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Social Disciples of Dark Samus

Diem

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"Our struggles have ended. She has shown us the error of our ways. The way is now clear. All previous vows of fealty have been forsworn: we now pledge sole allegiance to our liberator, the great one, Dark Samus. We bear a singular honor, we lucky few, for we are her first disciples. Our burden is a happy one, for we will pave the way to her glorious victory and cosmic rule. Let the light of Phazon lead us!"
- Space Pirate Data "First Disciples," Metroid Prime 3



I still didn't know if it would happen. The evidence was there, but two Metroid characters in one game? Really? Especially Dark Samus, who only had two appearances over a decade ago?

Yet here we are, ladies and gentleman. Not a full-fledged character, like we may have hoped, but at least a stylish Echo Fighter.
 
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DNeon

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Wooo

Not as Phazon-y as was hoping but HE SAID SHE WAS DIFFERENT SO YOU COULD CHOOSE WHICH YOU PREFERRED
 

Shog

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OMG I AM SO HAPPY AND HOPEFULLY IT HAS A SA-X COLOR SWAP THAT WOULD BE SIIICK (or true Phazon Suit anyone?)

Gah, Ridley and Dark Samus... and Kraid's Stage. GUH I AM HYPE
 

meleebrawler

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Love how she barely shifts position during her dash attack, since her dash is basically already ready for it.

This and Chrom are making me question everything I believed about echo fighters.
 
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meleebrawler

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Chrom having a completely different Up-B is really starting to make me wonder why Doc, YL and Tink aren't considered Echoes...
Well, he does learn Aether in his game sooo... I guess now the criteria is "has no move that isn't shared by another fighter", whether or not it's the one you're an echo of.

Doc dair is original to him, Young Link has his rapid jab and Toon Link has a new forward smash and different aerials.
 

EchoesOfRain

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super hyped about Dark Samus! I'm curious how different she'll feel compared to Samus, even if not much.

I'm so happy that Metroid is getting more reps, it deserves it. Dark Samus and Ridley will definitely be my go-to fighters

(Also, that alt color looks amazing, can't wait to see the other palettes)
 

Crystanium

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It appears Samus and Dark Samus are slightly different, and that's not just taunts or rolls. I wonder what is different about Dark Samus. Also, will d-throw to u-smash be a true combo? Also, I wonder if her dash attack is just Samus' dash attack from SSB4. Dark Samus uses DA ⇒ stand grab ⇒ dash u-smash.
 
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Primid

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I really love that they made her float around, plus that victory animation where she splits into two is sick! I honestly thought they might get lazy with her animations as an echo, but I was proven wrong thankfully!
 

Diem

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Chrom having a completely different Up-B is really starting to make me wonder why Doc, YL and Tink aren't considered Echoes...
Well, those characters all have some other substantial and unique differences. Chrom just has Ike's Up-B, but may otherwise have no major distinctions.

But yeah, I knew the book wasn't written on Echo Fighters yet. All we had to go off of were Dark Pit and Lucina, and less so Daisy (we haven't seen much of her). We got three more today, so now we know more of what to expect. Which is good, because some of the Echo Fighter predictions were getting out of hand.

Though it's possible that Chrom just gets special treatment, because Fire Emblem.

I was shocked to see Richter as an echo, actually. I wasn't as sure as everyone else about 3rd party echoes, especially for newcomers, and I got concerned with that followed by Chrom. It was like "Don't do this to me Sakurai, just confirm or deconfirm it so I can move on with my life!"

Was. Not. Disappointed.
 

meleebrawler

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It appears Samus and Dark Samus are slightly different, and that's not just taunts or rolls. I wonder what is different about Dark Samus. Also, will d-throw to u-smash be a true combo? Also, I wonder if her dash attack is just Samus' dash attack from SSB4. Dark Samus uses DA ⇒ stand grab ⇒ dash u-smash.
Oh you know, knockback angles, damage values, hitboxes etc. Standard stuff. The animations are in a class of their own though. Her sidestep and dash attack in particular crack me up, she barely looks like she's even trying. Take trailer "combos" with a grain of salt though, they did the same dthrow to usmash with Mewtwo in 4 and look how that turned out.

