Discussion of Stage Legality in Smash Bros. Ultimate

[Untouch]

The mindgames thing is why I think if we are going for a 3-2-1 system it should actually be 5-2-1 system instead, it makes it harder to do that.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

At the risk of diverting the current subject of conversation, I came across a weird video clip that shows Sonic taking DOT while in the water of Great Bay.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkkgAnMLFHw&feature=youtu.be&t=1020

It wouldn't surprise me if Inklings got a similar mechanic. But how would this affect the (potential) legality of any stage with water? (Off the top of my head: Delfino Plaza, Tortimer Island, Pirate Ship, Great Bay) The exact DOT seems to be roughly 1% per second total, spread out over a few ticks.

 

[Luigifan18]

At the risk of diverting the current subject of conversation, I came across a weird video clip that shows Sonic taking DOT while in the water of Great Bay.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkkgAnMLFHw&feature=youtu.be&t=1020

It wouldn't surprise me if Inklings got a similar mechanic. But how would this affect the (potential) legality of any stage with water? (Off the top of my head: Delfino Plaza, Tortimer Island, Pirate Ship, Great Bay) The exact DOT seems to be roughly 1% per second total, spread out over a few ticks.

I actually wouldn't be surprised if it happens to everyone, in order to discourage stalling by staying in water and jumping every so often to reset the drowning timer. (As well as pretty much every stage with water having something to punish being there forever and/or properly open up the blast lines — sharks at Tortimer Island, the cyclone on Pirate Ship, the touring platform taking off at Delfino Plaza and Wuhu Island, the current at Jungle Japes, the fish at Summit, etc.)

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I actually wouldn't be surprised if it happens to everyone, in order to discourage stalling by staying in water and jumping every so often to reset the drowning timer. (As well as pretty much every stage with water having something to punish being there forever and/or properly open up the blast lines — sharks at Tortimer Island, the cyclone on Pirate Ship, the touring platform taking off at Delfino Plaza and Wuhu Island, the current at Jungle Japes, the fish at Summit, etc.)

I don't think anyone took damage from being in the water during the Spanish invitational, though, and they had matches on Pirate Ship and Tortimer Island. But none of them were using Sonic.

Filing this one under "investigate." It's getting to be a big file.

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

I know donkey kong didn't take damage while in the water. And the reports of it happening are for very specific characters. Sonic, Incineroar, and Charizard. All which makes sense for them.

 

[IvanQuote]

Does Hannenbow’s “water” function as swimmable? I’d doubt it, but just wondering give the new state of Great Bay.

Also would this DOT thing be a mark against legality for stages with water (let’s say Delfino since that has the least problems that I can think of)? I know water is a bit touchy already, but is the selective DOT significant?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Does Hannenbow’s “water” function as swimmable? I’d doubt it, but just wondering give the new state of Great Bay.

Also would this DOT thing be a mark against legality for stages with water (let’s say Delfino since that has the least problems that I can think of)? I know water is a bit touchy already, but is the selective DOT significant?

AFAIK the primary concern with water (that I have yet to see played out in a real match but I digress) is that a character can use it to somehow camp while away from the stage. A DOT while in the water would attach a fairly significant penalty to this tactic, which would neatly solve the problem. However, if it only applies to specific characters (Sonic, Fire type Pokemon, possibly Inklings) then that's a slightly different kettle of fish. On the one hand, it's a clear cut stage property that can be used to inform a counterpick decision. On the other hand, I can't think of any other stage element in the series that's so selective with who it does and does not affect.

 

[Raijinken]

Was Water killing non-blue Pikmin ever considered a relevant factor?

Either way, permanent water is comparable to a permanent floor (damaging or otherwise) in my mind, as it significantly changes offstage play. Good bad or otherwise.

 

[ShneeOscar]

On the other hand, I can't think of any other stage element in the series that's so selective with who it does and does not affect.

On the 3DS version of Find Mii, characters could get an attack bonus based on what colour they were. No idea if this is still a thing in the Ultimate version, and if it is it is likely disabled by the Hazzard Toggle.

