Discussion of Stage Legality in Smash Bros. Ultimate

Status
Not open for further replies.

ParanoidDrone

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 26, 2008
Messages
4,245
Location
Baton Rouge, LA
walls are a big problem in melee and with lower landing lag in ultimate i'd be worried about infinites
Ultimate's engine is nothing like Melee's, honestly. I don't think you can realistically compare the two. I know 4 had some sort of engine feature that neutered wall infinites in particular, and chaingrabs aren't a concern either because you're immune to regrabs for a second or two after getting thrown.
 

DeLux

@ChaseTheLux
Joined
Jun 3, 2010
Messages
9,279
Location
Long Beach, CA
So this is my updated list in light of the massive amount of new data:
-Windy Hill Zone, Big Blue, and Garden of Hope without hazards are still mysteries that have very plausible paths to legality depending on this behavior.
Big Blue should be legal even with hazards on ;)
 

Raijinken

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 8, 2013
Messages
4,417
Location
Durham, NC
3DS FC
0662-3016-5774
NNID
Raijinken0
walls are a big problem in melee and with lower landing lag in ultimate i'd be worried about infinites
That's basically my only concern. But with footstools being techable, regrab timer being a thing, and the various other engine differences in Ultimate, I'd still think it needs testing instead of being banned over a fear of possible infinites.
 

Munomario777

Smash Master
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Messages
3,245
Location
Charleston, South Carolina
3DS FC
0387-9596-4480
Switch FC
SW-8229-3157-8114
I wrote an analysis of stage selection methods, including a critical look at current striking methods and a proposed alternative which involves Stage Morphs.

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/..._striking_and_large_stage_lists_does_it_work/

I would post it directly to this thread, but A) I don't want to drop a giant wall of text and B) I originally wrote this for the markdown format used for reddit, not for bbcode formatting. :)
 

DeLux

@ChaseTheLux
Joined
Jun 3, 2010
Messages
9,279
Location
Long Beach, CA
I wrote an analysis of stage selection methods, including a critical look at current striking methods and a proposed alternative which involves Stage Morphs.

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/..._striking_and_large_stage_lists_does_it_work/

I would post it directly to this thread, but A) I don't want to drop a giant wall of text and B) I originally wrote this for the markdown format used for reddit, not for bbcode formatting. :)
It's an interesting enough proposal. On a functional level, it seems competitively sound. I have some suspicions that at logical extremes the stage morph function will deteriorate into avoiding conflict. One player will want to avoid conflict when the stage is disadvantageous to them and seek it when it is advantageous. Also might have issues with the stock format since a game is rarely ever exactly a certain time length where players will see equal play time on their specific stages selections. I know you try to address the criticisms in your post, but saying it isn't an issue because of interval length doesn't necessarily mean it's not going to be an issue.

Not saying it wouldn't work, but I'd be skeptical of it being objectively "good" for the game. We should test it imo
 
Last edited:

Munomario777

Smash Master
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Messages
3,245
Location
Charleston, South Carolina
3DS FC
0387-9596-4480
Switch FC
SW-8229-3157-8114
Yeah, the camping etc is definitely something that we'll have to test. I do think that frequent transitions have a good shot at mitigating that issue (for the reasons that I outlined in the post), but we don't have any real way to know right now ofc
 

Untouch

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 4, 2009
Messages
3,601
The walls in Dracula's Castle are about 3/4ths the size of Cloud, DIing should not be an issue, I think the stairs are way larger of an issue for the stage.
 

DeLux

@ChaseTheLux
Joined
Jun 3, 2010
Messages
9,279
Location
Long Beach, CA
Yeah, the camping etc is definitely something that we'll have to test. I do think that frequent transitions have a good shot at mitigating that issue (for the reasons that I outlined in the post), but we don't have any real way to know right now ofc
Could go Galaxy Brain and question if one player avoiding conflict is always not exciting to watch:

 

PoptartLord

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 13, 2015
Messages
54
This was from a few pages ago now, but there is a reason for purposely choosing a stage with a randomized layout - when your adaptability (ability to think on your feet) is greater than your opponent's.

