DK Frame Data *Throws Added*

[Big O]

I said the only guaranteed options are footstool and shield grab since Dtilt, jab, and Bair only work depending on how low the last hit was. Dtilt out of shield is 13 frames so if your unlucky Fox could perfect shield it then up smash you.

 

[Luigi player]

Are you sure a dsmash is fast enough to hit ROB after the 5th hit of his dsmash? I can hit him with a bair if I time it right, but a dsmash?

Thanks for testing all this Big O

 

[Donkey Bong]

shield grabbing fox's diar is how you beat him, that and fair are practically his only approaches.

 

[Jmex]

He can also boost pivot grab.

 

[crifer]

It´s just a pivot grab, not a pivot boost grab,
It only looks like a PWG.... It´s great^^

 

[itsthebigfoot]

ok, i always thought the frame data on fsmash looked kinda weird (mostly shield stun)

anyway, i've had some fsmashes where the stun lasts forever, and some where it doesn't last long at all, and i think i know why, there is ridiculous shield stun when you hit with the sweetspot (towards the end by the fingertips) but sucks if it is closer than that, would you mind testing to see if there is any real difference?

 

[Commander_Beef]

This is not what I expected for some of the frames on the listed attacks.

 

[Nokonoko]

I thought fsmash stun was based on how long you’d charged it … for some reason. Sweetspot makes a lot more sense.

 

[Big O]

Sorry I haven't posted for a while. I've been pretty busy and haven't played much lately. Regarding the Fsmash, it does have a sweetspot (pretty close to DK) and a sourspot (really close) but I can't remember if I tried all of them. I do know that if you charge the Fsmash it gets a lot more stun. Stale moves negation also affects shield stun. I'll look into this more so hopefully I can shed some light on this.

 

[Big O]

Well so far it seems that the Fsmash has two different shieldstun values. One when they are close and another when they aren't. A close Fsmash has 2 frames of shieldstun and at a distance it has 1 frame of shieldstun. I also renamed the section to shieldstun instead of shieldhitstun - shieldhitlag.

 

[GimR]

Alright, I everyone keeps saying that when you powershield it gets rid of your shield drop frames. I have the new frame by frame data code and I just don't see it. The only real difference I see when I slow it down is that your character turns purple after the power shield for 1 frame. It might also get rid of shield lag frames. But since it's brawl, that's not much anyways.

 

[Big O]

To my understanding, when you powershield you basically get IASA frames where you can do anything you want after the shielding action ends on frame 3. If you powershield an attack you still go through the shield drop animtion if you let go but since you get IASA frames you can attack or whatever right away. Since shielding happens on frames 1-3 at minimum, powershielding late gets you 2 more frames to do what you want as opposed to powershielding early. I haven't 100% verified this but it's pretty insignificant and also virtually impossible to powershield late as opposed to early on command anyway. You could probably shieldgrab, jump or up b to skip the rest of the shielding action if you powershield early though. Powershielding also gets rid of shieldstun and most of the shieldrecoil which makes almost any attack unsafe against it.

 

[B!squick]

Man... no offence to 3GOD but you sure are really thurough Big O. Epic frame data.

Awesome show too, by the way. :D

 

[Big O]

Thanks man and yeah the show is awesome. Lol I guess you would think I play ROB or something going by the name. Maybe I should for kicks in some casuals.

 

[UTDZac]

This is hard to read =(

 

[Ragnar0k]

When is the donkey punch done, because it doesn't seem to have much lag but I can't tell from the numbers.

 

[Big O]

For fully charged punches it happens on frame 18 behind you and 19-22 in front of you. For uncharged punches it happens as soon as frame 25 behind you and 26-29 in front of you. The reason it happens later for uncharged punches is that you take 7 frames to start charging. When fully charged you don't need to charge anymore so it happens faster. If you are already charging the punch come out at the same time as a fully charged one. Fully charged punches also have IASA frames 7 frames before uncharged punches would end if you punched at the same time. That is why the punch is 18,19-22/45 or 25,26-29/59. I just put a comma to distinguish between the hit behind DK and the rest of the punch since it has different knockback and most people count on hitting people in front of them. There is only one set of numbers for almost everything else so I can see how it might be confusing.

Which part did you find hard to read Zac? Is it the way the numbers are displayed or some of the descriptions?

 

[Ragnar0k]

So is the punch done on frame 45? It seems faster than that.

