Official DLC Character Discussion Thread - Read the new sticky/announcement

[Baskerville]

That's my whole point. He was only separated to make the roster look larger, and honestly that really drives me nuts.

It drives you up the wall that they basically gave people a bonus?

 

[Ura]

I didn't know that about Chibi-Robo. Based on that, here's my predictions for Smash 5 newcomers.

Confident

1. Inkling
2. Dixie Kong
3. Takamaru
4. Rayman
5. FE15/16/17 Character
6. Heihachi Mishima
7. 7th/8th/9th Gen PKMN
8. A Pre-Existing or New Mario Character

Somewhat Confident

9. Bomberman
10. Viridi
11. A LoZ Character
12. A Kirby Character

 

[Cutie Gwen]

It drives you up the wall that they basically gave people a bonus?

Dark Pit and Pit barely feel different though, the issue Jayden has is how it feels like they literally copypasta'd Pit so he'd be on the roster twice. I have to agree as I've been playing the two recently and can't tell much differences

 

[Morbi]

Even if Chibi-Robo "fails" and isn't a huge hit with the new game, I'd still want him in Smash if I enjoyed his games a lot (I haven't played the games, though I plan on getting the new game and hunting down a copy of the original on Nintendo GameCube).

My want for characters doesn't correlate with how much money their games make, you know. I think that's a little petty and fickle. Otherwise I wouldn't have voted for Wonder Red twice (he's from a game I DID play, so I can see where Chibi-Robo fans are coming from).

Sales figures in regard to roster selection is a delicate balancing act. If sales were the single most important thing, the roster would be over-saturated with Mario, Zelda, and Pokemon. But, to be fair, those series are predominately the ones with the most representatives. Chibi-Robo represents an extreme. The amount of money his games made would not be relevant if those aforementioned sales were not so utterly abysmal.

 

[FalKoopa]

It drives you up the wall that they basically gave people a bonus?

Probably it seems just too lazy. The other clones have something that separates them. Dark Pit has so few differences that he's considered the same even at competitive level play, let alone casual play.

It's understandable.

 

[Baskerville]

Dark Pit and Pit barely feel different though, the issue Jayden has is how it feels like they literally copypasta'd Pit so he'd be on the roster twice. I have to agree as I've been playing the two recently and can't tell much differences

Well, yeah that much I perfectly understand.
But still, a bonus is a bonus.

 

[LIQUID12A]

If you ask me, the clones are effectively the same as day 1 cosmetic DLC that we oh so despise that alters little to nothing gameplay-wise. Except in this case, you got them for free.

The effort required to make them was comparatively little to the point that it was inconsequential to the main development cycle, just like artists are put to work on extra things once a game goes gold(because you can't just fire them). I would understand the hate a little better if the clone trio were DLC, then it would genuinely feel like a ripoff...but it's free.

Plus you can simply ignore them if you're not pursuing every single challenge and/or trophy.

 

[Kenith]

Probably it seems just too lazy. The other clones have something that separates them. Dark Pit has so few differences that he's considered the same even at competitive level play, let alone casual play.

It's understandable.

Um, Lucina is the same way.
She has so little difference from Marth she has to be played the same as him.

 

[Burruni]

If you ask me, the clones are effectively the same as day 1 cosmetic DLC that we oh so despise that alters little to nothing gameplay-wise. Except in this case, you got them for free.

The effort required to make them was comparatively little to the point that it was inconsequential to the main development cycle, just like artists are put to work on extra things once a game goes gold(because you can't just fire them). I would understand the hate a little better if the clone trio were DLC, then it would genuinely feel like a ripoff...but it's free.

Plus you can simply ignore them if you're not pursuing every single challenge and/or trophy.

It's namely Dark Pit that gets hate out of anyone because, outside of final smashes, I believe that it's been confirmed that 3 moves have any differences what so ever? Being his f-tilt across the board is weaker, his neutral B has typical "slower, more damaging, but curve less" and his side b doing MAYBE different damage but launching near vertical instead of the slight angle over the horizon that the Upperdash does.

It's that he is the single most closely related clone-to-fighter difference in the series that people get irritated.

Um, Lucina is the same way.
She has so little difference from Marth she has to be played the same as him.

She has a minor change across the full moveset. She has the, effectively, same playstyle because it is the same moveset just with weaker, standardized properites that go across it all.

Both are... debatable on laziness, I'm sure, but it's two conditions of it.