A lot of players get lost in the paradigm of "play this way on this stage". After all, it's good to know what you can do on each stage. But there's this fine line between knowing how to play on (example) Battlefield versus how to play with multiple heights of platforms. By having a randomized stage layout you cannot fully know what the battleground will be beforehand. Any meticulously crafted and practiced stage specific plans go right out the window. You are no longer being tested on how well you play on a specific stage, but how well you understand and use the stage elements presented. I see these as potentially higher skill ceiling stages overall.

...except when the random layout is a single platform, that's pretty tame
 

Untouch

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 4, 2009
Messages
3,601
Big Blue might actually just be the ship with hazardless.
SSBU-Big_Blue[1].png

If this picture was taken while jumping over the gap, the ship would be titled, and since the ship tilts over time on the track, it may just spawn over the gap and not move. This picture was from a press release, so I don't know if it's cropped in such a way that you can't see the road or if the road is present and the cars just don't spawn.
Without the road, I can't actually see anything wrong with the stage, the platform is unorthodox but really not in a totally jank way.
 

ParanoidDrone

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 26, 2008
Messages
4,245
Location
Baton Rouge, LA
Big Blue might actually just be the ship with hazardless.
View attachment 176041

If this picture was taken while jumping over the gap, the ship would be titled, and since the ship tilts over time on the track, it may just spawn over the gap and not move. This picture was from a press release, so I don't know if it's cropped in such a way that you can't see the road or if the road is present and the cars just don't spawn.
Without the road, I can't actually see anything wrong with the stage, the platform is unorthodox but really not in a totally jank way.
After Rainbow Cruise ended up being just the boat, I'm cautiously optimistic.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jul 21, 2014
Messages
811
The nice thing is, even in a worst-case scenario, there's always an F-Zero Battlefield.
But yeah, I'm down for a legal Big Blue if the road is gone.
If Big Blue functions similarly to Rainbow Cruise in how the stages travel, I could very well see the hazardless stage just being on the Falcon Flyer.
 
Joined
Apr 26, 2016
Messages
1,566
Location
Sweden
https://smashboards.com/threads/smash-ultimate-ruleset-philosophy.456499/page-4#post-22679205

From the discussions and analyses done in the PGstats discord server the past days, we will probably end with a minimum of 8 stages and a maximum of 11

This assumes the settings will be pre-determined and not changed midset (hazards: off)

Starter:
Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville
Lylat Cruise
Pokemon Stadium 1/2

Counterpick:
Yoshis Island (Brawl)
Wario Ware, Inc.
Kalos Pokémon League
Sounds pretty good to me. Good variety of stages, no redundancy. You can still play other stages outside of tournaments anyway.
 

dav3yb

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 7, 2014
Messages
431
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1e9G9jlUrx3G8TNlwr7LeD118P5O9R_GggUJi4YLqHRc/edit

Some notable recommendations: For the first game, you select your characters before the stage (double blind if either player wants it). Then it's stage striking with 5 starters, and after that the winner strikes two stages and the loser picks a stage. A player may not pick the last stage they last won on.

3 stocks 8 minutes.

Starter Stages
  • Battlefield
  • Final Destination
  • Pokemon Stadium 1
  • Smashville
  • Town & City

Counterpick Stages
  • Dream Land
  • Yoshi’s Story
  • Fountain of Dreams
  • WarioWare, Inc. (Hazard off)
  • Yoshi’s Island
  • Lylat Cruise

Overall, I quite like this ruleset. However, I don't like that only WarioWare is Hazard Off, all of them should be, in my opinion (and Dream Land should probably be replaced with some other stage). I could see 6 or 7 minutes being better than 8 minutes as well, but we'll see.
So having 1 battlefield as starter and 3 as counterpick is fair?