 

[Big O]

Yeah its done on frame 45 for fully charged and frame 59 for uncharged. The number after a / is when it ends. All of my numbers for ending frames take IASA frames into account. Since you can do anything out of IASA frames it might as well be the end of the move. The only real difference is that the animation for the move still goes on if you don't press anything. The fully charged punch has IASA frames starting at frame 45 so it ends at frame 45. The punch just seems a lot quicker than it is because it has such a big motion and impact.

 

[Ragnar0k]

Does it have IASA frames or something? Every time I punch it seems like there is almost no lag.

 

[Big O]

I think it's easier to see if you just compare things. The fully charged punch ends a bit before an airdodge and a bit after a Utilt. What tricks you though is the fact that there is a lot more motion going on with the punch. That makes it look faster than it really is when you try attacking right after it. The fact that you also attack before the animation for the punch is finished also makes it look faster.

 

[Zenjamin]

Hey bigO, is there a situation where an instantaneous forward+A is takes more frames to perform then a Csticked smash?


I am trying to figure out if there are any inherent downsides to setting to Cstick to do tilts and just doing quick smashes without it.

 

[Big O]

Well there are a few situations where it would be slower than a c-sticked Fsmash. Doing an Fsmash while walking would be slower since you have to change your direction or stop before you can input the Fsmash. If you don't press forward and A at the same time you could trip too. Doing pivot sliding smashes is also better when c-sticked. The only plus for setting your c-stick to tilts is Ftilting backwards while walking is faster. I would recommend practicing tilts by tilting the control stick just barely enough for tilts to come out. Learning how to do this will make tilts much easier and makes your movements more precise. This also helps you do non fastfalling Dairs too. Another useful thing to know is that if you hold a direction, c-sticking in that direcition counts as a tilt. If you hold a diagonaly downwards direction you can Dair without fastfalling and still be able to move while doing it.

 

[Zenjamin]

Well there are a few situations where it would be slower than a c-sticked Fsmash. Doing an Fsmash while walking would be slower since you have to change your direction or stop before you can input the Fsmash.

That makes sense... But when I tested it out, I really couldnt see much of a difference.

The extra time it takes to doa walking forward+A over a Cstick equates to the time it takes to move your thumb up just a tad and while the control stick starts to go to the middle, you just slam it forwards.

That sounded long, but try it out, after just a couple of tries it really is quite natural and quick.
I wasnt aple to tell the difference.

If you don't press forward and A at the same time you could trip too.

Everyone makes stupid mistakes. But if someone has a real problem with doing a smash with out the Cstick and tripping, they they have real coordination problems I think.

Doing pivot sliding smashes is also better when c-sticked.

Ive heard of these pivoted sliding smashes, but I must not begetting it right, because I never slide.
But I do pivot then smash the direction I was origionally facing if thats what you mean.


Anyways, I do mess up sometimes without the Cstick. But when I do get it, I cant tell the difference.
And if it turns out to be an important part of my game, I dont think it would be a verry hard thing to master.

The only plus for setting your c-stick to tilts is Ftilting backwards while walking is faster.

Umm... nope. If you have Cstick set to attack and you press back, it does his neutral one two punch.
... I dont think the high end DKs have really praticed with Csticked tilts.

But ya... I do it for the Utilts and the Dtilts to a lesser degree.

I would recommend practicing tilts by tilting the control stick just barely enough for tilts to come out. Learning how to do this will make tilts much easier and makes your movements more precise.

I tried what you suggested. And at least with tap jump on (which helps with allot of DKs upB tricks) there is no way I can get DKs Utilt to come out nearly as fast as I can when he can tilt with the Cstick.
Could you try it out? Am I missing something? no matter what degree I put the control stick to, when I try to do a quick tilt from the ground, I either end up doing a shorthopped Uair or an Usmash.

This also helps you do non fastfalling Dairs too. If you hold a diagonaly downwards direction you can Dair without fastfalling and still be able to move while doing it.

Wait... huh?
Did you not know that when the Cstick is set to do tilts, it still does air attacks? I have never had problems with FFing a Dair. or DIing one way while attacking the other.

Another useful thing to know is that if you hold a direction, c-sticking in that direcition counts as a tilt.

Thanks, I didnt know that... but it doesnt really help increase the speed of an Utilt. it just changes the Cstick to an A when it sees the proper imput.

