Official DLC Character Discussion Thread - Read the new sticky/announcement

[Burruni]

So what are you trying to say is that Shantae is actually Donald Trump?

No.
Her hair is 100% real.

 

[BKupa666]

In your opinion, has this cycle diminished the value of Smash Speculation?

SSB4's has, absolutely. This is going to sound so "crotchety old guy," but before now, it was all about getting the best candidates, looking at their resumes, moveset options, appearances, everything about them that could make them a good all-star to include. Now, people actively look at reasons to not include the remaining requested and qualified characters (Ridley, K. Rool, Toad, etc.), call them boring and act as though, because there aren't as many important characters to add, there shouldn't be any of them added.

Instead, it's all just checking which characters are in a new game within an arbitrary window of time, then going full tilt defending them and calling them shoo-ins. Not only is that so robotic to me, but it even gets to the point with some characters where people start passively supporting the names that get shouted out most often, creating the illusion of them being super popular and causing people to justify their inclusions on those grounds.

It's a vicious circle that, once K. Rool's fate is revealed, I'll be retiring from without much looking back.

So what are you trying to say is that Shantae is actually Donald Trump?

Nah, more like a Chris Christie or a Scott Walker...a hype magnet for like two weeks before just fading into the background. Banjo and pre-"leak" Shovel Knight qualify as well.

 

[The Light Music Club]

So what are you trying to say is that Shantae is actually Donald Trump?

I made a whole comparison. King K is Trump. Shantae is Ben Carson since before the ballot no one knew who either was

 

[FalKoopa]

So what are you trying to say is that Shantae is actually Donald Trump?

If I compared the indies to '*********' I guess I'll have to put up a flame-shield. Shovel Knight is probably closer to Donald Trump, I think.

Politics isn't the best comparison, really, even if it is a ballot.

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

So, basically, for the wrong reasons?

Well haven't you heard Robotnik? HaPINESS is so much more enjoyable when it's based on the misery of millions.

 

[SmashChu]

There were a few people who replied to my post who I haven't replied too. Couldn't get everyone. Sorry.

I would argue that on the topic of 3rd parties...Smash isn't JUST about Nintendo anymore. It's not about Sony or Microsoft, but it's not just Nintendo. Mega Man and Ryu are Capcom. Sonic is SEGA. Pac-Man is Namco. The reason THEY got in is likely because they're GAMING ICONS.

Of course, we could go on making up reasons like we know exactly why certain characters got added. But the fact of the matter is, the one thing that is currently consistent with all the 3rd Parties we currently have, is that they're all gaming legends. They've created most of their legacy (except for Mega Man) on multiple consoles, not just Nintendo consoles. If they hadn't created their legacy elsewhere, they wouldn't be where they are in the industry. Nintendo didn't make Sonic who he is. SEGA did. Pac-Man didn't make his name on the NES. SF2 may be an important game in the history of Street Fighter, but if Street Fighter bombed afterward on other consoles, we probably wouldn't have had Ryu in the first place.[/quote]
So let's look at what Smash Brothers is about.

Is it about gaming icons? Well, we do have gaming icons. There is Mario, DK, Link, Pikachu, Sonic, Megaman, Pac-Man, and Ryu even Dunk Hunt (Dog). Most people will agree these characters are gaming icons. But what about Shulk, or Marth. They certainly aren't icons. What about the new DLC characters, like Lucas or Roy. They definitely aren't icons. In fact, there are a ton of characters who aren't iconic, like Ness, Captain Falcon, Palutena, Dark Pit, Ike, Jigglypuff, Olimar, and so on. Well, if it's not about gaming icons, maybe its just video games in general. Well, maybe, but there are a lot of characters video game characters missing, Plus, most of these guys are Nintendo characters. Wait, Nintendo characters? Nintendo. Yeah, most of these characters are Nintendo characters. A lot of the stages, music and trophies come from Nintendo series not in Smash.

But what about the outliers: Sonic, Megaman, Pac-Man and Ryu. Well, they have content from their series, but it seems to be restricted to their individual series (save Namco stuff and Mii Fighter costumes). Actually, a lot of these characters have something in common with Nintendo. Sonic was Mario's rival. Megaman started on the NES (and released 6 games). Ryu's console debut was on the SNES (and he is primarily based off SF2 from what Sakurai has said).

So technically, yes, its not JUST about Nintendo, but the focus is predominately Nintendo characters and games with minor exceptions. Yes, the third party characters are icons, but this is because adding 3rd party characters is the exception, not the norm. They are something special, but fans seem to assume that they are the same as the rest and, as such, anyone can get. Discrimination goes out the window in favor of everyone's personal MUGAN.

Are we assuming that Nintendo fans who play Smash only play Nintendo games and aren't interested in other characters? Why is it suddenly bad to want a character who maybe hasn't shown up as much on Nintendo consoles? Are they popular? Do they offer something new? If the answer is yes, what's the problem? Let's talk about it.

No, we are not assuming Smash fans only play Nintendo, but that doesn't mean the game should feature non-Nintendo content. We can safely assume fans of Marvel vs Capcom read more than Marvel comic books and play more than Capcom games, but does that mean we need to add other video game characters like Sonic and Nathan Drake and have pother comic book characters like Batman or the Archie comic crew. Likewise, fans of Heroes of the Storm play more than Blizzard games, but does that mean we need to add Spyro to the game.

Again, what makes Smash Bros interesting is the Nintendo lore.

 

[Children0fTheStars]

Oh boy. I bet this'll paint a target on my back.

It's the magic of a bandwagon. One statement, action, or event and suddenly everyone is and always has been a fan of a character. Rayman and Geno quickly spring to mind.

The tweet you're talking about hovers somewhere around 500 Favorites. Whereas some random artist on Miiverse can make a post about her and get over a thousand responses. The difference with Banjo-Kazooie is that they're faced with licensing complications.

(Or maybe a licensing nightmare would be closer to the truth. Unless there's something up with the "WindowsLogo" in Super Mario Maker's data.)

It's not a bandwagon. You're referring to a fanbase that rallied behind a cult classic over the past fourteen years and was interested in her inclusion before Matt Bozon said anything.

