Dixie Kong's Barrel Of Support Spirits. Farewell Everyone, Thank You ALL For Making This Thread An Excellent Place For DK Fans!

[pupNapoleon]

14000 Posts reached!

Only 1000 more and then we are at 15k!

 

[Mushroomguy12]

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Even if Dixie was in the new Mario Golf, she probably wouldn’t have much expressions. That DK comparison is depressing.

Yeah that expression stuff is depressing and is endemic of a widespread sterilization among the Mario spin offs.

But I'd still prefer Dixie to be in a (relatively) sterilized game than to not be there at all, if only for the health of the character.

 

[pupNapoleon]

Yeah that expression stuff is depressing and is endemic of a widespread sterilization among the Mario spin offs.

But I'd still prefer Dixie to be in a (relatively) sterilized game than to not be there at all, if only for the health of the character.

Better to be in the Plastics hating life, than to not be in the Plastics at all.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

I'm sure that is true- I just remember going over so many friends houses, and since you start with the humans- and at the time, the other characters seemed to take a good amount of time to unlock- the majority of the time, it was primarily humans.
Why were there even regular people in the first place? Who plays a Mario game for that reason?

Part of might have been to allow for a more standard golf experience for those that just wanted that, but I think on some level it was allow for a bigger selection of those to choose from. Its easy to forget now, but Mario Golf on 64 was essentially the last time Nintendo didn't really dive in deep to their characters to fill pad out a game roster. Golf's cast is essentially MK64's minus Toad plus two Mario variations (Baby & Metal) and generic humans. The concept of utilizing mooks, reviving old favorites, or even creating outright new characters didn't take off until Mario Tennis a year later at which point every multi-player Mario title starting doing it.

 

[pupNapoleon]

Part of might have been to allow for a more standard golf experience for those that just wanted that, but I think on some level it was allow for a bigger selection of those to choose from. Its easy to forget now, but Mario Golf on 64 was essentially the last time Nintendo didn't really dive in deep to their characters to fill pad out a game roster. Golf's cast is essentially MK64's minus Toad plus two Mario variations (Baby & Metal) and generic humans. The concept of utilizing mooks, reviving old favorites, or even creating outright new characters didn't take off until Mario Tennis a year later at which point every multi-player Mario title starting doing it.

Well, Kamek was originally to be in Mario Kart 64 before being replaced by Wario.
And never have we seen Kamek playable in any game at all.

I miss DK jr.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Well, Kamek was originally to be in Mario Kart 64 before being replaced by Wario.
And never have we seen Kamek playable in any game at all.

I miss DK jr.

Kamek's been playable in Tetris Attack, Mario Party 9, Mario Golf World Tour, Mario Tennis Aces, and Dr. Mario World. (And technically was a playable skin in Minecraft, but I won't count that since it's just a costume).

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Well, Kamek was originally to be in Mario Kart 64 before being replaced by Wario.
And never have we seen Kamek playable in any game at all.

I miss DK jr.

As noted by Mushroomguy12 he's popped up as playable in a few titles. Not yet in a Mario Kart title, but it feels like he's getting closer and closer.

 

[pupNapoleon]

Kamek's been playable in Tetris Attack, Mario Party 9, Mario Golf World Tour, Mario Tennis Aces, and Dr. Mario World. (And technically was a playable skin in Minecraft, but I won't count that since it's just a costume).

I've been schooled.

 

[InASnowBoundLand]

Mario Kart Tour is actually pretty good when you get past the latent exploitative gambling system that most philosophical traditions would look down upon.

And they did a good job on Dixie's personality there. Although Dixie's voice...try not to play as Dixie near any fragile mirrors or vases.

 

[pupNapoleon]

So, as far as Nintendo All Stars go, we have 4-5 left in my eyes.

• Meowth
• Eevee
• Captain Toad
• Tom Nook (the debatable one)
• Dixie Kong

Of these, we have two Pokeballs, a moveset, and a Final Smash.
I don't understand why Dixie is nowhere, if she isn't intended to be made at some point.

 

[Ridley_Prime]

Even from day one, would argue Meowth was a missed opportunity, but Pokemon mainly just focuses on the new gens now with Smash, so the cat would have to get a lot of push in support if he were to ever happen (plus having to deal with people saying gen 1 has enough reps already, etc). The others besides Dixie I don't have much an opinion on, but I lowkey would've liked to see a playable Toad in some form. Used to be my favorite in Mario Kart, and feel he's a more glaring omission than Waluigi.

 

[pupNapoleon]

Even from day one, would argue Meowth was a missed opportunity, but Pokemon mainly just focuses on the new gens now with Smash, so the cat would have to get a lot of push in support if he were to ever happen (plus having to deal with people saying gen 1 has enough reps already, etc). The others besides Dixie I don't have much an opinion on, but I lowkey would've liked to see a playable Toad in some form. Used to be my favorite in Mario Kart, and feel he's a more glaring omission than Waluigi.

People would absolutely complain about gen 1 blah blah blah- despite the fact that Meowth has been the second most prominent character in the anime (which has dictated a significant amount of Pokemon content in Smash), and that Kanto appears in almost every generation.

That said, who cares what people will argue? Every few weeks there is some ridiculous new fan rule that holds absolutely no merit except from its limited scope.

 

[Diddy Kong]

So, as far as Nintendo All Stars go, we have 4-5 left in my eyes.

• Meowth
• Eevee
• Captain Toad
• Tom Nook (the debatable one)
• Dixie Kong

Of these, we have two Pokeballs, a moveset, and a Final Smash.
I don't understand why Dixie is nowhere, if she isn't intended to be made at some point.

I'll agree with Tom Nook, (Captain) Toad and Dixie of course, not too sure about the Pokemon. I mean, first generation Pokemon as Blastoise, Snorlax, Raichu, Gengar, Machamp and the like could be considered just as iconic honestly. Especially Blastoise I feel, as the posterboy for Pokemon Blue. Not that I'd expect him to make it on his own, but all these Pokemon I mentoined could be semi clones, or at least be build around movesets and body types of current Smash fighters.

I also think Impa could be added here, and Ganon. Both still appear in Zelda games, and originate from the very first game. Very underrated. Bandana Dee is another one that should be considered.

 

[pupNapoleon]

I'll agree with Tom Nook, (Captain) Toad and Dixie of course, not too sure about the Pokemon. I mean, first generation Pokemon as Blastoise, Snorlax, Raichu, Gengar, Machamp and the like could be considered just as iconic honestly. Especially Blastoise I feel, as the posterboy for Pokemon Blue. Not that I'd expect him to make it on his own, but all these Pokemon I mentoined could be semi clones, or at least be build around movesets and body types of current Smash fighters.

I also think Impa could be added here, and Ganon. Both still appear in Zelda games, and originate from the very first game. Very underrated. Bandana Dee is another one that should be considered.

I don't think any of your Pokemon could be considered as popular.
They are popular, sure... but Meowth is the second most recognizable Pokemon, after Pikachu. Like it or not, the anime has made a huge impact on what we get in Smash Bros. He is synonymous with the name.
Eevee, likewise always popular, has been a rising star- to the point of being the second mascot for the most recent remakes of Gen 1- the one to parallel Pikachu, of all Pokemon. Eevee has been used as a symbol for the mechanic of evolution, introduces the lines through multiple generations, and is even the Pokemon used in game at the end of game to the starter the original choice.
I highly stand by this.

I would say Impa isn't quite there- mostly because she has so many, widely varying designs. Whereas my other characters listed seem to be known heavily outside their games individually, Impa seems to be the next most important character in her series, but known primarily to Zelda (and Smash) audiences.

 

[ZeroJanitor]

(-nothing-)

 

[Ridley_Prime]

Blastoise (and by extension Venusaur) was done dirty by all the endless Charizard worship. The turtle used to be one of my favorites too, but just fell into obscurity. Makes me more thankful for Mewtwo's return in perseverance at least, even if he's just kinda there now for me when it comes to Smash. He may not be seen as that hype anymore like during Sm4sh, but important thing is he's back where he belongs.

Characters that were known mostly to their series and Smash audiences have gotten in (Ridley and such), so don't see how that's a point against Impa. Ganon would be great too, yeah, especially as a likely better alternative to 'Dorf. The problem with Zelda I guess (at least from what I've observed) is there being a number of good options but not one particular character most agree should get in, while with DK you just have Dixie now and maybe Cranky as an alternative.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

People don't mention Tingle because he's widely unpopular in the West (to the point where Nintendo never even released most of his games in Europe and never in North America, and even in a series like Smash that's gone for unorthodox picks for franchise representation it would be pretty surprising to see it go for him.

 

[Spatman]

People don't mention Tingle because he's widely unpopular in the West (to the point where Nintendo never even released most of his games in Europe and never in North America, and even in a series like Smash that's gone for unorthodox picks for franchise representation it would be pretty surprising to see it go for him.

And I can feel how West feels about Tingle because it's exactly what I feel too

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

People don't mention Tingle because he's widely unpopular in the West (to the point where Nintendo never even released most of his games in Europe and never in North America, and even in a series like Smash that's gone for unorthodox picks for franchise representation it would be pretty surprising to see it go for him.

Actually, his popularity in the West has steadily increased. His inclusion in Hyrule Warriors was met well.

 

[pupNapoleon]

Interestingly, whenever people talk about what Zelda characters to add to Smash, they always seem to overlook a particular character. One who appears across many Zelda games, maintains a fairly consistent design, is well-known, and even had their own game.

And frankly, I would not put it past Smash to add Tingle as a playable character at some point.

I have never seen anyone mention Lynel either- and quite honestly, given what we know so far, I see that as the most likely newcomer from Hyrule.

Blastoise (and by extension Venusaur) was done dirty by all the endless Charizard worship. The turtle used to be one of my favorites too, but just fell into obscurity. Makes me more thankful for Mewtwo's return in perseverance at least, even if he's just kinda there now for me when it comes to Smash. He may not be seen as that hype anymore like during Sm4sh, but important thing is he's back where he belongs.

The funny think about this is that Pokemon Blue actually sold the most here, if I recall. There is a great Youtube video about why Charizard is so popular, and ultimately, it all comes down to the Card- it being given such revered stats translated into the anime choice for Ash, and it rapidly excellerated.

 

[ZeroJanitor]

FTR my post was meant to be tongue-in-cheek; I know the West inexplicably hates Tingle and that's why it's funny to me that everyone defaults to Impa as the Smash pick instead.