 

[Big O]

I tried out c-sticked tilts a long time ago so I forgot about the jab thing. I already knew you could do aerials with c-sticked tilts but I was just speaking about the c-sticked smash setting for the non fastfalling Dairs. In fact, the reason I tried out c-sticked tilts was to do non fastfalling Dairs. When I learned how to do them with c-sticked smashes I switched back. The deal with tripping from non c-sticked smashes is that if you are even 1 frame off you could trip. Even though doing an Fsmash is easy, doing it as fast as you can while under pressure makes it easy to mess up. Walking Fsmashes are faster c-sticked because you can just have your right thumb on the c-stick in preparation for the Fsmash. With tap jump on it's the acceleration that makes you jump. If you tilt it up just enough for a Utilt it can be done fast, but if you go a bit past that region you will jump. The trick is doing it quickly and stopping before you go too high. With c-sticked smashes if you hold diagonally upwards, pressing up on the c-stick gets you Utilts. You could do it walking at full speed too.

If you really feel hindered with c-sticked smashes then don't bother changing it. There isn't that much of a difference in speed. A few frames is nothing compared to being able to do what you want comfortably.

 

[Big O]

I hope now with color you guys can read it more easily. I also split some of the attacks into parts to make it less confusing.

 

[Big O]

I would like some feedback on my format. Are the colors helpful? Should I change some of the colors? Is it confusing and how? Do you think the terminology is too advanced or not explained properly?

Basically tell me what gives you trouble and how to improve it.

 

[SuSa]

Change Purple to Red. Purple is hard and annoying to read.

Go to the Snake boards, read the "Everything you need to know" thread and find our Snake frame data.

I suggest using that format.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

actually that color purple is pretty easy to read

 

[SuSa]

Not for the skin I'm using. <_<

 

[Big O]

Hmmm. I originally had the purple as red but it seemed hard to read with the black background. The light purple also contrasts nicely with the yellow (lol laker colors) and green. What kind of background do you have SuSa? Would leaving the completion frame in white be better?

Edit: Okay I changed the magenta to plum. Is this a better color for you guys? I don't know why but the new color seems to have varying shades to it. I hope my eyes aren't playing tricks on me.

 

[SuSa]

Ok, that is much better. Thank you.

 

[Big O]

Lol I don't know how I overlooked that color. It's easier to read and looks much nicer. I looked at the Snake frame data and it seems a lot more space would be needed considering I have a lot more stuff. I'm probably pretty close to the limit as is. Would you say having more space between the attack name and the numbers be a good idea. Also would putting the names in caps be more helpful?

 

[ook]

Yeah put the names of the attacks in caps, or a bigger font size

 

[Big O]

Alright I put the names in a larger font size. I have to say it does make it easier on the eyes. Is there anything else you guys think would make this better?

I also beefed up the shieldstun data with frame advantage.

 

[Jmex]

Do you guys think we should add this as well? What do you think Big O?

when your shield's life reaches 0, the shield breaks.
when the shield breaks, every character flies up to a certain hight,
and after landing, the character goes in to stun animation.

the stun time is reduced when your percentage is high, and also can be reduced by stick/button inputs.


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
stun time = 400 - x - 3n
*time scale is in frames

x : the percent of the character
n : the number of inputs during the stun time
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

for example, if they don't struggle at 0%, it'll take about
8.7 seconds after they hit the ground until they can move again.
(400 + 45 + 79 = 524F = 8 sec and 44 frames)

for every 60%, they get out 1 second faster.


after the stun time ends, you have 45F time where you can't move.
also it takes 79F for the character to go in to stun animation after landing
so it is pretty much impossible to not get punished even when you have 0 stun time.

I found it on allisbrawl. It was on nothing.'s page.

 

[Big O]

That reminds me to (maybe later) do the same thing for side b. Figuring out how long they get stunned and how inputs affect the time. I think from what I have done a long time ago each input takes off 4 frames of stun. I also remember aerial side b having about the same stun as a grounded one with 24% more damage. So for example a grounded headbutt at 100% is the same as an aerial headbutt at 76%. Maybe I'll do some cargo hold stuff too I guess. I think since no matter how fast you mash you get warlock punched it isn't too helpful. It is good to know so I will eventually add it.

Thanks man.

 

[SuSa]

For cargo hold, isn't the best input to just hold/mash up?

Also you should test the grounded headbutt stun at intervals of 25% (or 50%)

EG:

0%
25%
50%
75%
100%
125%
doesn't really matter after this (IMO... lol)

 

[Big O]

Holding up does work but it isn't instant breakout at high %'s. I'm pretty sure at like 100% it you can stage spike a person holding up about 1/5 of FD length away from the edge. Knowing the formula makes decision-making easier. Testing it out could help people find out how far they can walk before holding up would break out. Also if you grab Nana and you are away from Popo I'm pretty sure there is no resistance so that's another thing we should to look into.

 

[Ragnar0k]

DK can get grabbed while cargoing someone. It sucks.