What I wonder is, does her fsmash have the same sweetspot as Samus's? Has a nice "claw" formation if you look closely.
 

ChronoBound

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OMG I AM SO HAPPY AND HOPEFULLY IT HAS A SA-X COLOR SWAP THAT WOULD BE SIIICK (or true Phazon Suit anyone?)

Gah, Ridley and Dark Samus... and Kraid's Stage. GUH I AM HYPE
Metroid's representation is perfect. Samus fighting Ridley, Dark Samus, and Mother Brain (Assist Trophy) on Brinstar Depths is Samus's Ultimate battle.

Dark Samus is the single most lucky character to ever make it into Smash Bros. So many starts had to align to make her get in. I am glad that there is a happy ending for supporters for Dark Samus. She is extremely fortunate to have made it in at all.
 

AustarusIV

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I can't believe I'm actually living in this timeline.

I can't believe we have a Smash game where we got not one, but two Metroid newcomers, and they're Ridley and Dark freakin' Samus?!??!?

December can't come soon enough!
 

TCT~Phantom

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Super happy, hoping the support thread can be moved here too. She looks fun. Love that she floats.
 

AuraWielder

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This is absolutely amazing, guys!
After Ridley was revealed, I was actually pretty OK with Metroid's representation and all that I wanted back was Brinstar Depths. For me, pre-E3, what I wanted was either Ridley, or Dark Samus as a unique character if Ridley was impossible. Even though Dark Samus is an echo, having her AND Ridley as a unique fighter was more than I ever thought Metroid would receive.
 

IronTed

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Ever since we discovered Samus no longer had her 'Dark Samus" alt, I expected Dark Samus as an Echo, but the reveal was still really, really cool. Her victory animation involving her echoes is great, and as someone who plays Samus a lot, I am stoked for this.

This reminds me of Shiny Umbreon. Sometimes all you need is a subtle change to make a really cool alt.
 
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Garo

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While the Castlevania stuff got a more emotional reaction out of me, Dark Samus was definitely the biggest "YES!" moment and deserving of applause. I love how different the animations are, and at this point any mechanical differences are just the cherry on top. For alts I'm hoping for the overloaded look from the end of Prime 2, that would be sick.
 

Diem

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Metroid's representation is perfect. Samus fighting Ridley, Dark Samus, and Mother Brain (Assist Trophy) on Brinstar Depths is Samus's Ultimate battle.

Dark Samus is the single most lucky character to ever make it into Smash Bros. So many starts had to align to make her get in. I am glad that there is a happy ending for supporters for Dark Samus. She is extremely fortunate to have made it in at all.
I just know that there's going to be an Event Match with Samus, Ridley, Dark Samus, Mother Brain/Metroid Assist Trophies, and Kraid on Brinstar Depths.

Hadn't considered it like that, but you're right when you say that Dark Samus is the single luckiest character to make it into Smash Bros. Metroid Prime 2 and 3 sold well, but they didn't exactly sell as spectacularly as many other games/franchises in Smash. And unlike other villains or characters in most other games, Prime 2 and 3 don't really dwell on her importance. She just kind of shows up and fights you sometimes in 2, and in 3 she orchestrates things from behind the scenes (save for the one moment on Norion) and doesn't fully appear again until the very end. And those are her only two appearances, ever, in 2004 and 2007. No repeat appearances, no larger spotlight, just a handful of moments across two games and nothing more. I'm guessing even Dark Pit had more of a spotlight in Kid Icarus: Uprising, though I haven't played it.

Like, Simon/Richter/Chrom are main characters of their games, K. Rool was the villain of several majorly popular Donkey Kong games, Daisy's been around for a long time and continues to appear in Mario games, Splatoon is insanely popular, and Ridley's been a #1 request for almost two decades. Dark Samus hasn't been relevant for about a decade, and even back then wasn't as prominent as most other characters usually are.