 

[Wintropy]

Um, Lucina is the same way.
She has so little difference from Marth she has to be played the same as him.

Nah, you don't have to worry about tippers with her. That's a big deal.

Post-patch 1.1.1, the risk / reward ratio between tipper / non-tipper is even greater, so Lucina is safer now if you're concerned with missing the tip.

It's namely Dark Pit that gets hate out of anyone because, outside of final smashes, I believe that it's been confirmed that 3 moves have any differences what so ever? Being his f-tilt across the board is weaker, his neutral B has typical "slower, more damaging, but curve less" and his side b doing MAYBE different damage but launching near vertical instead of the slight angle over the horizon that the Upperdash does.

It's that he is the single most closely related clone-to-fighter difference in the series that people get irritated.

Neutral-b, side-b and f-tilt have differences (f-tilt's being very, very, very, very tiny).

You've got Upperdash and Electroshock mixed up, dear: Upperdash tosses the opponent vertically, Electroshock with the angled trajectory instead.

 

[FalKoopa]

Um, Lucina is the same way.
She has so little difference from Marth she has to be played the same as him.

Although her gimmick ultimately causes her to be weaker than Marth, it's tangible enough that theri forums are separate. It's not a huge difference gameplay-wise, but data wise it's pretty significant - the damage values for all her sword moves had to to adjusted.

Dark Pit's differences are limited to just 3 attacks - his arrows (a bit more controllable), the electroshock arm (sends opponents at a different angle) and his Final Smash. That's all.

 

[Wintropy]

2015.

Still debating Dark Pit's validity.

I don't think Sakurai intended for this.

Sigh.

 

[Morbi]

Although her gimmick ultimately causes her to be weaker than Marth, it's tangible enough that theri forums are separate. It's not a huge difference gameplay-wise, but data wise it's pretty significant - the damage values for all her sword moves had to to adjusted.

Dark Pit's differences are limited to just 3 attacks - his arrows (a bit more controllable), the electroshock arm (sends opponents at a different angle) and his Final Smash. That's all.

So basically, both of their differences are almost entirely negligible? Therein lies the lack of difference. Lucina has a minor move-set wide difference whereas Dark Pit has three attacks that are substantially different. They are both poor excuses for clone characters.

 

[Kenith]

Although her gimmick ultimately causes her to be weaker than Marth, it's tangible enough that theri forums are separate. It's not a huge difference gameplay-wise, but data wise it's pretty significant - the damage values for all her sword moves had to to adjusted.

Dark Pit's differences are limited to just 3 attacks - his arrows (a bit more controllable), the electroshock arm (sends opponents at a different angle) and his Final Smash. That's all.

Ok, I see what you mean now, but when it comes down to it, they both have very little gameplay differences from the original.
Dr. Mario, on the other hand...

 

[JaidynReiman]

It drives you up the wall that they basically gave people a bonus?

It drives me up the wall that they pointlessly made him a separate character when he's barely different at all just to drive the size of the roster up. He has no real differences from Pit at all. All the differences are negligible. Its as if you literally made Dark Link a separate character. (Frankly Dark Samus wouldn't be half bad, since at least Dark Samus is Metroid Prime and is totally different from Samus entirely, though I still don't like the idea of a character almost exactly the same in appearance being a separate character.)

So basically, both of their differences are almost entirely negligible? Therein lies the lack of difference. Lucina has a minor move-set wide difference whereas Dark Pit has three attacks that are substantially different. They are both poor excuses for clone characters.

Lucina's change isn't really that negligible since it applies to almost the entirety of her moveset. And Dark Pit's "differences" are barely different at all. Final Smashes don't even matter that much in the long run. And with Roy, there's no need to have Lucina either (Lucina is a decent justification without Roy).

Ok, I see what you mean now, but when it comes down to it, they both have very little gameplay differences from the original.
Dr. Mario, on the other hand...

Dr. Mario I have zero problems with.

 

[Frostwraith]

I don't mind the very minute differences that Lucina and Dark Pit have because they were treated as bonus character additions. They were intended to be alts, after all. It makes perfect sense why they're designed like they are.

From a development standpoint, it's quite logical why they didn't get so many changes. They weren't an essential part of the game like the other characters or main game modes. Even their balancing process was only done against their counterparts.

2015.

Still debating Dark Pit's validity.

I don't think Sakurai intended for this.

Sigh.

Welcome to the Smash Bros. fanbase, where every single little aspect of the game must be scrutinized like how fungi decompose a corpse's flesh till they reach the bone.