There's also no real reason to go more than the standard 6 minutes right now, especially for 1v1
 

Raysebi

Smash Rookie
Joined
Sep 1, 2018
Messages
20
How disappointing x2, people banning stages already before the game came out. The castle siege argument has no logic for me

But oh well, i mades this list, or group of lists:


If people is too picky but decides to play in hazardless stages

-battlefield (fountain of dreams, dreamland, midgar and yoshi story)
-final destination
-Pokemon stadium(1 and 2)
-Kalos pokemon league
-Arena ferox
-Lylat
-yoshi island
-Wario Ware, Inc.
-smashville
-town and city
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If people for the sake of smashville don't want to play it hazardless

-battlefied
-final destination
-fountain of dreams
-yoshi story
-smashville
-town and city
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If people aren't too picky but still are a little

-battlefield (fountain of dreams, dreamland, midgar and yoshi story)
-final destination
-Pokemon stadium(1 and 2)
-Kalos pokemon league
-Arena ferox
-Lylat
-yoshi island
-castle siege
-brinstar
-frigate orpheon
-Wario Ware, Inc.
-smashville
-town and city
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If people began to be more open to almost all possible legal stage

-battlefield (fountain of dreams, dreamland, midgar and yoshi story)
-final destination
-Pokemon stadium(1 and 2)
-Kalos pokemon league
-Arena ferox
-Lylat
-yoshi island
-castle siege
-brinstar
-frigate orpheon
-Wario Ware, Inc.
-smashville
-town and city
-prism tower
-unova pokemon league
-skyloft
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If people began to be more open to all possible legal stage

-battlefield (fountain of dreams, dreamland, midgar and yoshi story)
-final destination
-Pokemon stadium(1 and 2)
-Kalos pokemon league
-Arena ferox
-Lylat
-yoshi island
-castle siege
-brinstar
-frigate orpheon
-smashville
-town and city
-Wario Ware, Inc.
-prism tower
-unova pokemon league
-skyloft
-halberd
-wuhu island
-dracula castle
 
Last edited:

Akiak

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 28, 2007
Messages
819
Location
In my secret laboratory.
I definitely agree with using lists rather than bans. Strongly mitigates the issue of having a large stagelist and is also very quick.

I think using RPS for the first match isn't a bad idea. Winner picks 2/3 stages, loser picks stage to play on. Obviously mutual agreement is also an option.

In subsequent matches loser picks 2 stages, winner picks stage to play on.


I'm pretty torn on the hazards issue, but I think there are some points which have to be emphasised.

Hazards On is actually a pretty appealing option, if only for the sake of simplicity. Battlefield and FD would allow all variations, since they're standardised, thus allowing for a great deal of variety in visuals and music.

Stage list would be something like: BF, FD, Dream Land, Smashville, Town & City, Yoshi's Brawl, Yoshi's Melee, FoD and Lylat (glitches are most likely fixed, and apparently the tilting isn't as pronounced). Pokémon Stadium 1 could be a counter pick, depends on a few things (you can check the smash wiki page to see why it was banned in Brawl). Yoshi's Brawl could be converted to counterpick imo.

Of course though there are a number of stage layouts we'd lose with this option: WarioWare, Skyloft, Arena Ferox, Pokémon Stadium, Frigate Orpheon, etc.


Someone I spoke to recently brought up preset rulesets, which I hadn't thought of. Basically we could have two presets set up which are identical, except one is hazards off and the other is hazards on. Then changing between the two might be less of a hassle (just go back to the previous menu and pick the option)? Thoughts on this?
 
Last edited:
Joined
Apr 26, 2016
Messages
1,566
Location
Sweden
So having 1 battlefield as starter and 3 as counterpick is fair?
I would probably replace Yoshi's Story, Fountain of Dreams and Dream Land with some other stages.

There's also no real reason to go more than the standard 6 minutes right now, especially for 1v1
We should start with 6 and increase to 7 or 8 if needed, in my opinion.
 

