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If you didn't know, Banjo & Kazooie were highly requested characters during the Smash Ballot so that's probably why they're in. Even though Sakurai hasn't comment yet on them being in because of the Smash Ballot, he did say in a Fatmitsu interview that Banjo & Kazooie along with Ridley and K. Rool have been requested for years. So honestly, they're in because of the Smash Ballot.
Not only were Banjo-Kazooie up there in popularity with the likes of King K.Rool and Ridley, But most would agree that if it weren't for the 2002 Microsoft/Rareware buyout Banjo-Kazooie would have probably have been in Super Smash Bros Melee.
Banjo-Kazooie was an Nintendo/N64 icon during that era of gaming in the late 90's and early 2000's and was heavily pushed and promoted by Nintendo alongside elite company in Mario, Donkey Kong and Pikachu.
They were long lost 1st/2nd Party Nintendo characters that went away due to unfortunate legal and business circumstances, Many thought they would never really return to a Nintendo console again, Luckily for us Microsoft was nice enough to play ball with Nintendo and made the impossible a reality.
Banjo-Kazooie's Super Smash Bros debut was deserving and a longtime coming and even though they are a 3rd Party because their a Microsoft property now, They will always be associated with Nintendo because of their origins and legacy, They feel more like 1st/2nd Party Nintendo Character addition to the roster compared to other 3rd Party Newcomers and blend in nicely with the Nintendo cast.
And they had to do the project over because of lack of quality... Well, that's gonna take a while. I just can't believe that Nintendo has nothing else planned for the franchise.
And they had to do the project over because of lack of quality... Well, that's gonna take a while. I just can't believe that Nintendo has nothing else planned for the franchise.
Well there is the upcoming DKC theme park coming to Universal Studios in the near future. If anything at all, that's a great sign for this franchise especially for what's to come in the future.
Well there is the upcoming DKC theme park coming to Universal Studios in the near future. If anything at all, that's a great sign for this franchise especially for what's to come in the future.
Yeah, everyone keeps saying that, but am not convinced honestly. I mean, the jungle theme is quite a common theme in theme parks. Disney does it, and basically everyone else. Just seems like an easy pick for a theme for a theme park, because it copies something that's doing very well in other parks. I mean, a wooden rollercoaster is all but a given in this DKC area, as well as those water bumper rides. I'm not convinced that it's Nintendo giving extra attention to Donkey Kong as a gaming franchises, mostly that they are just playing safe.
Imagine if Dixie was in this trailer. She'd be at a direct 90 degree angle above Diddy and a 45 degree angle above DK, forming a perfect triangle punch against Rool.
Imagine if we got Dixie in this direct as an echo alongside Chrom and Dark Samus, they would have added her in the King K. Rool trailer too and this image would be even more epic!
Also she would be in the Banjo trailer too. That would have been just perfect oh well...
For me Dixie as an echo would be totally justified only if she would have these differences:
• Up B: Hair propeller (similar to DK, just like how Chrom has Ikes Up B)
• Grab: Cargo just like DK but with her hair of course
• Neutral B: Bubblegum shot. Slow projectile and slows down oppenents for some seconds by contact. (Would be interesting playstyle with bananas and bubblegum. Sounds really annoying and I would love it)
• And of course different taunts.
I still have some tiny hope left they will add her as an echo. I find it really weird that they introduced echoes, not only 2 months later we got 3 of them. Then long break. Then we got Ken who is more of a semi clone then an echo. And nothing after that even though echoes got positive feedback.
Imagine if we got Dixie in this direct as an echo alongside Chrom and Dark Samus, they would have added her in the King K. Rool trailer too and this image would be even more epic!
Also she would be in the Banjo trailer too. That would have been just perfect oh well...
For me Dixie as an echo would be totally justified only if she would have these differences:
• Up B: Hair propeller (similar to DK, just like how Chrom has Ikes Up B)
• Grab: Cargo just like DK but with her hair of course
• Neutral B: Bubblegum shot. Slow projectile and slows down oppenents for some seconds by contact. (Would be interesting playstyle with bananas and bubblegum. Sounds really annoying and I would love it)
• And of course different taunts.
I still have some tiny hope left they will add her as an echo. I find it really weird that they introduced echoes, not only 2 months later we got 3 of them. Then long break. Then we got Ken who is more of a semi clone then an echo. And nothing after that even though echoes got positive feedback.
Don't forget dash attack. THE main difference between all the DK playable characters. Dixie doing a cartwheel is just wrong. Honestly, she has the potential to become a Marth echo unique fighter that uses her hair to fight and also can have a nerfed version of the gliding mechanic that was scrapped after Brawl. Her spirit being Isabelle makes me think the devs think of that potential too.
Be careful of what you wish for. You might get a Ganondorf'd character and regret it after some time.
Imagine if we got Dixie in this direct as an echo alongside Chrom and Dark Samus, they would have added her in the King K. Rool trailer too and this image would be even more epic!
Also she would be in the Banjo trailer too. That would have been just perfect oh well...
For me Dixie as an echo would be totally justified only if she would have these differences:
• Up B: Hair propeller (similar to DK, just like how Chrom has Ikes Up B)
• Grab: Cargo just like DK but with her hair of course
• Neutral B: Bubblegum shot. Slow projectile and slows down oppenents for some seconds by contact. (Would be interesting playstyle with bananas and bubblegum. Sounds really annoying and I would love it)
• And of course different taunts.
I still have some tiny hope left they will add her as an echo. I find it really weird that they introduced echoes, not only 2 months later we got 3 of them. Then long break. Then we got Ken who is more of a semi clone then an echo. And nothing after that even though echoes got positive feedback.
Those things I bolded would require unique animation, as stated specifically from Sakurai has noted that Isabelle could not be made into an Echo Fighter of Villager due to her different body proportions, and him feeling that some of Villager's moves would be unsuitable for her and considering the huge differences between DK and Dixie's body structures there's no way that's going to work.
It's understandable that a lot of people think making Dixie an echo is as easy as giving her DK's up B because her helicopter is her most defining characteristic relative to Diddy, but you also have to consider things like dash attack, grab, probably neutral air since it's also a cartwheel.
Speed is a weird issue because sometimes she's a slower character and sometimes not. In DKC2, she's slower than Diddy, but she's a little faster in DKC3 and Tropical Freeze where she's not paired with him. She has low top speeds in the DK racing games, but she's a speed character in Mario Hoops and fairly fast in the Baseball games. It's very possible Smash would make her a little slower than Diddy but they also might not.
Nothing would be more regrettable than Dixie missing out on the last Smash Bros game to bring back every veteran and the best selling Smash Bros and Fighting game OF ALL TIME.
Nothing would be more regrettable than Dixie missing out on the last Smash Bros game to bring back every veteran and the best selling Smash Bros and Fighting game OF ALL TIME.
I know, but it's pretty much the truth honestly. 3rd party makes more money thus: They will take priority over the Nintendo characters for the DLC lineup.
Well life isn't always going to be fair, I mean its okay to keep on supporting but it isn't the end of the world if she remains absent.
As much as I would love to have Dixie myself, I've been very happy with how much Ultimate has to enjoy so far, I just don't think it's worth getting depressed about when there's so much bigger things to worry about.
Dixie as a semi-clone would still be incredible, and it's unrealistic for Dixie to not share even a couple of moves with Diddy. "Stuck as a semi-clone" like we're lucky if she gets in as anything other than an Echo Fighter.
Jab, Diddy's doesn't use his tail anymore so Dixie should be able to do it as well. Her final hit could be a hair whip though. Heck, you could outright make it like Diddy's Brawl / Smash 4 jab with ponytail whipping instead of tail whipping.
Down-tilt, the little clap Diddy does at his feet. Dixie's ponytail could maybe work as a Fox-style down tilt (he sweeps in front of him with his tail) as well, but a hand clap seems more practical since her ponytail is on the back of her head.
Fair and bair could work for Dixie if Sakurai goes with my idea that Dixie has a Peach-style hover. She could be hovering in place and move left and right while tossing out those screw kicks to shove opponents away. Otherwise I feel she could have sword-like Marth style swings of her hair to differentiate her from the other DK characters.
Having Diddy's dair could work for the same reason, though I imagine her doing it with her feet instead of her fists.
As for specials, if she was based on Diddy then having her Gumball Popgun could be an easy adjustment of Diddy's Peanut Popgun. I'd be okay if she had a Banana Peel down B even if I'd like something different, and if she has a move like Monkey Flip, I'd want her twirling toward the opponent rather than flipping toward them. Then, unlike Diddy, who grabs by himself, Dixie would latch onto the opponent with her hair. Obviously her up B, if it isn't original, would most likely be DK's up B since she's where he got it from.
That's all, really. I imagine Dixie like Luigi, Lucas, or Isabelle where a couple of normals here and there are shared, plus a few special moves, and the rest is her doing her own thing.
GameXplain knows whats up! GameXplain acknowledges what NintenWon't!
Anyway GameXplain also has a video going up of the top 100 female characters they would love to see in Smash Bros. They posted the bottom 50 and Dixie wasn't among them. I have a feeling she will place very high in their choices when the 2nd part gets uploaded tomorrow.
GameXplain knows whats up! GameXplain acknowledges what NintenWon't!
Anyway GameXplain also has a video going up of the top 100 female characters they would love to see in Smash Bros. They posted the bottom 50 and Dixie wasn't among them. I have a feeling she will place very high in their choices when the 2nd part gets uploaded tomorrow.
GameXplain knows whats up! GameXplain acknowledges what NintenWon't!
Anyway GameXplain also has a video going up of the top 100 female characters they would love to see in Smash Bros. They posted the bottom 50 and Dixie wasn't among them. I have a feeling she will place very high in their choices when the 2nd part gets uploaded tomorrow.
I would expect her to be in at least the Top 10, especially with how big of DKC fans they all are. Getting to the top of a list like this should be a no brainer for her, she should be at the Top of any 1st Party or female character list for Smash.
I didn't figure she'd be in the bottom 50 anyway (though I scanned just to be sure).
Also another thing that would almost definitely be different from Diddy is her final smash. There's a lot to choose from; you could have something with Kiddy Kong, bring in an animal buddy or two, summon Mama Bird, and there's the Banana Slamma from Tropical Freeze. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.
I was just playing Crash Team Racing Nitro-Fueled. God DAMN did they do a good job with the roster. Every character had some notable role throughout the series, even Fake Crash who was made to mock a knockoff toy, was a boss in a handheld game; the only 2 that break this rule are Baby Crash and Coco, but still with all the love Beenox showed the entire series, even from games I can't stand (Pasadena, Von Clutch and soon Rilla Roo), I love the whole roster.
Why can't Nintendo be this appreciative of their own racers!? If they cared about interesting racers as much as Beenox (who didn't even create these characters), we'd have Fawful, Pauline, Cackletta, Princess Shroob, Mona, Crygor, Syrup, K. Rool and Dixie in Mario Kart so fast it wouldn't be funny. Like seriously I hope Nintendo starts feeling the need to stop making billions of baby versions and random enemies their go-to extras.
Hmm okay but Gooigi better be in the next Mario Kart is all I'm sayin'
In all seriousness I agree. The racers don't matter as much as the racetracks but the selection we have in Mario Kart 8 Deluxe is definitely bloated with multiple Marios and baby versions of a number of Mario characters.
Its been nearly two months since I last posted in this thread. I am going to have a lot of things to say. I am also going to put out a reflective post before the end of the year in this thread, that will be quite lengthy.
I've been working on this for way too long. After many crashes and glitching out, I finally have what was supposed to be a solid and straightforward drawing:
That is basically the story of Dixie in general. Strangely missing titles that she should have seemed like a lock for. Diddy Kong Racing, Donkey Kong 64, Super Smash Bros. Brawl, Donkey Kong Country Returns, Super Smash Bros. 3DS/Wii U, and now seemingly Ultimate. Dixie is going to need to a massive loud fanbase if she is ever going to make the roster. Without that, she will simply continue to be "strangely" absent.
The Grinch leak had too many characters to be true. Regardless if it was true or not. Both timelines ended with Dixie excluded from Smash again.
My perfect timeline was Dixie appearing at the end of the K. Rool trailer. That would have been so hype (I was actually expecting that).
Yes. I said the same thing about it. Sakurai said numerous times that there would be less newcomers than prior games, but few picked up on that. After the unveil of Chrom and Dark Samus, Sakurai said there were only a "few" characters left to be shown (this few consisted of just K. Rool, Isabelle, Ken, and Incineroar).
I highly doubt that is going to happen. Almost every character fanbase believes the same, but heavily pushing for Dixie Kong might help her (it certainly worked for Ridley, K. Rool, Banjo-Kazooie). She needs a loud and passionate fanbase, but unfortunately, I do not know how or what to do.
The Dixie situation is ironic: she was considered in brawl (albeit as a tag team with Diddy) during a time where she was missing from DK games, then not considered when she became more active in DK. I thought she was guaranteed for Smash 4 with Tropical Freeze being made at the same time.
Although, Smash seemed to have this 'dislike' towards DK. Its content was embarrassing in Smash 4, especially not having a new character (Metroid too, but at least it got great ATs). Why Gogoat when Rambi would have been perfect? Thankfully Ultimate started fixing that problem. But it is absurd that one of Nintendo's best selling series, just coming off a great revival game just like FE and being one of the original 12 needed 5 Smash games before getting its 3rd character.
I thought Dixie would be an echo with a different Up B and DK's old final smash (her guitar lets out large shockwaves). I know that her being an echo is a touchy subject in Smash discussion and she can easily be a unique. I just thought an echo would have a safer chance to make it into Smash at this point.
I don't care how she is playable, just that she's playable.
Yeah. It is still surreal to me that of all my character desires that Dixie Kong is the only one left. I thought Ridley was likely never going to happen after Sakurai said he thought he was too big, that Castlevania had become too niche and forgotten, Banjo-Kazooie was outright owned by a competitor to Nintendo.
This is why even if a favorable situation emerges for Dixie Kong (like if DLC moves towards adding Nintendo characters) we should not take it as Dixie being likely. She has a very long history (over 20 years) of missing things that looked favorable for her.
As for an echo, as I said before, I think Ken-style (which is basically a semi-clone given the designation of an echo fighter) is the one that fits her best, and at the very least she would need to be Chrom level because she using her hair to fly/glide is iconic to herself as a character.