I don't really get the appeal of Charizard over the other starters either, but he's in Smash and Dixie Kong isn't so maybe I'm just bad at picking favorites. (shrug)

 

[ChronoBound]

I have wanted to give my thoughts on the announcements and unveils that occurred at E3 for a while. It took me nearly three weeks to write this response. There are many different topics that I touch upon and express my thoughts and ideas for. I have not done a post like this in half a year, so it took me quite a while to write what I wanted to say.

Spoiler: Very long response to many different posts

I only now have the time to comment and speak my thoughts on the E3 direct. Overall, it was a very good direct even though we did not get an unveil to that rumored DK title. Unfortunately, we probably will not see it this year (assuming it even does exist).

I think I pretty much made a fool of myself in the last two posts I made in this thread. Two of my predictions were flat out wrong (namely the new DK and Halo Master Chief Collection for Switch being announced). Also, like much of my Pass 2 predictions, the newcomer that ended up being unveiled turned out to be wrong (Kazuya was not part of my list, and the only Namco character I had for my "pool" was Lloyd).

My prediction was that this thread would be bittersweet after the direct (happy about the new DK being unveiled and K. Rool and the Kremlings returning, but sad over Dixie Kong not showing up in that title). Instead the result ended up being pretty silence and little to say in general. Kazuya was a character very few saw coming (especially with Heihachi's Mii costume that returned a year ago). It is truly peculiar to me why the Lloyd Mii costume was not brought back a year ago, while the Heihachi one was.

At the very least this instance should give hope to those who want to see a Capcom newcomer. I said before that even though all of the Smash 4 Capcom Mii costumes have been brought back, there are still properties to which new Mii costumes could be drawn from for a Capcom newcomers's fighter pack. I have more to say on Challenger Pack 11 later on in this post.

There were quite a few highlights in the direct for me. The biggest for myself was the unveil to Metroid Dread. A 2D Metroid being developed by Mercury Stream was one of my predictions, but I was not expecting the unveil of the long rumored Metroid Dread. I remember first hearing about it back in 2006, and I was excited for it then, only to be disappointed that it never materialized (though this was mitigated by the unveil for the Wii's first wave of software, particularly Brawl). To see it materialize again all these years later, is quite surreal.

Moreover, Sakamoto, the director for most of the 2D games, had this to say on it:
"The series has chronicled the uncanny relationship between these Metroids and the heroine Samus, but this game will mark an end to that story arc. We're hoping fans of the series will wonder "what does 'mark an end to the story arc' mean?" as they play the game."

Dread will not be the final game in the series, but it will probably be the final game in the series (at least for the 2D line) dealing with the parasitic lifeforms called Metroids. This can similarly be paralleled with the Smash Bros. series. Ultimate is certainly not the last game to this series, but it is likely the final one where the evolution was simply growing the roster and stage count to the highest number possible, of which Ultimate has shown the limits to that. While the next game in the Smash series is likely to jettison a sizeable portion to the present roster, it will at the same time be take different evolutionary paths for the Smash series (I am personally expecting more along the lines of additional single player modes and possibly even adding non-game characters to the roster).

Only time will tell, however, I have a feeling Ultimate is the conclusion to Smash as we presently know it, and the next installment will be quite a bit different (assuming it is not simply an enhanced port of Ultimate). For myself, Ultimate was the culmination for what I had hoped for in regards to the series, but for many others it was not. Hopefully, they will get what they want when the series does go down a new direction.

I was also excited about WarioWare Get It Together. This is the first WarioWare installment I am looking to get since Smooth Moves which was a launch window title for the Wii. I was also glad to see Advance/Famicom Wars finally get a resurrection of sorts through the enhanced ports to the GBA titles. Overall, a very nice E3 presentation from Nintendo and their partners.

I will share more of my thoughts on Kazuya later on in this post.

I am hoping for a double reveal so that we can move on from Smash speculation already. It's time that we move on to greener pastures and it's time for Sakurai to move on from Smash like you said.

Sakurai did not say he was going to retire from making Smash Bros., only that he was going to retire his column in Famitsu by the end of the this year.

Regardless of what happens on Tuesday, this thread has reached the Top 3 of active individual support threads for Ultimate, being one of the only active 3 individual threads to have over 10,000 replies and 1,000,000 views. It's amazing how far we have come and how much it has grown, and it shows that love for Dixie and DKC is as strong as ever!

This milestone is even more impressive when given the consideration that Dixie has not been seen as likely since the base game period. This thread grew considerably during the DLC period despite Dixie being largely seen as unlikely for a myriad of reasons. It is really quite peculiar to see Dixie have so much support on this site when support for her tends to be rather quiet.

I noticed activity though has slowed down significantly this year. Though the same could be said for all of the dedicated character support threads. Even the Crash Bandicoot thread during the run up to E3 did not have as much activity as a character whom many believed to be the most likely character to be revealed there.

There is now only a single fighter left to be unveiled. For the whole second half of this year there will only be a single unveil. I think due to this, activity in many of the support threads will decline further, including in this one.

Still, there is at least three months until we get the final unveil (it could be anywhere from September to November). We can use that time to continue to express our support for Dixie Kong and the Donkey Kong series in various ways.

It is a shame that a new DK title was not unveiled at E3 because that could buoyed this thread (especially if Dixie was shown in the unveil trailer) in the remaining few months before the final newcomer is unveiled.

I think this thread will be a lot slower in the second half of 2021 than it was during the first half.

Coming in wishing you guys luck tomorrow. If there's anyone that's overdue to be in Smash, it's everyone's favorite chimp girl here.

Here's to y'all. You all earn it.

Thank you for the warm wishes. I apologize for not addressing it in my "11th hour pre-E3 post", but I was really rushing to get that post out. In the end things did not pan out, but I (and I am sure many others in this thread) appreciate it.

Considering that,

Spoiler

many of my E3 predictions are turning out to be true

, I want to use this late hour to help prepare for the scenario that many of us would not like to see, namely that Dixie Kong will not make an appearance in the new DK title that is rumored to be unveiled later today.

In a few hours, I feel my "pessimism" will be completely vindicated.

Looking back at this particular spot in my previous post, I do not like the hubris in my first few sentences. At the time I wrote that, it seemed as though various insiders (particularly Vergeben) were saying some of my predictions were going to happen (namely a new DK unveiled and Master Chief as newcomer, Master Chief was part of my pool of possible newcomers). I should have waited more, and I especially should not have spoken based off what was essentially going around as gossip and pass it off as an accomplishment that my predictions were correct. In the end, the predictions I got correct were a new 2D Metroid developed by Mercury Stream and Breath of the Wild 2 being showcased. My other predictions did not end up happening, and even the Smash newcomer that was shown off was not part of my pool of characters I was predicting. I apologize.

My "pessimism" did not unfold in this instance, but I still do not feel optimistic that Dixie Kong is going to return or have a major role in that rumored new DK title. I think the next title is going to basically have DKC Returns set of characters (DK, Diddy, Cranky, maybe Rambi and Squawks) only with K. Rool and the Kremlings and maybe some more DKC1 animal buddies (Expresso, Winky, maybe Enguarde).

For all it's worth, I am putting all my hopes on Dixie being part of the new DK-game, if to only close our times together on a high note and discuss both the fun prospects of the game and her appearance in it bringing.

As always, your reflections are nothing short of thought-provoking despite our shared bittersweetness. It's gonna be little strange to say but all I hope now is that your pessimistic expectations with Dixie don't get vindicated this time....

As you've rallied it with us before: Dixie Kong for Smash Bros., ChronoBound .



The storm's brewing ever closer. I'll be seeing you after the rainclouds settle.

Thank you for your warm words.

The last sentence in your post also reminded me of this piece of DKC3 fan art:

⚡Lightning Lookout⚡#DKC3 #DixieKong pic.twitter.com/O3te7hEkgB

— Walldryx (@LesWalldryx) May 19, 2020

This art is based off Lightning Lookout, one of the final levels in DKC3 (outside of the hidden final world, Krematoa). It is a heartwarming piece and I like how it takes into consideration DKC3's lighter nature compared to the previous two titles in the DKC trilogy. Here you have Dixie Kong consoling Kiddy Kong under a leaf (and a Red Buzzer) sharing the shelter with several DKC3 enemies, Krimp (the purple quadruped Kremling), Bounty Bird (the bird), Knik-Knak (the bug on Kiddy's shoulder), and Re-Koil (the orange Kremling). I really like how the Kongs and their enemies temporarily put aside their antagonism to share shelter from the lightning storm. All of the enemies (except Re-Koil, who looks peeved that he cannot do his enemy duties) look as worried or concerned about the storm as Kiddy Kong. Dixie shows a nurturing side to her by consoling Kiddy, and her facial expression says quite a bit.

As for why the Red Buzzer is on top of the leaf. Red Buzzers are an enemy that are immune to the lightning in Lightning Lookout. The Red Buzzer in this art piece is cooperating with the Kongs and the other DKC3 enemies to protect them from the lighting.

I would like to give credit to InASnowBoundLand for finding this art piece for me. Here is where the artist originally posted it:

https://twitter.com/Walldryx/status/1262769264068636672

ChronoBound thank you so VERY much! I've always taken your essays to heart and appreciated every post. It shows in your 20 year history that you're very wise, even in the post Brawl days I regarded your posts with respect, and when you first commented in this thread it was a great surprise to see such a long-time fan support Dixie. You certainly have my respect.

Thank you very much for the warm words and appreciation. I am moved by your words of praise and that you even remember my work from the post-Brawl/pre-Smash 4 days. In general, it is remarkable to me when someone remembers me in general considering I am barely active at all these days in character support and roster speculation.

I still would like to thank you for your efforts in maintaining this thread. It reminds me of how character support topics used to be in prior epochs, and its the one place left where I still feel like sharing my thoughts, analyses, and ideas. You have done a great job of maintaining this thread.

We are now in the twilight of Ultimate's speculation with only a single character left to speculate about. Even still, there are a few things left for me to say that some might find interesting.

Well, I guess we still have a tiny sliver of hope for a couple of months lol.

Same as the past couple of years I guess.

As I said in one of my two pre-E3 posts, I thought the penultimate slot was the only one to which Dixie had a "tiny sliver of hope" to happen. Namely as a possible tie in to the possible new DK title unveil. With the new DK title probably not being unveiled until 2022 (or even not existing at all), I cannot see how Dixie could plausibly end up being a newcomer for Ultimate. I also said before that I find it extremely unlikely that Dixie Kong is the character to close out Ultimate. Even still, I think we should still see this out to the end, even if Dixie's chance are probably like 1% at this point.

Just look at Kazuya. Speculation on a Tekken character happening for Ultimate basically died after Heihachi's Mii costume returned a year ago, and yet now there is going to be an entire Challenger Pack revolving around the Tekken series.