I say this from my own experience: It takes barely any research at all into the name "Shantae", a minute spent on Google, to figure out her history and why exactly people want her. This isn't like Geno, an actual bandwagon that had very little reasoning behind it back in Brawl. There have been numerous, credible arguments given in her defense.

 

[A Distant Demon]

Oh boy. I bet this'll paint a target on my back.



The tweet you're talking about hovers somewhere around 500 Favorites. Whereas some random artist on Miiverse can make a post about her and get over a thousand responses. The difference with Banjo-Kazooie is that they're faced with licensing complications.

(Or maybe a licensing nightmare would be closer to the truth. Unless there's something up with the "WindowsLogo" in Super Mario Maker's data.)

It's not a bandwagon. You're referring to a fanbase that rallied behind a cult classic over the past fourteen years and was interested in her inclusion before Matt Bozon said anything.

I say this from my own experience: It takes barely any research at all into the name "Shantae", a minute spent on Google, to figure out her history and why exactly people want her. This isn't like Geno, an actual bandwagon that had very little reasoning behind it back in Brawl. There have been numerous, credible arguments given in her defense.

Except all of that support was non-existant before the ballot was announced. She has a sudden influx of fans which makes up about 99% of her current publicity. She is in every essence, a bandwagon.

 

[APC99]

Now, I've been a Shantae supporter for quite some time now, before the ballot IIRC. I believe she definitely has some potential. However, what's ruined it for me personally is the fact the Ballot has made developers become desperate enough to say "Vote for us!" when they themselves don't know if the Ballot is a poll or a suggestion box, if it's based on numbers or other factors.

Now, don't get me wrong, I don't think it's wrong to want your character you created in Smash Bros, especially if a lot of other people do too. Shovel Knight's certainly got a lot going for him, and is shaping him to be at least semi-iconic as, at least, a pivotal game for the Wii U. Yet, I constantly see Yacht Club re-tweeting posts about Shovel Knight in Smash, or "Vote for our character Shovel Knight!" without much consideration to any of the actual traits he would need to be a viable option. And dev after dev has come out saying "Yes, our character can get into Smash if YOU vote for them!". They're acting as if the poll is the sole thing needed to get in. WayForward and Matt Bozon are guilty of this too, with Shantae fan-art using #ShantaeforSmash everywhere. But it kind of cheapens it for me when it's the company begging alongside of the fanbase. Even Nicalis has thrown in a completely new Quote model, advertising him for Smash. Then there's characters like Super Meat Boy and Commander Video who out of nowhere start begging. Hell, Ubisoft did it with Rayman!

My point is, I think the whole point of a third-party is a legendary video game icon with a few ties to Nintendo, and it's an honor a developers would love. However, when devs out their characters and attempt to persuade fans to vote for them, I think it's stupid and a bit greedy. Let Nintendo come to you. You can't just ask for it, you have to earn it. It's all about who's approaching who, and I think it's a greater honor for Nintendo to approach you than to just go to them and beg for your character. Let them in on their own merits, don't bandwagon it.

That's just my two cents, it's not something that keeps me awake at night, but it bothers me.

 

[JaidynReiman]

Now, I've been a Shantae supporter for quite some time now, before the ballot IIRC. I believe she definitely has some potential. However, what's ruined it for me personally is the fact the Ballot has made developers become desperate enough to say "Vote for us!" when they themselves don't know if the Ballot is a poll or a suggestion box, if it's based on numbers or other factors.

Now, don't get me wrong, I don't think it's wrong to want your character you created in Smash Bros, especially if a lot of other people do too. Shovel Knight's certainly got a lot going for him, and is shaping him to be at least semi-iconic as, at least, a pivotal game for the Wii U. Yet, I constantly see Yacht Club re-tweeting posts about Shovel Knight in Smash, or "Vote for our character Shovel Knight!" without much consideration to any of the actual traits he would need to be a viable option. And dev after dev has come out saying "Yes, our character can get into Smash if YOU vote for them!". They're acting as if the poll is the sole thing needed to get in. WayForward and Matt Bozon are guilty of this too, with Shantae fan-art using #ShantaeforSmash everywhere. But it kind of cheapens it for me when it's the company begging alongside of the fanbase. Even Nicalis has thrown in a completely new Quote model, advertising him for Smash. Then there's characters like Super Meat Boy and Commander Video who out of nowhere start begging. Hell, Ubisoft did it with Rayman!

My point is, I think the whole point of a third-party is a legendary video game icon with a few ties to Nintendo, and it's an honor a developers would love. However, when devs out their characters and attempt to persuade fans to vote for them, I think it's stupid and a bit greedy. Let Nintendo come to you. You can't just ask for it, you have to earn it. It's all about who's approaching who, and I think it's a greater honor for Nintendo to approach you than to just go to them and beg for your character. Let them in on their own merits, don't bandwagon it.

That's just my two cents, it's not something that keeps me awake at night, but it bothers me.

I agree. I don't like the idea of a character getting in because of inflating votes in this sort of manner. Sure, Sakurai added Snake after Kojima asked, but he didn't like beg his fans to beg Sakurai to add Snake.

 

[BKupa666]

To again make the election comparison, having these companies and celebrities out stumping for characters is the equivalent of SuperPACs pouring billions of dollars into presidential campaigns. It's fair game and doesn't guarantee that candidate/character will emerge victorious, but it feels super slimy and can go a long way toward getting momentum and/or loud support for them.

 

[Oasis Dealer]

I mean, a lot of people are campaigning for each character. It helps build support. It's just that with 3rd parties, some take it just a bit to far.

Companies like Ubisoft with Rayman and Microsoft with Banjo and Kazooie, and Konami with Snake are probably the most tame: Saying they would like to see their character get into smash, with the Rayman twitter occasionally liking Rayman for Smash posts. You can then get some just requesting their character for no reason. I can at least kinda get characters like Shantae, Shovel Knight, and Quote simply because the people or company has supported Nintendo. But then you get stuff like Super Meat Boy, and that one character from some random online RPG. Get's a bit ridiculous at times.

