimes.

Sometimes less is more. He is not implying that it is evil or a crime. He is blatantly stating that it is something that he is not particularly fond of and that it detracts from his experience. He has a right to share this sentiment.

* She

You're missing the point of my statement, but whatever. :3

 

[Burruni]

My entire point about Alph and Dark Pit is that if he had added Alph as a clone as well, we'd be seeing less complaints overall. Currently, the fact that Pikmin is still at one slot on the CSS while Kid Icarus can get away with three, is kind of a justifiable ground for people to scream bias.

Even if Alph was a lazy clone, that he is the only alt costume who could not get promoted, despite Pikmin 3 being an important Wii U release, is going to rub people the wrong way.

 

[Baskerville]

Think about this. People complain about Ganondorf still having Captian Falcon-based moves while other people complain about Dark Pit being in the game at all.

Why is that? Why don't people want Dark Pit to be decloned and Ganondorf removed?

It's obvious. People actually love the character Ganondorf vs people don't really love Dark Pit.

I'm sure there are some people who like the character Dark Pit and wanted him in there, but they are a minority.

Point is, if you are going to give us a character no one wants, you better make it have a cool and unique moveset. Otherwise people will reject it. If it IS a character we all wanted, we don't care if he turns out to be alone.

Try telling that to K. Rool.

 

[DustyPumpkin]

- He plays differently enough from Mario that I like him, but he seriously needs buffs of his own to get a bit better
- She might have the same moves as Marth but without the tipper she feels safer to play as
- 3 Differences, 3 and if you count the Final Smash 4 there's nothing interesting about him, picking him over Pit is like "Do you prefer Darker colours or Lighter"

Its not like they didn't have the means to make them more different, if they gave them certain customs as defaults people would complain a lot less cause there would be people saying "Well yeah Pit's alright, but Dark Pit can KO a lot more quicker with the up special that does damage "
or "Well I like Marth but I'm not the best with counters and Lucina has the easy one, so I prefer her"

 

[Frostwraith]

Alph was meant as a clone, but Olimar was already an hassle to implement on the 3DS let alone a clone of him.

Rock Pikmin were also meant to be part of Olimar's moveset. They just weren't implemented due to time constraints.

I think the main reason everyone complains so much (Including me) is because we all love Smash Bros, not the other way around, we just really want to see it be the best game it could possibly be, that's why it's so disappointing when it has even the most minor of flaws. Does Smash having super minor flaws make it a bad game that's not worth my money? No! But it does mean there's still room for improvement, and that's where we, as consumers come into play, it's our job to let Nintendo know what we want and what kinds of things we don't really want. Or at least that's how I see it .

There will never be a best game ever.

People will want more and more and more and more. It's human nature to always want more.

And no, Dark Pit being in the roster isn't the spawn of Satan. Sorry to disappoint.

Yeah, he doesn't add a lot to the game, but it's not the end of the ****ing world. The game isn't magically worse in quality because of that. It still what it wants to be: an action fighting game featuring Nintendo characters (and a few guests).

The game is still polished and offers a ton of content. Thinking that a game that pushes the hardware's limits, that offers immense content, that has a lot of replay value, that is still getting updated with even more content and refining, loses value because of an extra clone character added at the very last minute, is clear insanity. It's clearly ignoring the work that was actually put into the essential content, all because they threw in an extra. I can't fathom this logic.

 

[FalKoopa]

Get away with three?

You're making it sounds like Sakurai is guilty of war crimes.

Eh, I'm not a native speaker. Don't take it the wrong way.

Change it "can have" then.

 

[Pazzo.]

I like Dark Pit, Lucina, Dr. Mario, and any other pseudo-clone in the Smash series. I really wish Alph had gotten his own slot.

What's wrong wit- *shot*

 

[Cutie Gwen]

This is in the same vein as your thesis statement that people don't really love Doc.

That is, totally unfounded and biased.



Then you're missing out on the big thing that does make them very different.



You paid €60 and got more content than you expected.

Explain to me how that is an evil crime.

I got more disappointing stuff too though. Just because there's more content doesn't mean there's more quality, Hell, Dark Pit was unfinished when the 3DS game came out iirc, his grab animations weren't polished. I bought the game expecting a certain height of quality. There are a lot of things that lowered said quality to the point it's disappointing to me, Dark Pit isn't my biggest complaint on the game as a whole, but when it comes to characters, I'm disappointed with him solely based on how samey he feels. I want the characters to at least feel different

 

[NintenZ]

Actually, counting the data found in the game's files for DLC characters, Smash For is on it's way to breaking the Guiness World Record for most characters in a fighting game, breaking the record of 56 from Marvel vs. Capcom 2, you have clones to thank for that.

