Official DLC Character Discussion Thread - Read the new sticky/announcement

[NintenZ]

Also, assuming you are correct here (which is s big assumption):

How is the current rumor any different?

We got a rumor of Shovel Knight coming to Smash, and even a day given for it, with the original leaker saying "enjoy the Shovel Knight announcement"... And the actual info turned out to be completely different. And some people still clung to the remnants of the leak/rumor to the end, and the Chorus Kids and Chrom never made it in.

Maybe the "Shovel Knight is in Smash" rumor is "outdated" as well.

These are two completely seperate rumors, anyway the convo ended already, I think we should move on from this.

 

[Koopaul]

First of all, the three Treasures you get in KI1 would have been cool customs. Second, it's already ****ing tedious to unlock em and you want MORE?!?!

That was another problem Sakurai created, by having custom moves so tedious to unlock.

 

[Burruni]

I wonder, does Monolith Soft have any involvement with the development of fighters and the game besides ?

No.
Monolith gave Sakurai's team rights to Xenoblade's musics and characters. At most, they made models for the trophies like Ubisoft for Rayman.

Shulk's inclusion could be more associated to Sakurai being a vocal fan of the game (to the point of tweeting his admiration of a Monado replica that Monolith made) and... y'know, the fact that it was a breath of life into a stagnating genre which, while niche, had a vocal enough fanbase to get it and two associated titles localized against prior plans... an effort that fans have JUST now been able to do despite having FULLY MADE CARTRIDGES of Mother/Earthbound Zero/Earthbound Origins back in the GBA days... if that was the direction you were trying to go with it.

 

[Morbi]

Both Shovel Knight and Shantae namely hinge on the decision of choosing an indie, at which point the two are the name contenders for that position.

IF this situation happens (which I doubt), I prefer Shantae by a wide margin and part of that likely is bias of prefering her titles.

But I have one major point against Butt Butt that can't be refuted yet: Quote & Cave Story.

By that, I don't mean Quote being an end-all be-all for an indie choice despite him being one of the most iconic indie games, arguably started the "revolution" to their notice and its remakes for Nintendo.

I'm talking about it being such an iconic and wildly popular game which first came to us over a decade ago and has gotten nothing besides two remakes. By this I mean practically 1-1 remakes like Super Mario All-Stars or Ocarina of Time 3DS. No real expansion, just update the graphics, tweak little bits here and there, and move on. Shovel Knight is a game not a series right now and one that has been in a cycle or rereleases on just about every platform available (with exclusive bosses tossed about hither and tither) since its release just now coming back around to Nintendo with the amiibo and the expansion of Plagues of Shadows.

Nobody knows how it's going to go from here, if YCG doesn't go on to other titles with callbacks akin to how The Behemoth has jumped fom Alien Hominid to Castle Crashers to BattleBlock Theater to "Game 4." None of these being bad games, mind you, but no series.

Even excluding the GB game on the grounds of it being Capcom's work, Wayforward has given Shantae one of the few iconic games amongst E-Shop titles, a strong 3DS/WiiU title now seeing eastern shores, and another major game going multi-plat coming later this year (by the latest update of the team, which was less than a month ago).

I could try to make a claim that WF would make a Shantae Amiibo for Half-Genie Hero, but that's speculation. Just looking at what we have at hand, I feel that you can call Shantae a series. Shovel Knight stands as a very succesful game.

Just curious, do you feel the same way about Splatoon and the Inklings? I understand the inherent differences between the two franchises, but you emphasized the fact that Shovel Knight was not yet a series. I never really considered the Inklings to be plausible until I learned of their vast and staggering popularity; however, at the same time, I still have my reservations. So, basically, do you believe that the fact that they are only in one game is detrimental to their overall likelihood?

 

[NintenZ]

No.
Monolith gave Sakurai's team rights to Xenoblade's musics and characters. At most, they made models for the trophies like Ubisoft for Rayman.