Many characters that seemed unlikely got added in (and by the inverse, many characters that seemed likely did not get added in). There have been many curveballs thrown over the course of the Ultimate epoch.

I still hope that Dixie Kong is granted a miracle and somehow ends up being a part of Ultimate's legendary roster.

I think the identity to the final newcomer will be unveiled anywhere from September to November. We are nearing the end.

I think Dixie might have a decent shot now. Smash never ends on a big note and I suspect that the last fighter is gonna be a 1st party.

Worth keeping an eye on her, plus there was that pink color theory going on a while back.

I think "not ending on a big note" is a pretty foolish fan rule, and many fan rules pretty much got dismantled over the course of Ultimate. Heck, just look at the reveal of Kazuya. Very few people thought Tekken had a shot anymore due to the Heihachi Mii costume releasing a year ago.

There are quite a few characters that I think many would see as a high note if they were the newcomer for Challenger Pack 11. Master Chief, Dante, and Phoenix Wright come to mind.

My personal intuition tells me that is the final character is going to be a Shin Megami Tensei character though given how much Nintendo is promoting Shin Megami Tensei V and the fact that game is coming out in November. It is up to you to determine whether ending with this character is a high note or not (a lot of people online are very passionate about this series).

However, even if it is not a character one would consider a "high note" I highly doubt it would be Dixie Kong for a variety of reasons.

Here's hoping we get a dedicated DK Direct next month.

Next month is the 40th anniversary of the DK franchise, but I doubt Nintendo will acknowledge it outside of a tweet. The 35th anniversary of Zelda simply received Skyward Sword HD and a promotional Zelda Game & Watch.

Guess the DK game is a 2022 title.

Even 2022 is looking packed. Breath of the Wild 2 and Splatoon 3 are both massive titles. There is also Metroid Prime 4 and Bayonetta 3 which were announced but have yet to be fully unveiled. I wonder if this rumored DK title actually does exist. I do think the Donkey Kong franchise is very long overdue for a new game. We are closing in on eight years since the last fully new DK title (Tropical Freeze first released in February 2014).

I actually have a lot to say on Donkey Kong as a franchise, and how it basically went into decline after the Rare buyout, and why it has not been able to go back to the highs it saw during the SNES generation. I would like to put out a sizeable essay on the series. I do plan to factor Dixie Kong into it as well.

Even though DK64 was a massive sales success (probably within the Top 5 best selling Nintendo 64 titles), I think the decline to the series might have started there. The DKC trilogy had a particular identity that contrasted itself with Nintendo's other platforming franchises, while DK64 was essentially a Banjo-Kazooie title with a DK skin, it even had leftover ideas and music from Banjo-Kazooie utilized for it. When I make my DK essay I will get more into this.

I would like to get this DK essay out in July to coincide with the 40th anniversary of the series, but we shall see what happens. This post alone took far longer to complete than I had expected.

DK has a 40 year history and a very interesting one at that.

Well, even though I was hoping for a new DK, I still had a lot of other wishes fulfilled from Nintendo so I'm moderately pleased. Obviously it would have been even better with DK, but I'll take what I can get.

Although when I saw those bananas on Super Monkey Ball my brain for a split second thought it was DK.....

For myself, it was really nice to see Metroid Dread, a new WarioWare, and Advance Wars get brought back, It was a good E3 presentation from Nintendo overall.

Ending on Dixie is definitely not ending on a low note.

I agree very strongly with this. There would be a few people whining about it, but I believe many would bring up just Dixie's legacy as a retort.

If the Switch pro is real, maybe they're holding back the new DK game to coincide with its release?
Imagine that 4K fur.

I would not be surprised. One of the old pulls to DK (even going into the GameCube era with Jungle Beat) was the high graphical prowess to the series,

Man things got quiet around here after the Direct. Since the final reveal is still MIA that means we can still build some goodwill for Dixie until the Dawn of the Final Day. More moveset ideas will be on the way.

I think for a lot of people, they are not sure if they will have the same kind of energy for further speculation and guessing in the next three months. Part of the hope for a dual reveal was that the DLC could effectively be wrapped up and regardless of the choices for the final two characters; things would be finished. Now though its going to be drawn out till until at the earliest the possible September Direct and I think some are just running out of steam.

It is going to be struggle for a lot of people to keep the hype going.

I think fanbases in general are just packing ot up now. There's only one character left. The issue is that not only was Kazuya not on people's radar, but Sakurai himself originally kind of shot down the idea of Tekken being added solely due to implementation. So what everyone thought was a narrowing selection of characters ended up being any one's guess now.

Plus, this has been one of the worse Smash speculation cycles in general. More people celebrating who isn't added than who is, happily "sticking it" to fanbases just because they were obnoxious in some degree. Plus, people have been acting like the speculation was far more important than the game itself. I think people are just burned out by it all.

This post conveys a lot of the same idea which is the decline to various character support bases, and in general less passion and interest than there was at the start of the DLC cycle for Ultimate. There are a few factors for this.

One is that over the course of Pass 2, none of the characters that got selected were ones that much of the fanbase was predicting. A large part of various character fanbases is due to the perceived belief that the particular character is likely and that a reveal for that particular character is imminent. Some character fanbases such as Geno's, even revolved around "leak culture".

I do not think any of Pass 2's newcomers were leaked. Neither was Byleth. Terry was only leaked due to a mistake on Nintendo's part (the copyright holder to the next fighter was accidentally released).

"Leak culture" drying up eliminated quite a bit of the tinder that was driving a few character support bases.

Another factor is that the game is now closing in on three years since its release, and as such, Ultimate is increasingly becoming old news, and the attention for a lot of people is being drawn elsewhere.

Another factor is that this site is slowly losing more users than gaining new ones. This happened during the second half of the 2010's, but it accelerated after Ultimate's release. Also, many of the new users basically only went into either the social thread or the newcomer/dlc thread., pretty much ignoring the character support threads (aside from maybe the Geno one). The hostile atmosphere in these threads ended up driving both many of these new users out as well as burning out many long time ones.

Dixie Kong has not been seen as a likely character addition since the base game period. What has largely been driving this thread is discussion and passion for the character herself as well as the DK series as a whole. The love for the series as a whole and its characters can also be extended to the other large threads that are still around such as Isaac (Golden Sun) and Shantae.

Also, as some of you said, with only a single character left, there is not much left to look forward to, and many fanbases are coming to terms with the fact that their character of choice likely will not make Ultimate's roster.

It will be interesting to see what happens with the Dixie Kong thread in the twilight of Ultimate's DLC period. I was hoping that a new DK (especially if Dixie Kong is a part of it) would buoy this thread until Ultimate's DLC concluded, but it looks like this thread might simply continue the same existence it had for most of the Ultimate DLC speculation period, albeit with even less activity.

I actually think, if there is a bonus character this FP, that it is gonna be Dixie Kong.
Not expecting, but... given this entire pass has been missed opportunities...and Dixie Kong was the most prominent of the known missed characters...

(Granted... as many Nintendo characters as I still want- Toad, Meowth, and Dixie Kong are the ones I cannot deny are actual All Stars).


Not an attack: This mentally you described is absolutely selfish.
"I'm tired of playing the game, so no one should get to play."
I'm hoping for more FIghters Passes.

I do not think I have commented on the hypothetical of a bonus fighter in this thread yet, however, here is my belief on it.

Sakurai has said at many points that Pass 2 is all that is left for Ultimate content. Once Pass 2 is finished, Sakurai has said development for Ultimate will be finished.

Also, I think most speculators have overlooked this, but there are two character select screens. One with all the echoes having their own slots (as well as the three different Mii Fighters having their own), and the one where the echoes are stacked (along with the three Mii Fighters stacked into a single slot). At the end of Pass 2, the stacked (echoes and Mii Fighters stacked) roster becomes a filled box, while the non-stacked roster will still have four empty spots leftover.

There will be 78 slots on the stacked roster, 91 on the non-stacked roster (with four spots not being filled).

Assuming this bonus fighter is not an echo, that would make it so that the stacked roster would have to have 79 slots.

79 is a prime number. As such any sort of configuration with a number of 79 filled slots, is going to leave an empty slots on the stacked screen. Keep in mind that even at the end of Pass 1, the stacked character select screen became a filled box. The dimensions would probably be 7 rows of 12, which would leave five empty slots on that character select screen.

As such, I think that any hypothetical bonus fighter is one of two possibilities:
1. Octoling (echo of Inkling): Done to promote Splatoon 3 and act as a sort of full circle for Ultimate considering Inkling was the first newcomer confirmed for it.
2. Jeanne (echo of Bayonetta): Done to promote Bayonetta 3, and perhaps act as a similar way of concluding Ultimate the same way Smash 4 was concluded (where Bayonetta was the final character).

There is also the possibility that a "bonus fighter" ends up being Master Hand, especially given the consideration that:

Spoiler: World of Light spoilers

There is no way to replay that fight in World of Light where you get to play as him. I thought there would be a separate mode that would allow you to replay this fight, but it never happened. It might be a final DLC perk to add a Master Hand mode to multi-man Smash.

A last minute echo fighter is the primary possibility I see for a bonus fighter.

While Dixie Kong might be able to work as an echo fighter (namely as a Ken-style echo), implementing her would take far more effort than most echo fighter possibilities (she would at the very least need Chrom's level of differentiation with an unique recovery and Final Smash), and as such, she would not be an attractive option for a last minute character addition.

As for additional fighter passes, I would like to see more content for Ultimate as well. However, Sakurai and his team are likely fatigued at this point having worked on Smash for essentially a decade at this point (development for Smash 4 began in early 2012), Sakurai is constantly making jokes about how he is never able to take a break. As Sakurai said, "everything must eventually come to an end", and I think Ultimate's last content coming out about three years after the base game's launch is a long enough cycle for this title.

I did at one point think that an echo fighters pass could be developed simultaneously with Pass 2 (it would have only three or four characters in it), but we are now way too late in Pass 2 for something like that to be announced. Personally, I would have liked to have seen the non-stacked character select screen filled completely (91 slots total), but its a miracle we got as much DLC content as we did currently.

My prediction is that the newcomer for Challenger Pack 11 is all that is left after Kazuya.

I tempered my expectations so, strangely, I wasn't bothered about no DK. I might have a slight grudge against Super Monkey Ball though. Saw the bananas and coins immediately thought DK. Of course, DK isn't celebrating it's 20th lol. I'm actually quite excited for the game however. Love Monkey Ball.

I'm personally hyped for Kazuya. I'm a huge Tekken fan, and Kazuya is one of my mains from that franchise.