If there's one thing that annoys me though, are people putting in multiple votes for the same character. Just bloats out a characters votes and doesn't give an accurate set of how much a character is requested. And I mean this for one character only, not multiple ones for other characters. Granted, we don't know how Nintendo sorts through these votes. so just have to wait and see.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

By no means am I agreeing that there should be like, 6-7 3rd parties. If you added Snake and Rayman (or even just Snake) you've got yourself a borderline perfect 3rd party roster imo. Snake is mainly because he's already been there.

Yeah, I'd agree that several 3rd parties don't deserve it. But that doesn't mean they would be a "terrible" choice by default.

I'd also like to see more evidence of people saying that established characters in speculation would be "boring". I've seen like 5 people say K.Rool would be boring. Most people don't actually think that, and even then the only valid reason to think that is because well...maybe people get sick of hearing about how he HAS to happen. No character HAS to happen.

Whatever though. Whatever happens happens. Kinda looking forward to the ballot being over so that we can wrap this all up if I'm being honest.

 

[KimKarsmashian]

By no means am I agreeing that there should be like, 6-7 3rd parties. If you added Snake and Rayman (or even just Snake) you've got yourself a borderline perfect 3rd party roster imo. Snake is mainly because he's already been there.

I feel like this is almost Snake's rallying cry. "Snake: because he's already been there."

I'd also like to see more evidence of people saying that established characters in speculation would be "boring". I've seen like 5 people say K.Rool would be boring. Most people don't actually think that, and even then the only valid reason to think that is because well...maybe people get sick of hearing about how he HAS to happen. No character HAS to happen.

If you hear about it long enough, the idea can stop being interesting. And we also have a smaller pool of established characters to pick from compared to Brawl or even Smash4. What's left? K. Rool, Isaac, Bandanna Dee, maybe Ridley. Krystal? Almost by necessity, you end up seeing more of them and you kind of get sick. I'm admittedly kind of sick of the 'popular' newcomers just by virtue of hearing about them so much, but if I actually got to play with them, I doubt I'd be mad. Like, I wasn't expecting Ryu, but I ended up liking him anyway.

Whatever though. Whatever happens happens. Kinda looking forward to the ballot being over so that we can wrap this all up if I'm being honest.

Same. The ballot speculation feels a lot more vicious than other speculation periods. Maybe because we can actually influence it this time, whereas before we were basically trying to discover something that was already decided.

 

[A Distant Demon]

Ballot speculation has been far more vicious than pre-release. Not to say pre-realese was good (I think we all know this community naturally isn't very good) but for the most part it was less of a competition.

There is also a really weird ad populum kind of thing going on. Popular characters become good from being popular and insulting any facet of them is a crime and non-popular characters are automatically bad characters because they aren't popular. Way back when you could support that side character without any real issue, possibly because they weren't competition for votes, possibly because there was a chance they would be that "oddball" character. But now you bring it up and you get blasted.

Hell from what i've seen the entire Rhythm heaven franchise gets blasted for picking any option. Back then it was a good old fashioned game. more of a sport. Now it is a brutal competition with only the fittest surviving. . .

EDIT now this may be looking through nostalgia goggles as I was quite the "reps" fan way back when but it also seems like repping is more important than ever. Your character's franchise can be a huge problem and i've seen plenty of people insulted for wanting more pokemon/mario/fire emblem/KI characters simply because "we have too many." I guess we couldn't have too many back when we didn't know how many characters we had but it has gotten really REALLY bad. :/

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

I'm just going to repost something I posted on reddit, since it's basically my entire stance on the way the speculation scene's gone recently (this is a huge quote, since it combines two posts in one). It's also pretty venty, because it was basically me getting this stuff off of my chest;

(Keep in mind that this is not directed at anybody here! This is just me venting about the speculation scene in general.)

Honestly, I think the speculation scene for Smash 4 is starting to become less of a fun thing to do and more of a place where you are judged for what characters you want in the game personally over who you are and where certain characters are treated like gods while others get dragged through the mud and treated like trash.

Take anybody who says they want Ridley in Smash as an example; before Brawl, it wasn't seen as that much of a problem...but since Brawl, people seem to think Ridley is this impossible dream and anybody who still wants him in is either in denial or just dumb because he's "too big". Meanwhile, characters like Shovel Knight get bandwagon support just for having a ****ing amiibo and not for their own merits.

It's ridiculous that a single goddamn meme has doomed an entire group of people to be shunned for wanting a character they like in the game while everyone else gets off relatively fine. Not liking the idea is fine, but shunning and mocking people based on what they want in a game is NOT acceptable, at least to me.

You can have your Shovel Knights and Reckless Wiimote Safety Guys, that's fine. But don't throw a hissy fit when someone says they want Ridley in the game. He's a boss, yes, but that has never stopped people supporting Waluigi when he's an Assist Trophy, so why should it stop people wanting Ridley in? A number of Metroid fans would like their franchise to be represented by more than one character doing two roles. And the reasoning against him is kind of bull ("too big", except Olimar is the size of a quarter, all the Dreamland characters are only a few inches tall and Bowser has never been consistently sized, all of them are still in Smash as fighters); not to mention Ridley himself has wildly fluctuated in size over the years, and his canonical height is a stunning 12 feet...which is only around twice Samus' height of 6'3''. Totally too big, amirite?

And that's not even getting into all the people saying that Goku has a chance to be a playable character just because Namco's helping with Smash 4. >_>

I could understand if you're not sure about if he could work, but just blaming size like a lot of people do doesn't hold water; scaling is not about the literal size of the object, it's the object's proportions remaining the same. Shrink an elephant down to the size of a human and, on average, the elephant will still be bigger, mass-wise, if it's proportions are the same as it was before. Same with Ridley; shrink him down to the size of Bowser in Smash 4 without touching any of his proportions and he'd still look correct; just smaller than most modern depictions show him, and closer to the scale he tended to have in earlier 2D games, like Super Metroid. And there's plenty of support for retro characters. I'm not even saying that other choices are bad; just pointing out that there's a lot of unfair toxicity in this community, and using Ridley as the example since that's the way I'm most familiar with the toxic side of the community. I wouldn't be against another retro character; but I hold them to the same standards I hold everyone else to. Characters in Smash need to be either important to Nintendo or important to gaming, with few exceptions. As an example, Marth and Roy in Melee were representative of the Fire Emblem series, which is Nintendo's oldest RTS game. This also applies to Pit; in Brawl, Pit was the only playable character from the Kid Icarus franchise because that series hadn't seen any games since the NES. Once Sakurai revived it, he added Palutena, another primary character of the franchise, and also added Dark Pit as another bonus using Pit as a base, like Lucina.