Shulk's inclusion could be more associated to Sakurai being a vocal fan of the game (to the point of tweeting his admiration of a Monado replica that Monolith made) and... y'know, the fact that it was a breath of life into a stagnating genre which, while niche, had a vocal enough fanbase to get it and two associated titles localized against prior plans... an effort that fans have JUST now been able to do despite having FULLY MADE CARTRIDGES of Mother/Earthbound Zero/Earthbound Origins back in the GBA days... if that was the direction you were trying to go with it.

They also provided that badass remix of the valedictory elegy from Baten Kaitos Origins. They seriously went all out with that one.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Well then, unlike Scoliosis Jones, I disagree that Snake should be included. Because his parent company all but phsycally ***ed over Nintendo. And it's not like Kojima himself ever stood by his statements of wanting to develop a game for Nintendo. Clearly, a company's relationship to Nintendo matters. Hence why we Sonic (where SEGA and Nintendo pretty much has an intertwined history) instead of Rayman (where Ubisoft threw Nintendo under the bus)

First of all, it isn't a companies fault if their product isn't going to sell on Nintendo consoles. It is not their job to pander to Nintendo and release it for some arbitrary reason.

Second, Kojima can't just go and make a Metal Gear game for a Nintendo console of his own choice. He worked for Konami. He can say whatever (I would imagine he meant it...he liked the tech of the 3DS and made a game), but he isn't in complete control of what products get made for which console.

Third, Sakurai himself has said the characters themselves have to have merit to be added. The characters thus far have shown that. If Ubisoft screwed Nintendo over so bad, then why do we have 3 Rayman Trophies in the game? Not to mention Sonic is like Top Tier in terms of a 3rd party. I would argue that Rayman isn't.

Not to mention that the most recent entry to Source Gaming mentioned that the "relationship with Nintendo" argument isn't THAT important. As I said earlier, it's a courtesy, not a necessity.

 

[Burruni]

Just curious, do you feel the same way about Splatoon and the Inklings? I understand the inherent differences between the two franchises, but you emphasized the fact that Shovel Knight was not yet a series. I never really considered the Inklings to be plausible until I learned of their vast and staggering popularity; however, at the same time, I still have my reservations. So, basically, do you believe that the fact that they are only in one game is detrimental to their overall likelihood?

No, I don't think that status is detrimental... and that's a bit hypocritical, I admit. But I have three differences that make the cases distinct enough.

1) It's first party. This to me will stick as a very thick line.

2) The fact that Splatoon is, and has been since launch, a massive success of a title on the worldwide scale exceeding Nintendo's projections (physically having less copies than demanded by the public). The pre-release hype built up enough eye-catching for the Mii Costumes to be made and THAT is striking by itself.

3) It's spread so far across the actual game, the OST selling great, and the actual official manga being supported that I don't see it NOT being continued. The last time we saw a Nintendo IP go multi-media and have this level of infectious success was... well... .

Yes, it currently is just a game. Yes, there's no PROOF that it will be a series (The title Spla2n still needs to be a thing). However, it's a first party home run of a title that is the entire market with Nintendo and the genre (unless you want to stretch and include ). They're two separate beasts to me.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

You know, if Kojima made Mineral Cog Liquid with the sneaky stealth guy called Little Boss you guys would want indies amiright?

 

[NintenZ]

No, I don't think that status is detrimental... and that's a bit hypocritical, I admit. But I have three differences that make the cases distinct enough.

1) It's first party. This to me will stick as a very thick line.

2) The fact that Splatoon is, and has been since launch, a massive success of a title on the worldwide scale exceeding Nintendo's projections (physically having less copies than demanded by the public).

3) It's spread so far across the actual game, the OST selling great, and the actual official manga being supported that I don't see it NOT being continued. The last time we saw a Nintendo IP go multi-media and have this level of infectious success was... well... .

Yes, it currently is just a game. Yes, there's no PROOF that it will be a series (The title Spla2ne still needs to be a thing). However, it's a first party home run of a title that is the entire market with Nintendo and the genre (unless you want to stretch and include ). They're two separate beasts to me.