My brother and I got excited for Cruisin. I think we might be the only ones excited though lol.

I'm excited for Metroid and Zelda, too! Overall, it is the best showing at E3, just could've been better with DK.

I do not think that I shared my thoughts on Kazuya yet. Personally, I was not expecting a Tekken character to happen after Heihachi's Mii costume was brought back a year ago. The only Namco character that I was seriously expecting was Lloyd and that was largely due to the fact that his Mii costume is the only remaining third-party Mii costume that has yet to return in Ultimate, as well as Namco saying their promotion for the 25th anniversary of Tales would extend into this year.

Tekken is a very deserving franchise, and its likely Namco's most famous gaming franchise after Pac-Man. It had a profound influence on the fighting genre, especially 3D fighters (along with Virtua Fighter). Heihachi is seen as the most recognizable character for the series, but it might have been the case he was passed over due to his voice actor, Unsho Ishizuka, passing away back in 2018. Interesting note, he also voiced Incineroar (the Japanese voice actor for him) for Ultimate.

Heihachi also died in Tekken 7's storyline.

As such, Kazuya is very likely the next biggest Tekken character after Heihachi. I have little familiarity with Tekken, so I cannot comment further.

Overall, I have no problem with Kazuya's inclusion, and Tekken does deserve a place on Ultimate's roster. It will be interesting to see what sort of additional content gets announced tomorrow.

It was already like that before Ultimate tbh, and the results of some character reveals tend to always kill speculation far as what to expect, making speculating itself often pointless. When it comes to just passionately supporting a character or series I like such as Dixie I'll pitch in, but beyond that... Burnt out.


p.s. I meant to make some thought out good luck post here earlier like others were around 11th hour prior to the E3 thing, but never found the time with something I was busy playing prior to that day. It's just as well though.

I know there will always be another Smash (just like there will always be another Mario Kart, etc), but I've had so much fulfillment from Ultimate, I honestly wouldn't be mad if it was my last one. Depending on the roster/cuts and direction of the next Smash or the one after that, I may skip it. Nothing lasts forever, and if I don't have the same fulfillment with Smash anymore, I'm not obligated to continue supporting it. Mostly speaking in the context of an NU Smash that's post-Sakurai (because face it, Smash will outlive him whether he returns again next time or not), but still, I've had my fill and rides with the series up to this point.

I feel largely the same way. There have been a few series to which I was a very big fan of in the past that I no longer care much for. It does not even mean a decline in the series's quality (for some of these series, they are now far more popular than when I was very strongly interested in them). You eventually move away from various series for different reasons. Also, I have had less time for games in general as I have gotten older. Even making posts such as this one take up a lot of my free time, which I do not have much of anymore.

For myself Smash Bros. has been a major part of my life for over 20 years, and I have been involved in online discussions for Smash for 20 years now. It has been a very long journey.

Dixie should have been the bonus character in the base roster instead of Piranha Plant, tbh. Piranha Plant was pretty forgettable even as a "joke" character, to the point where most forget its on the roster. Should have been Dixie, IMO.

I personally have no problem with Piranha Plant. I think he serves as a poignant example of the futility of guessing every slot of the roster. He also serves as a superb example of the absolute subjectivity to the argument of "moveset potential". If a traditionally immobile Mario enemy can be made into an inventive Smash fighter, then pretty much any potential newcomer can also claim the same.

It is also worth pointing out that Ultimate's inclusion of Piranha Plant was the first time that particular Mario enemy was ever made playable. That alone is distinctive considering how iconic Piranha Plant is to the Mario franchise, probably being the most well known Mario enemy outside of Goomba and Koopa Troopas.

This is coming from someone who feels Toad should have been added to Smash Bros.'s roster a very long time ago as well.

Haven't been posting here since before the E3 Direct, I didn't shave the highest expectations for a DK game honestly since I saw the presentation was 'just' 50 minutes. I don't know why, something my intuition caught on.

That being said, I was not disappointed. A new Metroid is coming, which makes two new Metroid games for the Switch. And of course Wario Ware and Advance Wars are back too. This not only gives me hope for Donkey Kong, but for Golden Sun too. There's more they're working on they said. I have a lot of faith in Nintendo at the moment to deliver quality. At the very least, Metroid Dread and the BotW sequel will keep me interested.

Dixie's chances haven't become any slimmer either since this all. I think she would make sense as a final fighter reveal, coupled with a reveal for the new DK game we're all waiting on. But it's probably not the case.

But am pretty sure that Smash Ultimate is gonna be the building block, or main engine for all coming Smash games in the future. Wether Sakurai is the director or not. I wouldn't mind this game being less of a third party crossover giant as Ultimate is however, I was never too big on that anyway. I also hold no bitter feelings towards Kazuya either. It anything I like the addition, cause I feel fighting game characters make for great additions in Smash.

Anyway, I see Dixie as a logical inclusion that will happen eventually, maybe not when most of us are as involved with Smash as we are now. But that's just how life goes. Maybe the best Donkey Kong game ever will release when am over 50 years old? We shouldn't be too bitter over these things, and enjoy whatever we have when we're still here. With everything in life, just be grateful you have it cause no moment is ever promised you know. I'll be 31 within a month and a half, and this retrospective look on things makes me really question why I was always so anxious and nervous about things having to go as I wanted, or what I feel like is best, and now having myself laugh as if I or anyone have any control about anything except how we react to it.

We're a positive and optimistic group of people here with a passion of the things we love. I do hope these qualities are also enjoyed in other aspects in all your lives than gaming alone.

Quite an insightful post. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I think many of us have grown considerably over the past five years.

I am not as confident as you are that Dixie Kong is "inevitable" to be included in Smash down the line (just look at Toad), and I am not sure whether the next Smash will further build off of Ultimate. I do think though her time to be added is most likely after Ultimate, and after many of us have already moved on from the Smash community. Though like I said earlier, I am hoping that somehow she does make Ultimate's roster in the end, even though I know how much of a longshot it is.

Sakurai has said "everyone is here" is likely a one time thing, and that it took many special things to occur to make it possible.

I'm so used to seeing people throw around the reboot idea or a future Smash just rebuilding from the ground-up (which to be fair was brought up before Ultimate too), that I've just gotten in the habit of expecting the worst possible scenarios just in case. Logically though, I agree that the future Smashes will more likely use Ultimate as the building blocks whether Sakurai is still directing or not, still reusing assets like the series always has and bringing back as many characters and things as possible. Ultimate's been the most successful Smash yet, so why not? Reboots only usually happen when a series is facing major decline, and even without a reboot, you can still redesign the legacy characters to some extent, like what was done with Link.

I do not share this optimism. I do not think the next title will be necessarily a reboot, but I see it jettisoning close to half of Ultimate's roster. It's base game will probably be around the size of Smash 4's base roster.

There is still plenty of room for the Smash franchise to grow in other ways. There is a lot that seem to want another Adventure Mode in the style of Subspace Emissary, and that takes significant development resources.

Ultimate pretty much showed the limits to putting most of the focus on character and stage count. It did not add much in the way of new single player and multiplayer modes. People seem to think that development resources are infinite.

Personally, I was extremely happy with the way Ultimate was, but I can understand why others were not happy with aspects of it.

It is possible that future Smash titles are simply Ultimate but with additional content, but I think Sakurai might be looking at Ultimate as a sort of sendoff to the present style of "bigger and better" that has been building for the past 20+ years. Sakurai is a thoughtful and introspective game designer, and I am sure he has various ideas on what to do to keep Smash fresh and exciting.

Model Swap Fighters absolutely can be removed, but only some. Jigglypuff wouldn't be, but ones like Dr. Mario could bite the dust again(though as of now, probably not). It also depends pretty much who the base is. An Echo will definitely leave if its base is gone. Chrom isn't in a good position, but Roy probably is, which fixes that issue as is. Robin is the only on of the Awakening Trio who is in a good position entirely.

Coming from probably the biggest Roy supporter on this site, I would say Roy is in a more precarious situation going forward than Chrom. Chrom is the main lord to the game that made Fire Emblem massively popular in the Western world and that title is still massively sourced for spinoffs such as Fire Emblem Warriors . Roy is among the most popular characters to the Fire Emblem brand, but his title is is nearly 20 years old and still Japan-only (the only other character on Ultimate's 80+ roster that has this distinction is Mother 3's Lucas).

Robin is ironically the least popular of the three main protagonists to Awakening. Lucina is the most popular despite being the least different in terms of moveset (Chrom is actually the second most unique echo, behind only Ken). Lucina, Ike, and Roy are all extremely popular. Marth and Chrom are basically important parts to the brand (and have a lot of popularity themselves). Its only the avatar characters (Robin, Corrin, Byleth) that seem to have less of a following ironically despite being by far the most unique of Fire Emblem's playable Smash characters.

I see little reason to discard the echoes personally. They can easily be sourced from their original fighters, and most of them do not require additional balance efforts (the only echoes that play differently from their originals are Ken, Chrom, and Lucina).

Reducing the roster of the next Smash to a Brawl sized roster of 35 characters isn't going to go well. You can't cut 60+ characters and expect people to be fine with it. Smash sells based on the roster.

I highly doubt in a reboot situation the roster would end up around that size. It would probably be around the size of Smash 4's base roster honestly.

...How is having a big roster an inferior game again?

No, your previous messages still don't make for a good point to me.

A reboot is not going to help. Ultimate has the biggest roster and still the most balance to date. Even some cuts but still a big roster won't change anything related to having enough time for single player modes. It having a big roster isn't the problem with single player. It's that the modes couldn't really get more interesting anymore. Target Tests legitimately had no way to evolve as is by this point. Smash Run was 3DS-specific and wouldn't flow well anyway. There's way too many characters after Brawl's 39 to justify a normal All-Star Mode like before(requiring it to be Multi Man style), and they simply ran out of time as is for HRC, which came back anyway with no issues.

Brawl already showed having 30+ characters makes the Classic Target Test impossible as is. It's not SSE. They would have to make them based upon the particular character. Generic was actually required to have any kind of balance, and it still sucked. The Angry Birds version sucked slightly less since you could easily get Trophies and Customs, but it wasn't that great either. You could add them to Stage Creator, but... that's it. Race to the Finish was already back and actually quite well made. Nice, simple, workable. Board the Platforms is the same issue as Target Test and was only partially there in Melee by essentially making RTTF similar in how the big stage is designed. But that's cause RTTF is Platforming, not a wade through enemies thing, so it made sense.