Munomario777

Smash Master
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Messages
3,245
Location
Charleston, South Carolina
3DS FC
0387-9596-4480
Switch FC
SW-8229-3157-8114
As a disclaimer, I should note:

The post made by Yikarur in the read-only thread doesn’t actually represent the PGStats discord! So don’t take it as any kind of final decision or etc

I joined it after that stage list was posted, and the list is nowhere near any kind of consensus. The discussion is still ongoing
 

ParanoidDrone

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 26, 2008
Messages
4,245
Location
Baton Rouge, LA
As a disclaimer, I should note:

The post made by Yikarur in the read-only thread doesn’t actually represent the PGStats discord! So don’t take it as any kind of final decision or etc

I joined it after that stage list was posted, and the list is nowhere near any kind of consensus. The discussion is still ongoing
Oh thank god.

I've gone on a mini-rant in several different places over the past 24 hours and I guess I can do it here too for posterity and something of a sanity check. Fair warning, it's mostly an appeal to emotion.

--- Rant: On ---

Over the past 4 years or so, we've collectively bemoaned the lack of competitively viable stages in Smash 4, especially relative to the total number of stages in that game. We facepalmed when Sakurai apparently bought into the "fox only no items final destination" meme when he decided For Glory would use Omega forms only. We all but begged for a hazard toggle so that we could play on stages like Kalos Pokemon League, Skyloft, or Castle Siege without dealing with their associated bull****.

We finally have one. It's not perfect, but it's a huge leap forward. And now a not-insignificant portion of people are reacting with "...actually, that's too many stages. Let's not take full advantage of this." Or, alternately, "...now that we have so many stages, let's be even more picky about what's allowable."

ARE YOU ****ING KIDDING ME?

The first reaction makes me think the Smash community is inconsistent and doesn't know what the hell it wants. The second reaction is just moving the goalposts. In either case, I have to ask:

What will it take to make you happy?

--- Rant: Off ---
 
Joined
Apr 26, 2016
Messages
1,566
Location
Sweden
Over the past 4 years or so, we've collectively bemoaned the lack of competitively viable stages in Smash 4, especially relative to the total number of stages in that game.
I'd say it's more like we wanted to replace some bad stages (like Smash 4 Lylat) with better stages, not that we necessarily wanted to play on 15+ stages. I never wanted 15+ stages. Even 10 would be double of what Smash 4 had near the end.
 

Narr

AN ORB OF MANY TALENTS
Joined
Feb 27, 2015
Messages
117
Location
Chicago, IL
3DS FC
1289-8310-9030
NNID
LordChrom
Switch FC
SW 8256 5756 1598
I'd say it's more like we wanted to replace some bad stages (like Smash 4 Lylat) with better stages, not that we necessarily wanted to play on 15+ stages. I never wanted 15+ stages. Even 10 would be double of what Smash 4 had near the end.
i'm sure that's what a lot of people thought but i'm also sure that a significant portion of people want a stagelist that's as big as possible. like a lot of folks in this thread.
 

Untouch

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 4, 2009
Messages
3,601
I don't agree with "obsoleting" some stages because they have a similar layout.
Wuhu and Smashville will not play the same.
Unova, Pokemon Stadium 1 and 2 (even 2 looks like the platforms are higher) and Kalos will not play the same.
This is why 3-2-1 was conceived, I do think they should be grouped but not ignored.

Melee has 4 battlefields that are all legal and it makes sense because the minor changes in the stages make a large difference in how the stages play.
Even something as minor the stage hovering or having walls is enough.
 
Last edited:

Narr

AN ORB OF MANY TALENTS
Joined
Feb 27, 2015
Messages
117
Location
Chicago, IL
3DS FC
1289-8310-9030
NNID
LordChrom
Switch FC
SW 8256 5756 1598
I don't agree with "obsoleting" some stages because they have a similar layout.
Wuhu and Smashville will not play the same.
Unova, Pokemon Stadium 1 and 2 (even 2 looks like the platforms are higher) and Kalos will not play the same.
This is why 3-2-1 was conceived, I do think they should be grouped but not ignored.
my current stagelist concept has the dual plat pokémon stages banned together with stadium 2 as the starter as it has the most medium-sized blast zones (in smash 4, anyways)

is wuhu still semisoft with hazard toggle?
 