Even with all the circumstantial evidence--the alt color change, the absence of the Assist Trophy, the announcement of Echo Fighters, the lack of Ridley's art, etc.--I still wasn't convinced it would happen. All that meant was that the chances were upgraded from "totally unlikely" to "possible." I didn't think the demand would be high enough to warrant it. I know I had my ballot vote, but I didn't think it would work. I'm so glad that they revealed her today. I don't think I could've gone another 2-4 months of stringing me along.

Your Ridley writeup inspired me to do my own if Dark Samus actually got announced. Looks like I'll be getting to that soon.
 

Dalek_Kolt

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Dark Samus looks amazing. The veins on her shoulders are just the right amount of disgusting.
 

ChronoBound

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I just know that there's going to be an Event Match with Samus, Ridley, Dark Samus, Mother Brain/Metroid Assist Trophies, and Kraid on Brinstar Depths.

Hadn't considered it like that, but you're right when you say that Dark Samus is the single luckiest character to make it into Smash Bros. Metroid Prime 2 and 3 sold well, but they didn't exactly sell as spectacularly as many other games/franchises in Smash. And unlike other villains or characters in most other games, Prime 2 and 3 don't really dwell on her importance. She just kind of shows up and fights you sometimes in 2, and in 3 she orchestrates things from behind the scenes (save for the one moment on Norion) and doesn't fully appear again until the very end. And those are her only two appearances, ever, in 2004 and 2007. No repeat appearances, no larger spotlight, just a handful of moments across two games and nothing more. I'm guessing even Dark Pit had more of a spotlight in Kid Icarus: Uprising, though I haven't played it.

Like, Simon/Richter/Chrom are main characters of their games, K. Rool was the villain of several majorly popular Donkey Kong games, Daisy's been around for a long time and continues to appear in Mario games, Splatoon is insanely popular, and Ridley's been a #1 request for almost two decades. Dark Samus hasn't been relevant for about a decade, and even back then wasn't as prominent as most other characters usually are.

Even with all the circumstantial evidence--the alt color change, the absence of the Assist Trophy, the announcement of Echo Fighters, the lack of Ridley's art, etc.--I still wasn't convinced it would happen. All that meant was that the chances were upgraded from "totally unlikely" to "possible." I didn't think the demand would be high enough to warrant it. I know I had my ballot vote, but I didn't think it would work. I'm so glad that they revealed her today. I don't think I could've gone another 2-4 months of stringing me along.

Your Ridley writeup inspired me to do my own if Dark Samus actually got announced. Looks like I'll be getting to that soon.
Sakurai mentioned that both Chrom and Dark Samus were really popular choices, so your vote on the ballot certainly helped Dark Samus get in. I am glad she made it in. She was a critical actor for the Metroid series, particularly the Prime series. I find it fitting both Chrom and Dark Samus were confirmed together because both were characters whose time in the sun was over in the prospective series (Fates, Shadows of Valentia, and Three Houses all came after Awakening) and DS has been gone since 2007.

It goes into more than just that. If Metroid Prime 3 had not been released after Brawl was in Japan, Sakurai might never have looked at the game to throw it a bone in terms of content. Dark Samus making it in as an Assist Trophy was absolutely critical to Dark Samus getting upgraded. Again, if it were not for Prime 3 releasing after Brawl, and Sakurai wanting to throw that game (he gave most of the new Metroid content in Smash 4 from Other M) a bone, Dark Samus could very well not have made it since he likely would probably have not have been personally aware of her (and thus realize how feasible of an echo fighter she would be).

Also, the fact that echo fighters even exist is another star that had to align for DS. The reason the echoes even came about was due to Sakurai bringing back Dr. Mario as a costume and then having second faults about how his particular fans would feel about him losing what made him unique from Mario. Sakurai making Dr. Mario his own character again was the impetus Sakurai needed to decided "why not upgrade Lucina and Dark Pit."