There's not that much they can do anyway. A lot of these mini-games were being slowly removed because they couldn't have a better impact. Target Test actively got worse since Brawl by design(again, Angry Birds is kind of better, but only due to having better rewards. It still wasn't good by any means). They can't churn out old modes over and over either. They need to have quality to them. As eh as the generic stuff is, they still have quality to them. Removing the ability to get Trophies easily in Brawl was the biggest issue it had, though. Like, two Target Tests were bad, but no Grab The Trophies was fairly annoying. It's more RNG pools to make, but... a much better idea. They focused too much on Stickers. Ultimate fixed this by combining Stickers, Customs, and Trophies all in one.

I do agree with your assessment on how certain single player modes (Target Test in particular) declined as the series moved along. In Smash 64 and Melee, you had stages that revolved around each character's unique abilities, while in Brawl it was simply five stages for the whole roster.

I do think Sakurai has thought about this. I think the next Smash will probably put its focus into new game modes and minigames for the roster, as well as an expansive single player that is akin to Subspace Emissary.

People seem to think a reboot would be going from a 80+ roster to one with less than half the size of that. I think Sakurai is going to have to make some difficult decisions going forward assuming he will return as director for the next title.

It is inferior not for roster size- no matter what, there will have to be many cuts, if for no other reason than that many of the third party characters would not be able to come back (almost definitely). Unless they can keep the same roster and continue adding (again, unlikely), then the next game will not be able to have a lot of the current characters.

So... it would have to cut a significant number of characters. You can argue that deleting 15 and adding a new 15 would be a game on par, but on par is still less than if it is a sequel in this scenario. I do ask- what exactly do you see happening by removing a chunk, just to add a new chunk? How is this not inferior, unless the preference is just to have those characters which appeal to you?

A reboot isn't "restarting from the beginning and making it the same." A reboot is "reimagining the series and, while taking what worked in the inital, building upon it with new eyes, to fit the greater purpose.
Reading reboot does not mean simply cutting the characters back to a small number- it means completely reworking the old characters, and likely adding many new elements to how the game plays. Even if the game can have 50 or 70 characters, it is less than Ultimate, but still too much to be adding bulk to what exists.

The only scenario I can think, to which you are describing, is just to keep adding on to what already exists. That or a reboot are the only viable options that I can see for a sequel (and if you have another, which I have yet to read, please open up my mind to the idea).
Yet, just having all we have now, then adding more, doesn't seem like an option for the next game- if merely because of licensing, since we currently have almost 20 characters (a quarter of the roster, many of which are draws for new fans) is an illogical move. Is this what you dispute?

You brought up quantity- and I agree. The next game will likely improve the quality of gameplay, significantly. When I say this, I do not mean balance- I mean more to the table, both in characters, and IMO, a solid story mode (which was a huge draw in the past, but not done to most fans satisfaction).
The quantity of the roster is unlikely to be matched, but even if it is, will likely take just as many cuts as additions that it makes.

To everyone who feels that the reboot is unlikely- what exactly, very specifically, do you see happening to the roster? When I asked this before, it may have sounded too targeted to a single individual.

I think what you outlined is likely the direction for the next Smash title to take. It would likely speak for those who did not like Ultimate's direction. For me personally, the direction Ultimate took is what I wanted. However, I can understand why some others want a "reboot".

Realistically I think the only way to re-incorporate more classic single player content with a roster this large is to have a user generated infrastructure to effectively make it. Players creating their own break the targets, board the platforms, spirit battles, and so on could provide a ton of content if the system is in place to allow it. That approach in general could be way to really differentiate a next Smash, especially if they allowed for more customization with Mii character appearances/movesets as well as stage maker to more or less advertise the next SSB as one being made for and by the fanbase.

That is actually a pretty inventive solution. I do think its something that could work.

All the single player modes were reduced, world of light is just glorified spirit battles with a board. They're never going to focus on single player again.

Either way the only roster cuts I could see is some echoes and maybe if some third party licensing falls through, but even then I don't see them cutting tons of characters for no reason. Dixie has a chance as long as the roster is never reduced to 30ish characters.

Never say never. I can very easily see the direction to the next Smash title being a focus on single player considering how much of Ultimate's focus was basically the "essentials" (characters and stages).

Because your vision sounds half assed, to be perfectly frank.
I called it inferior and your claim is 'no.' Okay, so then, what roster? Show me what you would consider both realistic and even on par, much less superior. If people want a game for roster, Ultimate is the go to game. It can be resold continually, as well. We can still buy Street Fighter 2.

I do accept that Smash sells on the roster, in many ways- which is why anything will be inferior to the one we have now. You tell me you cannot see a reboot, yet cannot claim what it is that you do see.

Anyway, this is pointless, because there isn't a complete argument opposing the reboot statement, just vague ideas that don't have cohesion.

You got aggressive in your tone with no need for it. Ridley Prime simply thought the roster size taking a cut would reduce its appeal for a large portion of the audience. Personally, I disagree with that. I think people will be more drawn to what is added at the time as opposed to what is taken out. It could be the inverse situation with the next title where most of the newcomers are those added with the base game, while the DLC is half newcomers and half veterans (like was the case with Smash 4).

I think many of the people who want a different direction for Smash are people whose first title was Brawl, and want a title that follows its direction. Namely a large number of side modes, and a major single player adventure mode with a story, platforming, and character interaction. This is a significant contingent considering that up until Ultimate, Brawl was the highest selling Smash title.

Personally, the wars behind "which characters should be cut" are something I am not looking forward to, and are simply one of many reasons why I have little interest in being involved in the character support and speculation scene for the next Smash title. I can only imagine how toxic that will be. I was at the forefront of the Roy fanbase, and things were really toxic and hostile towards us Roy supporters when there were a lot less characters on the chopping block. I can only imagine how much worse it will get when at least 30 characters are looking at being cut.

No Smash has ever been resold or been available on another platform (not on virtual console, nada), and I don't think that'll change with Ultimate. Nintendo doesn't want any previous games like Melee which still has a scene for example, to take away from the sales of the current and future Smash titles.

Smash 64 was made available for the Wii Virtual Console. However, it was among four games that was available for the Nintendo 64 portion to the Wii Virtual Console that did not return for the Nintendo 64 portion to the Wii U Virtual Console (the other three were Pokemon Puzzle League, Bomberman Hero, and Cruis'n USA). Pretty weird in hindsight.

Hey everyone, I find the recent discussion about Smash's future contentious but not particularly hostile. So, I don't mind it if it keeps going. If it gets hostile then it'll be best to let it die down.

Personally, I did not like the discussion about Ultimate+ versus Smash Reboot, and just found it to be going in circles. I am glad that you finally stepped in so that the topic largely moved on from it.

The 3rd parties I get, and I can live without them much as I like some, but I see no reason for most of the 1st parties to not remain at least. Maybe shave off some of the series that have a lot more characters than the rest like FE or Pokemon (the clones specifically so it's less redundant, though clones/echoes don't take that much resources either, so hence the maybe), but other than that, it's fine as is. Again too, the less cuts there are, the less Dixie has to compete with for a future or DLC spot. Make no mistake, fans of cut characters will be pushing to have them back, and support for them will in turn compete with Dixie support. Really depends on whose all cut though, as some would have more a push in support to have back than others.

Trophies I don't really miss still. They became worse and worse each game, especially by Smash 4 when unlocking most of them just became an RNGfest. If they ever come back then cool, but they're not a dealbreaker imo. As for side modes, break the targets I would only want back if it was somehow the original version and not the Angry Birds one. I would take another Melee style adventure mode that's replayable and gives you an incentive to go through with each character over one that you mainly just go through once like SSE or WoL. A spiritual successor to Smash Run would be fine too.

Already made my defenses of World of Light earlier, but the hate for it is overrated. I like a lot of what it offered. People act as though it has no redeeming factors whatsoever, while remembering Subspace just for the cutscenes and not the generic worlds and enemies it was composed of. Ultimate single player I admit isn't the best, but the worst? That would still have to go to Smash 4 Wii U if you ask me. Virtually no one liked Smash Tour.

Thinking about it more... Only Melee and to some extent Smash 3DS's single players kept my attention for that long. Once I went through SSE I had no desire to replay it, and Brawl's event matches were inferior to Melee's, both in number and in being memorable. Otherwise I'd just play Smash with friends or people online. I can understand if you have no one locally to play with or don't want to play online, and thus when a Smash doesn't have that much in single player, you don't have a desire to go back to it that often no matter the roster. I haven't had that problem though, still playing Ultimate three years later which won't stop anytime soon.

I agree with much of this post.

In regards to trophies, it was only Melee where I really liked and appreciated the trophies. It was actually the first time a lot of Nintendo characters had a 3D model. By the time Brawl was released, the novelty had worn off. I think the one thing that trophies were good for though was helping familiarize side characters from various game franchises for a mass audience. Though, perhaps that is an obsolete feature in the age of mass internet usage.

I also really enjoyed Melee's Adventure Mode too. It was really fun, and had small stages tying things in with the various game franchises in Melee. A sidescrolling platforming stage for Mario. An exploration stage for Zelda. An escape sequence for Metroid. A race to the finish for F-Zero. It was nice for what it was.

I would also say I really enjoyed World of Light as well. It was very well made for something to which was made with very limited time and development resources. I liked all the various puzzles in it and various call outs to various franchises (the Castlevania section was a high point for me). There were also small things that meant a lot to me like piloting Pico's F-Zero machine (the Wild Goose) in the F-Zero section.

I might someday make a detailed review and assessment of World of Light. I can make no promise of actually doing it though.

As for Smash Run, that was easily the highlight of Smash 4 3DS for me. It was a very fun and replayable mode. I liked how so many classic game enemies were included in it, and how it was both replayable and could be played in short bursts. Smash Run is the one thing that helped make Smash 4 a title I would like to revisit despite Ultimate basically taking most of Smash 4 3DS/Wii U's content.

As for Subspace Emissary, I was not keen on it. I share many of the criticisms you have with it. It was basically a sub-par Kirby title in terms of gameplay, and the the enemy designs were off-putting to say the least. Its really peculiar how much praise this mode now has gotten over the past five years. I think a lot of it can basically be assigned to nostalgia because I noticed a common thread that many who praise the mode also mention Brawl was their first Smash title or that they played it at a very young age (a similar phenomenon could also be seen on how opinions for various 3D Sonic titles gradually shifted from negative to positive as those who grew up playing those titles as children gradually became the new core for game discussion).

I think eventually this newfound praise for Subspace Emissary will eventually be re-evaluated if or when in the next Smash title a new Adventure Mode is made in the style of the Subspace Emissary (an Adventure Mode with many platforming stages and exploration, and many different cutscenes with the roster's various characters interacting with one another) is made for it. Only when there is a new Adventure Mode that is made in the style of "SSE but better" I think some of the rose-tint will wear off on SSE and the people whom are very fond of SSE will start to see what its shortcomings were.