A key debate among supporters of many characters is whether you would sacrifice how unique a character would be in place of getting the character in the game. For Ganondorf, this proved to not work out well (he is gradually becoming more and more unique though), since Ganondorf was virtually guaranteed to be a Brawl newcomer. While for someone like Dark Samus, making it into Ultimate as an echo was effectively a miracle, and this was likely her last chance at ever being considered for a Smash Bros. roster (its outright miraculous she even made it into Ultimate).
For many Dixie supporters, they do not mind about Dixie being based off of Diddy, the question is how much. When the term echo fighter comes up, fighters like Daisy, Richter, and Dark Pit come up, characters will little or no gameplay or animation differences. Ken is the exception among echoes, and even Chrom is more different than most echoes. Dark Samus is a special case in that she has very small gameplay differences but she has a lot of unique animations.
At the very least she would have to have Chrom's level of differences (an unique recovery and Final Smash), and a large reason why Chrom even got a different recovery than Roy was because his even distribution of power across his sword meant he needed something to help balance him out. Ken is really weird in that he is closer to a semi-clone than an echo fighter, and no other echo fighters are anywhere near as different as he is.
As I said before, I think Sakurai would know better than to just give Dixie Kong a different recovery and Final Smash and then call it a day. I think anyone familiar with her knows how important the prehensile hair is to her as using it for flight. I think if she ever becomes an echo fighter she would probably be similar to Ken.
Honestly, I'd rather she just have Diddy's specials and have Up-B some of his normals be replaced with hair attacks. We're long past the phase of when making things up is acceptable.
I think you mean that she would have Diddy's specials and her own Up-B. I agree that she would really need to have a few of normal moves be hair attacks. Its an important part of her. I wonder though whether they would incorporate her picking up barrels and crates with her hair. I also think she should borrow DK's bottom special since she performs a move in Tropical Freeze where she slames hair on the ground from side to side.
I actually think the issue with Dixie's ponytail hitbox is probably what kept Dixie from being one of Ultimate's echoes. One of Sakurai's rules for an echo fighter is that they must share the same hitboxes as the character they are echoing. I think when they realized she would require almost semi-clone level of effort and balancing, she was dropped from consideration to be an echo. If she was an echo, it would involve the same justification Sakurai used for why Ken was still an echo fighter despite all of his differences ("Because I said so.").
I've been reading the problems Dixie faces in popularity, and my short response is this: I'm done waiting on a flood of people who will support Dixie now that X is in. All the people who did feel that way already showed up. I'm done hoping Nintendo will grace us with another DK game. They'll do it when they feel like it. We'll hype Dixie up ourselves. There's enough of us to build excitement for her, whether it's well-written essays, fantastic drawings, meme-like posts or whatever else.
People are itching for a strong female fighter? Boom, we got one. People wanna redirect attention to Nintendo characters? Boom, Dixie's right here. People wanna see a fighter that stands out from the rest? Boom, we got a Kong with an arm growing out the back of her head. An arm that's stronger than her limbs, that can lift, grab and throw, be used as a whip, spin like a fan and swim through strong currents. That's stuff that Diddy can't do at all, and stuff that Rayman, Shantae and Tails can only do some of.
We'll tell people why Dixie's so important to DK and why she earned her spot among Nintendo's greatest. I was surprised to see Dixie noted specifically in the TV Tropes' action girls page along with Samus Aran, and being the co-star of 2 excellent platformers as well as the star of a very good platformer is excellent too. She's not just a side Kong; she's more than the tritagonist, she's the star of her own game. She has 1 game under her belt that innovates the world map formula, introduced characters that originated in her game and brought mechanics that DK and Diddy don't have in their games. We're gonna let people know that, and I'm going to keep drawing up things every now and then. If anyone else has suggestions to build excitement and appreciate for Dixie never hesitate to share them.
Well said, very well said. I really appreciate all of your efforts maintaining this thread. Thank you for all of your hard work.
Its going to take a lot of time and effort to get Dixie Kong to the level of support she deserves. However, the only way it will happen is if fans of her are pro-active.
I have tried everything I personally am able to do, so its kind of hypocritical to make a call for action, when I feel like bowing out. Its a mixture of feeling worn out from doing character support and speculation for nearly 20 years, and the fact that Ultimate has already given me almost everything I had ever hoped for in Smash Bros. I feel spoiled to be pushing for Dixie Kong on top of everything else that Ultimate has given me.
I will try to do what I can. It is still surreal how out of every personal desire I had for Smash Bros., the one thing I deemed the most likely to happen, ended up being the only one that did not happen.
Nothing has happened this year for Dixie Kong fans aside from the confirmation of Banjo-Kazooie, which showed simply waiting for confirmations of other characters to boost Dixie is not a winning strategy. Dixie Kong fans will need to boost her ourselves.
Where as K.Rool only took a decade long hiatus. Still sucks but nowhere NEAR as bad as Pauline. Dixie also took a fairly long hiatus having been gone (not counting the GBA ports) all the way from 1996 - 2005. A 9 year hiatus.
Dixie Kong's hiatus was from 1997 (Donkey Kong Land 3) to 2004 (Donkey Konga 2). So nearly seven years. The scary thing is that if Dixie Kong does not make a new appearance in a new DK title or Mario spinoff, February 2021 will mark the longest period of time since her last wholly new appearance ever in her entire history.
I also strongly agree with you that Dixie Kong needs a new appearance in something. It would help her a lot.
Agreed. There's fanbases rallying around games that came out 10, 15, 20+ years ago and they're the ones keeping it alive. That's what we gotta do; I doubt we'll go 10 years before good news comes but we're in a relatively good spot to just build her up. I'm open to suggestions if you have some.
This is a very good point. Geno is bigger now than he was during his pre-Brawl days and his game is now over 20 years old. Isaac was at his peak last year when the GBA Golden Sun titles were over 15 years old. Dixie Kong is a protagonist in DKC2, DKC3, and Tropical Freeze, three of the best plaformers ever, and the plaformer genre is one of the most accessible around. There is little reason why Dixie Kong cannot gain a whole new generation of fans when her source material has aged very well, and very easy to get into.
It actually is. This is actually the longest gap of time without a wholly new DK title ever since the series was brought back in 1994. Heck, if you are looking at just platformers, Donkey Kong 64 was originally released in November 1999, while Donkey Kong Jungle Beat was released in December 2004. That is five years. As you said, the current gap we are in right now is about to hit SIX years.
I feel the same way. This roster is absolutely legendary (and we are getting more gaming icons on the roster in the months ahead). As far as Nintendo characters go, Dixie Kong feels like the final remaining piece to the puzzle.
It would be absolutely amazing if she were to somehow make it, but right now, things are very dire for her prospects.
At this point Im honestly only in it for the amiibo. Smash Ultimate has run its course for me. I've put 200 hours plus. K.Rool is bottom tier trash and I dont see him getting any buffs due to the casual crowd complaining about how "OP" he was at launch. .
This is pretty funny upon hindsight considering how K. Rool got some pretty big buffs with the last major patch.
Also, in regards to a Dixie Kong amiibo, the thing is unlike many other characters, Dixie actually does have merchandise of her, so there will still be a way to have her on your display shelf even if she ends ups never happening for Smash Bros. The World of Nintendo figurine for Dixie Kong in particular is very nice, and almost the size of an amiibo.
I said this before, but one thing I really wished had happened would be a 2D Metroid-like game with Dixie Kong as the protagonist (she would gradually gain new abilities she could use with her hair) with beautiful DKC-style pre-rendered graphics and a moody, atmospheric soundtrack by David Wise and Evelyn Fischer. I wish something like this had happened for the Nintendo 64.
The next few months sure will be exciting when they start rolling in the announcements of the bonus DLC characters. Hopefully Dixie Kong will be one of them.
It will be interesting for sure, but I am very doubtful on Dixie Kong being one of them. I don't see any Nintendo characters being DLC aside from possibly Akira Howard from Astral Chain and someone from Fire Emblem Three Houses (I find it very odd how there is still no spirit event for both of these titles months after release). I am also very confident Geno is going to be DLC for the second wave, though he is technically third-party.
Anyway if Dixie does get added to Smash one thing Im REALLY looking forward to is how Sakurai animates her. K.Rool, Donkey, and Diddy have some of the best/funniest/most cartoony facial expressions in Smash. K.Rool has the best walk animation hands down. So Im excited to see how Sakurai decides to animate Dixie. Does he continue with the overexaggerated faces? Or does he keep it more "reserved" for Dixie.
That is something I would be very curious about as well, as well as what her voice will be, whether it will be monkey noises, or have her voice actress from Tropical Freeze). In regards to the former (monkey noises), the problem is that Diddy is already pretty high-pitched, and it would sound weird with an even more high-pitched sounding monkey. However, on the other side, if Dixie has her Tropical Freeze voice actress, she would be the only DK character that does not sound like an animal. Personally, I would not mind the latter even if it would lead to an inconsistency in comparison to how the rest of the cast is represented because it would help distinguish her more.
Mike Essa did a really fantastic job with this trailer. I feel amazed Dixie Kong has wonderful artists like him, SeashoreWar, and BirthNote backing her. Hopefully, more will join up in the future.
Same. Dixie Kong is actually my favorite Rare-created character by a very large margin. She is even my favorite Western created game character in general.
However, I will be done even if Dixie Kong does not happen for Ultimate's roster. Ultimate was my dream Smash Bros., and unfortunately the next game in the series will likely remove much of the characters that I personally really love in this series (Roy and Lucas have already been cut once before, and I imagine that cuts will extend even to characters that have never been cut before in Smash Bros.). Secondly, as you get older, doing character support and roster analysis becomes less and less fun and a poorer usage of what little free time you have.
I have a good feeling that Dixie will make it in at some point during the next rounds of DLC. Might not be part of a fighter pass but I could definitely see her being sold separately similar to Piranha Plant. With the recent coding found on the Smash website by ResetEra, it suggests there might be a solo character before the second pass starts up. Would be a good time to release her in my eyes. Plus she almost made it into Brawl while having pretty consistent requests since then so I wouldn’t Right her off quite yet. The newest DK game also does nothing but help boosts her chances.
I appreciate your optimism, but I highly doubt Dixie Kong would ever be sold separately of a pass, and this is coming from someone that thinks very highly of her. Piranha Plant was a free bonus for early adopters. I am also doubtful in general about her being DLC. I think DLC for the next season is going to be exclusively third-party, and if there is a Nintendo character it will be someone from Astral Chain and/or Fire Emblem Three Houses (both of which are still lacking content in Ultimate months after their release).
I'm glad that Dixie is dominating that poll, and that the top 3 overall are Dixie, Toad, and Waluigi. I don't voice this very often but I do like Toad very much, even if they aren't as major a player in the Mario series as Dixie is (i.e. Toads, while present in most Mario games, are not always playable, whereas in every DK game that Dixie has appeared in, she's playable). One day I hope to see Captain Toad at least, since Toad and another Toad are Peach and Daisy's counters.
Toad is definitely very underrated as a character, and among the few iconic Nintendo characters left not part of the roster. It is very strange how he has never been a part of the Top 10 despite being a Mario staple from the very beginning and even being the main protagonist of multiple spinoffs (Wario's Woods and Captain Toad). It has even gotten to the point where even his female buddy, Toadette, is having major roles in mainline Mario titles.
I felt that way back during pre-Smash 4, and I remember even saying I felt Dixie Kong had a decent chance of being the Wolf (as in the final character added to that game, and the final unlockable character in general) to that title.
I feel that being seriously considered and planned for Brawl has not helped her upon retrospect. It could very well be the case that Sakurai does not feel she work well as a stand alone character, or maybe not as much work was made in regards to Dixie's moves as a stand alone character as I thought.
Now is our chance; it’s time to be more vocal and persistent than ever. Trust me, it worked for supporters of Ridley, King K. Rool, and Banjo & Kazooie.
It will work for Dixie Kong. I envision her fighting alongside Diddy Kong and Donkey Kong as they have their long awaited rematch with King K. Rool.
Currently, there is a push on the boards for more female representation in the DLC. Let’s shift the attention to Dixie by bringing up first party female characters, then bringing up anthropomorphic female characters because there is a lack of them compared to male ones.
Remember fellas, the two key adjectives for our movement vocal and persistent!
Welcome to the Dixie Kong support thread. You have the correct sentiment and right attitude. Dixie fans need to be assertive and voice their support if she is ever to happen.
So with Doomguy and Geno next, with Ryu Hayabusa and Crash being very likely too, it seems we will only get third party characters for the rest of Smash Ultimates DLC.
I like these characters, dont get me wrong, but Dixie not in the roster still bothers me. (Also Xenoblade only 1 charater bothers me too but no Dixie is even worse...)
I already said before that all of our DLC for Ultimate is likely going to be third-party. The only piece of Nintendo DLC we got after Piranha Plant aside from spirits was a Mii costume for Team Rocket. I still think a character from Three Houses and/or Astral Chain right now is a possibility though. I do think Geno and Doom Slayer are very likely coming of the characters you listed.
Yeah, those game marketers at the time really got their humble pie for underestimating Dixie Kong.
For fans pushing for more female DLC presentation, we should definitely bring this up to them; how Dixie broke down that barrier when there were doubts about her at first by some game marketers, and then how she proved them otherwise.
Back in the fourth generation era of gaming, it wasn’t just Samus that broke down that barrier and made female protagonists taken more seriously, it was also Dixie and her role and impact on the market was huge.
Yes. A lot of people do not understand this about Dixie Kong, and even more impressive Dixie's appeal was not sex appeal. She has "Mario appeal". She is likable across demographics much like Mario despite her unconventional design.
Man, I'm going to be kind of ****** off if they're no Nintendo characters after the Season Pass. It would be a crime if Dixie Kong misses the boat in Ultimate.
It would be a shame, but its the most likely outcome. It is going to take a miracle for Dixie Kong to be a part of Ultimate's roster. She is not a promotional character and she does not have a loud and large fanbase. It will take a very special set of circumstances to get in.
If there are Nintendo characters after the season pass Dixie better be the first one. I'll be even more pissed off if there are 1st Parties and Dixie isn't one of them.
I already said this many times before but I see Astral Chain and Three Houses characters as possibilities. Outside of that, the only possibilities I see are characters with large and loud fanbases that got deconfirmed like Waluigi and Isaac. Dixie Kong will need to be extremely lucky to make it in.