 

[Wintropy]

Dr. Mario, on the other hand...

THANK YOU.

It makes me sad when people say Doc is the same as Mario.

I mean...

They don't play even remotely the same.

 

[Kenith]

And with Roy, there's no need to have Lucina either (Lucina is a decent justification without Roy).

I die a little inside every time I hear "Roy makes Lucina irrelevant" or vice versa.

 

[FalKoopa]

So basically, both of their differences are almost entirely negligible? Therein lies the lack of difference. Lucina has a minor move-set wide difference whereas Dark Pit has three attacks that are substantially different. They are both poor excuses for clone characters.

Only the Elctroshock Arm and the Final Smash are "substantially" different.
My comment was moreso about the amount of work that went into each clone. Lucina needed a lot more work, even if the end result wasn't much different.

2015.

Still debating Dark Pit's validity.

I don't think Sakurai intended for this.

Sigh.

Well, we also had ROB doubters well into 2013.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

THANK YOU.

It makes me sad when people say Doc is the same as Mario.

I mean...

They don't play even remotely the same.

They are only the same in terms of actual characters, but the difference in gameplay is very noticeable

Welcome to the Smash Bros. fanbase, where every single little aspect of the game must be scrutinized like how fungi decompose a corpse's flesh till they reach the bone.

Hey, we bought the game with our money, it's expensive so if there's any complaint, it's justified

 

[Wintropy]

Well, we also had ROB doubters well into 2013.

Really?

Wow.

How can you not love this face?

Beep-boop~

 

[Burruni]

Really?

Wow.

How can you not love this face?

Beep-boop~

Speaking of which

Did they EVER fix the glitch about his eyes not expressing properly when playing online?

 

[Morbi]

Only the Elctroshock Arm and the Final Smash are "substantially" different.
My comment was moreso about the amount of work that went into each clone. Lucina needed a lot more work, even if the end result wasn't much different.


Well, we also had ROB doubters well into 2013.

I just miss Melee clones, they were low effort, but they were not pointless.

I will doubt R.O.B. well into 20XX.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Really?

Wow.

How can you not love this face?

Beep-boop~

ROB's always going to be one of my favs, he's quirky, charming and he made lots of money! What's not to love?

 

[Frostwraith]

I die a little inside every time I hear "Roy makes Lucina irrelevant" or vice versa.

You're not alone.

Marth, Roy and Lucina have clear differences between all three. Roy is more of a semi-clone, sure, but the essence is the same: variation of Marth's moveset where the sweetspot is at the base of the blade instead of the tip.

Lucina's moveset is a variation of Marth with damage evened out throughout the blade, meaning it doesn't matter where do you hit with the sword.

Marth =/= Roy =/= Lucina

Hey, we bought the game with our money, it's expensive so if there's any complaint, it's justified

I don't think what's clearly a last-minute bonus addition is a deal breaker for a game as content packed as Smash is.

WAH WAH WAH THEY ADDED A CLONE CHARACTER IN THE LAST WEEK OF DEVELOPMENT WAH WAH WAH, I'M NO LONGER GIVING UP €50 ON THE GAME DESPITE IT BEING CRAMMED WITH CONTENT AND TONS OF CHARACTER VARIETY WAH WAH WAH

It's pretty absurd.

Only the Elctroshock Arm and the Final Smash are "substantially" different.
My comment was moreso about the amount of work that went into each clone. Lucina needed a lot more work, even if the end result wasn't much different.

Internal data shows that Dark Pit was the very last character added to the game. If it isn't telling how much of a second thought he was, I'm not sure what it is.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

You're not alone.

Marth, Roy and Lucina have clear differences between all three. Roy is more of a semi-clone, sure, but the essence is the same: variation of Marth's moveset where the sweetspot is at the base of the blade instead of the tip.

Lucina's moveset is a variation of Marth with damage evened out throughout the blade, meaning it doesn't matter where do you hit with the sword.

Marth =/= Roy =/= Lucina


I don't think what's clearly a last-minute bonus addition is a deal breaker for a game as content packed as Smash is.

WAH WAH WAH THEY ADDED A CLONE CHARACTER IN THE LAST WEEK OF DEVELOPMENT WAH WAH WAH, I'M NO LONGER GIVING UP €50 ON THE GAME DESPITE IT BEING CRAMMED WITH CONTENT AND TONS OF CHARACTER VARIETY WAH WAH WAH

It's pretty absurd.