I always thought it would be good, but not have the best sales. Needless to say I think we can all say we were impressed.

 

[Burruni]

I always thought it would be good, but not have the best sales. Needless to say I think we can all say we were impressed.

It hit 1 million copies faster than Super Mario Maker.

And it didn't need an hour of an E3 direct to do it.

 

[NintenZ]

It hit 1 million copies faster than Super Mario Maker.

And it didn't need an hour of an E3 direct to do it.

IT HAD THIS!!!

 

[Polan]

Because Nintendo only needs to license the name and tech. Nintendo doesn't pay a DIME on the Amiibo, Yacht Club does that. For a Smash character, Sakurai has to 100% do everything himself (he and his team). He and his whole team have to get paid to produce characters. Yacht Club is producing the Amiibo entirely on their own, Nintendo just allowed them to make it.


Of COURSE the Amiibo is the far easier and cheaper option.

Sakurai's DLC team is small so that slashes costs down rather considerably. And digital distribution is far easier, hassle free and less costly than the physical distribution of an Amiibo.

 

[Baskerville]

Yes, Dark Pit was easy to make, but the problem we have to question is: why was he made in the first place? Like, what point is there? His differences to Pit are negligible. There's literally no reason for them to be separate characters, especially when the argument comes down to "Dark Pit can't use the Three Sacred Treasures!" even though none of the Koopalings ever became Shadow Mario. Its simply a pointless excuse, almost as if he was only included so the roster would look a bit larger and he can fill out a slot for another unlockable character to make it seem bigger. They should've just made more existing characters unlockable instead.

You kinda answered your own question.
He didn't take a whole lot of man power to create anyway.

 

[Burruni]

Sakurai's DLC team is small so that slashes costs down rather considerably. And digital distribution is far easier, hassle free and less costly than the physical distribution of an Amiibo.

Except....
Nintendo sold the rights to let YCG make an amiibo, whose profits are likely shared between the two companies.
They had effectively no cost and only possible gain.

Sakurai's team may be small but it is taking them months at a time to make fighters. Considering we had 51 fighters on the base roster, I don't think it took over 4 years to make the game (and that's only at 1 fighter a month).

And.... how much more beneficial would it be to sell a currently region-exclusive on notoroiety character who they'd have to pay the rights for instead of a relatively equally popular 1st Party character?

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

Er...Ziplash releases in a few days and Nintendo barely advertised it. They also said that if Ziplash doesn't sell well enough it'll get killed off. I wouldn't call that 'doing well'

R.I.P. Chibi Robo (2005 - 2015)

 

[The Light Music Club]

It hit 1 million copies faster than Super Mario Maker.

And it didn't need an hour of an E3 direct to do it.

Did you watch treehouse of E3 14? They showed the game so much that I decided not to buy it. The TH showed me how repetitive and boring it was by showing over an hour of it at E3.

 

[NintenZ]

Er...Ziplash releases in a few days and Nintendo barely advertised it. They also said that if Ziplash doesn't sell well enough it'll get killed off. I wouldn't call that 'doing well'

It's not even a main-series Chibi-Robo game, how do they expect it to sell well!?

 

[Morbi]

It's not even a main-series Chibi-Robo game, how do they expect it to sell well!?

I feel bad for Chibi-Robo fans; however, at the same time, I did not really want him in Smash. So, this is sort of good news?

 

[Cutie Gwen]

It's not even a main-series Chibi-Robo game, how do they expect it to sell well!?

I dunno, but it's ****ing dumb that Nintendo only knows how to advertise squids and everything else gets neglected. W101 is my favourite example.

R.I.P. Chibi Robo (2005 - 2015)

It's their own fault honestly. If you say it's probably the last game unless it sells well, something that has yet to happen for Chibi Robo iirc, at least ****ing advertise it!

 

[FalKoopa]

You kinda answered your own question.
He didn't take a whole lot of man power to create anyway.

The better question is why was Alph not made a character instead of Dark Pit. He would have been better received.