Untouch

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 4, 2009
Messages
3,601
my current stagelist concept has the dual plat pokémon stages banned together with stadium 2 as the starter as it has the most medium-sized blast zones (in smash 4, anyways)

is wuhu still semisoft with hazard toggle?
Yes, skyloft, brinstar and wuhu have sharkable platforms (brinstar won't be an issue).
Testing and work will need to be done to see if this is enough of an issue to totally ban a stage. Whenever these stages were banned in older games there were different reasons. Delfino and Halberd have blastzone problems (that remain it seems). Yes, sharking was a major problem in brawl, but brawl metaknight doesn't exist anymore.

I don't like the argument that we can be "pickier" because we have more stages, more stages should force a change to how the ruleset works.
 
Last edited:

Narr

AN ORB OF MANY TALENTS
Joined
Feb 27, 2015
Messages
117
Location
Chicago, IL
3DS FC
1289-8310-9030
NNID
LordChrom
Switch FC
SW 8256 5756 1598
Yes, skyloft, brinstar and wuhu have sharkable platforms (brinstar won't be an issue).
Testing and work will need to be done to see if this is enough of an issue to totally ban a stage. Whenever these stages were banned in older games there were different reasons. Delfino and Halberd have blastzone problems (that remain it seems). Yes, sharking was a major problem in brawl, but brawl metaknight doesn't exist anymore.

I don't like the argument that we can be "pickier" because we have more stages, more stages should force a change to how the ruleset works.
i think it deserves testing, i was just curious if it was still semisoft. i am a little biased against it though because it makes me horribly motion sick
 
Joined
Apr 26, 2016
Messages
1,566
Location
Sweden
i'm sure that's what a lot of people thought but i'm also sure that a significant portion of people want a stagelist that's as big as possible. like a lot of folks in this thread.
Sure, I could see it being close to a 50/50 split even, though in the end, TOs seem to generally prefer a "smaller" (like 9-11) stage list.
 

Narr

AN ORB OF MANY TALENTS
Joined
Feb 27, 2015
Messages
117
Location
Chicago, IL
3DS FC
1289-8310-9030
NNID
LordChrom
Switch FC
SW 8256 5756 1598
Sure, I could see it being close to a 50/50 split even, though in the end, TOs seem to generally prefer a "smaller" (like 9-11) stage list.
yeah that's kinda where i'm at; 11-13 stages is my ideal, i want a manageable number with a good amount of stages. my current list (which i'll most likely be running online tournaments with unless labbing results in changes) has 12 stages (2 of which are singles-only) with 4 alternates and 3 doubles-only stages
 
Joined
Jul 21, 2014
Messages
811
How disappointing x2, people banning stages already before the game came out. The castle siege argument has no logic for me

But oh well, i mades this list, or group of lists:


If people is too picky but decides to play in hazardless stages

-battlefield (fountain of dreams, dreamland, midgar and yoshi story)
-final destination
-Pokemon stadium(1 and 2)
-Kalos pokemon league
-Arena ferox
-Lylat
-yoshi island
-Wario Ware, Inc.
-smashville
-town and city
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If people for the sake of smashville don't want to play it hazardless

-battlefied
-final destination
-fountain of dreams
-yoshi story
-smashville
-town and city
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If people aren't too picky but still are a little

-battlefield (fountain of dreams, dreamland, midgar and yoshi story)
-final destination
-Pokemon stadium(1 and 2)
-Kalos pokemon league
-Arena ferox
-Lylat
-yoshi island
-castle siege
-brinstar
-frigate orpheon
-Wario Ware, Inc.
-smashville
-town and city
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If people began to be more open to almost all possible legal stage

-battlefield (fountain of dreams, dreamland, midgar and yoshi story)
-final destination
-Pokemon stadium(1 and 2)
-Kalos pokemon league
-Arena ferox
-Lylat
-yoshi island
-castle siege
-brinstar
-frigate orpheon
-Wario Ware, Inc.
-smashville
-town and city
-prism tower
-unova pokemon league
-skyloft
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If people began to be more open to all possible legal stage