In general, I think it is very unfair that World of Light is constantly compared to Subspace Emissary. Their only similarities are they are both massive Adventure Modes and they share a boss (Galleom). Aside from that they both have wildly different approaches to gameplay and story. Personally, I think World of Light is very underrated and I actually had a lot of fun going through it. For Subspace, I just remember thinking to myself how generic all the environments were and how much of a waste it was how barely anything from Nintendo's various franchises was referenced in it. Brawl's fighting engine also did it no favors. Someday I might make a detailed review and assessment on the Subspace Emissary as well, but again I cannot promise I will actually follow through on it.

I would also agree that Brawl's event matches being inferior to Melee's. I actually vividly remember thinking about that as I was playing through them back in 2008. I would need to play through both back to back to really get into detail about why, but from what I remember, I thought there was overall less unique scenarios in Brawl's event matches compared to Melee's. Melee's event matches even had a few ones where you fought on stages not found anywhere else in the game (the stages based off the trophies of Goomba, Entei, and Majora's Mask).

I'm of the opinion that a reboot wouldn't bode well Dixie. A reboot means rework on all movesets, also Diddy, and Dixie's best bet is being a semi clone of Diddy of sorts. So the less they need to work on reworking Diddy, the better for Dixie. At least that's my take on it.

Actually, if many of the veterans were redesigned in a hypothetical reboot, that actually would go well for Dixie Kong considering Sakurai's concept for her in Smash was as part of a tag team with Diddy Kong. I imagine if Diddy Kong's moveset was completely revamped (which is plausible considering how unpopular Diddy Kong seems to be in Smash according to various polls), I could very much see Sakurai re-attempting the tag team concept he originally envisioned for Diddy.

So ironically, a "reboot" would probably work in Dixie's favor especially if it involved redesigning much of the veteran cast.

Random thought, but nobody suggests a Dixie-Funky tagteam lol. I'm just spitballing right now and I've put almost no thought into it, but I'm trying to expect any curve balls we might get. Dixie's been paired with DK, Diddy, Kiddy and Funky each for only one adventure each, so on paper any of them are equal candidates with Diddy being the exception. He's usually paired with DK in the series and in spinoffs. Obviously I prefer Dixie to be solo and unique but I don't mind entertaining the idea lol.


Thanks for showing your support! I'll add you to the list in a few hours.

I was actually going to write about a tag team concept of Dixie Kong and Funky Kong a year ago but I never got around to it. Funky Kong is probably the next most popular "big Kong" after Donkey Kong himself, so I thought that concept might work better for a tag team than Dixie and Kiddy considering that Kiddy has a mixed reception and that he has not been used in a game since 1997 (Donkey Kong Land 3).

Funky Kong is a very popular character himself. He managed to make the roster for Mario Kart Wii and has his own dedicated mode in the Switch port to Tropical Freeze. I do think if Dixie has to be in a tag team concept that being paired with Funky Kong would be the best choice.

My favorite idea for a sort of tag team for Dixie Kong though is one where she utilizes the animal buddies. It is not technically a tag team, but to me the animal buddies were a big part of the appeal to the DKC trilogy, especially 2 and 3. Rattly, Squitter, Rambi, Ellie, Squawks, and Enguarde all were very memorable characters from the DKC trilogy to me and it is a shame that only Rambi ever managed to be utilized in Retro's games (Squawks was only used as an item). My hope is that a lot more of the animal buddies come back for the next major DK title.

In general, Dixie Kong has many different ways she could be implemented as a playable character. From a Ken-style echo or semi-clone, to a fully unique fighter, and even as a fully unique fighter there are many different ways to interpret her. Even the tag team concept has different possibilities.

Well, Kamek was originally to be in Mario Kart 64 before being replaced by Wario.
And never have we seen Kamek playable in any game at all.

I miss DK jr.

I find it peculiar that Kamek has yet to make his way onto the roster of Mario Kart considering how he almost made the roster for 64.

As for Donkey Kong Jr., he actually came back (as a sprite based racer) in Mario Kart Tour, but it is still not a wholly new appearance for him. His last fully new appearance was as an unlockable character in Mario Tennis for the Nintendo 64, which was all the way back in 2000. Aside from that he also made appearances in various modern versions to some of the games in Game & Watch Gallery 4, released in 2002.

I find it interesting that Donkey Kong Jr. pretty much stopped having new game appearances after the Rare buyout and Diddy Kong being included into the Mario spinoffs. It is even more peculiar given that baby versions of various Mario characters (Mario, Luigi, Peach, Daisy, Rosalina) are often included on the rosters to Mario Kart titles alongside their adult selves, so the theory Donkey Kong Jr. cannot be there alongside modern Donkey Kong does not work.

Donkey Kong Jr. is one of Nintendo's oldest characters, predating almost every major Nintendo character with the exception of Mario and Donkey Kong themselves. That he has basically disappeared almost entirely is really peculiar.

I do think the character will eventually be brought back though in some capacity.

Mario Kart Tour is actually pretty good when you get past the latent exploitative gambling system that most philosophical traditions would look down upon.

And they did a good job on Dixie's personality there. Although Dixie's voice...try not to play as Dixie near any fragile mirrors or vases.

I think Dixie's voice is cute, but I can understand why some might have issues with it. That brings another question. If Dixie Kong was in Smash, what voice effects would they use for her? They use animal sounds for DK, Diddy, and K. Rool. Would they simply pitch Diddy's voice effects higher?

So, as far as Nintendo All Stars go, we have 4-5 left in my eyes.

• Meowth
• Eevee
• Captain Toad
• Tom Nook (the debatable one)
• Dixie Kong

Of these, we have two Pokeballs, a moveset, and a Final Smash.
I don't understand why Dixie is nowhere, if she isn't intended to be made at some point.

I think there are quite a few characters left that could be called "Nintendo All Stars", but in terms of "legacy" or "classic" (characters that were very prominent characters prior to 2000), the only one left aside from Dixie Kong I think is Toad. Toad already was the main protagonist to a Mario spinoff in 1994 through Wario's Woods.

After 1999, there are a few characters that have a lot of recognition that are still not part of the roster. There is Tom Nook, Paper Mario, Waluigi, and Bandana Waddle Dee.

There are also quite a few "rising stars" that could become Nintendo icons given time (or arguably are already Nintendo icons). Toadette, Octoling, and Ring Fit Adventurer come to mind. The latter two I likely see eventually joining Smash's roster. Heck, if there were DLC echoes for Ultimate, I could have seen Octoling added (Octoling is also among two candidates I see as a bonus fighter as well).

For Zelda, you could argue Ganon and Impa. However, with the former, he has widely divergent designs. The last game appearance for the blue pig demon incarnation to Ganon was 2013's A Link Between Worlds to which he was just a mindless puppet that ended up being possessed. The last game to which the blue big demon incarnation of Ganon was actually in control of things was 2004's Four Swords Adventures. There is also the fact that Ganon (or at least an incarnation of him) is already utilized as both a boss and Final Smash.

Impa seems to be just on the cusp of being the next biggest reoccurring Zelda character outside of the Triforce trio (Link, Zelda, Ganondorf), but her warrior/ninja incarnation needs to show up more consistently. It is a shame DLC echoes were never a thing for Ultimate as Skyward Sword Impa as a Sheik echo would have been a good advertisement for Skyward Sword HD.

There are also a lot of one-shot Zelda characters with massive cult followings such as Skull Kid with Majora's Mask and Midna.

As for Pokemon to be given this distinction, I feel there are many Pokemon from generation 1 (Red/Blue/Yellow/Green) that have mass recognition and popularity. Meowth, Eeevee, Charmander, Bulbasaur, Blastoise, Venusaur, and Mew are the biggest ones that come to mind though.

In terms of "classic" or "legacy" Nintendo "all-stars", its pretty much just Dixie Kong and Toad. Those are the two whose absence from a 80+ roster seem the most peculiar. At least with Toad though Sakurai tried to incorporate him in a more combative role in Peach's (and Daisy's) moveset and has a full Mii costume.

I made the distinction of prior to 2000 considering that the first Smash Bros. released in 1999. It is still incredible to me how the roster started with 12 characters now has grown to over seven times that amount. It is truly incredible.

Interestingly, whenever people talk about what Zelda characters to add to Smash, they always seem to overlook a particular character. One who appears across many Zelda games, maintains a fairly consistent design, is well-known, and even had their own game.

And frankly, I would not put it past Smash to add Tingle as a playable character at some point.

Tingle has not been in a typical Zelda title since the Minish Cap which was released in late 2004 to early 2005. For Tingle's own line of games, it stopped after 2009. Tingle has made cameos in titles such as Phantom Hourglass (wanted posted), Spirit Tracks (figurine), Skyward Sword (doll), as well as his outfit being available for use in Tri Force Heroes and Breath of the Wild, but the last Zelda title he existed as a character that could be interacted with was Minish Cap.

He is naturally a playable character in the Hyrule Warriors line of games though (except Age of Calamity which only focuses on characters that were a part of Breath of the Wild).

Tingle is a strange case as he was very much a major player in the Zelda series during the 2000's, and was even on track to becoming its Wario of sorts with his own spinoff series. However, at this point, he only exists as small cameos. I do think it is possible that he will show up in Breath of the Wild 2 though.

The problem with Zelda I guess (at least from what I've observed) is there being a number of good options but not one particular character most agree should get in, while with DK you just have Dixie now and maybe Cranky as an alternative.

I would say that Funky Kong also has a notable amount of requests, usually as an echo fighter though. In general Dixie Kong is not necessarily the next in line for the DK series like many think she is. Both Funky Kong and Cranky Kong have been steadily growing in requests over the past several years. Dixie Kong is primarily helped by her legacy as being a main protagonist in two out of three titles in the DKC trilogy, but the older those games get, the less that distinction will matter. Just look at Toad at how seniority and a playable role in early major titles mean little for playable Smash consideration.

That concludes my series of responses. This is easily the most lengthy post I have written thus far this year. Tomorrow, we will get additional Mii costumes unveiled, the penultimate wave of Mii costumes. It is still surreal to think there is only a single character left to be unveiled for Ultimate, and that we are essentially in the twilight for Ultimate speculation in general.

I cannot see how Dixie Kong could possibly be the final unveil for Ultimate. However, even still, we should still see this out to the end even if her chances are possibly only 1% at this point.