 

[Untouch]

On the 3DS version of Find Mii, characters could get an attack bonus based on what colour they were. No idea if this is still a thing in the Ultimate version, and if it is it is likely disabled by the Hazzard Toggle.

That's likely disabled, but the huge gap in the middle may be an issue.

 

[Raijinken]

On the 3DS version of Find Mii, characters could get an attack bonus based on what colour they were. No idea if this is still a thing in the Ultimate version, and if it is it is likely disabled by the Hazzard Toggle.

Might be a little picky here, but while the hazard would not necessarily affect all characters simultaneously, all characters were able to be affected. If water only damages/has unique interactions (see my Pikmin statement above) for a few characters, a somewhat different review is needed, namely, if that unique advantage/disadvantage is substantially different from any regular advantage/disadvantage characters may have on the same or similar stages without said unique interactions.

 

[Narr]

I just can't get behind hazard toggle being on for YS/FoD/Smashville, it feels like the only argument anyone has against it is that players are too stupid and are incapable of going back and changing a setting, which would be rough at first, yeah, but people will get used to it, and we get 3 more unique stage layouts as a result of trusting our community.

 

[Beatrice]

If they are unique interactions, I think TOs/community will need to make a value judgement on whether we prefer to keep these stages (which may otherwise be legit) at the detriment of the affected characters or if we think the cost to those characters is too great. Players' ability to mitigate through stage bans will be an important factor which would probably then lead to another discussion on whether it's fair that certain characters are "forced" into particular bans every game. To be honest, it seems like a fairly small issue. Being in the water on most stages is already usually a disadvantaged state, and I don't think it's particularly burdensome to players of affected characters to have to consider those stages in deciding what they want to ban.

 

[MysticKnives]

I just can't get behind hazard toggle being on for YS/FoD/Smashville, it feels like the only argument anyone has against it is that players are too stupid and are incapable of going back and changing a setting, which would be rough at first, yeah, but people will get used to it, and we get 3 more unique stage layouts as a result of trusting our community.

3 more? I thought it was around 4-6. Arena Ferox, Brinstar, WarioWare, Castle Siege, Kalos League, and Frigate Orpheon

 

[Narr]

3 more? I thought it was around 4-6. Arena Ferox, Brinstar, WarioWare, Castle Siege, Kalos League, and Frigate Orpheon

I'm saying that if we trust our community to be able to tick a menu option, we get 3 more unique stage layouts: Yoshi's Story, Fountain of Dreams, and Smashville.

 

[Beatrice]

I just can't get behind hazard toggle being on for YS/FoD/Smashville, it feels like the only argument anyone has against it is that players are too stupid and are incapable of going back and changing a setting, which would be rough at first, yeah, but people will get used to it, and we get 3 more unique stage layouts as a result of trusting our community.

The issue is more about the administrative issues of running a tournament and making sure it goes smoothly. Having a streamlined ruleset is useful because it better ensures that hiccups don't happen that slow down the tournament. When you have a tournament with hundreds of people, it doesn't take a lot to go wrong to cause significant delays.

 

[Narr]

The issue is more about the administrative issues of running a tournament and making sure it goes smoothly. Having a streamlined ruleset is useful because it better ensures that hiccups don't happen that slow down the tournament. When you have a tournament with hundreds of people, it doesn't take a lot to go wrong to cause significant delays.

I'm familiar with the potential logistical issues. I'm saying that we may have some hiccups at first, but we can get over them and improve the overall player experience. Randall/Smashville platform shenanigans would be great for viewership, too.

 

[Munomario777]

TFW folks in the read-only ruleset talk thread are seriously talking about going 100% hazards on

 

[Untouch]

If Pokemon Stadium and WarioWare can't be picked because some people stubbornly refuse to move on from Smashville I cannot see most of the community taking it well at all.

 

[Munomario777]

edit: replaced w/ image version

 

[ParanoidDrone]

TFW folks in the read-only ruleset talk thread are seriously talking about going 100% hazards on

All I see is one guy saying he thinks we shouldn't be switching back and forth on a per-stage basis, whichever way we end up going (which is reasonable) and another saying they heard stuff about testing stages with hazards on which...okay, I guess, but I honestly don't expect that to go anywhere in a hurry. Hazards off seems objectively superior when considering the stage list as a whole.