However, Metroid was also released around the same time as Kid Icarus, as well; but is far more consistently active, only missing out on a game for the N64 and possibly the Wii U. And it has Samus, who's been around from the beginning, and Zero Suit Samus, who debuted in Brawl, after Zero Mission. And then, in Smash 4...it got no new characters. At all. Oh sure, you had Ridley has a boss character for the Pyrosphere for the Wii U version, but on the 3DS, it literally got NO new content at all. For a franchise that's been around as long as Kid Icarus, Metroid got the short end of the stick with very little new content in either game...and virtually NONE in the 3DS version. This is really odd, and this may be where the idea of "Sakurai Bias" originates; the fact that Sakurai pays heed to some franchises quite heavily for personal reasons (Fire Emblem and Kid Icarus), but ends up neglecting other franchises that could also use the same love (Donkey Kong and Metroid) as a result.
Not to say I think he is biased, and I don't, but it's certainly quite an odd pattern for a developer to have.

Anyways, back to Ridley. The main reason I want Ridley in before any other Metroid characters is this; he's the one that has the deepest, most entrenched duality with her. I can't say I want characters like Sylux, Rundas or Dark Samus in as fighters first because they aren't, to use a fitting phrase, Samus' white whale. Samus does not have as intense emotions to any of them as she does to Ridley. To Samus, Ridley is the main antagonist because he's the one who destroyed her entire colony and killed her mother. But she can never seem to kill Ridley, and so she can't rest with the knowledge of her parents and everyone on the colony being avenged. Ridley himself also shows vastly more threatening character in the manga; a cruel, sadistic murderer who has very little, if no, redeeming qualities.

Ridley is perfectly willing to murder anybody who gets in the way of his goal, and does so with zero mercy. His mere presence can trigger Samus' post-traumatic stress disorder (which as a concept was handled much better in the manga than in Other M). Basically, Ridley is to Samus what Bowser is to Mario; just make the cause murder of the protagonist's parents rather than kidnapping royalty...or to continue the literary comparisons, Ridley is the Moby **** to Samus' Captain Ahab. Ridley is important to Samus as a character, and thus is very important to the franchise; so much so that he's only missed three games, maybe four if he isn't in Federation Force. In essence, the two are exact opposites of each other. This sort of characterization and the deep rivalry these two individuals have is SO interesting, but it's not being used well, if at all. Ridley works so well as a villain because he's more than meets the eye. It's not like, say, Bowser; where you know he's the bad guy because he's big and he kidnaps the princess.

Ridley deceives that perception; he looks like the big and dull type, but he instead is vicious and cunning as well as being large. Ridley's character revolves not around his size, but his brutality. He's violent, cruel, and maybe even a little insane; as long as he remains in-character, Ridley is Ridley, no matter the size, basically. I CAN understand Sakurai's viewpoint, though; he's afraid to change Ridley's size because he doesn't want to stray from the character's....well, character, at least in his mind. But that's half the issue; size ISN'T Ridley's character, and nothing in the actual Metroid games makes this known well. If Federation Force changes this, and we get to see Ridley's entire personality actively in a game, then Sakurai may start to change his tune on Ridley, as that would give him a defined character for Sakurai to work with; and thus, make it easier for him to swallow shrinking him down. And honestly, THAT is why I think Sakurai is so hesitant about Ridley; he has no real...starting point for Ridley's personality, no way to build a moveset that captures Ridley's character perfectly because, in the games, Ridley....doesn't speak. He has no defined personality, nothing to use as a basis for creativity; no SPARK that can let Sakurai get Ridley's character and work from that. Without it, Sakurai can't really represent Ridley as a character. If he put Ridley in just because, it wouldn't feel like the character, only look like it. And Sakurai is all about representing the character with his newcomers.

Sure, we have characters like Duck Hunt Duo and Pac-Man, but they don't have much character; so instead, they become tributes to their genres. But for everyone else, it's all about who they are as characters. And since Ridley is sort of neglected from a character perspective...that kind of hurts him. Without that understanding, Sakurai has no base to use, no defining traits to understand. If we want to change Sakurai's opinions on things, even things as seemingly hopeless as getting Ridley in Smash, we need to make him understand why we see the character we want differently to him. Just saying that he's wrong does little; appealing to him on a creative level is important. Ridley's supporters have been fighting tooth and nail to try and get him in this game since even before Melee's release, and despite countless disappointments, despite all the people saying it will never happen and even in spite of the small group of people who actively harass us, we continue fighting on for our goal. At this point, pretty much NOTHING will ever stop us from trying to get Ridley in the game until it happens. We sort of end up embodying Ridley's most notable characteristic; no matter how many times we get struck down, we're always going to come back. We're tenacious to the extreme, and even the fact of Sakurai himself saying he thinks it wouldn't work does nothing to stop us from wanting him in anyways.

It's gotten to the point where we're actively creating books in both English and Japanese, and sending them to both Nintendo of America and Nintendo of Japan, just to show how much we want this character in the game, either in this game or in future ones. We don't have the massive backing of people, we don't have the support of the developers. We're completely on our own, fighting for what we believe in; fighting against what seems to be impossible odds. And if there's anything Ridley fans are good at, it's not backing down, even when we've got our backs to the wall with the idea of our character being stuck as an NPC looming over. We fight to the end and won't ever quit until we can finally get Ridley in the game as a playable character. We don't care if it's this game, the next or whenever; as long as he's actually there and selectable on the CSS. That's why I think Ridley is a good suggestion for a fighter; not only is he important to Samus as a character, and one of only three recurring characters in the franchise, but he adds not only another non-Samus Metroid character to the roster, but also adds another face to the group of villainous characters in the game, of which is sorely lacking, as well as being one of the very few all-stars left who haven't been playable in ANY Smash games.