Aside from the DK essay I would like to put out, the only other thing I think I am going to contribute to this thread during the second half of this year is a revised version of my Dixie Kong essay I put out in 2019.

In general, I expect only write six more posts at most for the remainder of this speculation period. I have a strong inkling the final newcomer will be a character from Shin Megami Tensei. I do not think there is really anything else needed in regards to my input or speculation for these last remaining months. There will not be any developments that impact or affect Dixie Kong's prospects for Ultimate (or a future Smash title) during the second half of this year.

The heated discussion about the direction that Smash should take after Ultimate reminded me about why I am glad to not participate in contentious discussions anymore. In general, I am glad this thread is free from that sort of thing usually, with the only topic that got a lot of contentious debate was whether Dixie Kong can and/or should be an echo fighter.

My main hope going forward is seeing how the modding scene develops for Ultimate. As mentioned, there will be four empty spots on the character select screen after Ultimate's DLC ends. That might potentially mean there could be four additional characters that players can choose to mod in without having to paste over an existing slot.

However, I imagine it would take a long time for that.

In 24 hours we will get Kazuya's presentation, and the penultimate wave of Mii costumes. I hope that the Mii costumes that end up being revealed bring some happiness to some of the people in this thread.

The first half of 2021 is drawing to a close now. There is now only a single fighter left to be unveiled, and the rumored DK title is still nothing more than rumors.

We shall see what the second half of this year will bring to Dixie Kong. Personally, I am not expecting any new developments pertaining to her or the DK franchise in general, but we shall see.

Thank you to all of those who took time out to read this lengthy response. I have not done a response this lengthy in at least six months, so I understand if many choose not to read through the entirety of it.

This image is still apt to describe what lies ahead:

Let us hope for the best despite all odds.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Spoiler

Yeah, that makes zero sense to me. Echoes hard depend upon a specific character. That's the point. Popularity is not going to keep Chrom on the roster if Roy is gone. The whole point is to mirror Roy and only Roy. They aren't "regular" model swaps in any way. They're special kinds that specifically share the same weight, attributes, and the model is only modified(with barely a pixel or two of difference at most, as seen with Lucina). I don't see Roy going with Chrom staying anymore than I see Dark Samus staying with Samus going. There's zero tangible difference to me. There's popular enough Echoes, but they're specially programmed to only follow a very particular character. They also were given extremely specific numbers to make that clear, and don't get their own numbers either.

I never saw popularity as the be-end all. Albeit, it doesn't help that Chrom is the only Echo in a bad position, but that's going to happen when the only base he'll realistically use is not in a good position. None of the other bases will ever leave at this time, so. Well, maybe Ryu or Simon might not be a permanent thing, but among the first parties, only Roy(with Chrom) are the ones in any remote danger.

You don't just try to mirror another character. That doesn't work. It massively changes the playstyle to a point it would no longer be the character. There's enough problems with how Link changed alone, alienating some players. Chrom is highly dependent upon his particular animations and lack of a sweetspot on his sword. That stops working if he mirrors Marth, since Lucina already does that, and that's the only character he's close enough to. He's based upon Roy because Ike only really shares a similar Up B otherwise. He's a cross between Marth and Ike too, which is... just what Roy is by design. The only thing they can do is make him a non-Echo, which means an entirely new number and organization. That's more tedious than it's worth. Chrom doesn't actually take much to create, as long as the base is there. He certainly is the one of the more difficult ones to make due to new animations, but those were done already and it's pretty easy to transfer them over.

That said, I could be wrong. I just don't see it realistic at all. Just like I don't see any model swap ever replacing their counterpart. Even semi-clones. Keep in mind the reason the model swap fighters still have similar moves is because they're still using the base character to help test and program. It was noted it was still done in general. So overall, the evidence is clear to me; Chrom 100% depends upon Roy. Thankfully Roy I don't think has a very good chance to leaving either. He's rather popular enough to keep him there. HIs renewed design helped a lot in making more fans. And added a fun Echo of another popular character. It'd suck if we lost them, but that can happen. Though frankly I only see Marth, Ike, and Robin being absolutely for sure. They all represent a core era. Lucina naturally won't be removed cause Marth's there. That leaves a semi-clone who has no consistency in being kept, his echo that's tied to the hip, and two characters who were added due to games releasing and DLC. Corrin arguably had worse reactions than Byleth, who is decently popular. But if they downsize to 4 or 5, Marth, Lucina, Ike, and Robin pretty much have their spots, with the one left possibly being Byleth or Corrin for their unique features. Corrin using Ike as the original base does help, but that's not always the whole story.

That said, we don't have too long for the final reveal. Here's hoping for Dixie.

...I actually never saw Dixie + Funky suggested till now. The only combo character suggestion I ever directly heard was with Kiddy, the one she's actually tied to besides Diddy. Funky teaming up with Dixie is honestly not much different from Cranky teaming up with Dixie as is. Both have references to the game, but not completely accurate as a concept. I don't think either have a real chance of happening. While I do think a team up with Kiddy is the most likely, her being solo is still realistic if Sakurai drops the mindset of keeping his old plans for her. It's not like they're needed.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Art by Krazy.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[Ridley_Prime]

I do not share this optimism. I do not think the next title will be necessarily a reboot, but I see it jettisoning close to half of Ultimate's roster. It's base game will probably be around the size of Smash 4's base roster.

There is still plenty of room for the Smash franchise to grow in other ways. There is a lot that seem to want another Adventure Mode in the style of Subspace Emissary, and that takes significant development resources.

Ultimate pretty much showed the limits to putting most of the focus on character and stage count. It did not add much in the way of new single player and multiplayer modes. People seem to think that development resources are infinite.

Personally, I was extremely happy with the way Ultimate was, but I can understand why others were not happy with aspects of it.

It is possible that future Smash titles are simply Ultimate but with additional content, but I think Sakurai might be looking at Ultimate as a sort of sendoff to the present style of "bigger and better" that has been building for the past 20+ years. Sakurai is a thoughtful and introspective game designer, and I am sure he has various ideas on what to do to keep Smash fresh and exciting.

A Smash 4 sized roster would be acceptable, and the closest thing to what I could expect or hope for realistically. If it was a Brawl sized roster or smaller though, then you might lose me, but depends in part on whose all cut too.

I understand that appeal for Subspace fans, but as previously expressed I was never really one of them. Marvel vs Capcom Infinite had a big story mode too, but fans did not see it or its resources worth losing the amount of characters it did over, and the game failed because of that in part. Another Smash Run or Melee type adventure that gives you incentive to play through with everyone would be great though, and takes less resources than something as ambitious as SSE. Sakurai knows too that a mode like that would just get leaked on youtube again, and more and more over time you can see why he was upset when that happened with Brawl and thusly why he didn't want to a mode like that again. Maybe he will reevaluate the nostalgic praise for it though, who knows.

I trust Sakurai on whatever he does going forward with Smash regardless, though even without a "bigger and better" approach, I think Ultimate's assets will likely be used for bringing back a good chunk of its characters. Without a roster as big as Ultimate, there will be plenty room to keep things fresh otherwise either way.

Ridley Prime simply thought the roster size taking a cut would reduce its appeal for a large portion of the audience. Personally, I disagree with that. I think people will be more drawn to what is added at the time as opposed to what is taken out.

I'll let the sales of the next Smash game speak for itself, but I don't see it passing Ultimate's 22+ million no matter what they do. Maybe it will though. Could be wrong, but I'm of the belief that Smash sells on its roster most of all.

I agree with much of this post.

In regards to trophies, it was only Melee where I really liked and appreciated the trophies. It was actually the first time a lot of Nintendo characters had a 3D model. By the time Brawl was released, the novelty had worn off. I think the one thing that trophies were good for though was helping familiarize side characters from various game franchises for a mass audience. Though, perhaps that is an obsolete feature in the age of mass internet usage.

I also really enjoyed Melee's Adventure Mode too. It was really fun, and had small stages tying things in with the various game franchises in Melee. A sidescrolling platforming stage for Mario. An exploration stage for Zelda. An escape sequence for Metroid. A race to the finish for F-Zero. It was nice for what it was.

I would also say I really enjoyed World of Light as well. It was very well made for something to which was made with very limited time and development resources. I liked all the various puzzles in it and various call outs to various franchises (the Castlevania section was a high point for me). There were also small things that meant a lot to me like piloting Pico's F-Zero machine (the Wild Goose) in the F-Zero section.

I might someday make a detailed review and assessment of World of Light. I can make no promise of actually doing it though.

As for Smash Run, that was easily the highlight of Smash 4 3DS for me. It was a very fun and replayable mode. I liked how so many classic game enemies were included in it, and how it was both replayable and could be played in short bursts. Smash Run is the one thing that helped make Smash 4 a title I would like to revisit despite Ultimate basically taking most of Smash 4 3DS/Wii U's content.

As for Subspace Emissary, I was not keen on it. I share many of the criticisms you have with it. It was basically a sub-par Kirby title in terms of gameplay, and the the enemy designs were off-putting to say the least. Its really peculiar how much praise this mode now has gotten over the past five years. I think a lot of it can basically be assigned to nostalgia because I noticed a common thread that many who praise the mode also mention Brawl was their first Smash title or that they played it at a very young age (a similar phenomenon could also be seen on how opinions for various 3D Sonic titles gradually shifted from negative to positive as those who grew up playing those titles as children gradually became the new core for game discussion).

I think eventually this newfound praise for Subspace Emissary will eventually be re-evaluated if or when in the next Smash title a new Adventure Mode is made in the style of the Subspace Emissary (an Adventure Mode with many platforming stages and exploration, and many different cutscenes with the roster's various characters interacting with one another) is made for it. Only when there is a new Adventure Mode that is made in the style of "SSE but better" I think some of the rose-tint will wear off on SSE and the people whom are very fond of SSE will start to see what its shortcomings were.

In general, I think it is very unfair that World of Light is constantly compared to Subspace Emissary. Their only similarities are they are both massive Adventure Modes and they share a boss (Galleom). Aside from that they both have wildly different approaches to gameplay and story. Personally, I think World of Light is very underrated and I actually had a lot of fun going through it. For Subspace, I just remember thinking to myself how generic all the environments were and how much of a waste it was how barely anything from Nintendo's various franchises was referenced in it. Brawl's fighting engine also did it no favors. Someday I might make a detailed review and assessment on the Subspace Emissary as well, but again I cannot promise I will actually follow through on it.