 

[Morbi]

Get away with three?

You're making it sounds like Sakurai is guilty of war crimes.



* She

You're missing the point of my statement, but whatever. :3

I do not believe it is about the amount of content or that fact that it is purely bonus. It more or less has to do with the fact that they are not satisfied with the aforementioned content. And there is no problem with that. Telling her that it was purely bonus does not inherently alter the issue she has with the content.

 

[Burruni]

Actually, counting the data found in the game's files for DLC characters, Smash For is on it's way to breaking the Guiness World Record for most characters in a fighting game, breaking the record of 56 from Marvel vs. Capcom 2, you have clones to thank for that.

Wrong.

Edit: Before someone calls me out, I know this is fan-made. However, the DragonBall games and Naruto games have boasted over 56 fighters.

Double Edit: "Dragon Ball Z: Budokai Tenkaichi 3 features 161 characters, almost the largest in any fighting game." - Dragon Ball Wiki

 

[FalKoopa]

I admit defeat.

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

Rock Pikmin have more durablity than Purples but less of a "multiplier" to power.

Alph as a whole, however, has more range to his attacks (as he has the arms to chuck his fellow captains one after another without issue) but has less attack.

Due to this, Alph is a more defensive and versatile fighter at the cost of actual power.

(What do you mean it's far easier to /say/ what differences should be instead of actually program and balance it)

Edit: I just wanted to toss out my idea, I know in terms of functionality it'd be far harder to manage

Problem. Blue Pikmin are the durable Pikmin. So now Rock Pikmin are just straight upgrades from blues. And that makes ANOTHER problem. Not only is it a comparison between Purples and Rocks, it's a comparison between ALL the pikmin. That range comment also doesn't make sense since as I believe Olimar can do that in Pikmin 3 as well. (I at least think he can since I know he is playable in mission mode and he should have everyone's abilities). Lastly, sure, Rock Pikmin can do knockback now, but the great thing about purples is how they frontload all the damage. Rock Pikmin would be kinda pathetic in that regard if there only purpose was knockback.

My entire point about Alph and Dark Pit is that if he had added Alph as a clone as well, we'd be seeing less complaints overall. Currently, the fact that Pikmin is still at one slot on the CSS while Kid Icarus can get away with three, is kind of a justifiable ground for people to scream bias.

Even if Alph was a lazy clone, that he is the only alt costume who could not get promoted, despite Pikmin 3 being an important Wii U release, is going to rub people the wrong way.

Eh, don't agree with satisfying people I feel are in the wrong just because they are more loud. :/

 

[Sid-cada]

My problem with the cones is that they took away from other aspects of the game.

Now, I'm not saying that if we lost Doc, Pittoo, and Lucina we would get another character. But who said extra content had to be a character?

Couldn't they port some things from past games instead? Some stages, lost assist trophies and items, etc.? Even more music would be a basic, simple thing to add that would require little to no commitment from the development team, and could even come from non-smash games.

How about a quick new game mode? They already have a way to have multiple fighters assigned to a single player like at the end of Smash Tour and certain challenges, why not make that a mode? Or how about a King of the Hill?

Or, heck, even some extra custom moves, or doubling down on character balancing?


Honestly, even if there wasn't a single character replacing the three clones, I still think they were a time sink that shouldn't have existed.

 

[NintenZ]

Wrong.

So if DBZBT3 features that big of a roster, it's a wonder it's not in the records already.

 

[A Distant Demon]

Its not like they didn't have the means to make them more different,

except they didn't. It's called time constraints

I don't understand how people can be angry about free stuff that doesn't detract from any other part of the game (I guess they could have added trophies but it would be so inferior to free characters it isn'tt worth mentioning) and only adds to it. . .

 

[Frostwraith]

I don't think I would be seen as sane if I went to a bakery and complained that one of the cakes had one extra cherry compared to the other cakes.

 

[NintenZ]

If the developers had extra time I don't think it'd be too out of left feild if we saw Alph and the Koopalings as their own playable characters too. Now that's a big roster.

 

[A Distant Demon]

I don't think I would be seen as sane if I went to a bakery and complained that one of the cakes had one extra cherry compared to the other cakes.

Devil's advocate. This would be more like if there was a neat circle of cherries but another one is added making one (or should I say 3) uneven gaps. It's still pretty silly but I always like over complicating an analogy

 

[FalKoopa]

The cherry in the cake analogy would work if the extra cherry tasted the same as the others. Except it doesn't.