Not to mention that Ridley is one of the most popular picks from competitive players for a newcomer they'd want in the next game; so obviously, they don't see the same issues Sakurai does in him. The Smash 4 roster has enough new franchises, now let's see some older ones get some new stuff. DLC gives the team a chance to expand the roster and release characters they otherwise would have needed to scrap entirely or release entirely new content not in the base game at all.

 

[N3ON]

If I was an indie developer who regularly, often exclusively supported Nintendo and had a character I (and hopefully others) thought would fit well in the world of Smash I would ask people to vote for them too. I think a lot of you would as well, you're all clearly big Smash fans.

Are they buying votes? No. Are they MAKING people vote for their character? No. If they want to make one or two tweets or throw out a hashtag everyone now and again encouraging their fans to vote for a certain character that's their prerogative. People do a lot worse in other election-type situations.

Kojima wanted his character in, he didn't bother asking what the fans wanted. Hint, they wouldn't have wanted Snake prior to his reveal. Capcom in all likelihood pressured Nintendo into including Ryu. Another character fans initially didn't want. A character that Sakurai probably didn't even initially want if his past statements mean anything. I can't imagine Nintendo was the one to approach Ubisoft about Rayman's inclusion, especially since he wasn't made a character (and he wasn't a character many cared about prior to his trophy and especially the leak). The only difference between the third-party meddling from the likes of Kojima and Capcom and Ubisoft is they don't need to include the fans. It's still meddling from an outside source, the indies just need the fans to rally behind them. And isn't that the better way anyway? To have a character get in because the FANS wanted it to happen?

You may all turn up your noses at their self-promotion, but let's not pretend most of you wouldn't do the same in their position. I would. It's still the fans that are make or break in getting a character included (well technically it's Sakurai, but it's still the fans over the devs when it comes to this ballot). None of these indie characters are going to get in without a ton of support from people that actually want to see them included.

Let's cut them a break here. You're really only faulting the indies for not having the resources or reputation to meddle behind the scenes in the same clandestine way Konami and Capcom and Ubisoft can. They all want their characters in Smash.

 

[A Distant Demon]

If I was an indie developer who regularly, often exclusively supported Nintendo and had a character I (and hopefully others) thought would fit well in the world of Smash I would ask people to vote for them too. I think a lot of you would as well, you're all clearly big Smash fans.

Are they buying votes? No. Are they MAKING people vote for their character? No. If they want to make one or two tweets or throw out a hashtag everyone now and again encouraging their fans to vote for a certain character that's their prerogative. People do a lot worse in other election-type situations.

Kojima wanted his character in, he didn't bother asking what the fans wanted. Hint, they wouldn't have wanted Snake prior to his reveal. Capcom in all likelihood pressured Nintendo into including Ryu. Another characters fans initially didn't want. A character that Sakurai probably didn't even initially want if his past statements mean anything. I can't imagine Nintendo was the one to approach Ubisoft about Rayman's inclusion, especially since he wasn't made a character (and he wasn't a character many cared about prior to his trophy and especially the leak). The only difference between the third-party meddling from the likes of Kojima and Capcom and Ubisoft is they don't need to include the fans. It's still meddling from an outside source, the indies just need the fans to rally behind them. And isn't that the better way anyway? To have a character get in because the FANS wanted it to happen?

You may all turn up your noses at their self-promotion, but let's not pretend most of you wouldn't do the same in their position. I would. It's still the fans that are make or break in getting a character included (well technically it's Sakurai, but it's still the fans over the devs when it comes to this ballot). None of these indie characters are going to get in without a ton of support from people that actually want to see them included.

Let's cut them a break here. You're really only faulting the indies for not having the resources or reputation to meddle behind the scenes in the same clandestine way Konami and Capcom and Ubisoft can. They all want their characters in Smash.

Indies promoting their own character is just good business sense. I wouldn't have bought a Shantae game and likely to buy Shovel Knight if they didn't. I can understand the other anti-indie arguments but that one has always been silly to me when it is just plain logical :/

I'm just going to repost something I posted on reddit, since it's basically my entire stance on the way the speculation scene's gone recently (this is a huge quote, since it combines two posts in one). It's also pretty venty, because it was basically me getting this stuff off of my chest;

First I am not reading that mess of an essay when im already a ridley supporter.

Second I was just about to cite Ridley detraction as proof of how the community has shifted so thanks for beating me to the punch. . .
TLDR version o what I was going to say. Ridley and K rool were a part of the "Big 3" They were generally well-liked wherever you went. Ridley had his enemies but they were small in number. Now. It's ok to hate K rool and especially Ridley. Not to say people weren't allowed to have opinions but now it's cool to bash Ridley and K rool fans for various reasons. The constant insults got so bad the Ridley fanbase seems ti have either dissolved or gone into hiding. That isn't something that should happen.

 

[Aetheri]

One thing I see a lot in any sort of voting/ballot/election is the general concept of anti-campaigning...What I mean is basically 'Don't vote for the other guy because reasons! Vote for me!'...

somewhat unrelated but, I can't count how many times I've seen commercials for Elections here in Canada about Justin Trudeau being 'too young' and 'not ready'...as someone that doesn't particularly care about politics that much, it is rather annoying that they are not trying to justify themselves for the that particular role rather than putting down the competition constantly...

This is something a lot of detractors are doing nowadays 'K Rool's Mii costume means he's deconfirmed,' 'Ridley is too big,' 'Snake isn't Nintendo enough,' 'Too many reps,' 'Too New', 'Not iconic enough,' 'obvious clone,' 'Pre-defined role,' 'uses a sword,' 'has blue hair and uses a sword,' etc...etc...

Things are pretty cut throat, and seeing as people look at the ballot and think 'Anyone can get in now' even though the team still has their own set of standards and requirements for characters when it comes to picking a character (especially one that will be paid DLC), several people don't want their character to miss out due to another character 'taking a slot', thus the hostilities...

 

[Morbi]

One thing I see a lot in any sort of voting/ballot/election is the general concept of anti-campaigning...What I mean is basically 'Don't vote for the other guy because reasons! Vote for me!'...

somewhat unrelated but, I can't count how many times I've seen commercials for Elections here in Canada about Justin Trudeau being 'too young' and 'not ready'...as someone that doesn't particularly care about politics that much, it is rather annoying that they are not trying to justify themselves for the that particular role rather than putting down the competition constantly...