Internal data shows that Dark Pit was the very last character added to the game. If it isn't telling how much of a second thought he was, I'm not sure what it is.

Here's the thing. Not only did the game cost a tenner more than you said, but if they feel the same, what's the point? Padding. Gamers really don't like padding. I know you don't care as you're kind off a deafeatist(I think that's the word I'm looking for) but the economyis getting worse. It's not that Dark Pit killed off sales, but because there's absolutely nothing noticeable about him. It's like paying for a box of chocolates full price, but one's missing I guess, you expect better than that

 

[FalKoopa]

Internal data shows that Dark Pit was the very last character added to the game. If it isn't telling how much of a second thought he was, I'm not sure what it is.

I see. I only wish he had second thoughts on Alph instead.

WAH WAH WAH THEY ADDED A CLONE CHARACTER IN THE LAST WEEK OF DEVELOPMENT WAH WAH WAH, I'M NO LONGER GIVING UP €50 ON THE GAME DESPITE IT BEING CRAMMED WITH CONTENT AND TONS OF CHARACTER VARIETY WAH WAH WAH

To be fair, we do have a right to complain if we don't like something. A clone may not be a deal-breaker, but just because we bought the game doesn't mean we're forced to be satisfied with it.

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

FalKoopa
I'm going to tell you why I think Alph probably wasn't made into a character slot.

Balance.

Here's the thing. As it stands, Purple pikmin act like how Rock Pikmin probably should act. So naturally, if a character with Rock Pikmin were added, they would most likely change purple pikmin. Otherwise, they would be exactly the same and there would be even less of a point then Dark Pit. Am I correct in this assumption?

But the thing is, Olimar NEEDs purples to act like Rock Pikmin. Purples, are essentially "get off mes," due to the fact they can go past certain projectiles and deal knockback to an opponent. Without it, Olimar has barely any defense when he is a defensive character.

I just don't see how you can make purples work without making them too overpowered or too underpowered. If you give them a stun mechanic instead for example...you now have the opportunity to throw three possible stun projectiles at a time...And if you get the first or second one, you could get a guaranteed free purple pikmin smash attack.

 

[Burruni]

Similarly, do we have lists for the previous Smash titles for who was the last one to cross the line?

I know in 64, was a fairly late choice and done due to a mixture of popularity via the show and ease to make with Kirby's data.
In Melee, we got our 6 clones late in to help fill out the roster.
Brawl, 's addition threw a wrench in development and were at least amongst the last ones finished (thus lack roles in SSE).

 

[Wintropy]

Here's the thing. Not only did the game cost a tenner more than you said, but if they feel the same, what's the point? Padding. Gamers really don't like padding. I know you don't care as you're kind off a deafeatist(I think that's the word I'm looking for) but the economyis getting worse. It's not that Dark Pit killed off sales, but because there's absolutely nothing noticeable about him. It's like paying for a box of chocolates full price, but one's missing I guess, you expect better than that

No.

It's like paying for a box of chocolates and finding out they snuck in an extra coconut cream.

I really don't get the "padding is terrible and obscene" thing.

The game doesn't rely on padding, it's TOTALLY FREE EXTRA CONTENT on top of a very very very very good game.

FalKoopa
I'm going to tell you why I think Alph probably wasn't made into a character slot.

Balance.

Here's the thing. As it stands, Purple pikmin act like how Rock Pikmin probably should act. So naturally, if a character with Rock Pikmin were added, they would most likely change purple pikmin. Otherwise, they would be exactly the same and there would be even less of a point then Dark Pit. Am I correct in this assumption?

But the thing is, Olimar NEEDs purples to act like Rock Pikmin. Purples, are essentially "get off mes," due to the fact they can go past certain projectiles and deal knockback to an opponent. Without it, Olimar has barely any defense when he is a defensive character.

I just don't see how you can make purples work without making them too overpowered or too underpowered. If you give them a stun mechanic instead for example...you now have the opportunity to throw three possible stun projectiles at a time...And if you get the first or second one, you could get a guaranteed free purple pikmin smash attack.

Quote this.

Keep this.

Remember this.

This is perfection.

 

[NintenZ]

Am I one of the only people who finds Dark Pit a justified addition?

 

[N3ON]

Padding for Melee was excusable because without it the roster would've only increased by 8... and would've only been 20.

But when the roster is like... pushing fifty, padding is pretty unnecessary as far as I'm concerned.