 

[ぱみゅ]

The more I think about this, the more I think this entire discussion is very dishonest.

Why are we discussing stages? What does it matter if 15-20 stages are perfectly viable for competition?
By next year the entire community will be playing on the same set of 5-6, so why are we bothering with this?
I love the variety and viability offered this time around, but history isn't kind on the subject and I don't have any hope for the future of said variety.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

The more I think about this, the more I think this entire discussion is very dishonest.

Why are we discussing stages? What does it matter if 15-20 stages are perfectly viable for competition?
By next year the entire community will be playing on the same set of 5-6, so why are we bothering with this?
I love the variety and viability offered this time around, but history isn't kind on the subject and I don't have any hope for the future of said variety.

Because it's fun to speculate and/or experiment early in the meta-game.

 

[DJ3DS]

The more I think about this, the more I think this entire discussion is very dishonest.

Why are we discussing stages? What does it matter if 15-20 stages are perfectly viable for competition?
By next year the entire community will be playing on the same set of 5-6, so why are we bothering with this?
I love the variety and viability offered this time around, but history isn't kind on the subject and I don't have any hope for the future of said variety.

Because we don't want to keep playing on the same set of 5 or 6?

Some of us are sick of the tiny pool of stages and want to push for a wider variety of more interesting stages. I don't watch Smash 4 competitively because I can't stand the stagelist anymore, and when I play it I always ban SV and TC purely because of how tired of them I am. I don't want a reality where we end up being forced to play at least one of them a set anymore.

 

[Lozjam]

The more I think about this, the more I think this entire discussion is very dishonest.

Why are we discussing stages? What does it matter if 15-20 stages are perfectly viable for competition?
By next year the entire community will be playing on the same set of 5-6, so why are we bothering with this?
I love the variety and viability offered this time around, but history isn't kind on the subject and I don't have any hope for the future of said variety.

I think the point is to change history, really.
And the fact that stages never get “unbanned” so we may as well include as many stages as possible for the early metagame.

I myself would just be happy with 20 good stages, and that’s not much to ask for considering that at the very least, 30 stages are (easily) competitively viable.

 

[Narr]

The more I think about this, the more I think this entire discussion is very dishonest.

Why are we discussing stages? What does it matter if 15-20 stages are perfectly viable for competition?
By next year the entire community will be playing on the same set of 5-6, so why are we bothering with this?
I love the variety and viability offered this time around, but history isn't kind on the subject and I don't have any hope for the future of said variety.

we've never had this many viable stages before, closest was PM which has what, 11 stages? we could easily see something in that range for ultimate. we all have our own opinions on the stage list and feel strongly about it, and we're discussing it because we genuinely care. sure, it's possible some are only paying lip service to the idea of a larger, more diverse stagelist, but i'm not, and i don't believe most of the people in this thread are. take your nihilism somewhere else.

 

[Frihetsanka]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1e9G9jlUrx3G8TNlwr7LeD118P5O9R_GggUJi4YLqHRc/edit

Some notable recommendations: For the first game, you select your characters before the stage (double blind if either player wants it). Then it's stage striking with 5 starters, and after that the winner strikes two stages and the loser picks a stage. A player may not pick the last stage they last won on.

3 stocks 8 minutes.

Starter Stages

• Battlefield
• Final Destination
• Pokemon Stadium 1
• Smashville
• Town & City

Counterpick Stages

• Dream Land
• Yoshi’s Story
• Fountain of Dreams
• WarioWare, Inc. (Hazard off)
• Yoshi’s Island
• Lylat Cruise

Overall, I quite like this ruleset. However, I don't like that only WarioWare is Hazard Off, all of them should be, in my opinion (and Dream Land should probably be replaced with some other stage). I could see 6 or 7 minutes being better than 8 minutes as well, but we'll see.

 

[Munomario777]

The more I think about this, the more I think this entire discussion is very dishonest.