I just recently bought and beat Tropical Freeze and it completely rekindled my love for the Donkey Kong series and Dixie. She’s definitely the best character in the game.
I’m all for supporting her inclusion in Smash. I already liked her to begin with, but now I really want to see her make the cut. I was really happy to see K. Rool finally get in. She’s the last missing piece of the puzzle. The DK series deserves at least another character. And Smash especially could use another female.
It is actually worse. Dixie has never had an unique moveset for her through Smash mods. Even for Brawl and Project M its just a model swap for Diddy Kong. I don't think there are any mods that actually have her use her abilities.
The large figurine all the way out in front is the childhood toy I had of Dixie Kong. It was one of my favorite toys during childhood. I also bought the small figurine next to that large figurine back in 2011. That was actually the beginning of me re-discovering Dixie Kong (there were no more new titles I played starring Dixie Kong after I got Donkey Kong Land 3 back in Christmas 1997, and I would not play another new release with her until I started to play through the GBA port of DKC3 back in early 2012).
I had lots of fond memories with that figurine. It was quite uncommon back during the 1990's for merchandise to exist of video games characters (especially anything outside of Mario and Sonic), so I really cherished having a toy of one of my favorite game characters.
Sometimes the best things in Nintendo's history come from rushed/short development cycles. DKC2 released a mere year after the original DKC and its by far the better game in both gameplay and soundtrack. Majora's Mask IMO is also better than OOT. Kirby Planet Robobot is also a good game despite coming out a mere 2 years later after Triple Deluxe (which is also really good).
Obviously theirs exceptions to the rule. DKC3 was a stepdown from 2 and 1 IMO. Metroid Prime 2 is the worst in the trilogy and it had the shortest development cycle out of the 3. Of course both NSMB2 and NSMBU were both incredibly mediocre IMO releasing only 5-6 months inbetween.
I strongly disagree with your opinions on DKC3 and Metroid Prime 2.
I think DKC3 is much better than the first DKC title. It has better controls, much better level design, an expanded world map system, much better boss battles (all of DKC1's bosses aside from K. Rool are simply giant versions of enemies, and two of them are repeated twice), and much better usage of the animal buddies. Maybe someday I will get into what makes DKC3 so great, but I think that title being as underrated as it is, is another thing that has hurt Dixie Kong. DKC3 is one of the best platformers for the SNES, and that is very strong praise considering this is the same console that has Super Mario World, Yoshi's Island, and Donkey Kong Country 2. DKC3 is not quite on their level, but its just in the tier below them. Its a really, really good game, and it deserves much more praise than it currently receives. It is definitely at least a better game than the first game. The only two things I think DKC1 does better than DKC3 are it has a better and more atmospheric soundtrack, and it is generally a more atmospheric game in general (I actually think DKC1 is the most atmospheric title in the trilogy).
As for your opinion on the Prime trilogy, Prime 2 is easily better than Prime 3. It even does quite a few things better than the first Prime. I would actually compare Prime 2 strongly to Majora's Mask. Much like Majora's Mask, the traditional mythos of the Metroid series (the Metroids, Space Pirates) take a backseat in that title, and it even is one of the few Metroid titles where Ridley does not show up. The Sanctuary Fortress is one of the best designed areas in the whole Prime trilogy, and the boss fights in general (Quadraxis, the Dark Samus fights, Chykka) are among the pinnacle of the series. The game also utilizes the morph ball to a far greater extent that the other two Prime games. Prime 2 does have its issues, but the only game in the trilogy I would put above it would be the first title. Prime 2, much like DKC3, is a very underrated title. I think it is one of the best games in the Metroid series, and I think the only two games that outclass it are Super Metroid and Metroid Prime (I would place Zero Mission and Prime 2 as the next two best Metroid titles after them).
Going back to the topic, I think DKC3 is a fantastic game. It does not break a whole lot of new ground, but its still one of the finest platformers you could play. Enjoying both DKC2 and DKC3 as much as I did helped make Dixie Kong one of my favorite game characters during the late 1990's.
Maybe some day I would get into what makes DKC3 a great game, as well as my personal story when I was playing through it for the first time.
By comparison, for the 20th-anniversary of DKC, it was celebrated by bringing the DKC trilogy back to the Wii's Virtual Console (it had been delisted for a few years), as well as putting up the entire trilogy for the Wii U's Virtual Console, and the entire Donkey Kong Land trilogy to the 3DS's Virtual Console.
^its pretty wild to think about how DKC3 outsold every SNES Final Fantasy, Kirby Super Star, Mega Man X, Killer Instinct, Chrono Trigger, etc. despite having no real impact on gaming besides making fun of Kiddy Kong.
Yes. DKC3 actually sold nearly two million copies in Japan alone, and ended up being within the Top 10 best selling SNES titles even though all eyes were focused on the Nintendo 64 and 3D games in general at the time. That is very impressive. I just wish DKC3 was regarded better by fans. It definitely it is one of the finest platformers there is, and that is very strong praise.
Around times like these it's up to us as fans to keep Dixie and DKC alive. We're doing well in that regard; y'all are keeping this thread active, giving the twitter page healthy updates, providing excellent art and posting links to polls, cake recipes and providing rallying posts like @Kold Pizza ''s; we can always up the ante but we're off to a solid start. I'm gonna be lurking until a bit after thanksgiving but I am very happy with how the thread has thrived. Keep up the great work everyone; I'll be silent but I'll always give shoutouts in the thread's title.
That is the spirit. While there are no new developments for either Dixie Kong or the series as a whole, we can still rally and talk about what we love in particular about Dixie Kong and the DK series as whole, as well as any topics pertaining to them.
That's a better way of putting it, I suppose. Still, I don't really have any desire to be jealous of the Metroid representation, mostly because while it did get two newcomers, one of them, Dark Samus, just doesn't feel right as an Echo Fighter to me. I understand the position Dark Samus was in, where she hadn't been in a game in over a decade, was canonically killed off, and was unlikely to ever return despite being a huge part of the Metroid Prime series, but I'm not one of those people that's happy that Dark Samus came back at all. I wanted her as either a semi-clone or a unique fighter, especially since her Assist Trophy in Smash 4 showed her doing stuff we know Samus never could.
All the effort the Smash team put into Dark Samus' animations, making her feel more eerie and alien than Samus, I do appreciate that. But it ultimately can't quite make me happy seeing her just do Samus' attacks with none of her own (except her Final Smash, which does fit her more than it fits Samus). I look at all the people who want Dixie Kong in as an echo and I wince. Even if the same animation work was done on Dixie to make her look distinct from Diddy, it still wouldn't feel right to me, and I assume other users in this thread. So ultimately I see it less as "Metroid has it better than us!" and more as "both Metroid and DK got a hugely requested unique villain character, oh and I guess Metroid got an unfortunate compromise of an Echo Fighter with Dark Samus as well."
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This is another opinion I strongly disagree with. I am extremely glad Dark Samus made it onto the roster, even as an echo fighter.
Dark Samus has the most unique animations of any echo fighter, with the possible exception of echo in name only, Ken. They made lots great subtle references to Dark Samus's source material in her animations too. Please read this essay I wrote. Dark Samus was done as well as we could hope for a typical echo fighter. The essay I wrote is very long (over 3,000 words), so only read it if you have the time. However, I am personally glad Dark Samus is on the roster, and her animations went a very long way to making her feel like Dark Samus despite having only very slight gameplay differences.
Some of the people here are saying that her inclusion as an echo did not represent her well. There are several things to keep in mind. One is that Dark Samus might very well have the most miraculous inclusion of any newcomer in Ultimate (and that really says a lot). It really took a special set of stars aligning to even happen as an Assist Trophy in Smash 4, which was what it even took for her to register on Sakurai’s radar as a possibility for a (likely) last minute echo fighter.
Dark Samus is a Western created character. Of these, all of the ones that have been included have had massive fan campaigns for their inclusion. Dark Samus by comparison was barely a blip on the radar and had lost much of her fanbases and requests over the course of this decade as the Metroid Prime trilogy gradually faded from contemporary memory. Her support topic during pre-Smash 4 was only nine pages long, and got locked before the Smash Ballot was announced (so she has no base to which to rally her for the ballot). The demand for her, like with Castlevania, was a quiet one outside of the “Smash Bubble”.
I wrote this in the celebratory confirmation topic for Dark Samus:
If Metroid Prime 3 had not been released after Brawl was in Japan, Sakurai might never have looked at the game to throw it a bone in terms of content. Dark Samus making it in as an Assist Trophy was absolutely critical to Dark Samus getting upgraded. Again, if it were not for Prime 3 releasing after Brawl, and Sakurai wanting to throw that game (he gave most of the new Metroid content in Smash 4 from Other M) a bone, Dark Samus could very well not have made it since he likely would probably have not have been personally aware of her (and thus realize how feasible of an echo fighter she would be).
Also, the fact that echo fighters even exist is another star that had to align for DS. The reason the echoes even came about was due to Sakurai bringing back Dr. Mario as a costume and then having second faults about how his particular fans would feel about him losing what made him unique from Mario. Sakurai making Dr. Mario his own character again was the impetus Sakurai needed to decided "why not upgrade Lucina and Dark Pit."
The ballot happening was another thing that needed to happen. People had to ask for Dark Samus to show she had enough popularity to even be upgraded. Ridley being a boss, likely siphoned some votes from Ridley to Dark Samus seeing as most people thought the ballot was for Smash 4 DLC.
Another star that had to align was the fact that Ultimate is true newcomer poor. There are likely only a few non-echo newcomers left. Sakurai added the clones in Melee due to feeling he did not add in enough newcomers (only eight at the time). The echoes fulfill the same purpose. They boost the number of new fighters to the game.
Dark Samus right now is the only character aside from Little Mac to have been promoted from an Assist Trophy. LITTLE MAC. Look at how big the Ashley thread was. Look at how loud Waluigi fans are. Dark Samus managed to do something only one other fighter was ever able to do (maybe you can say Charizard managed to do it too since he was a Pokeball Pokemon in 64 and Melee). Little Mac (and Charizard) are iconic legends. Dark Samus defied all of these odds and made it in. Even echo status is impressive for Dark Samus.
Later I wrote this, after the entire base roster was known in the beginning of November 2018:
I do not mean to make a second post in a row. However, with us knowing the final roster, and Sakurai saying there will not be any echoes as DLC, this just further cements just how lucky Dark Samus was to make it. Not even Shadow, Impa, or Octoling were able to make it as echo fighters. Daisy, Chrom, and Ken all had major appearances in recent years (Daisy in Super Mario Run and almost every Mario spinoff, Chrom in Fire Emblem Warriors where he even got an amiibo, Ken in Street Fighter V). Richter got in through being the character whom much of Simon's moves were taken from (as well as being the Belmont from arguably the most popular Castlevania title, Symphony of the Night). Dark Samus by comparison made her last appearance 11 years ago, and hails from a franchise where it took 17 years of high volume requests just to get the most iconic and popular character after Samus in (Ridley).
Out of 11 newcomers and only five echo slots, Dark Samus managed to make it in.
and
Another thing to consider is that Dark Samus is the only character aside from Isabelle and Little Mac to be promoted from an Assist Trophy. Isabelle is an icon for one of Nintendo's most popular franchises (she is probably the most popular Animal Crossing character at this point), and Little Mac was the face of one of Nintendo's long running franchises (older than every franchise except Mario, DK, and Game & Watch) that had a very successful Wii installment. Not even Shadow (who seemed like an easy echo) made the jump. Dark Samus's promotion was a fortunate anomaly.
Dark Samus beat absolutely incredible odds to even become an Echo Fighter. Dark Samus’s inclusion on the roster was not a result of a massive fan outcry, relevance, Sakurai’s own personal favoritism, or strange whims (like the reasoning behind why Piranha Plant and why Dr. Mario was originally included in Melee). Sure she was popularly requested, but I imagine there were many other characters that had higher requests for her.
When Brawl was released, there was at least a “next time” for Ridley fans, but for Dark Samus fans the fact was that Prime 2 and Prime 3 would simply be getting older and more forgotten, as well as the fact that Ridley would always cast an ever growing shadow over her. Dark Samus was actually in requests where K. Rool was during most of pre-Brawl. She was popular and well-liked, but most Metroid fans saw Ridley as the bigger priority (much like with Diddy Kong in comparison to K. Rool).
Two years ago, who would have thought that out of Metroid, Kirby, Donkey Kong, and Star Fox, that Metroid would be the first one to four playable characters, and that if Metroid ever did get to four playable characters, that even Dark Samus would be among them (especially with Sylux poised to be a to major character in Prime 4).
Dark Samus’s inclusion was simply miraculous.
In regards to her inclusion as an echo fighter, while its a shame she never got to exhibit any of her unique abilities as a playable figher in Smash Bros., she got a lot of attention as far as echo fighters are concerned.
Among the game’s seven echo fighters, there is a lot of variation in terms of how much they differ.
Both Daisy and Richter are the two echo fighters with the least differences from the character that they are echoing. Richter does have one gameplay difference separating him from Simon, but it only matters in a handful of match-ups (Richter’s holy water not having fire properties), but he has no unique animations (he is simply more “bouncy” than Simon for his idle animation). Daisy has no gameplay differences, but a few unique animations (outside of taunts and victory animations) such as her onscreen debut animation, her idle animations, her dash/run animation, and her turnaround animation, as well as unique graphics for several attacks (like daisies replacing hearts and having different artwork for her Final Smash).
With Lucina and Dark Pit, there are are almost no unique animations outside of victory animations and taunts (both have an unique no contest/defeat animation, and Lucina has a slightly different animation for Shield Breaker and for her onscreen debut animation), but minor gameplay differences. Dark Pit only having two of his specials have different properties and an unique Final Smash. Lucina on the otherhand is among the most different echo fighters gameplay wise simply due to her not possessing Marth’s tipper mechanic, as well as different property for her up aerial move. However, otherwise, both of these echoes have little unique animations aside from the minimum taunts and victory animations.