This is something a lot of detractors are doing nowadays 'K Rool's Mii costume means he's deconfirmed,' 'Ridley is too big,' 'Snake isn't Nintendo enough,' 'Too many reps,' 'Too New', 'Not iconic enough,' 'obvious clone,' 'Pre-defined role,' 'uses a sword,' 'has blue hair and uses a sword,' etc...etc...

Things are pretty cut throat, and seeing as people look at the ballot and think 'Anyone can get in now' even though the team still has their own set of standards and requirements for characters when it comes to picking a character (especially one that will be paid DLC), several people don't want their character to miss out due to another character 'taking a slot', thus the hostilities...

I agree with your sentiment wholeheartedly, if you must put down another to elevate yourself, you probably do not have a lot of logical reasons to support your demands/wants. It almost implies that "a" does not work, so "b" is THE alternative. That being said though, there are certainly feasible reasons that something may or may not work and I have no problem with someone stating those. The line, so to speak, is not so clear. I suppose the inherent issue is that people attempt to pass off their opinions as fact. It just makes everything seem like a debate rather than a discussion.

 

[Champ Gold]

If I was an indie developer who regularly, often exclusively supported Nintendo and had a character I (and hopefully others) thought would fit well in the world of Smash I would ask people to vote for them too. I think a lot of you would as well, you're all clearly big Smash fans.

Are they buying votes? No. Are they MAKING people vote for their character? No. If they want to make one or two tweets or throw out a hashtag everyone now and again encouraging their fans to vote for a certain character that's their prerogative. People do a lot worse in other election-type situations.

Kojima wanted his character in, he didn't bother asking what the fans wanted. Hint, they wouldn't have wanted Snake prior to his reveal. Capcom in all likelihood pressured Nintendo into including Ryu. Another character fans initially didn't want. A character that Sakurai probably didn't even initially want if his past statements mean anything. I can't imagine Nintendo was the one to approach Ubisoft about Rayman's inclusion, especially since he wasn't made a character (and he wasn't a character many cared about prior to his trophy and especially the leak). The only difference between the third-party meddling from the likes of Kojima and Capcom and Ubisoft is they don't need to include the fans. It's still meddling from an outside source, the indies just need the fans to rally behind them. And isn't that the better way anyway? To have a character get in because the FANS wanted it to happen?

You may all turn up your noses at their self-promotion, but let's not pretend most of you wouldn't do the same in their position. I would. It's still the fans that are make or break in getting a character included (well technically it's Sakurai, but it's still the fans over the devs when it comes to this ballot). None of these indie characters are going to get in without a ton of support from people that actually want to see them included.

Let's cut them a break here. You're really only faulting the indies for not having the resources or reputation to meddle behind the scenes in the same clandestine way Konami and Capcom and Ubisoft can. They all want their characters in Smash.

Self Promotion isn't bad and is a good way to get your name out there but it's the bad PR that can easily come with it (see the Shantate incident)

And you're implying Sakurai was forced to put Ryu in by Capcom's pressure? LOL, no

Sakurai is a straight up Street Fighter fanboy since the SF2 days (why Ryu has sound effects from there). If anything he was probably his choice and it was easier to work with Capcom. Capcom may have suggested it at one point but it wasn't like Sakurai straight up never liked the idea, he just wanted to focus on characters who never originated in fighters

But you were probably midlead into believing that he never wanted fighting game characters in Smash Bros

 

[Morbi]

Self Promotion isn't bad and is a good way to get your name out there but it's the bad PR that can easily come with it (see the Shantate incident)

And you're implying Sakurai was forced to put Ryu in by Capcom's pressure? LOL, no

Sakurai is a straight up Street Fighter fanboy since the SF2 days (why Ryu has sound effects from there). If anything he was probably his choice and it was easier to work with Capcom. Capcom may have suggested it at one point but it wasn't like Sakurai straight up never liked the idea, he just wanted to focus on characters who never originated in fighters

But you were probably midlead into believing that he never wanted fighting game characters in Smash Bros

To be fair, Sakurai probably made statements contrary to including fighting game characters just because he did not want to saturate the game with them and/or he wanted to represent characters not already in fighting games. Sort of like the Namco "no special treatment" fiasco. It does not imply that they get nothing, but at the same time, he made those statements so that people would adequately adjust their expectations.

 

[N3ON]

And you're implying Sakurai was forced to put Ryu in by Capcom's pressure? LOL, no

No, I'm implying Capcom wanted Ryu included and Nintendo pressured Sakurai to do it. I don't see it originating from Sakurai nor Nintendo because the 3rd party characters they've gone to lengths to acquire (and not the other way around) were the ones people actually asked for.

I do imagine the door was already open from the negotiations regarding Mega Man, I just doubt Sakurai and Nintendo were the catalyst to the ones regarding Ryu.

Sakurai is a straight up Street Fighter fanboy since the SF2 days (why Ryu has sound effects from there).

If this had been common knowledge people would've been expected Ryu for much longer than... since he got leaked. What's your source? The likely reason Ryu has his whole SFII deal is because that's both the most iconic and the most familiar Ryu to Nintendo fans... because unlike every other SF game since the SNES (excluding that one 3DS port) SF hasn't even been on Nintendo systems...

If anything he was probably his choice and it was easier to work with Capcom. Capcom may have suggested it at one point but it wasn't like Sakurai straight up never liked the idea, he just wanted to focus on characters who never originated in fighters

But you were probably midlead into believing that he never wanted fighting game characters in Smash Bros

It's easy to be misled Sakurai had a negative opinion about fighting game characters in Smash when he expressed a negative opinion about fighting game characters in Smash. An opinion, by the way, which only dates back to mid-Smash 4 development. Since then he's come around on such statements... which leads me to believe Ryu's inclusion wasn't exactly at the behest of his personal wishes.

It seems you're making a fair amount of assumptions here... and while I am too, mine are at least predicated on precedent and proof.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

N3ON

Your source for Sakurai's love of SF2. Says it right here.