 

[Burruni]

The cherry in the cake analogy would work if the extra cheery tasted the same as the others. Except it doesn't.

The extra cherry is slightly rotted.

If you ate it, it probably wouldn't be that bad.

And you have the ability to toss away the spoiled cherry and try to look at the cake as a whole but you'll see the dent in the frosting where it was.

 

[Pazzo.]

I don't think I would be seen as sane if I went to a bakery and complained that one of the cakes had one extra cherry compared to the other cakes.

Hell and man are never satisfied.

*Understatement of the year*

 

[A Distant Demon]

The cherry in the cake analogy would work if the extra cheery tasted the same as the others. Except it doesn't.

It isn't necessarily a bad cherry though.
technically it would be more like every cherry tastes vastly different but 3 perplexingly taste very similar to 3 others

I always like over complicating an analogy

 

[Morbi]

The analogies do not necessarily address the fact that regardless of whether or not the cherries are rotting, missing, or delicious, they are completely optional. Dark Pit is not.

I do not feel strongly one way or the other. But I do believe that people who complain about his inclusion are not issuing unwarranted complaints. At the same time, the complaints feel as though they are complaints for the sake of complaining.

 

[PrettyIvyPearls22]

Wasn' t Alph almost close to being a clone playable character? Of the three Pikmin 3 captains I actually would not have mind him seeing him actually be playable. Unlike some people, I don't have a problem with clones, the only reason why I would have accepted Alph is because he was my favorite of the three captains from Pikmin 3. But I'm fine with him just being an alternate costume, at least he's somewhat in the game.

 

[Pazzo.]

If you don't like a clone, you don't have to play him/her.

Just ignore the character.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

So let me get this straight...people are complaining about characters that were added...as extras?

Dr. Mario, Lucina and Dark Pit were planned from the start as costumes/alts of their source material. It was not a matter of "add Alph OR Lucina". It was, "what characters can we add that are easy to complete?" Marth, Pit and Mario are great characters to base that off of, with simple ways to create differences.

Olimar already presented issues on the 3DS, and by Sakurai's logic, changing Pikmin traits wouldn't have really made sense.

Now I also saw a comment about, "What about extra content elsewhere?"...that's easy. It's because characters are the biggest selling point. More characters to play as = more enjoyment. A few extra AT's isn't going to make somebody extra hyped. Not that Dark Pit did that himself...

Here's the thing though...the clones in Smash 4 were made the way they were because of time constraints, not because Sakurai was planning them as completely unique characters. I don't know. Anything I say about clones is going to be ignored anyway. Some people will never be pleased. We got a handful of unique characters to play as aside from the clones. If we didn't have Dark Pit, we would only have Lucina and Doc. We wouldn't magically get another character. We don't lose anything from his conclusion.

Yeah, you don't have to praise the game as perfect. Nobody is saying that. It's just that sometimes the complaints about the game come across more as whiny and spoiled as opposed to legitimate critique of the game itself.

 

[FalKoopa]

A better analogy would be a bag od apples with 3 oranges.

Some people don't like that there are oranges when they paid for a bag of apples.

While others prefer to think of the oranges as a bonus.

Other just eat them either way.

And I'll show myself out

 

[whitekirby9]

i stil have no idea why the Ballot is still open...
maybe they just arent taking any more votes...
i want results now .-.

 

[NintenZ]

So let me get this straight...people are complaining about characters that were added...as extras?

Dr. Mario, Lucina and Dark Pit were planned from the start as costumes/alts of their source material. It was not a matter of "add Alph OR Lucina". It was, "what characters can we add that are easy to complete?" Marth, Pit and Mario are great characters to base that off of, with simple ways to create differences.

Olimar already presented issues on the 3DS, and by Sakurai's logic, changing Pikmin traits wouldn't have really made sense.

Now I also saw a comment about, "What about extra content elsewhere?"...that's easy. It's because characters are the biggest selling point. More characters to play as = more enjoyment. A few extra AT's isn't going to make somebody extra hyped. Not that Dark Pit did that himself...

Here's the thing though...the clones in Smash 4 were made the way they were because of time constraints, not because Sakurai was planning them as completely unique characters. I don't know. Anything I say about clones is going to be ignored anyway. Some people will never be pleased. We got a handful of unique characters to play as aside from the clones. if we didn't have Dark Pit, we would only have Lucina and Doc. We wouldn't magically get another character. We don't lose anything from his conclusion.

Yeah, you don't have to praise the game as perfect. Nobody is saying that. It's just that sometimes the complaints about the game come across more as whiny and spoiled as opposed to legitimate critique of the game itself.

We're not losing anything, in fact, if anything, we're getting more!