Chrom and Ken got the best treatment as far as echo fighters are concerned. Chrom is a similar echo fighter to Lucina in that he does not have Roy’s sweetspot mechanic, and even power distributed across his sword. He also possesses unique animations outside of victory animations and taunts. His idle animations are all unique, and he has slightly altered animations for several of his attacks (for the attacks where Roy hold his sword in the reverse grip, Chrom holds the sword in the regular grip). Chrom outright has two different moves from Roy, an unique recovery (Soaring Slash) and Final Smash (Awakening Aether). Gameplay wise, the only echo that exceeds Chrom is Ken.
Ken is in a league all his own. He is closer to a semi-clone than the rest of the echo fighters, to the point where Sakurai mused to himself in a column that the only reason Ken is still considered an echo fighter despite all his differences is simply because “he said so”. Ken is faster than Ryu for both walk and run speed, has different properties for all of his specials, two unique Final Smashes, two unique command inputs, an unique held neutral attack, an unique held forward tilt, an unique forward Smash, unique neutral air, unique up air, and unique back throw. Ken is a semi-clone given the echo designation.
Now where does Dark Samus fit in this? She obviously has more differences to her than Daisy and Richter. However, she does not have any major gameplay differences to any of her moves like the rest of the echo fighters. However, this would do an absolutely disservice to just what makes Dark Samus stand out compared to the rest of the echo fighters, and that attribute being the large amount of unique animations that she possesses.
Dark Samus is an echo fighter, that possesses unique animation in places where many semi-clones do not have them. Dark Samus has the most unique animations of an echo fighter aside from possibly Ken. She possesses an unique onscreen debut animation (which is a subtle reference to a Japanese Prime 2 interview for how she managed to make herself to Aether). She also possesses an unique idle animation, as well as unique animations for all of her walk speeds and dash (the only echo that has this attribute). Dark Samus is also the only echo to possess unique jump animations, unique roll animations, an unique dodge animation, an unique perfect shield animation (which she makes a similar pose as her official Prime 3 artwork), and an unique turn around animation (notice how her body jerks around after you pivot after you are done dashing). Dark Samus also has unique animations for her Smashes (especially forward smash), and two of her specials (side special and neutral special). Dark Samus also has unique touches to her such as her arm cannon splitting apart for certain attacks (like her Smash forward and Final Smash), and even sprouting phazon tendrils. A lot of animation work was put into her.
Dark Samus is on another level in terms of animation differences. She probably had the most animation work put into her of all the echo fighters, and possibly on par with Ken. Heck, she has more unique animations than many of the clones (such as Dr. Mario, Young Link, and maybe Pichu). Unlike many semi-clones, Dark Samus possesses unique animations outside of attacks. Her non-gameplay animations (jumping, walk/run, dodge, idle) are all unique.
The uniqueness of her animations are enough to make her stand out as a character even though she is 95% similar to Samus gameplay wise. I must really commend the work the Ultimate team gave to Dark Samus in terms of animations. She might even have more than Ken. Dark Samus might be the most interesting echo fighter for this reason. In general, the echo fighter category is one that has a lot of flexibility, thus you see fighters like Richter who might as well be an alternate costume to Ken who is practically a semi-clone.
Dark Samus falls somewhere in between. She stands out more than Richter and Daisy and probably Dark Pit, but she does not have the gameplay differences Lucina, Chrom, and Ken have. However, Dark Samus is peculiar in that her animation differences are vast and more extensive than most of the echo lineup with the only possible exception of Ken. Differences for walk/run, dodge, roll, and jumping are not even typically found among the regular type of clones.
The development team gave Dark Samus a lot of love for an echo fighter. It was not simply a lazy addition. The only additional things I would have asked for while still being true to being a typical echo fighter were if she had actual gameplay differences for two of her specials, as well as her haunting cackle as one of her taunts. A track rip of her boss fight theme from Prime 2 or Prime 3 would also have been nice.
Dark Samus’s addition helped make the Metroid series “complete” in terms of playable representation. I remember back in 2008 thinking Dark Samus no longer had a decent shot of being a part of the roster since her time in the Metroid series was likely over. I never personally desired Dark Samus because I was entirely focused on Ridley getting in. However, I remember thinking back when playing Prime 2 what a cool character she was despite having an unoriginal name.
However, I remember back in the day just saying Dark Samus had no place getting in before Ridley. The thing is I remember wishing Metroid was just Samus, Ridley, and Dark Samus, but the inclusion of Zero Suit Samus meant that only one of the latter two would make it into Brawl, and once Brawl was released, it seemed like Dark Samus was shut out forever.
Seeing her on the roster, also made me remember an idea I wrote a decade ago about how clones could give characters that or minor or no longer relevant in their franchises a chance to be on the roster. The specific example I used was Vaati, who was the villain of sub-series of three games in the Zelda series much like Dark Samus is within the Metroid franchise.
The reception about Dark Samus’s moveset echoes (heh) a lot of the same sentiment that I heard when Ganondorf was a clone in Melee. However, unlike Ganondorf, there was not going to be a possible later date for her possible inclusion. Dark Samus was on the verge of being forgotten, and once Prime 4 releases, Sylux would be seen as a much higher priority for inclusion.
The next game in the Super Smash Bros. series is likely going to purge much of Ultimate’s roster unfortunately, and likely at the top of the list for cuts are clones and characters that are no longer relevant within their own franchises, a quality that Dark Samus has both of.
I do hope that Dark Samus does someday have a moveset that incoporates much of her own unique abilities, but it is a flat out miracle that Dark Samus even managed to make it into the roster as an echo fighter, and for her to get special treatment as an echo fighter.
My hope is that Sakurai and his team do at least give some more gameplay differences to the echo fighters before all development and work on Ultimate is completely wrapped up. Even slightly tweaked properties for specials would go a long way.
However, I am just thankful Dark Samus managed to make the roster at all, and was one of many pleasant surprises that Ultimate had for me personally. Dark Samus is a very underrated character in general and probably one of Nintendo’s best villains, and I always thought the Prime series deserved more content in Smash Bros.
I hope this post highlights not just how miraculous it was that Dark Samus made it onto the roster, but also that there was quite a bit of work put into her despite being an echo fighter. I think the amount of unique animations she has is very much overlooked.
I don’t know what measures can be taken to make sure she survives a large contraction of the roster, but hopefully if she does she also manages to be worked into having the unique abilities she displayed in the Prime games.
However, what Dark Samus is and mean is very important. It shows a character can still make the roster even when nearly all hope seems lost, that its still possible to be included even if you do not have a large and loud fanbase or have a lot of prominence.
Dark Samus was finished as a character in her own franchise for over a decade by the time Ultimate was released. She never managed to come from underneath the shadow Ridley cast over her, and her best poll results after Brawl’s release were usually within the lower end of the Top 20. Lots of characters overshadowed her for movements. Yet somehow, Dark Samus managed to make it in despite breaking all the conventional beliefs about what it takes to be included in Smash. She was old news, not a Smash Bubble rockstar, hailed from a smaller franchise, and for her category of fighter (echo) there were lots of candidates that were much more recognizable than her.
Yet despite all the odds, Dark Samus manged to be selected as one of Ultimate’s five echoes. It is a testament to fans of ALL characters that hope can still exist for your character of choice, even if the situation looks conventionally extremely dire.
I apologize for this essay being quite a bit longer than planned. However, I hope it does help those who feel disappointed with how Dark Samus turned out gain a new perspective about her inclusion. Her inclusion on the roster is simply miraculous, and arguably the most miraculous one of them all.
I do appreciate the work the team put into her all her animations to help her feel more like Dark Samus. I think personally that succeeded. She is one echo were the animations alone are enough reason to try out the character, and that might actually make her interesting as an echo.
The inclusion of Dark Samus onto Ultimate’s roster is a story of hope to all character hopes out there. The deck was stacked against her and she was essentially a relic from the pre-Brawl days.
Dark Samus was a character whose prominence in her series was over for over a decade. Also, she was not a request superstar (though I surmise she did well enough on the ballot to catch Sakurai’s attention for a possible echo candidate). Metroid itself also got its “quota” in already having a newcomer with Ridley finally being added. According to conventional belief and speculation ideals, Dark Samus seemed doomed to never ever make it into Smash Bros.
However, as has been said in regards to Ultimate as a whole, the possible was made possible in regards to it happening. While Dark Samus is an echo fighter, the team certainly did what they can to distinguish her from Samus while having to devote little if any additional balancing time and effort to her as a separate entity.
Moreover, her inclusion in Ultimate means she gets her own piece of merchandise. By comparison, Daisy and Chrom both had received amiibos prior to their inclusion of Smash. The amiibo of Dark Samus will probably be the only piece of merchandise this character ever will receive (same with many other characters on Ultimate’s roster).
I strongly urge everyone who read this piece to try out Dark Samus again and observe all the different animations I listed to see just how much work the team put into her, especially relative to other echoes. She was a great addition on the roster, and while not perfect, I applaud Sakurai and his team for implementing her.
Dark Samus was never a character that I asked for. For me personally, she never registered as a character desire because Ridley was my single most wanted newcomer. There was a period where I thought of Dark Samus being a newcomer alongside Ridley for Smash 3 from early 2005 to mid 2006, but the moment Zero Suit Samus was announced, I felt it was either going to be Ridley or Dark Samus going forward, and I wanted Ridley by far. I was agreeing she would make a great choice for the roster, but felt Ridley needed to be there first. However, my dream was that both Ridley and Dark Samus would make a Smash roster together, but felt it was unlikely to happen ever happen.
However, Dark Samus somehow ended up joining the battle. To me even her presence on the roster is still surreal even over a year later. Her inclusion story I felt was unsung in comparison to many other newcomers that have made it into Ultimate, and I hope this essay shows not only how miraculous it was but also that there was quite a bit of work put into her inclusion as an echo fighter.
Thank you for your time in reading this piece.
As for Dixie Kong as an echo fighter, Dixie Kong is characterized by her prehensile hair (specifically being able to use it to fly and attack enemies). I am sure Sakurai and the development team are aware of this as well. A Dark Samus style echo (an echo fighter characterized by a wide assortment of animation differences) would not fit Dixie Kong at all, because it is her abilities that distinguish her from Diddy. She has a similar body to Diddy, but ultimately she is iconic for using her hair to fly and attack. The only type of echo where you could somewhat be true to Dixie is what Chrom had (unique recovery, Final Smash, and some animation tweaks). However, if you wanted to be true to her, she would probably have to be what Ken is, a semi-clone given simply the designation of an echo fighter (of which Sakurai said the main reason Ken is still considered an echo fighter is because "he said so").
Anyone think about the fact that nearly every Spirit battle that has an Assist Trophy or Base Game Mii Costume associated with that Spirit utilized that AT or Mii Costume, but not Dixie’s. Weird.....
I almost wonder if the Dixie Mii hat was made at the last minute when they realized that lacked a notable "consolation prize" for her. Or perhaps a dire alternative, it was an asset to a planned Dixie Kong that got scrapped soon after the model was made. I still think its possible Dixie was considered for an echo fighter spot, but then Sakurai and the team either realized that, it would take too much work (to make Dixie feel like Dixie) and/or it would not be true enough to who Dixie was.
Forgot to check in here for DKC's 25th anniversary, happy to see there was so much support!! Dixie Kong is an essential part of the DKC series, and having her in Smash would, I feel, give us a sense of completion for DK series reps. At least, for how the series currently stands. Dixie is a major piece of that puzzle, and without her, yeah, it's a missing piece. Having the top three is nice, and I can certainly live with it, and even when stacked up against others series in Smash, it does feel fair. But... Deep down, we all know, Dixie deserves to be part of it.
Anyway, it's great to celebrate DKC with the fans, journalists, and staff of the games (Nintendo themselves can get shoved into a barrel though) View attachment 247826
Happy 25th Anniversary Donkey Kong Country!!
Nintendo should have released the classic DKC trilogy on SNES online by now, it would be a great 25th year anniversary gift for the series.
It would also boost Dixie’s popularity among the new generation of gamers that have a habit of buying virtual copies of games online, including classics.
No matter what happens to this series at this point, I’m glad to be part of this fanbase. Kudos to everyone here for keeping Dixie Kong’s popularity going. She is a character that has overcome a lot of adversity; from being left out of DK 64, to appearing as a playable character in only very few spin-off games (fewer than DK and Diddy) such as DK: King of Swing and the Mario baseball games, to finally getting a big return to a mainline DK game (Tropical Freeze) and into the spotlight.
Dixie has a bright future ahead of her. You can’t really say that about those other Kongs; Tiny, Lanky, Chunky, Kiddy, Candy, Wrinkly, and Swanky.
When future DK games hopefully arrive, we’d be fortunate to get even a reference to the other Kongs years from now.
We can’t just sit around and hope Nintendo will fulfill our needs for satisfaction, that’s not going to happen. I completely agree with what numerous fans have already said here, we need to take more action and be more vocal about the DK series’ current situation. It was amazing to see K. Rool finally coming to Smash. It was also great to see Tropical Freeze ported to the Switch. But don’t just stop there; push for Dixie in Smash and push for more DK games.
We need to build a bigger platform for our fanbase and give developers our perspectives, one of the biggest problems with the gaming industry today is the gaming “journalists” have a bigger platform than we do. Remember when someone from Gamespot gave Tropical Freeze a 6 out of 10 when it released for the Wii U, I do; and that reviewer said in his subjective review that it wasn’t anything special and it didn’t have compelling gameplay or great level designs. Also, I recall back when DKC Returns released, someone from IGN made an article that said most of the DK characters created from Rareware don’t need to return because they are uninteresting and unneeded (he hoped he wouldn’t see characters like Dixie, Cranky, Funky, and the Kremlings return). As you can see, a noticeable portion of the gaming media doesn’t understand or even give a damn about the Donkey Kong series that is so beloved here.
It sounds silly for me to complain about what gaming “journalists” think as if they are influencing game developers’ views on fans and their needs. At the same time though, if we had a bigger platform to speak out from, it would gather more attention, and it would let developers know DK fans are actually not satisfied (right now a portion of people at Nintendo think we are or are not sure if we’re even that big of a fanbase). Right now, what we can do with whatever influence we have is get more active on social media and get Dixie for Smash trending more on twitter as well as our needs for more DK games. We got #WorldDonkeyKongDay trending before, so let’s keep at it.
Lots of great ideas in this post. I agree Dixie and DK series fans need to be very proactive if Dixie is to have any shot going forward.
However, I am going to disagree with you that Dixie Kong has a bright future ahead of her. Dixie Kong is now in her second longest streak without a new game appearance (the original second oldest streak from from 2008's Mario Super Sluggers to early 2014's DKC Tropical Freeze).