Personally, I have a lot of experience playing in the arcade scene, and personally came out as a champion of a 100-person battle in arcade Street Fighter II.

Granted it may have been eons ago relatively-speaking, since this article was pre-release, but still.

And I'd like to point out that while Smash!Ryu borrows a lot from SF2, he does take a lot from his movesets in other games from the series as well.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Champ Gold]

No, I'm implying Capcom wanted Ryu included and Nintendo pressured Sakurai to do it. I don't see it originating from Sakurai nor Nintendo because the 3rd party characters they've gone to lengths to acquire (and not the other way around) were the ones people actually asked for.

I do imagine the door was already open from the negotiations regarding Mega Man, I just doubt Sakurai and Nintendo were the catalyst to the ones regarding Ryu.


If this had been common knowledge people would've been expected Ryu for much longer than... since he got leaked. What's your source? The likely reason Ryu has his whole SFII deal is because that's both the most iconic and the most familiar Ryu to Nintendo fans... because unlike every other SF game since the SNES (excluding that one 3DS port) SF hasn't even been on Nintendo systems...


It's easy to be misled Sakurai had a negative opinion about fighting game characters in Smash when he expressed a negative opinion about fighting game characters in Smash. An opinion, by the way, which only dates back to mid-Smash 4 development. Since then he's come around on such statements... which leads me to believe Ryu's inclusion wasn't exactly at the behest of his personal wishes.

It seems you're making a fair amount of assumptions here... and while I am too, mine are at least predicated on precedent and proof.

Yeah but here's the thing. Look up the interviews he did not only about Smash but video games itself, Street Fighter was one of his major interest back in the 90s. And to be truthful, you're trying to make it seem like Capcom brute forced Ryu into the game when it was probably either a suggestion back during when getting Megaman or a request later in the game's development which wouldhave made sense.

Plus Ryu would have gotten major request if fans didn't take that assumption that Sakurai never wanted fighting game characters in Smash. Morbi said it best: he didn't want to saturate the game or wasn't oppose to the idea.

I've been parroting this for months, check Source Gaming for the articles and there's some interviews posted here.

You're making Capcom look like the villain who forced Ryu because SFV when that game is probably irrelevant to why Sskurai put him in or are you that type of guy who believed Snake was put in Brawl only for MGS4 advertising? If not then why make the exception to Ryu

 

[N3ON]

N3ON

You source for Sakurai's love of SF2. Says it right here.



Granted it may have been eons ago relatively-speaking, since this article was pre-release, but still.

Smooth Criminal

Oh, interesting. Thanks!

It doesn't change any of my above opinions though. Sakurai has expressed affinity for many games over the years. The only ones that end up getting special treatment seem to be the ones he actually works on.

 

[Morbi]

Oh, interesting. Thanks!

It doesn't change any of my above opinions though. Sakurai has expressed affinity for many games over the years. The only ones that end up getting special treatment seem to be the ones he actually works on.

It does not have to be an either/or fallacy. Ryu could have been selected without special treatment or pressure from Capcom. Those could have both been factors as well. I highly doubt it is a cut and dry scenario, so to speak.

 

[Autumn ♫]

I only skimmed what was happening because all the post were too long to really read into, but I believe Sakurai was okay with Ryu being playable and wasn't forced to have him in, I really don't think Sakurai would add in anyone who he was against seeing, plus there's no real big way to force Sakurai to make him playable, especially when Sakurai technically doesn't work with Nintendo.

But that's just my 2 cents, take it or leave it.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Also, this.

Where "these characters were being developed long before the fan ballot was opened" coincides as far as the chronology of the game's development, well, it's hard to say. I don't think Sakurai was pressured into doing anything, though.

Smooth Criminal

 

[N3ON]

Yeah but here's the thing. Look up the interviews he did not only about Smash but video games itself, Street Fighter was one of his major interest back in the 90s. And to be truthful, you're trying to make it seem like Capcom brute forced Ryu into the game when it was probably either a suggestion back during when getting Megaman or a request later in the game's development which wouldhave made sense.

I'm not saying they forced him into the game, all I'm saying is I believe it was their idea, not Nintendo's or Sakurai's, but Nintendo agreed to it and then got Sakurai to be on board with it too. And I'm just basing this on past statements and actions.

And I have to imagine the talks for Ryu happened at a much later point than Mega Man considering Sakurai's negative statement regarding fighting game characters in Smash happened after Mega Man had already been included.

Plus Ryu would have gotten major request if fans didn't take that assumption that Sakurai never wanted fighting game characters in Smash.

No... he wouldn't. If that were the case then he had from when Snake was revealed all the way up until that statement was made in 2013 to get a fanbase, but one of any substantial volume never surfaced for him. Even without Sakurai's statement people weren't in favour of Ryu, you can even go back to the threads around when he was leaked and see that for yourself.

Morbi said it best: he didn't want to saturate the game or wasn't oppose to the idea.

I've been parroting this for months, check Source Gaming for the articles and there's some interviews posted here.

If you link me to them I'll read them, but from the statement regarding fighting game characters I have, Sakurai expresses how their inclusion in Smash would be redundant considering they'd just do what they already do in their games, and how they wouldn't mesh well.

I'm not saying Sakurai can't come around on his opinions, but given the other factors at play, I'm just saying I very much doubt the idea of Ryu in Smash started with him.

You're making Capcom look like the villain who forced Ryu because SFV when that game is probably irrelevant to why Sskurai put him in or are you that type of guy who believed Snake was put in Brawl only for MGS4 advertising? If not then why make the exception to Ryu

Well you can infer what you like from my posts, but I said nothing about SFV nor MGS4 nor advertising games in any of my posts on the topic. I do think, like in the case of Snake, the idea was brought to Nintendo/Sakurai instead of the other way around, but for what reasons is another discussion entirely.

 

[N3ON]

Double post ermagerd. Lock me up, mods!

It does not have to be an either/or fallacy. Ryu could have been selected without special treatment or pressure from Capcom. Those could have both been factors as well. I highly doubt it is a cut and dry scenario, so to speak.