I think the vast majority of people would've been equally satisfied with the roster if it was minus Mario: Now with Stethoscope!, Long Hair Marth, and Edgy Pit.

 

[Zerp]

WAH WAH WAH THEY ADDED A CLONE CHARACTER IN THE LAST WEEK OF DEVELOPMENT WAH WAH WAH, I'M NO LONGER GIVING UP €50 ON THE GAME DESPITE IT BEING CRAMMED WITH CONTENT AND TONS OF CHARACTER VARIETY WAH WAH WAH

I think the main reason everyone complains so much (Including me) is because we all love Smash Bros, not the other way around, we just really want to see it be the best game it could possibly be, that's why it's so disappointing when it has even the most minor of flaws. Does Smash having super minor flaws make it a bad game that's not worth my money? No! But it does mean there's still room for improvement, and that's where we, as consumers come into play, it's our job to let Nintendo know what we want and what kinds of things we don't really want. Or at least that's how I see it .

 

[Cutie Gwen]

No.

It's like paying for a box of chocolates and finding out they snuck in an extra coconut cream.

I really don't get the "padding is terrible and obscene" thing.

The game doesn't rely on padding, it's TOTALLY FREE EXTRA CONTENT on top of a very very very very good game.

However, these clones are so samey to the point you don't feel much of a difference. Point is, they spent time on something that makes no sense. Imagine if in say, Uprising 2, there are 2 weapons that are so similar the only difference is the name. Don't bring up the RNG stats as that's what equipment does in Smash. Just seeing something rehashed isn't good in the eyes of many

 

[Baskerville]

Internal data shows that Dark Pit was the very last character added to the game. If it isn't telling how much of a second thought he was, I'm not sure what it is.

Oh he was the last one added? Well that does explain a lot.

Really?

Wow.

How can you not love this face?

Beep-boop~

Y'know, I actually hated him when I first unlocked him in Brawl.
Now, it's more indifference.
on the other hand always had a spot on my heart.

 

[Morbi]

Am I one of the only people who finds Dark Pit a justified addition?

Not at all, Dark Pit was a completely justified addition. And it is more or less impossible to prove otherwise.

 

[NintenZ]

However, these clones are so samey to the point you don't feel much of a difference. Point is, they spent time on something that makes no sense. Imagine if in say, Uprising 2, there are 2 weapons that are so similar the only difference is the name. Don't bring up the RNG stats as that's what equipment does in Smash. Just seeing something rehashed isn't good in the eyes of many

Look at it this way, it's like free desert.

 

[Frostwraith]

Here's the thing. Not only did the game cost a tenner more than you said, but if they feel the same, what's the point? Padding. Gamers really don't like padding. I know you don't care as you're kind off a deafeatist(I think that's the word I'm looking for) but the economyis getting worse. It's not that Dark Pit killed off sales, but because there's absolutely nothing noticeable about him. It's like paying for a box of chocolates full price, but one's missing I guess, you expect better than that

Next time, I'm going to the bakery and look for the cake that has one less cherry. The number of cherries in a cake is very important and can be a deal breaker, indeed.

I'm not a defeatist. I just can tell apart content that is clearly meant as an extra from what is actually the main, more attention grabbing content.

Note how Dark Pit didn't even get a newcomer trailer (besides a tease after the end of Palutena's trailer) and Lucina was just shoehorned into Robin's trailer. They weren't characters that were meant to be heavily advertised or considered but were easy to put into the game because they are so similar to two other characters already in the game.

You might as well complain about certain games' Easter Eggs that may have taken way more work than the clones that almost no one finds them and they add absolutely nothing to the game other than a silly thing.

 

[Wintropy]

Funny story.

I don't give a damn about Mario.

I think he's a great character, but I have no interest in him in Smash.

Every game Doc is in, I play Doc.

If Doc was an alt for Mario, I'd play Mario just for the Doc alt.

If he wasn't in the game, I wouldn't play Mario.

I don't play Doc because I want my Mario fix, I play Doc because I want Doc.

However, these clones are so samey to the point you don't feel much of a difference. Point is, they spent time on something that makes no sense. Imagine if in say, Uprising 2, there are 2 weapons that are so similar the only difference is the name. Don't bring up the RNG stats as that's what equipment does in Smash. Just seeing something rehashed isn't good in the eyes of many

...And?

I don't want to be rude, but have you ever played any of these characters?

 

[A Distant Demon]

Am I one of the only people who finds Dark Pit a justified addition?

No

I've been an avid defender of the clones since the ESRB leak originated.