Dixie Kong also has a very long history of missing critical DK titles. She was absent from Diddy Kong Racing, Donkey Kong 64, DK Jungle Beat (though every Rare created DK character was), and DKC Returns. It is certainly possible that a new DK title is made and goes back to the characters that DKC Returns had plus K. Rool. Dixie fans need to be loud and proactive to let Nintendo and developers know she is a very cherished part of the DK brand.
There is also the fact that the DK series as a whole will now be going its longest streak between platformer releases. DK64 to Jungle Beat was five years. We are now going on six years since Tropical Freeze's release, and with Retro Studios working on Prime 4, we might very well be looking at a decade (or nearly a decade) between DK titles.
That reminds me... I remember a wave of journalists calling the DK games overrated back in the early to mid 2000s. It started to feel unanimous; it was mostly directed to DKC1 and DK64 whereas the sequels got swept under the rug, and they were using a comment from Miyamoto to justify it.
From my understanding Miyamoto was salty about his superiors urging him to make Yoshi's Island more like DKC; he threw some shade at first but eventually apologized and cleared things up, but that statement morphed into "Miyamoto hates DKC" and it didn't help that DK was getting shafted and snubbed by Nintendo constantly until Returns got announced. Then he said during an IGN interview that he's learned people think he hates DK, then further clarified that he played an active advisory role with the Rare DKC games.
Personally, I do think DKC and DK64 are not even among the best platformers on their respective systems (DK64 in particular is a case study of the worst excesses of the 3D platformer). DKC1 was still a groundbreaking title though (it was probably the title to help the SNES win the console wars between the Sega Genesis and SNES in North America), and has among the best scores and atmosphere for any game on the SNES.
However, in regards to that Miyamoto quote. The thing is that quote actually never existed, and was probably just a lie made by the author (or truth mixed with lies):
I have always found dumb how being a spirit is an instant deconfirmation. They can just make the original Smash artwork the spirit like they did with Robin (Who doesn't have a full body artwork) or Cloud (Because Square Enix).
Bad luck is almost as characteristic to her as her prehensile hair unfortunately. I imagine making Mario Kart Wii's roster would have ton tremendous things for her. It was the highest selling Mario Kart title ever (over 37 million copies sold). I still think the worst absences for her were Diddy Kong Racing and Donkey Kong 64. She has still not recovered from that.
This why I keep saying Dixie Kong is going to need a tremendous miracle to ever make it in. Things just simply never work out for her it seems. Even with Tropical Freeze which was her big debut return, the title launched on Nintendo's worst selling console, and many people overlooked the game's release because they felt another DKC title was not needed. Even the re-release on Switch has not sold as well as other Wii U ports.
Its going to take just as much stars aligning for Dixie to make it into Smash Bros. as what it took for Dark Samus to make it in (it really took a very special set of circumstances for Dark Samus to make the roster). However, one of the most important aspects is what her fanbase does for her. Dixie fans need to be loud and passionate just as Ridley, K. Rool, and Banjo-Kazooie fans were.
Also never bought a Wii U cause Smash 4's roster didn't do much to me. I purchased a 3DS later however tho, and played the game tons at a friend's house on Wii U.
The thing about the DK series is; some of the current generation of gamers don’t find DK’s characters appealing as they would with anime characters. That said, one of best things about a character like Dixie Kong is that we don’t ever have to be troubled with some random guy at a forum like Gamefaqs calling her a “waifu” and we, instead of that, can truly appreciate her for her personality, impact on DK fans, and what she brings to the table like her hair spinning abilities that is a true game changer.
ChronoBound
made a great point back in post #8122 as it pertains to what Dixie means to the DK community and how enormous her appearance in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate would be for us fans here.
Dixie is truly a one of a kind heroine. Her appeal is about how fun she is and the games she stars in. DKC2, DKC3, and Tropical Freeze are three of the best platformers ever made and Dixie Kong is an essential part of all three of them (she is widely regards as the most helpful partner in Tropical Freeze).
As I said before, she has "Mario appeal", she is popular across demographics despite an unorthodox design due to how fun she is to play as. I think she might actually be the pinnacle of Rare's character designs.
Sorry for the double post but I wanted to post this video:
This is something I've been wondering for YEARS. What is going on with Retro Studios? Most Nintendo youtubers are so far up Nintendo's ass that they are too afraid to make videos like this. Im glad we have Arlo to deliver content like this. It brings awareness to the topic and this impacts DK as a series.
I am actually nervous about how Prime 4 will turn out due to this. Lots of the people who worked on the Metroid Prime trilogy are now gone from Retro, and supposedly the game they were working on for the last several years was an original IP that got scrapped due to it not being "good enough". If Prime 4 underperforms, there probably will not be a third DK title from Retro Studios.
I feel like Quawks is dumb. Purple Squawks? Maybe if he/she looked more different I'd be OK with it. The Squirrel from Jungle Beat makes more sense for Quawk's role, at least in DKC2. Although I don't really like how that squirrel looks like either, looks like a pig, and there are no good DK pigs.
I might be one of the few that really liked Quawks, though the DKC3 incarnation on him. I thought he was a nice twist on Squawks, and basically offered another new animal buddy for DKC3 aside from Ellie (and I guess Parry, who you cannot play as).
I did not know the purple parrot as Quawks until this decade though. I just kind of thought of him as "Purple Squawks" or "Purple".
When I was a kid, I actually had a cute little backstory developed for him. He was a realtive of Squawks, either a brother or cousin. He really admired Squawks and really looked up to him. However, he was a far weaker giant parrot than Squawks, he could barely even fly. He really, really wanted to be a help to the Kongs. For the Zinger hive in Gloomy Gulch (Parrot Chute Panic), Quawks offered to Squawks to be a help to get the Kongs down the hive safely. It was a lot of hard work for Quawks but he was able to do it, and the Kongs were grateful for his his efforts. The effort took a lot out of Quawks and he was not able to help at all for the rest of their journey through Crocodile Isle.
However, Quawks wanted desperately to be stronger. He wanted to be a bigger help, but no matter how much he trained he could not get up to Squawks, level, nor did he have the ability to spit out eggs like Squawks did. However, he wanted to be a bigger help in the Northern Kremisphere than he was in Crocodile Isle. He looked to develop something that could be something that would help out the Kongs while also distinguishing himself for Squawks. He tried with various weights to get his flight strength better, but no matter how hard he tried, he never could lift a similar amount of weight as the Kongs for very long. However, he noticed that he could clasp onto things very well, even objects where he could not put his talons into. Quawks continued to develop this skill.
He got his next chance in the Low-G Labyrinth. The low gravity made it easier for him to fly. It was the perfect place to test out his grasping skills. He proved to be a valuable asset for that portion of Mekanos. Quawks now no longer felt like he was worthless for being unable to carry the Kongs. Through encouragement from the Kongs and other Barrel buddies, Quawks continued to build up his stength. Quawks tried and tried. However, he was never able to be strong enough to pick up the Kongs. However, Quawks was slowly able to be able to fly, and not just fly but be able to at least pick up barrels.
Quawks offered to help the Kongs get through the Buzzer Barrage, a cave fortress set up by K. Roolenstein that was filled with his cyborg insects. It was also a barrel depot for the Brothers Bear before K. Roolenstein took over the Northern Kremisphere. The Kongs and animal buddies did not know how to make it through this area. Quawks insisted he could do it, that he had to do it. Privately, Quawks had doubts in himself, but knew it was up to him and him alone if the party was ever to make it through Buzzer Barrage.
It took every ounce of strength and then some for Quawks to make it through. This was by far the most physically exhausting thing Quawks had ever been through in his entire life. Quawks thought his body would collapse at any moment during the last third of the Buzzer Barrage. However, Quawks's thoughts turned to his friends, and how they all needed him, how Diddy and DK needed him. He was the best hope they had, and he was not going to let anyone down.
Quawks barely made it through Buzzer Barrage. His wings and talons badly strained from the whole ordeal of Buzzer Barage, but he made it nevertheless. Quawks became a new hero to the parrots of the DK Island, and a tale that even if you are handicapped in something, through perserverance and developing other talents you might have, you can still become a hero.
This is an example of the kind of imagination I had when playing through games during the late 90's and early 2000's. I apologize if it went on too long.
Truth be told, I very much liked the little Christmas bonus in DKC3. There were so much Christmas specials on TV that I wondered why there were no Christmas themed places in games (later there was sort of "festive" places in some N64 games like Banjo-Kazooie, Diddy Kong Racing, and sort of Super Mario 64). I really thought it was a nice touch, and I imagined especially Kiddy was excited to grab the bulbs and ornaments.
On the topic of games with Christmas themes in them, I really like Christmas NiGHTS. It is basically a glorified demo, but its still very charming and has a lot of extras in it (such as being able to play as Sonic).
Dixie Kong's support has gone down quite a bit despite K. Rool and Banjo-Kazooie being in. Dixie Kong fans need to build her fanbase or she will continue to be ignored as a character prospect, especially if the DK series does not receive any new installments or if Dixie is not in any of them.
You have the right attitude here though. Dixie needs passionate supporters more than anything else. Just look at how it has worked for so many other characters.
Its kind of a shame that the DK franchise felt so lost in the wilderness in the early oughts after Rare's acquisition by Microsoft and before Retro stepped in for Returns. Not that Konga or Jungle Beat were without their charms, but the lack of development on what the Country trilogy built and the de-emphasis on the cast outside Donkey Kong did feel like a waste. There's no way of knowing for sure, but if the franchise had stronger momentum during the time, we might have gotten K Rool in Smash earlier and maybe even would have Dixie now.
I think it was a combination of DK64 leaving a sour taste in a large portion of the audience's mouth and Nintendo not knowing what to do with DK after Rare left that resulted in the series losing its momentum from the 90's. Aside from Jungle Beat, the 2000's DK titles were ports, the Konga games (there were actually three of them in Japan), and the Paon trilogy (King of Swing, Jungle Climber, Barrel Blast). Only with Returns did the series return back to its sales heights since DK64, but it lost its footing again due to the Wii U being a flop. Its a shame because many regard Tropical Freeze as the pinnacle of modern platformers, and perhaps even the best platformer ever (I have yet to play it, so I cannot say personally).
I think this thread has one of the biggest supporter lists of any threads on this site, and a lot of of people who announced their support for Dixie was when the Ultimate was initially unveiled, so it is a decent possibility that you did forget. Welcome back.
I actually think there is a very good chance Dixie will have her kneepads brought back if she were to ever make it onto the roster. Sakurai and his team like to make old design callbacks like that and sometimes go for amalgamations (like what happened with K. Rool's Ultimate design).
I just want a spirit character confirmed to reignite discussion. It is so boring hearing people discuss only third parties, and a select few at that all the time.
There will be a spirit confirmed, but it is going to very likely be Geno, so it will do very little to ignite more discussion on Nintendo characters since Geno is technically third-party.
I really really hope so myself. However, for spirit promotions the only one I see happening is Geno.
If Assist Trophies get promoted, things get ugly for Dixie as well because Dixie does not have as loud and passionate a fanbase as many of the characters there. Characters like Waluigi, Isaac, and Bomberman are the top candidates there for promotions.
Dixie needs to get very, very lucky to be DLC for Ultimate. There are not many scenarios I can see where Dixie is looked at as a possible candidate for inclusion. Just as Dark Samus, she needs all the stars to align for her unfortunately.
I think a Nintendo rep is certainly possible. However, right now the only ones I am seeing as possibilities are someone from Astral Chain and/or Fire Emblem Three Houses. I find it very suspicious there is still no content for those those two games in Ultimate months after release.
Who knows? Maybe she was built solely around being Diddy's partner in means of central playstyle and feel, and after that not working out, Sakurai didn't perhaps find much more incentive to add her otherwise after Diddy seemed to stand very well on his own - I mean, she didn't exactly "return" as part of scrapped data in Smash 4, nor got to be even part of DLC in that game, in spite of having become relevant after years of absence through Tropical Freeze.
Might even be compounded by how Sakurai finally got to have bigger table and time on experimenting with more broad and creative playstyles in form of Smash 4's newcomers - since most of them more on gameplay direction of more unique and personified on each. Maybe that might have played him not bothering on her own after getting "separated" from Diddy, incase it just presented her as not interesting on her own. Of course, that's before all the other possible factors we don't know about + priority/favoring on the other current newcomers, that could be why she's not been enough to warrant playable spot on Sakurai's eyes so far.
Quite unfortunate too since we all here have been demonstrating on and on how Dixie's trademark ability can be built up to make a quirky and charming moveset.
My theory is that Sakurai only thought of Dixie in a tag-team mindset and probably does not think of her as interesting enough to add as a solo character (at least currentl. If he did have enough stuff mapped out for her to be a separate fighter, she would have been a semi-clone or Ken-style echo in Smash 4 or Ultimate, I used to think being planned for Brawl was a massive step in her favor during pre-Smash 4. Now at the end of 2019, I am thinking that there simply either was not much work done on Dixie have her own moves (when Diddy was a tag team character) or Sakurai thinks Dixie needs to be in a tag team to be interesting or worthy of inclusion (which might explain why her spirit upgrades to Dixie & Kiddy).
Ridley is there with Dark Samus. Meanwhile K. Rool is there all alone. I feel bad for him (Well he actually feels fine because usually Dixie kicks his thicc ass).
Also Morgana, get out of there you are not even a playable character!!
Don't worry. Next year we will have a bunch of new character added. Hopefully one of those includes the best Kong.
Next year I think is the year a lot of big fanbases from this current year will get their character. Geno, Doom Slayer, a Namco character, a Capcom character (though only if Fighter 5 is not a Capcom character), Ryu Hayabusa, are all strong possibilities for next year's DLC.
However, as with you, I do hope that Dixie somehow finds her way as part of that DLC. I think though it is going to be all third-parties, with the possible exception of an Astral Chain and/or Three Houses character.
Right now, Geno is the only character that is a spirit that I am optimistic on being promoted to playable status.
I honestly wonder if part of the reason she isn't in, is because Sakurai didn't feel like Dixie fans were loud enough. Maybe he thought if he added KKR, DK fans would be more content with that? Because I can't speak for everyone on this, but I felt KKR and Banjo fans were a LOT more worried about them ever appearing in another game again, so they made sure they were really loud about it.