 

[The Light Music Club]

I am glad we got DP, if not, I wouldn't have his victory theme as my ringtone.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I feel bad for Chibi-Robo fans; however, at the same time, I did not really want him in Smash. So, this is sort of good news?

Don't feel bad. I saw loads of people claiming it should die because it's not a traditional CR game despite only 1 of the 2 games that are traditional being released outside Japan. Petty ****s

 

[NintenZ]

I dunno, but it's ****ing dumb that Nintendo only knows how to advertise squids and everything else gets neglected. W101 is my favourite example.

It's their own fault honestly. If you say it's probably the last game unless it sells well, something that has yet to happen for Chibi Robo iirc, at least ****ing advertise it!

Well it's very popular in Japan, so it'll probably sell well there, I think?

 

[Burruni]

Welp.
I didn't hear about Chibi-Robo as a series being cut off if Zip-Lash didn't sell well.

Gonna go subtly remove him from my Smash 5 rosters.

 

[Baskerville]

The better question is why was Alph not made a character instead of Dark Pit. He would have been better received.

Alph would've taken more hours to be his own character since Olimar's design with the Pikmin is a lot more complicated compared to Pit. With the Pikmin having AI issues in the 3DS version, I can see why they chose to not go for Alph.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Well it's very popular in Japan, so it'll probably sell well there, I think?

I don't think his games ever did well to begin with

Welp.
I didn't hear about Chibi-Robo as a series being cut off if Zip-Lash didn't sell well.

Gonna go subtly remove him from my Smash 5 rosters.

Wait about 15 years, then he's a viable retro character

 

[Burruni]

I don't think his games ever did well to begin with

Wait about 15 years, then he's a viable retro character

And I'll still be waiting for Donbe & Hikari.

 

[FalKoopa]

Alph would've taken more hours to be his own character since Olimar's design with the Pikmin is a lot more complicated compared to Pit. With the Pikmin having AI issues in the 3DS version, I can see why they chose to not go for Alph.

It's a little hypocritical then. If Alph is different enough that making him separate would require more work, why should we be satisfied when he's only an alt?

Making him a separate character will negligible differences still looks like a win-win to me.

 

[Burruni]

It's a little hypocritical then. If Alph is different enough that making him separate would require more work, why should we be satisfied that he's only an alt?

Making him a separate character will negligible differences still looks like a win-win to me.

Muh Sakurai Bias.

Honestly, I feel like that would've been better just so people would complain less about "Over-Representation" for Kid Icarus and gotten around one of the most salt-inducing additions of the series yet.

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

And I'll still be waiting for Donbe & Hikari.

Still waiting for the day Takamaru rises from his Assist Trophy grave in the future.

Plz make that new hack n' slash Murasame Castle game Kamiya-San. ;_;

 

[NintenZ]

I don't think his games ever did well to begin with

Wait about 15 years, then he's a viable retro character

I always thought his franchise was popular in Japan, was I always wrong about that?

 

[Burruni]

I always thought his franchise was popular in Japan, was I always wrong about that?

It was niche. A fairly vocal but overall small fanbase. Advance Wars being a less extreme version of this.

 

[JaidynReiman]

The Amiibo and change in gameplay for Chibi-Robo is ENTIRELY due to the fact that this series has never done well. And honestly, although it probably won't sell that well, I think it'll still probably be the best-selling Chiib Robo game. The fact that it comes packaged with an Amiibo alone will increase the amount of sales it will receive.


However, at the same time, the fact that this game is being made as an act of desperation kinds tells you that this has nothing to do with getting Chibi-Robo into Smash at all and entirely to do with the fact that the series is dead if they don't find something to make it work. 2D platformers are massively popular, especially nowadays despite the saturation. They'll drop in popularity, though, of course, due to such saturation.

It's not even a main-series Chibi-Robo game, how do they expect it to sell well!?

It IS a main-series Chibi-Robo game. You're completely missing the point if you deny the fact that it is.