-battlefield (fountain of dreams, dreamland, midgar and yoshi story)
-final destination
-Pokemon stadium(1 and 2)
-Kalos pokemon league
-Arena ferox
-Lylat
-yoshi island
-castle siege
-brinstar
-frigate orpheon
-smashville
-town and city
-Wario Ware, Inc.
-prism tower
-unova pokemon league
-skyloft
-halberd
-wuhu island
-dracula castle
I like the second to last option the most
 

PK_Wonder

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 19, 2010
Messages
1,179
Can any other potential stages be combined into group due to clone or echo like groupings or clusters?


-New Donk City Hall
-WarioWare, Inc.
-Lylat Cruise
-Skyloft
-Castle Siege
-Arena Ferox
-Frigate Orpheon
-Wuhu Island
-Dracula’s Castle
etc.
 
Last edited:

Untouch

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 4, 2009
Messages
3,601
Can any other potential stages be combined into group due to clone or echo like groupings or clusters?


-New Donk City Hall
-WarioWare, Inc.
-Lylat Cruise
-Skyloft
-Castle Siege
-Arena Ferox
-Frigate Orpheon
-Wuhu Island
-Dracula’s Castle
etc.
If we're going with a 3-2-1 or 5-2-1 I don't think I'd be totally upset if stages with odder layouts were grouped into one category as well.
This'd be a hard sell though...
 

PK_Wonder

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 19, 2010
Messages
1,179
If we're going with a 3-2-1 or 5-2-1 I don't think I'd be totally upset if stages with odder layouts were grouped into one category as well.
This'd be a hard sell though...

So my community, including top local players, want me to start with a more liberal stage list for weeklies for the first couple months at least.

After speaking with them, I'm considering something like this (not final), ad am open to grouping the end of the list better if possible like I did the first four groups:

-(Hazards always off)

Spa City tourneys use the List Pick Format.

For all rounds:
-Loser (of previous game, or in r1, rock-paper-scissors) LISTS 3 stages from a list, the winner picks from those. Stages with “/” count as sharing the same group. You can only pick one stage per group and you must name the stage, not the group.


FLAT -Final Destination**/Umbra Clock Tower/Wily’s Castle
TRIPLATS -Battlefield*/Dream Land 64/Fountain of Dreams/Yoshi’s Story
BIPLATS -Pokemon Stadium/Pokemon Stadium 2/Unova Pokemon League
MONOPLATS -Smashville/Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
-New Donk City Hall
-WarioWare, Inc.
-Lylat Cruise
-Skyloft
-Castle Siege
-Arena Ferox
-Frigate Orpheon
-Wuhu Island
-Dracula’s Castle

*includes all Alphas, which are identical layout. If players cannot quickly mutually agree on one, standard Battlefield is chosen.
**includes all Omegas, which are identical layout. If players cannot quickly mutually agree on one, standard Final Destination is chosen.
 

ParanoidDrone

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 26, 2008
Messages
4,245
Location
Baton Rouge, LA
Can any other potential stages be combined into group due to clone or echo like groupings or clusters?


-New Donk City Hall
-WarioWare, Inc.
-Lylat Cruise
-Skyloft
-Castle Siege
-Arena Ferox
-Frigate Orpheon
-Wuhu Island
-Dracula’s Castle
etc.
Groupings off the top of my head, note that I'll be including all stages with even a chance of legality:

Triplats
Battlefield, Yoshi's Story, Fountain of Dreams, Dream Land, Midgar

Two-Plats
Pokemon Stadium 1, Pokemon Stadium 2, Unova Pokemon League

One-Plats
Smashville, Yoshi's Island, Halberd, Wuhu Island

No-Plats
Final Destination, Pictochat, Wily Castle, Umbra Clock Tower

Grand Tours
Prism Tower, New Donk City Hall, Mario Circuit, Port Town Aero Dive, Delfino Plaza (?)