Or maybe he just simply doesn't find her as interesting of an inclusion as a lot of the other DLC chars he had planned. Who knows. By Smash 6 though, since the crossover aspect is now gone, it might be a little easier for her to squeak by. Still... she gets into Smash, finally but at the cost of missing out on the biggest video game crossover in history. That's a monkey's (heh) paw situation if I ever saw one.
Dixie fans certainly are not as loud as they should be (and same with the overall size to the fanbase). As I said before, it actually reminds me of Roy's fanbase. A large fanbase, but quite passive in support and attitude. I think Dixie needs the same push if she is to ever make it in.
I do think it might be the case Sakurai simply does not find Dixie interesting (or at least not interesting as a solo character).
As for your comment on Smash 6, I personally think there will be a lot of cuts for that title, and it would be quite difficult for Dixie to make it in for that scenario especially if her fanbase continues to diminish and fails to make any more new game appearances by the time the development plan is drafted for that title.
As I said before, even if Dixie was added to the next title, it would feel hollow to me because many of my favorites would no longer be a part of the roster. For me personally, Dixie is the last piece of the puzzle, but I am grateful for what happened with Ultimate. Ridley alone was a dream I thought would likely never be realized after 2014.
Many other unlikely dreams were also realized with Ultimate. I said before (even within this post), that I feel bad for asking Sakurai and his team for another personal desire after everything I had already been given. I know Dixie is most likely not going to happen, but I there is a part of me that still wants to hope it can.
Samus and Dixie were two of my favorite game characters during my childhood, and it was Samus being a part of Smash 64 that even got me as hyped for the game as I was. Now 20 years later, all that is left for me is the other Nintendo heroine of the 90's, Dixie Kong. It is amazing to think how much Smash Bros. has expanded in that time.
I don't think we needed to compete with K. Rool, I just think it's ridiculous that 2 DK newcomers is seen as "too much", when other series routinely get multiple newcomers all the time.
The development resources for the base roster were really limited. I do wonder though if the thought of making Dixie some sort of echo had crossed the mind of the team, but it eneded up not panning out or they decided it would be too much work (since she would likely skew into Ken territory in terms of differences). It is understandable why Dixie did not make the base roster, but I do wish she at least had a decent chance at being DLC.
I still firmly believe that Dixie Kong not being included as an Echo Fighter in Smash Ultimate's base game is a sign that yes, the developers see her as more than just "girl Diddy". If that's all she was to them, she would have gotten in already.
The only semi-clone in the base game was Isabelle, and I think this is 100% understandable. Isabelle has just been a steadily rising star and her absence as a playable character would have been weird to Animal Crossing fans, but her proportions don't match Villager at all so when making her a clone, they made her especially unique and even gave her the fishing rod that some Animal Crossing fans were confused wasn't in Villager's moveset.
Also, and I hope DKC fans don't take this too personally, but in the time around Smash 4 and between 4 and Ultimate's release, Isabelle was simply in more games than Dixie was; Isabelle was always going to be higher priority for that alone if there was only one clone they could upgrade to semi-clone, or only one spot for a semi-clone in general. The developers needed to maximize the amount of full blown newcomers they could implement with the limited newcomer space they had with Everyone Is Here, and even Echo Fighters take time, and I think every base game Ultimate newcomer was chosen very well (Incineroar could have been any Pokémon Sun and Moon creature, though. Pokémon is probably the only series to have an actual "slot" for a fighter these days).
I think if Dixie ever gets in, she'd be a semi-clone like Isabelle was, or at the very least a Chrom style Echo Fighter where her up-B is different. Of course, like I stated in the first paragraph, they could have just done that in the base game but they didn't, so I'm more confident in the semi-clone theory. Here's hoping again that the post Pass DLC will indeed be a mix of third-party and first-party (I don't see Sakurai or Nintendo stopping the third-party train) and that Dixie is part of the latter even if the latter is partly advertisement picks from recent or upcoming Switch games.
I think a Ken-style echo could also work for Dixie Kong because it is basically just a semi-clone that takes an echo designation. Chrom-style is the only other one that could technically work (because it would allow for her to have her iconic flight and a different Final Smash), but I think there are lots of other little touches that the team would like Dixie to have that would likely push her over to Ken territory.
I think as a stand alone character (not part of tag team), Dixie will probably be some variety of semi-clone, and those are still time consuming to do regardless of the fact a character can be used as a base.
Interesting. Cool to see Dixie, but her Diddy mannerisms are pretty weird. I guess this is a glimpse of what Dixie would be like if she was an echo. Gives me the heebie jeebies.
The fact that there is still no mods for a Dixie moveset (just model swaps where Dixie is pasted over Diddy and acts exactly like Diddy), is sad. Toad, Geno, and Waluigi all have their own unique movesets made for them through Project M, yet Dixie still has not happened yet. I think a big problem for this is that Dixie, while most of her maps well to Diddy, her ponytail proved to be a major problem for moveset implementation. I think it is likely this is also an issue that has come up with the development team (and perhaps part of why she was not pursued further as an echo).
One of the things people seem to gloss over or outright forget about Dixie, is that even back in DKC2 Rare made sure to differentiate her from Diddy as much as possible. She didn't just run slower than Diddy, she ran with her own animations, she climbed with her own animations, attacked differently and with her own animations, grabbed and threw differently, with her own animations. Cleared a level differently, had her own leitmotif, idles, death and falling animations. Not to mention an ability Diddy couldn't do at all.
From the get-go she was her own Kong with a superficially similar look to her boyfriend. They were 2 small Kongs rocking a hat and shirt combo and fused eyesockets, but when you looked at their abilities, attacks, mannerisms and animations you'd easily see they weren't interchangeable. Every playable Kong was like that with nuance; compare Diddy and Dixie to Mario and Luigi, Pac-Man and Ms. Pac-Man, Cuphead and Mugman, and many other Player 2's out there. Luigi literally started off as a palette swap before slowly getting his own identity over the decades; Ms. Pac-Man is (despite what she says) Pac-Man with a bow and beauty mark; her differences is based entirely on her game's maze layout; Mugman is the same as Cuphead outside of a different head, blue shorts and different "Get Ready!" poses. Even Shadow, who I thought was much better than Sonic as a kid debuted with only his own running animations, one less ability (Bouncing) from Sonic and a cutscene move called Chaos Spear. It's remarkable that they managed to make Dixie different in her very 1st game; most developers tend to make one base model, change up the face and color scheme, then call it a day; Nintendo is notorious for this, especially in the sidescroller days.
This needs to be reflected if she gets into Smash Bros. Tacking her onto Diddy's model with a tweak here or there won't do; she didn't debut as Girl Diddy and we shouldn't settle for that in SSB. Different Dash Attack, Speed, Grabs, Throws, Air Game, Down Smash (Tropical Freeze) and Up B are the absolute bare minimum in addition to her own animations. There's tons of moveset potential, and like Mariomaniac said, if ROB, Duck Hunt and Piranha Plant (as well as Olimar) can get their own unique moves so can Dixie. Those characters had less material to work with and look how they turned out; Moveset potential should never be a problem.
I agree. It is very strange to me that Smash fans have this very weird conception that she is "girl Diddy" when she very much contrasted from him from the very beginning.
That is very much the case. When no one challenges a particular opinion, it becames common knowledge among a particular community. That is actually what happened during pre-Brawl in regards to Roy. I saw no one else speaking up for him, so I decided to do so myself. It just takes one person to do some pushback, and to get others on the sidelines to speak up as well.
Dixie as a semi-clone would still be incredible, and it's unrealistic for Dixie to not share even a couple of moves with Diddy. "Stuck as a semi-clone" like we're lucky if she gets in as anything other than an Echo Fighter.
Personally, I think she at the very least needs hair attacks in addition to a hair based recovery. As I said multiple times before, I believe a Ken-style echo would work. I do not think other styles of echo (except possibly Chrom) would even be feasible. The hair recovery alone is as iconic to her as her pink beret.
Imagine if we got Dixie in this direct as an echo alongside Chrom and Dark Samus, they would have added her in the King K. Rool trailer too and this image would be even more epic!
Also she would be in the Banjo trailer too. That would have been just perfect oh well...
For me Dixie as an echo would be totally justified only if she would have these differences:
• Up B: Hair propeller (similar to DK, just like how Chrom has Ikes Up B)
• Grab: Cargo just like DK but with her hair of course
• Neutral B: Bubblegum shot. Slow projectile and slows down oppenents for some seconds by contact. (Would be interesting playstyle with bananas and bubblegum. Sounds really annoying and I would love it)
• And of course different taunts.
I still have some tiny hope left they will add her as an echo. I find it really weird that they introduced echoes, not only 2 months later we got 3 of them. Then long break. Then we got Ken who is more of a semi clone then an echo. And nothing after that even though echoes got positive feedback.
Don't forget dash attack. THE main difference between all the DK playable characters. Dixie doing a cartwheel is just wrong. Honestly, she has the potential to become a Marth echo unique fighter that uses her hair to fight and also can have a nerfed version of the gliding mechanic that was scrapped after Brawl. Her spirit being Isabelle makes me think the devs think of that potential too.
Be careful of what you wish for. You might get a Ganondorf'd character and regret it after some time.
I think these would be the minimum she would need as an echo in order for Dixie to feel like Dixie. A different Final Smash, recovery, dash-a, different jump animation (based off her jump animation from DKC2 and DKC3), and the Bubblegum Pop Gun. I would also like to see her be able to lift barrels and crates with her hair. I would also like her to have her ground pound attack from Tropical Freeze.
If they do decide to go the echo route with Dixie, I think it is certainly possible that Dixie Kong ends up as an echo even more different than Ken, and the excuse Sakurai uses for still classifying Dixie as an echo ends up being, "With all of these differences, why is Dixie still considered an echo fighter? Well, having Dixie next to Diddy on the character select screen, just feels right."
I think her hair in general being used for attacks opens up a lot of possibilities for her, and I think this might be one of the reasons why she was deemed not echo material (or traditional echo). A Dixie that would feel like Dixie would like take far more work than any of the echos currently on the roster, even Ken.
Nothing would be more regrettable than Dixie missing out on the last Smash Bros game to bring back every veteran and the best selling Smash Bros and Fighting game OF ALL TIME.
It is pretty neat that we have this great sort of diversity of thought and opinion among the Dixie fanbase. You have MushroomGuy12 who feels even a Chrom-style echo would be a enough to represent Dixie, while you have Arymle Rosanne, who dislikes the idea of Dixie being any incarnation of echo fighter or even a semi-clone. The Dixie fanbase is one with plenty of interesting ideas and thoughts. It is not a hegemonic like many other fanbases, thus you get lots of different ideas and thoughts put out in regards to her.
As to your post proper, I do think it would be disappointing for Dixie Kong to miss out on what is likely the pinnacle of the Smash Bros. series., or at least of Smash Bros. as we currently know it, however, we must still not forget just how much Ultimate has given us and how miraculous so many things were for it.
I want Dixie Kong a lot, but if we simply look at what we did not get as opposed to what we got, we will end up very bitter.
I think so too. There is technically small chance for her, but her prospects are no better than any other Nintendo character with a decent amount of popularity and prominence in their franchise. She most likely will not make it for this title. However, Dixie fans should not stop trying to push for her to be DLC in Ultimate. It is a longshot, but so many other things that ended up happening in Ultimate were also longshots.
I mean a year ago, we probably thought we would be waiting on the last DLC character for Ultimate at this time. Now we have another year of DLC to look forward to. As another character who also ended up miraculously being included is fond of saying, Anything Can Change.
Right now there is not much reason to believe Dixie will be DLC, but we should still hope for the best and try building her fanbase.
Listen, I have been a big fan of Dixie Kong before you were even born. Some of my fondest childhood memories back during the 90's was playing DKC2 and DKC3 as well as playing with my Dixie Kong figurine. She was one of my favorite childhood toys and I always kept her on my nightstand at night. She means a lot to me, and I feel bad that there was a period of my life where I had basically forgotten about her (I was say 2002-2010). It was only until this decade that I rediscovered just how special she was, and why I she was one of my favorite game characters.
Life is not fair. You need to accept that. There are also a lot of times you simply do not get what you wanted or hoped for.
Even if Dixie fails to make it into this title, you are still young, You can champion Dixie for the next title. By comparison, many of us in this thread are in our early 30's and late 20's, and do not feel like wading through online discussions for a game character as we get older, have more important priorities, and less free time.
Yes, it is disappointing that Dixie Kong might very well not make the roster to capstone of the Smash Bros. series and onto a roster as legendary as Ultimate's, but you should not be childish about it. Take defeat with dignity and look towards the future.
Many of us plan for Ultimate to be our final outting with the Smash community. Ultimate even turning out the way it did was even the reason I decided to come back after Smash 4. If Dixie fails to make it in, at least you will have something to look forward to. For myself, there are many characters I cherish on the present roster that I know will most likely not come back next time, and I would want to see Dixie side by side with them. Regardless of whether she is included or not, Ultimate is legendary for me. Ridley. Every veteran returning. Castlevania. Banjo-Kazooie. It is simply miraculous.
You are a very ardent supporter of Dixie, something she really needs, but I think it would be for the better for you to adjust your perspective and attitude. I believe you can, and we will be there to help you along the way. I think all of us deep down have a small amount of hope left that Dixie can somehow be part of Ultimate's roster and that it is not over until it is over, so I will say even though we are not expressing it in the same strong words as you, we will be just as disappointed as you that Dixie did not make this legendary title.'
Dixie Kong is a special character. However, whether she ends up in UItimate despite this is another story.
I am not attacking you, I am just concerned for you. I really hope you understand.
I would expect her to be in at least the Top 10, especially with how big of DKC fans they all are. Getting to the top of a list like this should be a no brainer for her, she should be at the Top of any 1st Party or female character list for Smash.
I agree with you there. I think she will be within the Top 10, but I am not certain whether she will be within the Top 5. It will be interesting to see though.
I have been working on this response in this thread for quite a while. We are now nearing the end of the year, and are at the cusp of knowing the next character in Ultimate. It will be interesting to see who is added next. There is some more things I want to say, but due to how massive this response post has been, I will save it for another time. I will try to get out what I want to say before the end of the year though. I apologize for the sheer scale of this post and how long it ended up being. I just wanted to put in my thoughts for various posts made for the last two months.