Why are we discussing stages? What does it matter if 15-20 stages are perfectly viable for competition?
By next year the entire community will be playing on the same set of 5-6, so why are we bothering with this?
I love the variety and viability offered this time around, but history isn't kind on the subject and I don't have any hope for the future of said variety.

Because if the system gets changed, then that trend can change

As Amazing Ampharos and others have done an awesome job arguing for in this thread already, shrinking in stage lists over time is largely a result of counterpicks, as well as the striking system.

The starter-counterpick divide means that stages are played less often, and that it's optimal to ignore counterpicks. To paraphrase Ampharos, if your strategy wins on starter stages, you win 2-1. If your strategy works on counterpick stages, you lose 1-2. counterpick divide = certain stages are optimal to avoid

The current way striking works means that if you want to avoid a particular stage like the plague, you can always do that, with no exceptions. See Lylat in Smash 4, where almost everyone bans it (which happens even WITHOUT a counterpick) striking = you can always avoid a stage if you want to

The result of these two systems working together is that players will be inclined to avoid counterpick stages over time, and they will fall out of use and eventually out of rulesets. This has happened without fail in past games. With a system which ignores both of these systems completely, this trend can change

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1e9G9jlUrx3G8TNlwr7LeD118P5O9R_GggUJi4YLqHRc/edit

this ruleset makes me sad

 

[Untouch]

So the 3-2-1 system is just going to be ignored or something?
The community seemed to like it... why is it being ignored? TOs are the ones who came up with the idea in the first place so this isn't even a matter of ignoring the community...

 

[Narr]

what does everyone think of stages with permanent walls? brinstar and rainbow cruise are the ones people have been floating around as viable, but i'm not so sure; i think they'll need significant labbing to see if degenerate strategies are possible on them

 

[Munomario777]

So the 3-2-1 system is just going to be ignored or something?
The community seemed to like it... why is it being ignored? TOs are the ones who came up with the idea in the first place so this isn't even a matter of ignoring the community...

3-2-1 is a decent idea. I like it and "3-1" a lot. A big concern of mine, though, is finding a solution for game one, which 3-2-1 doesn't really offer.

 

[Frihetsanka]

So the 3-2-1 system is just going to be ignored or something?
The community seemed to like it... why is it being ignored? TOs are the ones who came up with the idea in the first place so this isn't even a matter of ignoring the community...

If I were to guess, I'd say more people want regular striking and that people here are overrepresented when it comes to more "liberal" ideas. Weren't people here fairly pro-customs as well for Smash 4? Yet in the end we ended up with customs banned.

Seems there aren't any rules for Miis yet?

 

[Untouch]

what does everyone think of stages with permanent walls? brinstar and rainbow cruise are the ones people have been floating around as viable, but i'm not so sure; i think they'll need significant labbing to see if degenerate strategies are possible on them

Depends on how large they are, you can't chaingrab anymore so infinites are way less common. Rainbow Cruise may be an issue but Dracula's walls seem low enough that they won't be an issue.

Brinstar doesn't have any walls, that's Brinstar Depths which has major camping issues.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

edit: replaced w/ image version

View attachment 175978

Nice meme.



Here would be my ideal stagelist. Assume all have hazards off

Starter

Battlefield style stage (Pls be Midgar)
FD style stage (pls be Wily's)
Static two platform stage (Id love Unova but for real it might be too dark)
Town and City
Yoshi's/Smashville
Lylat
WarioWare

Counterpick

Castle Siege
Brinstar
Frigate Orpheon
Skyloft
Duck Hunt
Arena Ferox
Rainbow Cruise
Halberd
Delphino
New Donk
Prism Tower
Draculas Castle


I honestly feel that most of these stages are pretty solid. In my opinion, only a few need a real look. (Delphino, New Donk, Rainbow Cruise)

 

[Narr]

Depends on how large they are, you can't chaingrab anymore so infinites are way less common. Rainbow Cruise may be an issue but Dracula's walls seem low enough that they won't be an issue.