Shark Bait
Skyloft, Wuhu Island, Halberd, Brinstar, Delfino Plaza, Port Town Aero Dive, Prism Tower, New Donk City Hall

Uneven Ground
Castle Siege, Yoshi's Island, Rainbow Cruise, Lylat Cruise, Dracula's Castle, Garden of Hope

Asymmetrical
Castle Siege, Rainbow Cruise, Dracula's Castle, Brinstar, Frigate Orpheon, Garden of Hope, Arena Ferox

Low Ceiling/High Platforms
Halberd, Delfino Plaza, Reset Bomb Forest, Yoshi's Story (?)

Maybe A Bit Big
Mushroom Kingdom U, Garden of Hope, Wuhu Island, Norfair

Water And Other Non-Voids
Pirate Ship, Tortimer Island, Spirit Train, Jungle Japes, Mute City SNES

Mind The Gap
Reset Bomb Forest, Green Greens, Jungle Japes, Find Mii

Solid Walls
Warioware, Yoshi's Island, Wily Castle, Unova Pokemon League, Castle Siege, Reset Bomb Forest, Mushroom Kingdom U, Garden of Hope, Find Mii

Obviously I'm being a bit cheeky and fudging these lists somewhat. Mostly a fun thought experiment on my part.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Oct 31, 2014
Messages
62
3DS FC
2105-8719-2070
NNID
Alexim
A couple of thoughts on this stuff because I think this discussion is really valuable.

By next year the entire community will be playing on the same set of 5-6, so why are we bothering with this?
It's tricky to try to trace tendencies like that. The smash community is not a hive-mind that inevitably decides to play on 5 stages every time. It's a bunch of different people with different preferences and a history that spans only four games with particular stage lists. This game not only features basically every stage ever legal, but also makes a plethora of new ones legal via a hazards toggle. This is new ground, I see no reason to extrapolate from previous games to say we'll end up with only 5 stages in Ultimate.

If I were to guess, I'd say more people want regular striking and that people here are overrepresented when it comes to more "liberal" ideas. Weren't people here fairly pro-customs as well for Smash 4? Yet in the end we ended up with customs banned.
Also, it never seemed to me that we ended up with customs banned because the smash community in general isn't as liberal as smashboards posters. I always thought that the reason customs didn't get traction is because very few people want to have a miserable time grinding for custom moves for dozens of hours when they could be having fun playing smash. And all of that grinding would be only to allow a metagame to develop around custom moves, which could still prove itself to be terribly imbalanced anyway. This is just to say that I don't think that customs having been banned in Smash 4 indicates anything in regards to the stage list in Ultimate.

I tend to think Flips seems like a very smooth and well developed process. The only thing that seems to me like it should be ironed out is the random pick for game 3, which is supposed to be the most neutral stage.

Amazing Ampharos Amazing Ampharos Could you please elaborate on this random stage pick element in game 3 and why it is/isn't an issue?
 
Last edited:

Raijinken

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 8, 2013
Messages
4,417
Location
Durham, NC
3DS FC
0662-3016-5774
NNID
Raijinken0
After discussing with some of my friends, we're thinking of going with some weird mishmash of full list, loser picks a few to let their opponent pick from, stage rotation by week OR limit the number of X Type that can be presented at once*.

*If the loser presents three options for the winner to pick from (like Thinkaman mentioned before), either there will only be 1-2 Triplats on rotation for the week, or the loser can only present one of them at a time for consideration to avoid "hah pick which Triplat you want" situations.

While there are differences and this gets very clunky very fast on a large tournament scale, this seems to suit my group pretty well.

Over all, though, I do think a rotation system could be used at regular events to keep Echo Stages from "taking" too many bans. Not exactly even for someone who wants to avoid Triplats to have to spend five bans while someone opposed to Biplats only spends three.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jul 21, 2014
Messages
811
If the list would be set to 9, I could see FD, BF, Pokémon Stadium 1, Lylat Cruise, WarioWare Inc., Yoshi’s Island, Unova League or Kalos League, Smashville, and Arena Ferox as a nice decent list.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top