Yeah, as we don't and likely never will know the in-depth details of Ryu's inclusion the truth is it could've gone any number of ways. I'm just presenting the one I believe to be the closest to what happened. But you're right in that it almost definitely wasn't a cut and dry scenario any way you want to look at it... it rarely is in these types of things.

 

[Baskerville]

No, I'm implying Capcom wanted Ryu included and Nintendo pressured Sakurai to do it. I don't see it originating from Sakurai nor Nintendo because the 3rd party characters they've gone to lengths to acquire (and not the other way around) were the ones people actually asked for.

I do imagine the door was already open from the negotiations regarding Mega Man, I just doubt Sakurai and Nintendo were the catalyst to the ones regarding Ryu.


If this had been common knowledge people would've been expected Ryu for much longer than... since he got leaked. What's your source? The likely reason Ryu has his whole SFII deal is because that's both the most iconic and the most familiar Ryu to Nintendo fans... because unlike every other SF game since the SNES (excluding that one 3DS port) SF hasn't even been on Nintendo systems...


It's easy to be misled Sakurai had a negative opinion about fighting game characters in Smash when he expressed a negative opinion about fighting game characters in Smash. An opinion, by the way, which only dates back to mid-Smash 4 development. Since then he's come around on such statements... which leads me to believe Ryu's inclusion wasn't exactly at the behest of his personal wishes.

It seems you're making a fair amount of assumptions here... and while I am too, mine are at least predicated on precedent and proof.

Just to correct you there, Super Street Fighter 2 and Street Fighter Alpha 1 and 3 have had Gameboy and GBA versions of them respectively.

 

[Arcanir]

The fighting game quote was actually misconstrued. The original message was more along the lines of "I'm looking for uniqueness, if this character does something another fighter does, I'm not interested" and used a random example from fighting games. The quote we originally got however only focused on the fighting game aspect and thus made it out as a negative comment against fighting game characters. So it wasn't really a shot against never having a fighting game character, it was a shot against having too many overlapping playstyles.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Just to correct you there, Super Street Fighter 2 and Street Fighter Alpha 1 and 3 have had Gameboy and GBA versions of them respectively.

I was just about to go back and mention something about this, yeah. Granted they were pretty ****ty ports, but they count.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Champ Gold]

I was just about to go back and mention something about this, yeah. Granted they were pretty ****ty ports, but they count.

Smooth Criminal

Alpha 3 on GBA wasn't that bad really. It played pretty well despite being a systems like the GBA

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Alpha 3 on GBA wasn't that bad really. It played pretty well despite being a systems like the GBA

Eh, I guess I can give you that much. It was handled a lot better than some of the other ports in the past (Alpha 2 for SNES wasn't too bad either, I think?). The PSP version is prolly the ultimate version of Alpha 3, or so I've been told, anyway.

As far as ports go, though, console's been a little sketch for SF over the years. Very hit or miss. It wasn't until recently (re: just a little over the past decade) that Capcom finally started to get this **** right, especially when they realized eSports!

(no, I'm not talking about the PS4 version of Ultra Street Fighter 4)

Smooth Criminal

 

[Champ Gold]

Eh, I guess I can give you that much. It was handled a lot better than some of the other ports in the past (Alpha 2 for SNES wasn't too bad either, I think?). The PSP version is prolly the ultimate version of Alpha 3, or so I've been told, anyway.

As far as ports go, though, console's been a little sketch for SF over the years. Very hit or miss. It wasn't until recently (re: just a little over the past decade) that Capcom finally started to get this **** right, especially when they realized eSports!

(no, I'm not talking about the PS4 version of Ultra Street Fighter 4)

Smooth Criminal

Actually the SNES version of Alpha 2 is considered one of the worst ports. Long load times, muddy graphics, butchered music and some of the slowness that hurt it.

The only reason people let it slide because it was the first port of any of the Alpha games on a console before Alphas 1-3 were on Playstation and Saturn

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Ah, ok. Thanks for clearing that up. Wasn't quite sure; outside of the Street Fighter 2 iterations for Genesis and SNES I owned (C.E. for the former and Super for the latter), I've only really dabbled in the other SF/Capcom ports for the higher-end platforms like Saturn, Dreamcast, or PSX that my friends owned, plus the odd cab at my local arcades. Sounds like I'll be staying away from Alpha 2 on SNES, then.

(I did have the PSX version of Alpha 3, now that I remember. World Tour mode da bess...but **** V-ism in retrospect. After seeing high-level play of that game, looool)

But yeah, as far as this riveting conversation goes, it evinces a looooooong history of Ryu and Street Fighter pretty much being saturated across every platform. Nintendo's really no different, but they're kinda...short on the list, I guess.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Burruni]

Smash 4 Speculation has gotten incredibly narrowed because of the scope of DLC as we see it and the level of heat intrinsic to this being a "last stand" until whenever Nintendo wants to spark up the Smash line again, which will most likely be more than half a decade.

That is also why I tend to shift thing to talking about who is the possible span for DLC and some of the "forerunners" for Smash 5 based on the series and such we have today and a couple guesses based on traditions of series expansion.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

See, I'm fairly happy that I haven't been a person to say, "Don't vote for X, vote for Y!". That's dumb.

I mean I've taken to Twitter for Snake and made an account but that's because I'm a fan. I will still stand by the fact that Snake should come back, especially because of his popularity for the game. He scores high in polls regularly it seems.

As far as Ryu, as a 3rd party character, he's THE fighting game character to add. I would say there isn't much to say he doesn't deserve it. We already know that 3rd parties get in for special reasons, and that's why I don't think popularity will help on its own.

No matter how much people will request an indie or someone like Layton, they might not get in because Sakurai is looking for a certain quality. I don't think for a second he was forced to add Ryu or pressured to add Snake. I think he saw value in the characters, saw something unique, and the rest is history.

Not to mention, Ryu is a character that has been found by many to be extremely fun to play as. Interesting.

As a side note, I think if somebody wants to be a " good" Smash speculator, you have to have a range of experience playing different games. For example, I've never played Street Fighter and plan on getting the new game. I've also played at least one game in each series in Smash except for Wii Fit.

Not to mention playing games like Golden Sun so that I can learn more about characters with support who aren't in. Same thing with Bandanna Dee.

You have to know what you're talking about.