This is another opinion I strongly disagree with. I am extremely glad Dark Samus made it onto the roster, even as an echo fighter.
Dark Samus has the most unique animations of any echo fighter, with the possible exception of echo in name only, Ken. They made lots great subtle references to Dark Samus's source material in her animations too. Please read this essay I wrote. Dark Samus was done as well as we could hope for a typical echo fighter. The essay I wrote is very long (over 3,000 words), so only read it if you have the time. However, I am personally glad Dark Samus is on the roster, and her animations went a very long way to making her feel like Dark Samus despite having only very slight gameplay differences.
Some of the people here are saying that her inclusion as an echo did not represent her well. There are several things to keep in mind. One is that Dark Samus might very well have the most miraculous inclusion of any newcomer in Ultimate (and that really says a lot). It really took a special set of stars aligning to even happen as an Assist Trophy in Smash 4, which was what it even took for her to register on Sakurai’s radar as a possibility for a (likely) last minute echo fighter.
Dark Samus is a Western created character. Of these, all of the ones that have been included have had massive fan campaigns for their inclusion. Dark Samus by comparison was barely a blip on the radar and had lost much of her fanbases and requests over the course of this decade as the Metroid Prime trilogy gradually faded from contemporary memory. Her support topic during pre-Smash 4 was only nine pages long, and got locked before the Smash Ballot was announced (so she has no base to which to rally her for the ballot). The demand for her, like with Castlevania, was a quiet one outside of the “Smash Bubble”.
I wrote this in the celebratory confirmation topic for Dark Samus:
If Metroid Prime 3 had not been released after Brawl was in Japan, Sakurai might never have looked at the game to throw it a bone in terms of content. Dark Samus making it in as an Assist Trophy was absolutely critical to Dark Samus getting upgraded. Again, if it were not for Prime 3 releasing after Brawl, and Sakurai wanting to throw that game (he gave most of the new Metroid content in Smash 4 from Other M) a bone, Dark Samus could very well not have made it since he likely would probably have not have been personally aware of her (and thus realize how feasible of an echo fighter she would be).
Also, the fact that echo fighters even exist is another star that had to align for DS. The reason the echoes even came about was due to Sakurai bringing back Dr. Mario as a costume and then having second faults about how his particular fans would feel about him losing what made him unique from Mario. Sakurai making Dr. Mario his own character again was the impetus Sakurai needed to decided "why not upgrade Lucina and Dark Pit."
The ballot happening was another thing that needed to happen. People had to ask for Dark Samus to show she had enough popularity to even be upgraded. Ridley being a boss, likely siphoned some votes from Ridley to Dark Samus seeing as most people thought the ballot was for Smash 4 DLC.
Another star that had to align was the fact that Ultimate is true newcomer poor. There are likely only a few non-echo newcomers left. Sakurai added the clones in Melee due to feeling he did not add in enough newcomers (only eight at the time). The echoes fulfill the same purpose. They boost the number of new fighters to the game.
Dark Samus right now is the only character aside from Little Mac to have been promoted from an Assist Trophy. LITTLE MAC. Look at how big the Ashley thread was. Look at how loud Waluigi fans are. Dark Samus managed to do something only one other fighter was ever able to do (maybe you can say Charizard managed to do it too since he was a Pokeball Pokemon in 64 and Melee). Little Mac (and Charizard) are iconic legends. Dark Samus defied all of these odds and made it in. Even echo status is impressive for Dark Samus.
Later I wrote this, after the entire base roster was known in the beginning of November 2018:
I do not mean to make a second post in a row. However, with us knowing the final roster, and Sakurai saying there will not be any echoes as DLC, this just further cements just how lucky Dark Samus was to make it. Not even Shadow, Impa, or Octoling were able to make it as echo fighters. Daisy, Chrom, and Ken all had major appearances in recent years (Daisy in Super Mario Run and almost every Mario spinoff, Chrom in Fire Emblem Warriors where he even got an amiibo, Ken in Street Fighter V). Richter got in through being the character whom much of Simon's moves were taken from (as well as being the Belmont from arguably the most popular Castlevania title, Symphony of the Night). Dark Samus by comparison made her last appearance 11 years ago, and hails from a franchise where it took 17 years of high volume requests just to get the most iconic and popular character after Samus in (Ridley).
Out of 11 newcomers and only five echo slots, Dark Samus managed to make it in.
and
Another thing to consider is that Dark Samus is the only character aside from Isabelle and Little Mac to be promoted from an Assist Trophy. Isabelle is an icon for one of Nintendo's most popular franchises (she is probably the most popular Animal Crossing character at this point), and Little Mac was the face of one of Nintendo's long running franchises (older than every franchise except Mario, DK, and Game & Watch) that had a very successful Wii installment. Not even Shadow (who seemed like an easy echo) made the jump. Dark Samus's promotion was a fortunate anomaly.
Dark Samus beat absolutely incredible odds to even become an Echo Fighter. Dark Samus’s inclusion on the roster was not a result of a massive fan outcry, relevance, Sakurai’s own personal favoritism, or strange whims (like the reasoning behind why Piranha Plant and why Dr. Mario was originally included in Melee). Sure she was popularly requested, but I imagine there were many other characters that had higher requests for her.
When Brawl was released, there was at least a “next time” for Ridley fans, but for Dark Samus fans the fact was that Prime 2 and Prime 3 would simply be getting older and more forgotten, as well as the fact that Ridley would always cast an ever growing shadow over her. Dark Samus was actually in requests where K. Rool was during most of pre-Brawl. She was popular and well-liked, but most Metroid fans saw Ridley as the bigger priority (much like with Diddy Kong in comparison to K. Rool).
Two years ago, who would have thought that out of Metroid, Kirby, Donkey Kong, and Star Fox, that Metroid would be the first one to four playable characters, and that if Metroid ever did get to four playable characters, that even Dark Samus would be among them (especially with Sylux poised to be a to major character in Prime 4).
Dark Samus’s inclusion was simply miraculous.
In regards to her inclusion as an echo fighter, while its a shame she never got to exhibit any of her unique abilities as a playable figher in Smash Bros., she got a lot of attention as far as echo fighters are concerned.
Among the game’s seven echo fighters, there is a lot of variation in terms of how much they differ.
Both Daisy and Richter are the two echo fighters with the least differences from the character that they are echoing. Richter does have one gameplay difference separating him from Simon, but it only matters in a handful of match-ups (Richter’s holy water not having fire properties), but he has no unique animations (he is simply more “bouncy” than Simon for his idle animation). Daisy has no gameplay differences, but a few unique animations (outside of taunts and victory animations) such as her onscreen debut animation, her idle animations, her dash/run animation, and her turnaround animation, as well as unique graphics for several attacks (like daisies replacing hearts and having different artwork for her Final Smash).
With Lucina and Dark Pit, there are are almost no unique animations outside of victory animations and taunts (both have an unique no contest/defeat animation, and Lucina has a slightly different animation for Shield Breaker and for her onscreen debut animation), but minor gameplay differences. Dark Pit only having two of his specials have different properties and an unique Final Smash. Lucina on the otherhand is among the most different echo fighters gameplay wise simply due to her not possessing Marth’s tipper mechanic, as well as different property for her up aerial move. However, otherwise, both of these echoes have little unique animations aside from the minimum taunts and victory animations.
Chrom and Ken got the best treatment as far as echo fighters are concerned. Chrom is a similar echo fighter to Lucina in that he does not have Roy’s sweetspot mechanic, and even power distributed across his sword. He also possesses unique animations outside of victory animations and taunts. His idle animations are all unique, and he has slightly altered animations for several of his attacks (for the attacks where Roy hold his sword in the reverse grip, Chrom holds the sword in the regular grip). Chrom outright has two different moves from Roy, an unique recovery (Soaring Slash) and Final Smash (Awakening Aether). Gameplay wise, the only echo that exceeds Chrom is Ken.
Ken is in a league all his own. He is closer to a semi-clone than the rest of the echo fighters, to the point where Sakurai mused to himself in a column that the only reason Ken is still considered an echo fighter despite all his differences is simply because “he said so”. Ken is faster than Ryu for both walk and run speed, has different properties for all of his specials, two unique Final Smashes, two unique command inputs, an unique held neutral attack, an unique held forward tilt, an unique forward Smash, unique neutral air, unique up air, and unique back throw. Ken is a semi-clone given the echo designation.
Now where does Dark Samus fit in this? She obviously has more differences to her than Daisy and Richter. However, she does not have any major gameplay differences to any of her moves like the rest of the echo fighters. However, this would do an absolutely disservice to just what makes Dark Samus stand out compared to the rest of the echo fighters, and that attribute being the large amount of unique animations that she possesses.
Dark Samus is an echo fighter, that possesses unique animation in places where many semi-clones do not have them. Dark Samus has the most unique animations of an echo fighter aside from possibly Ken. She possesses an unique onscreen debut animation (which is a subtle reference to a Japanese Prime 2 interview for how she managed to make herself to Aether). She also possesses an unique idle animation, as well as unique animations for all of her walk speeds and dash (the only echo that has this attribute). Dark Samus is also the only echo to possess unique jump animations, unique roll animations, an unique dodge animation, an unique perfect shield animation (which she makes a similar pose as her official Prime 3 artwork), and an unique turn around animation (notice how her body jerks around after you pivot after you are done dashing). Dark Samus also has unique animations for her Smashes (especially forward smash), and two of her specials (side special and neutral special). Dark Samus also has unique touches to her such as her arm cannon splitting apart for certain attacks (like her Smash forward and Final Smash), and even sprouting phazon tendrils. A lot of animation work was put into her.
Dark Samus is on another level in terms of animation differences. She probably had the most animation work put into her of all the echo fighters, and possibly on par with Ken. Heck, she has more unique animations than many of the clones (such as Dr. Mario, Young Link, and maybe Pichu). Unlike many semi-clones, Dark Samus possesses unique animations outside of attacks. Her non-gameplay animations (jumping, walk/run, dodge, idle) are all unique.
The uniqueness of her animations are enough to make her stand out as a character even though she is 95% similar to Samus gameplay wise. I must really commend the work the Ultimate team gave to Dark Samus in terms of animations. She might even have more than Ken. Dark Samus might be the most interesting echo fighter for this reason. In general, the echo fighter category is one that has a lot of flexibility, thus you see fighters like Richter who might as well be an alternate costume to Ken who is practically a semi-clone.
Dark Samus falls somewhere in between. She stands out more than Richter and Daisy and probably Dark Pit, but she does not have the gameplay differences Lucina, Chrom, and Ken have. However, Dark Samus is peculiar in that her animation differences are vast and more extensive than most of the echo lineup with the only possible exception of Ken. Differences for walk/run, dodge, roll, and jumping are not even typically found among the regular type of clones.
The development team gave Dark Samus a lot of love for an echo fighter. It was not simply a lazy addition. The only additional things I would have asked for while still being true to being a typical echo fighter were if she had actual gameplay differences for two of her specials, as well as her haunting cackle as one of her taunts. A track rip of her boss fight theme from Prime 2 or Prime 3 would also have been nice.
Dark Samus’s addition helped make the Metroid series “complete” in terms of playable representation. I remember back in 2008 thinking Dark Samus no longer had a decent shot of being a part of the roster since her time in the Metroid series was likely over. I never personally desired Dark Samus because I was entirely focused on Ridley getting in. However, I remember thinking back when playing Prime 2 what a cool character she was despite having an unoriginal name.
However, I remember back in the day just saying Dark Samus had no place getting in before Ridley. The thing is I remember wishing Metroid was just Samus, Ridley, and Dark Samus, but the inclusion of Zero Suit Samus meant that only one of the latter two would make it into Brawl, and once Brawl was released, it seemed like Dark Samus was shut out forever.
Seeing her on the roster, also made me remember an idea I wrote a decade ago about how clones could give characters that or minor or no longer relevant in their franchises a chance to be on the roster. The specific example I used was Vaati, who was the villain of sub-series of three games in the Zelda series much like Dark Samus is within the Metroid franchise.
The reception about Dark Samus’s moveset echoes (heh) a lot of the same sentiment that I heard when Ganondorf was a clone in Melee. However, unlike Ganondorf, there was not going to be a possible later date for her possible inclusion. Dark Samus was on the verge of being forgotten, and once Prime 4 releases, Sylux would be seen as a much higher priority for inclusion.
The next game in the Super Smash Bros. series is likely going to purge much of Ultimate’s roster unfortunately, and likely at the top of the list for cuts are clones and characters that are no longer relevant within their own franchises, a quality that Dark Samus has both of.
I do hope that Dark Samus does someday have a moveset that incoporates much of her own unique abilities, but it is a flat out miracle that Dark Samus even managed to make it into the roster as an echo fighter, and for her to get special treatment as an echo fighter.
My hope is that Sakurai and his team do at least give some more gameplay differences to the echo fighters before all development and work on Ultimate is completely wrapped up. Even slightly tweaked properties for specials would go a long way.
However, I am just thankful Dark Samus managed to make the roster at all, and was one of many pleasant surprises that Ultimate had for me personally. Dark Samus is a very underrated character in general and probably one of Nintendo’s best villains, and I always thought the Prime series deserved more content in Smash Bros.
I hope this post highlights not just how miraculous it was that Dark Samus made it onto the roster, but also that there was quite a bit of work put into her despite being an echo fighter. I think the amount of unique animations she has is very much overlooked.
I don’t know what measures can be taken to make sure she survives a large contraction of the roster, but hopefully if she does she also manages to be worked into having the unique abilities she displayed in the Prime games.
However, what Dark Samus is and mean is very important. It shows a character can still make the roster even when nearly all hope seems lost, that its still possible to be included even if you do not have a large and loud fanbase or have a lot of prominence.
Dark Samus was finished as a character in her own franchise for over a decade by the time Ultimate was released. She never managed to come from underneath the shadow Ridley cast over her, and her best poll results after Brawl’s release were usually within the lower end of the Top 20. Lots of characters overshadowed her for movements. Yet somehow, Dark Samus managed to make it in despite breaking all the conventional beliefs about what it takes to be included in Smash. She was old news, not a Smash Bubble rockstar, hailed from a smaller franchise, and for her category of fighter (echo) there were lots of candidates that were much more recognizable than her.