Its a main series Chibi-Robo game because the old games sold so god awful that they wanted to try something different to reinvigorate interest in the IP. And since its a 2D platformer and has an Amiibo to go along with it, even if its not being advertised well I STILL think it'll probably sell better than every other Chibi-Robo game. I plan to pick it up eventually as well (its just not high on my priority list).

I always thought his franchise was popular in Japan, was I always wrong about that?

The first two Golden Sun games (and maybe even Dark Dawn) have sold more copies worldwide than the entire Chibi-Robo franchise.


Let's also not forget Rhythm Heaven, where one game sold 3m copies in Japan alone.


The lifetime sales of Chibi-Robo are about 700k roughly. Maybe its decently popular in Japan, but compared to other unrepresented franchises like Rhythm Heaven and Golden Sun its just not even close.

It was niche. A fairly vocal but overall small fanbase. Advance Wars being a less extreme version of this.

Yeah, Advance Wars is worse off than GS/RH, but isn't nearly as bad as Chibi-Robo. Earlier Advance Wars games have managed to hit around 700k. I'm not sure if any ever topped 1m.

 

[NintenZ]

The Amiibo and change in gameplay for Chibi-Robo is ENTIRELY due to the fact that this series has never done well. And honestly, although it probably won't sell that well, I think it'll still probably be the best-selling Chiib Robo game. The fact that it comes packaged with an Amiibo alone will increase the amount of sales it will receive.


However, at the same time, the fact that this game is being made as an act of desperation kinds tells you that this has nothing to do with getting Chibi-Robo into Smash at all and entirely to do with the fact that the series is dead if they don't find something to make it work. 2D platformers are massively popular, especially nowadays despite the saturation. They'll drop in popularity, though, of course, due to such saturation.




It IS a main-series Chibi-Robo game. You're completely missing the point if you deny the fact that it is.


Its a main series Chibi-Robo game because the old games sold so god awful that they wanted to try something different to reinvigorate interest in the IP. And since its a 2D platformer and has an Amiibo to go along with it, even if its not being advertised well I STILL think it'll probably sell better than every other Chibi-Robo game. I plan to pick it up eventually as well (its just not high on my priority list).




The first two Golden Sun games (and maybe even Dark Dawn) have sold more copies worldwide than the entire Chibi-Robo franchise.


Let's also not forget Rhythm Heaven, where one game sold 3m copies in Japan alone.


The lifetime sales of Chibi-Robo are about 700k roughly. Maybe its decently popular in Japan, but compared to other unrepresented franchises like Rhythm Heaven and Golden Sun its just not even close.



Yeah, Advance Wars is worse off than GS/RH, but isn't nearly as bad as Chibi-Robo. Earlier Advance Wars games have managed to hit around 700k. I'm not sure if any ever topped 1m.

So that explains why it's such a departure, they wanted better sales. I can believe the Golden Sun franchise sold better, but Dark Dawn? Also, this game seems like a reboot, but wasn't the last game also a reboot and on the exact same platform?

 

[Burruni]

TL;DR version: Chibi Robo's pretty unsuccesful.

I'm gonna admit. I didn't know that Chibi-Robo was THAT poor in how it did. I have only played the first game and thought that he had a quirkiness in his arsenal being largely based on household objects, namely focusing on cleaning means, that would lend him to be a weird and almost comical approach to making a fighter like and .

But... jesus.

I didn't expect it to be floundering that bad.

Even 's games, the weakest selling of Fire Emblem as a whole (when looking at world wide releases) averaged half a million copies each.

Edit: The weakest selling games of an establishedly niche series, mind you.

 

[Baskerville]

It's a little hypocritical then. If Alph is different enough that making him separate would require more work, why should we be satisfied when he's only an alt?

Making him a separate character will negligible differences still looks like a win-win to me.

Perhaps Sakurai thought just having him playable as an alt was enough. idk

 

[JaidynReiman]

You kinda answered your own question.
He didn't take a whole lot of man power to create anyway.

That's my whole point. He was only separated to make the roster look larger, and honestly that really drives me nuts.

So that explains why it's such a departure, they wanted better sales. I can believe the Golden Sun franchise sold better, but not Dark Dawn. Also, this game seems like a reboot, but wasn't the last game also a reboot and on the exact same platform?