I would also agree that Brawl's event matches being inferior to Melee's. I actually vividly remember thinking about that as I was playing through them back in 2008. I would need to play through both back to back to really get into detail about why, but from what I remember, I thought there was overall less unique scenarios in Brawl's event matches compared to Melee's. Melee's event matches even had a few ones where you fought on stages not found anywhere else in the game (the stages based off the trophies of Goomba, Entei, and Majora's Mask).

Yeah, World of Light's maps have plenty cultural landmarks/callbacks. Dracula's Castle, Street Fighter's world map, the first world of DKC1, and so on. The bosses I would put above Subspace's as well. Giga Bowser, Ganon, Dracula, Rathalos, and Galeem & Dharkon were a good way of one-upping Tabuu as any.

Yep, and in hindsight, Melee's final event match with Giga Bowser, Mewtwo, and Ganondorf was too big and epic for any future game's events to ever top.

Actually, if many of the veterans were redesigned in a hypothetical reboot, that actually would go well for Dixie Kong considering Sakurai's concept for her in Smash was as part of a tag team with Diddy Kong. I imagine if Diddy Kong's moveset was completely revamped (which is plausible considering how unpopular Diddy Kong seems to be in Smash according to various polls), I could very much see Sakurai re-attempting the tag team concept he originally envisioned for Diddy.

So ironically, a "reboot" would probably work in Dixie's favor especially if it involved redesigning much of the veteran cast.

Honestly, the only main thing you would need to change with Diddy for a Dixie tag team to work is the banana peel. Even without it Diddy has good combo setups like with his down tilt. But yeah, just make switching to her his down special, maybe change some of his regular moves to rebalance him accordingly for a tag team, and you're good to go.

Other than that, I too am not looking forward to future discussions on how the future direction of Smash should be, who should be cut, etc, which most will not agree with each other on. I think at least the 1st party newcomers that got in either due to the ballot or promoting current Nintendo games will remain, because why cut characters they know were highly requested just before the last game and whom they'll always have the rights to? (K Rool, Ridley, Byleth, Min-Min, Pyra/Mythra). That said, if I see Ridley on anyone's cut list, we're probably mortal enemies, but I'll be avoiding all that speculation as much as possible.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Its funny but DK, Metroid, & Kirby probably have the least to worry about in terms of cuts because their presence in the roster isn't that large to begin with. Worse case scenario would be Dark Samus & maybe Zero Suit gone but few others. Its Fire Emblem and Pokemon that have likely have the most to lose if the roster's trimmed.

 

[zipzapsparkle]

I agree with ChronoBound seeing Metroid Dread announced was a pleasant but unexpected surprise, same for Advance Wars. I’m crossing my fingers that there’s a DK sequel in the works, hopefully announced soon.

 

[Phoenix Douchebag]

The fact that Nintendo is pulling from their deeper catalogue again is a good sign. We have gotten Kirby, Mario, Zelda, Pokémon, FE, soon we will get Metroid, etc. The only major Nintendo franchises i can think that have not gotten a New Game are Pikmin, Mario Kart and DK, who have gotten ports.

I think MK still has some time to wait, and Pikmin is a crapshoot so it may skip this gen. This leaves DK as the most profitable Ninetndo IP without a new game under its belt.

 

[zipzapsparkle]

This gen we’ve had some new ips but also announcements of older games reintroduced. Like Famicom detective club, Advance Wars, and of course Metroid getting sequels.

I think F-zero might be next for a remake/revival and DK getting a sequel. It’s really weird it’s taken really long though. Tropical freeze was well received.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

I think in some ways DK might fall under one of the biggest double edged swords of Nintendo; that they will often hold off releasing a title until a specific vision can be realized. That can lead to a lack of cheap sequels which, but can also create very long absences for franchises because the creators are so intent on either getting an idea exactly right or creating a new one freshen it up. Quite frankly that's the most logical explanation for why it took so long for another new entry in 2D Metroid to arrive; because unless they could do Dread they simply weren't interested in making it.

That philosophy (in combination with the reluctance to use characters other teams had created) would also provide context for how DK was handled in the aughts. Potentially Nintendo just couldn't think of an idea for 2D or 3D Country title worthwhile to them, hence why both the Konga and Jungle Beat concepts were explored and why Retro might have been eventually tapped to the more traditional platformer, being new blood that could bring fresh ideas on how to do another DKC release.

Its a contrast in how developers and fans often look at IP's as it could very well be that Nintendo saw such moves as preventing Donkey Kong from falling into safe and/or stale patterns while gamers simply grew discontent at the lack of new mainline entries. It was a situation made even more controversial as a lot fans also viewed the lack of the extended DKU characters showing up not as Nintendo showing deference to Rare's creations in not recycling them, but as the company willfully spiting the latter by ignoring them entirely. The nature of Jungle Beat's cast specifically feels like something entirely well intended by the development team but bound to be hit with backlash by fans whom interpreted new characters/baddies as unwanted replacements for the figures they'd grown to like.

 

[Baba]

I'm also rooting for Dixie, but I don't know how great her chances are. I know she deserves better than being an echo but I think her best shot is if they end up doing a bonus "echo pass" or something.

Give her her bubblegum pop gun and a recovery similar to DK and I think she'd be okay as a Diddy echo. Not ideal, but better than being excluded entirely.

 

[BirthNote]

Well it turns out I added QQS a while ago. Thanks for reaffirming your support!

ChronoBound thanks for acknowledging your predictions; it's refreshing to see people own up to things. I honestly didn't think it was a knock on your credibility. Your predictions seemed like educated guesses and I don't fault you for it. But hey, acknowledging it is a testament to your character.

As for the thread winding down, I'll find ways to help it end gracefully and gradually. That's about the best we can do as the speculation scene wraps up. It's definitely true that rumors and leaks have dominated the lifespan of Ultimate, as well as people mocking deconfirmed characters just to spite their fans. I didn't want this thread to go the same route; it's not over yet so I can't do a victory lap, but I can safely say we haven't for most of this thread. Most of the Ups and Downs of this bubble have been specific to Dixie, which bodes well for this fanbase. Hopefully, when these threads face being locked, everyone whose left walks away with fond memories, even if the situation is bittersweet

So, as far as Nintendo All Stars go, we have 4-5 left in my eyes.

• Meowth
• Eevee
• Captain Toad
• Tom Nook (the debatable one)
• Dixie Kong

Of these, we have two Pokeballs, a moveset, and a Final Smash.
I don't understand why Dixie is nowhere, if she isn't intended to be made at some point.

I like this list. Does anyone have more to add?

...I actually never saw Dixie + Funky suggested till now. The only combo character suggestion I ever directly heard was with Kiddy, the one she's actually tied to besides Diddy. Funky teaming up with Dixie is honestly not much different from Cranky teaming up with Dixie as is. Both have references to the game, but not completely accurate as a concept. I don't think either have a real chance of happening. While I do think a team up with Kiddy is the most likely, her being solo is still realistic if Sakurai drops the mindset of keeping his old plans for her. It's not like they're needed.

It mainly just popped up in my head because she can ride Funky's back in DKCTF as well as DK's back. They tend to be the... "better" Kongs and they returned after a hiatus in the same game, plus them showing up in Mario Kart Tour gives off the sense that they're a pair, but not on any groundbreaking level like say the Mario Bros or Banjo & Kazooie. Pairing Dixie and Funky can be a fun idea, but for me at least, it started from a lighthearted acknowledgement that these 2 are showing up together in recent games.

 

[Ridley_Prime]

Oh yeah, I bought into the Master Chief thing too at first during 11th hour before Kazuya, but no harm done. Mocking the unfortunate/deconfirmed has been a thing with every Smash speculation cycle (Brawl, Smash 4, etc), especially towards the end, but I know basically everyone here is above doing that crap.

I still prefer the Diddy and Dixie tag team with the ideas outlined, but a Dixie and Funky tag team I could work with too. Two additional newcomers for the price of one (sorry Kiddy, no one likes you enough for this).

 

[BirthNote]

Oh yeah that reminds me, Baba welcome to the Barrel! I've added you to the support list. As for moveset potential, I recommend the sets listed in the OP. There's tons of ideas by various users over the years, and I occasionally put up new ideas sporadically. Any one of the sets in the OP is a fun read/watch so feel free.

Oh yeah, I bought into the Master Chief thing too at first during 11th hour before Kazuya, but no harm done. Mocking the unfortunate/deconfirmed has been a thing with every Smash speculation cycle (Brawl, Smash 4, etc), especially towards the end, but I know basically everyone here is above doing that crap.

I still prefer the Diddy and Dixie tag team with the ideas outlined, but a Dixie and Funky tag team I could work with too. Two additional newcomers for the price of one (sorry Kiddy, no one likes you enough for this).

That's true, I know GameFAQs can be vicious about it but it happens on this site too. The main reason why I avoid doing that is because I'd cringe looking back at it, plus some people here may be fans of a character we're badmouthing, then lines get drawn in the sand, and a few steps later we're all imploding. That's a headache I don't need.

 

[pupNapoleon]

Honestly, the only main thing you would need to change with Diddy for a Dixie tag team to work is the banana peel. Even without it Diddy has good combo setups like with his down tilt. But yeah, just make switching to her his down special, maybe change some of his regular moves to rebalance him accordingly for a tag team, and you're good to go.

I'd prefer they pull an Inkling, and have the pair only able to switch from a shielded neutral B.

 

[BirthNote]

Kazuya hits like a truck. I liked the presentation, and I was surprised to see the Mii Costumes.

Whoever the final fighter is, it'll definitely be the last character to join Ultimate. We won't be getting a bonus character.

 

[Vector Victor]

Oh yeah that reminds me, Baba welcome to the Barrel! I've added you to the support list. As for moveset potential, I recommend the sets listed in the OP. There's tons of ideas by various users over the years, and I occasionally put up new ideas sporadically. Any one of the sets in the OP is a fun read/watch so feel free.

That's true, I know GameFAQs can be vicious about it but it happens on this site too. The main reason why I avoid doing that is because I'd cringe looking back at it, plus some people here may be fans of a character we're badmouthing, then lines get drawn in the sand, and a few steps later we're all imploding. That's a headache I don't need.

SmashFAQs is more invested in seeing people disappointed than actually playing the game.

 

[pupNapoleon]

Whoever the final fighter is, it'll definitely be the last character to join Ultimate. We won't be getting a bonus character.

And apparently- 90 figures into the amiibo, they decided to say f*** it, you bought them all for no reason, because we aren't making the entire roster.

 

[Gobliiin]

I know its very unlikely but I am still holding out that there's still a chance for Dixie.

 

[cybersai]

Well it'll likely be another 5+ years of waiting at this point. Maybe by 2025 we'll get Dixie in Smash....goddamn I'll be pushing 40 by then.

Yikes.