Brinstar doesn't have any walls, that's Brinstar Depths which has major camping issues.

yeah those things on brinstar are unbreakable so i thought they'd become walls, but i just checked and you can go right through em apparently so my b

 

[Raijinken]

what does everyone think of stages with permanent walls? brinstar and rainbow cruise are the ones people have been floating around as viable, but i'm not so sure; i think they'll need significant labbing to see if degenerate strategies are possible on them

A wall always creates some opportunity for techs to extend lives, but there's always tech-chasing for cases like that, regardless of the wall size. But of course, there needs to be a bit more testing in the new engine.
Personally, I don't mind, but I'm the guy who keeps my friends having to learn "unusual" stages.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

So this is going to be the stagelist and ruleset I'll be using for my smash ultimate tournament on Dec. 9th.

**Settings**
* 3 Stocks
* 8 Minutes
* Team Attack ON
* Items Off
* Smash Meter Off
* 2 out of 3 sets
* 3 out of 5 top 8 sets

**Picks and Bans**

1. At anytime before character selection a player may opt for a double blind pick
2. Before the first game each player will strike stages from the stater list in 1-3..3-1 order from the starter stage list until 1 stage remains.
3. The remaining stage will be used for the first game.
4. During the Counter Pick Phase the loser of the previous game lists 5 stages (If hazards on and are off are available for a stage must specify which).
5. Winner of the previous game accepts a character.
6. Winner of the previous game selects their character.
7. Loser of the previous game selects their character.
8. DSR (a player may not play on a stage they have previously won on)
9. Repeat steps 4. through 8. until the set is decided.

**Starters**
* Battle Field
* Final Destination
* Yoshi's Island (Melee)
* Fountain of Dreams
* Pokemon Stadium 1
* Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
* Halberd (Hazards Off)
* Pokemon Stadium 2 (Hazards Off)
* Castle Siege (Hazards Off)
* Smashville
* Town and City
* Wily Castle (Hazards Off)

**Counter Picks**
* Dreamland 64
* Rainbow Cruise
* Brinstar
* Delfino Plaza
* WarioWare Inc. (Hazards Off)
* Norfair (Hazards Off)
* Frigate Orpheon
* Halberd
* Lylat
* PictoChat (Hazards Off)
* Prism Tower
* Arena Ferox (Hazards Off)
* Duck Hunt
* New Donk City
* _Hazards maybe turned off for any stage as a counter pick._

**Additional Counter Picks for Doubles**
* Kongo Jungle
* Kongo Falls (Hazards Off)
* Arena Ferox
* Reset Bomb Forrest (Hazards Off)

_Rules Subject to change_

 

[MysticKnives]

All I see is one guy saying he thinks we shouldn't be switching back and forth on a per-stage basis, whichever way we end up going (which is reasonable) and another saying they heard stuff about testing stages with hazards on which...okay, I guess, but I honestly don't expect that to go anywhere in a hurry. Hazards off seems objectively superior when considering the stage list as a whole.

That’s how I saw it. I get some stages are less preferred with hazards off but with them off, more stages with more unique layouts

 

[Narr]

A wall always creates some opportunity for techs to extend lives, but there's always tech-chasing for cases like that, regardless of the wall size. But of course, there needs to be a bit more testing in the new engine.
Personally, I don't mind, but I'm the guy who keeps my friends having to learn "unusual" stages.

walls are a big problem in melee and with lower landing lag in ultimate i'd be worried about infinites

 

[MysticKnives]

Nice meme.



Here would be my ideal stagelist. Assume all have hazards off

Starter

Battlefield style stage (Pls be Midgar)
FD style stage (pls be Wily's)
Static two platform stage (Id love Unova but for real it might be too dark)
Town and City
Yoshi's/Smashville
Lylat
WarioWare

Counterpick

Castle Siege
Brinstar
Frigate Orpheon
Skyloft
Duck Hunt
Arena Ferox
Rainbow Cruise
Halberd
Delphino
New Donk
Prism Tower
Draculas Castle


I honestly feel that most of these stages are pretty solid. In my opinion, only a few need a real look. (Delphino, New Donk, Rainbow Cruise)

So with all the BF clones and everything you want Midgar as the one to represent BF? Just curious if that’s what you meant. Just curious about why no Kalos and why Delphino. Guess if Unova doesn’t work Stadium could be there. Overall fun and legit list