Dark Dawn is iffy because we don't know exact sales numbers. If VGChartz is accurate on DD, then Dark Dawn sold 700k, which is about as much as the entire Chibi-Robo franchise combined. However, we don't have any real numbers from NA or Europe, so its probably around 4-500k instead.


Still, both GS1 and GS2 individually sold better than the entire Chibi-Robo franchise.

I'm gonna admit. I didn't know that Chibi-Robo was THAT poor in how it did. I have only played the first game and thought that he had a quirkiness in his arsenal being largely based on household objects, namely focusing on cleaning means, that would lend him to be a weird and almost comical approach to making a fighter like and .

But... jesus.

I didn't expect it to be floundering that bad.

Even 's games, the weakest selling of Fire Emblem as a whole (when looking at world wide releases) averaged half a million copies each.

I don't think its screwed. I do think this game will sell way better than the past games simply because they changed up the formula so heavily and sold it with an Amiibo.

Sakurai's DLC team is small so that slashes costs down rather considerably. And digital distribution is far easier, hassle free and less costly than the physical distribution of an Amiibo.

Have you forgotten the fact that Nintendo is paying NOTHING towards the production of the Amiibo? Like we've REPEATEDLY stated? YACHT CLUB GAMES is making the Amiibo themselves, Nintendo has NOTHING to do with it whatsoever except allowing them to make it. That's it.


And Sakurai himself stated in the past that to make DLC the characters have to be able to sell, because its expensive to produce them. It doesn't matter how they are released or how big the team is. How big the team is does not change how much it costs to make a character. The team is only smaller because they're producing less content.

 

[EdgeTheLucas]

Even if Chibi-Robo "fails" and isn't a huge hit with the new game, I'd still want him in Smash if I enjoyed his games a lot (I haven't played the games, though I plan on getting the new game and hunting down a copy of the original on Nintendo GameCube).

My want for characters doesn't correlate with how much money their games make, you know. I think that's a little petty and fickle. Otherwise I wouldn't have voted for Wonder Red twice (he's from a game I DID play, so I can see where Chibi-Robo fans are coming from).

 

[NintenZ]

That's my whole point. He was only separated to make the roster look larger, and honestly that really drives me nuts.



Dark Dawn is iffy because we don't know exact sales numbers. If VGChartz is accurate on DD, then Dark Dawn sold 700k, which is about as much as the entire Chibi-Robo franchise combined. However, we don't have any real numbers from NA or Europe, so its probably around 4-500k instead.


Still, both GS1 and GS2 individually sold better than the entire Chibi-Robo franchise.




I don't think its screwed. I do think this game will sell way better than the past games simply because they changed up the formula so heavily and sold it with an Amiibo.




Have you forgotten the fact that Nintendo is paying NOTHING towards the production of the Amiibo? Like we've REPEATEDLY stated? YACHT CLUB GAMES is making the Amiibo themselves, Nintendo has NOTHING to do with it whatsoever except allowing them to make it. That's it.


And Sakurai himself stated in the past that to make DLC the characters have to be able to sell, because its expensive to produce them. It doesn't matter how they are released or how big the team is. How big the team is does not change how much it costs to make a character. The team is only smaller because they're producing less content.

Wow, that's very sad. I can't believe now we're getting a reboot of a reboot, which is completely different from said reboot.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Even if Chibi-Robo "fails" and isn't a huge hit with the new game, I'd still want him in Smash if I enjoyed his games a lot (I haven't played the games, though I plan on getting the new game and hunting down a copy of the original on Nintendo GameCube).

My want for characters doesn't correlate with how much money their games make, you know. I think that's a little petty and fickle. Otherwise I wouldn't have voted for Wonder Red twice (he's from a game I DID play, so I can see where Chibi-Robo fans are coming from).

however, sales are a pretty major factor. It's safe to say successful franchises have it easier than unsuccessful ones, and now that Chibi is kill, he's got no chances anymore