Yet despite all the odds, Dark Samus manged to be selected as one of Ultimate’s five echoes. It is a testament to fans of ALL characters that hope can still exist for your character of choice, even if the situation looks conventionally extremely dire.
I apologize for this essay being quite a bit longer than planned. However, I hope it does help those who feel disappointed with how Dark Samus turned out gain a new perspective about her inclusion. Her inclusion on the roster is simply miraculous, and arguably the most miraculous one of them all.
I do appreciate the work the team put into her all her animations to help her feel more like Dark Samus. I think personally that succeeded. She is one echo were the animations alone are enough reason to try out the character, and that might actually make her interesting as an echo.
The inclusion of Dark Samus onto Ultimate’s roster is a story of hope to all character hopes out there. The deck was stacked against her and she was essentially a relic from the pre-Brawl days.
Dark Samus was a character whose prominence in her series was over for over a decade. Also, she was not a request superstar (though I surmise she did well enough on the ballot to catch Sakurai’s attention for a possible echo candidate). Metroid itself also got its “quota” in already having a newcomer with Ridley finally being added. According to conventional belief and speculation ideals, Dark Samus seemed doomed to never ever make it into Smash Bros.
However, as has been said in regards to Ultimate as a whole, the possible was made possible in regards to it happening. While Dark Samus is an echo fighter, the team certainly did what they can to distinguish her from Samus while having to devote little if any additional balancing time and effort to her as a separate entity.
Moreover, her inclusion in Ultimate means she gets her own piece of merchandise. By comparison, Daisy and Chrom both had received amiibos prior to their inclusion of Smash. The amiibo of Dark Samus will probably be the only piece of merchandise this character ever will receive (same with many other characters on Ultimate’s roster).
I strongly urge everyone who read this piece to try out Dark Samus again and observe all the different animations I listed to see just how much work the team put into her, especially relative to other echoes. She was a great addition on the roster, and while not perfect, I applaud Sakurai and his team for implementing her.
Dark Samus was never a character that I asked for. For me personally, she never registered as a character desire because Ridley was my single most wanted newcomer. There was a period where I thought of Dark Samus being a newcomer alongside Ridley for Smash 3 from early 2005 to mid 2006, but the moment Zero Suit Samus was announced, I felt it was either going to be Ridley or Dark Samus going forward, and I wanted Ridley by far. I was agreeing she would make a great choice for the roster, but felt Ridley needed to be there first. However, my dream was that both Ridley and Dark Samus would make a Smash roster together, but felt it was unlikely to happen ever happen.
However, Dark Samus somehow ended up joining the battle. To me even her presence on the roster is still surreal even over a year later. Her inclusion story I felt was unsung in comparison to many other newcomers that have made it into Ultimate, and I hope this essay shows not only how miraculous it was but also that there was quite a bit of work put into her inclusion as an echo fighter.
Thank you for your time in reading this piece.
As for Dixie Kong as an echo fighter, Dixie Kong is characterized by her prehensile hair (specifically being able to use it to fly and attack enemies). I am sure Sakurai and the development team are aware of this as well. A Dark Samus style echo (an echo fighter characterized by a wide assortment of animation differences) would not fit Dixie Kong at all, because it is her abilities that distinguish her from Diddy. She has a similar body to Diddy, but ultimately she is iconic for using her hair to fly and attack. The only type of echo where you could somewhat be true to Dixie is what Chrom had (unique recovery, Final Smash, and some animation tweaks). However, if you wanted to be true to her, she would probably have to be what Ken is, a semi-clone given simply the designation of an echo fighter (of which Sakurai said the main reason Ken is still considered an echo fighter is because "he said so").
Oh, I already read it in the Newcomer Speculation Thread. I respect your appreciation of Dark Samus and I alluded, in my original post, that I knew Dark Samus' inclusion was miraculous. I just disagree ultimately, but I don't want to knock anyone who likes Dark Samus as is or anything.
At least you agree that Dixie shouldn't receive the Dark Samus treatment if they're going to give her the Echo Fighter status if it comes to that. Ken-style is ideal but I dunno how realistic that is.
Your contributions are appreciated. They usually sum up large sets of observations and data that are crucial to understanding the situation of various characters and series, which can be overlooked or not given much thought to.
I don't know why you think that. But I have this strong feeling that sprit promotions are becoming the norm after the fighter pass. Except Resident Evil because of the implications of getting spirit'd post launch.
We might get Rex, Bandana Dee, Dixie, Isaac... Geno is not more special than any other character. He has a big fan demand but that doesn't mean other characters don't.
And I'm fully hoping we get more not-Fire Emblem-or-Pokémon 1st parties, they all fit in the game and are strongly associated to Nintendo fans more than promoting an external franchise. There is a reason Banjo and Kazooie are the most hyped reveal yet.
I don't know why you think that. But I have this strong feeling that sprit promotions are becoming the norm after the fighter pass. Except Resident Evil because of the implications of getting spirit'd post launch.
We might get Rex, Bandana Dee, Dixie, Isaac... Geno is not more special than any other character. He has a big fan demand but that doesn't mean other characters don't.
And I'm fully hoping we get more not-Fire Emblem-or-Pokémon 1st parties, they all fit in the game and are strongly associated to Nintendo fans more than promoting an external franchise. There is a reason Banjo and Kazooie are the most hyped reveal yet.
Geno seems to be a character that Sakurai personally wants. He apparently tried to get him in since Brawl, and with Square having content now this is Sakurai's best chance to make it happen.
Number 4. So close to Top 3. But I will let it pass because of all the nice things Jon said about her. Also, he gave me more material to annoy him with Kiddy so that's fair.
Geno seems to be a character that Sakurai personally wants. He apparently tried to get him in since Brawl, and with Square having content now this is Sakurai's best chance to make it happen.
I know about Geno's story in the Smash community but that doesn't mean he would get special treatment and be the only spirit upgrade. If I we go to things Sakurai personally wants. He has talked about how much he loves Xenoblade 2.
But as someone who has been following leakers, suddenly everything became so ridiculous that I don't know how the man thinks. All our predictions and rules are futile.
I like how they emphasized she would not work as an echo well. #4 out of a hundred aint bad! This video is putting respect on Dixie's name and getting her name/appeal out their thank you @GameXplain
Also Pauline #1? Eh I LOVE Pauline she is one of my favorite DK/Mario characters but I never pictured her as a Smash fighter. Least not yet. But if it gives us that sweet sweet Pauline amiibo Im down regardless.
Also really happy Medusa, Twintelle, and Impa were ranked fairly high as well. Krystal top 25 (I think) is pretty good too. Also I'd be down for Anna, Lyn, and Eldegard even though the FE haters would come out the woodwork. Shame Captain Syrup didnt rank as high as I wanted but at least she made the list.
Super-long post there ChronoBound
! Sorry in advance, but maybe for convenience's sake, you could put your replies inside a spoiler-tag? Scrolling through this page's getting bit long on mobile.
We unfortunately live in an era where Smash is all about anime swords and surprise reveals; this is no longer the "Nintendo's All-Stars duke it out!" that I grew up with... I almost feel like my game is being invaded by people who just want to boost the popularity of their character, but Sakruai has now made it clear that Smash is just a celebration of gaming (which I wish they just kept it primarily Nintendo with characters who actually fit like Sonic, Pac-Man, Mega Man, etc.)
This is sadly the generation we live in:
Sans Mii costume: internet screams
Dixie Kong is a playable fighter: crickets
Now you know why I didn't even bother celebrating Goemon receiving his Mii Costume - at least enthusiastically, that is.
It does say a lot when I feel his acknowledgement in Smash is feeling more of an expendable side gig thrown for minority that Konami's probably forgotten otherwise by that point since putting Goemon to the pachinko-related bus.
I was just playing Crash Team Racing Nitro-Fueled. God DAMN did they do a good job with the roster. Every character had some notable role throughout the series, even Fake Crash who was made to mock a knockoff toy, was a boss in a handheld game; the only 2 that break this rule are Baby Crash and Coco, but still with all the love Beenox showed the entire series, even from games I can't stand (Pasadena, Von Clutch and soon Rilla Roo), I love the whole roster.
Why can't Nintendo be this appreciative of their own racers!? If they cared about interesting racers as much as Beenox (who didn't even create these characters), we'd have Fawful, Pauline, Cackletta, Princess Shroob, Mona, Crygor, Syrup, K. Rool and Dixie in Mario Kart so fast it wouldn't be funny. Like seriously I hope Nintendo starts feeling the need to stop making billions of baby versions and random enemies their go-to extras.
To me it might be apathetic indifferent to these characters and the teams or companies that make them, while also trying to adhere on the general feeling of making Mario's cast as malleable and appealing to as many kinds of demographics as possible, unlike Beenox that clearly is pushing towards the Crash's fanbase as a whole, who fall more on the veteran/hardcore gamer crowd from the 90s and later.
It's one of those baffling, yet not exactly challenged-against practices of modern Nintendo with their handling of Mario Kart towards it's trademark widespread crowd, explaining on why they'd emphasize on creating all these clones of their iconic characters towards the mainstreams of casual gamers and non-gamers. This also lets them to keep the fan-favorites hoarded as selling points for next installment, or even in full-price re-releases ala Deluxe. Remember when Waluigi was thrown out from MK7 and we got Honey Queen instead? Or how we had to buy MK8 twice just to play as King Boo among other fan-faves and have a proper Battle Mode? And now you got to gamble up your income just to play Diddy Kong in a Mario Kart again.
Seeing also how babies and costume clones are most likely easier to develop than original characters, I can't see why Nintendo wouldn't keep on doing something like this.
Like you said, it's a huge, crying shame. Mario Kart already has such wide-spread appeal that at times rivals, if not even outdoes Smash at times - at least in the casual gaming market. So it's quite upsetting how Nintendo doesn't attempt to explore it as a platform to conjoin the entire "Marioverse" for one huge celebration, especially for the series that tend to live outside of it - just imagine the beautiful and imaginative tracks based on these spinoffs, and possibilities for people to get into them due such appealing "party game" entry-point that has worked so well for Smash for all these years. I feel it'd allow these spinoffs to co-exist better together and really show how just exciting and vast Mario-verse can really be. Alas, now we just HAPPEN to be down the count with more than one of them.
It's why I keep coming back to Double Dash, mainly due feeling most varied, yet well-balanced in Mario-related fanservice - and you can mix and match between characters as you please. I still remember fondly of using Diddy Kong and Yoshi together back in my younger days of playing the game at cousins' - And we had likes of King Boo, Petey Piranha and the Wario Car. Gonna miss that thing. On that end, there's MKWii, which, while really pushing the "baby"-envelope, brought us some unexpected fan-favorites in everyone's favorite, Bodacious Dreamboat. And some new ones too with Dry Bowser.
Of course, the irony still is how Mario Kart 8's DLC + Deluxe decided to just take the Smash Bros-route instead regarding most of Nintendo EAD-developed IPs, which kind of has veered on cross-pollution when put next to Smash - which has made Mario Kart now resemble more this pseudo-"Nintendo Kart" thing some folk wanted Mario Kart to go towards to. Oh well, at least we have Mario Tennis Aces to come rather close to what Beenox have been doing, sans the RPG-spinoffs and WarioWare.
It deeply gratifying how Beenox at least keeps on pushing themselves on their own on giving us something rarely seen today when it comes to non-mobile based fanservice in long-running series - even the tracks have made me wish Mario Kart tried to make the ones named after characters stand out a bit more (like Mount Wario having some Wario Land-throwbacks ala Wario's Shipyard).
I wonder if it's because Beenox's team know that if anyone could do it, they can, so they're going all their way to push this much passion just to please fans in the best way possible and give them something they'll probably never get to see happen again in the future.
Not to mention how there'll be more than plenty of people sharing same feelings with you regarding characters they believe are as important missing piece as Dixie Kong is.
I personally have been moving on to other things by now for other types of exciting venues while exploring own concepts to discover similar types of excitement - hence my general absence from Smashboards and even playing Ultimate at times. I can only tolerate the sub-par online so many times when playing alone.
Pauline as #1 on a list of 100 characters does seem pretty odd to me. Nothing against Pauline but I couldn't even begin to imagine what she would do in Smash. Maybe using elements from the Donkey Kong arcade game?
Pauline as #1 on a list of 100 characters does seem pretty odd to me. Nothing against Pauline but I couldn't even begin to imagine what she would do in Smash. Maybe using elements from the Donkey Kong arcade game?
Pauline as #1 on a list of 100 characters does seem pretty odd to me. Nothing against Pauline but I couldn't even begin to imagine what she would do in Smash. Maybe using elements from the Donkey Kong arcade game?
I mean I'd say the same for Rosalina but they found a way to incorporate Galaxy moves into her moveset since Mario is mostly stuck with his classic moves and FLUDD. They could probably put some Odyssey stuff for Pauline, characters like Captain Falcon had their entire movesets pulled out of thin air so I'm sure they could find something for her if they could find something for Wii Fit Trainer, R.O.B., and a Plant.
I was happy to see my gal Tron Bonne in the list and ranked at 20 which made me really happy. I was a little upset that Krystal was ranked at 38 since I think if not the top 10 she should at least be in the top 20.
Number 4. So close to Top 3. But I will let it pass because of all the nice things Jon said about her. Also, he gave me more material to annoy him with Kiddy so that's fair.
I know about Geno's story in the Smash community but that doesn't mean he would get special treatment and be the only spirit upgrade. If I we go to things Sakurai personally wants. He has talked about how much he loves Xenoblade 2.
But as someone who has been following leakers, suddenly everything became so ridiculous that I don't know how the man thinks. All our predictions and rules are futile.
All of Ultimate's newcomers basically drilled into my head that we shouldn't try to predict Sakurai. Piranha Plant was what sealed the deal for me; speculation's kinda pointless since he'll keep shattering what we think are traditional rules and probably laughing his butt off at our WTF's.
As for Geno, I'm just confident Sakurai is gonna give the fight to acquire him his best shot, so yea I did just say speculation is kinda pointless, but I won't be surprised if Geno gets in. IDK about him being the only Spirit upgrade though. That's a different story.
It's great to see Dixie sitting at #4 but she definitely deserves to be #1 on that list. Plus nice seeing Impa, Medusa, Gruntilda and Krystal within the top 40 though Capt. Syrup should have been higher than #75. Marina Liteyears is definitely missing from that list.