The ballot happening was another thing that needed to happen. People had to ask for Dark Samus to show she had enough popularity to even be upgraded. Ridley being a boss, likely siphoned some votes from Ridley to Dark Samus seeing as most people thought the ballot was for Smash 4 DLC.

Another star that had to align was the fact that Ultimate is true newcomer poor. There are likely only a few non-echo newcomers left. Sakurai added the clones in Melee due to feeling he did not add in enough newcomers (only eight at the time). The echoes fulfill the same purpose. They boost the number of new fighters to the game.

Dark Samus right now is the only character aside from Little Mac to have been promoted from an Assist Trophy. LITTLE MAC. Look at how big the Ashley thread was. Look at how loud Waluigi fans are. Dark Samus managed to do something only one other fighter was ever able to do (maybe you can say Charizard managed to do it too since he was a Pokeball Pokemon in 64 and Melee). Little Mac (and Charizard) are iconic legends. Dark Samus defied all of these odds and made it in. Even echo status is impressive for Dark Samus.

Congrats. I am glad you got your single most wanted fighter. I bet you are looking forward to the (probable) amiibo as well.
 

DungeonMaster

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WOOOT! I'm SOOOOO happy with this direct! Dark Samus AND Simon Belmont! Prayers answered!!!!

And look at the hitstun on up-tilt .... NO grounded tech possible Up-tilt -> grab true combo. (Maybe)
 
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Metallinatus

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Welcome to the all the new guys who didn't really play Samus in the past two games and are about to know what it is like to be ignored by daddy Sakurai :b:
She is looking to be bottom tier again btw, so enjoy your stay :ultsamus:
 

Diem

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Welcome to the all the new guys who didn't really play Samus in the past two games and are about to know what it is like to be ignored by daddy Sakurai :b:
She is looking to be bottom tier again btw, so enjoy your stay :ultsamus:
As ESAM put it, "Now I have two chances for her to be bad!"

Regardless, tiers have never been much a concern of mine. My previous mains; R.O.B., King Dedede, Samus, Jigglypuff, and Mega Man aren't exactly the most competitive characters. But I mostly just play semi-casually with my siblings, so that doesn't matter. I've kicked their butts dozens of times with Samus, despite her being so low tier. We're about evenly matched for the mostpart, too. It's comfortable for me, because I get to be successful with the characters I like, but I don't have to feel like a tier *****.

Also, I believe that there's more of a chance for both characters to be better in this game. Samus was buffed from trash to okay in 1.1.5, so if the trend continues, hopefully she'll be better this time around.

Though I'm totally going to take Dark Samus way more seriously than I have other characters in the past, no matter how good or bad she is. That new training mode and I are going to spend a lot of time together.
 

Diem

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I decided to double-check, and Echo Fighters are actually called "Dash Fighters" in Japan. So if the use of the term "Echo" is solely the responsibility of the localization team, then it probably had nothing to do with Sakurai's decision. But if he is aware of that terminology, then maybe it did, but we can't say for certain.
 

meleebrawler

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As ESAM put it, "Now I have two chances for her to be bad!"

Regardless, tiers have never been much a concern of mine. My previous mains; R.O.B., King Dedede, Samus, Jigglypuff, and Mega Man aren't exactly the most competitive characters. But I mostly just play semi-casually with my siblings, so that doesn't matter. I've kicked their butts dozens of times with Samus, despite her being so low tier. We're about evenly matched for the mostpart, too. It's comfortable for me, because I get to be successful with the characters I like, but I don't have to feel like a tier *****.

Also, I believe that there's more of a chance for both characters to be better in this game. Samus was buffed from trash to okay in 1.1.5, so if the trend continues, hopefully she'll be better this time around.

Though I'm totally going to take Dark Samus way more seriously than I have other characters in the past, no matter how good or bad she is. That new training mode and I are going to spend a lot of time together.
His judgement of characters seems almost entirely based on combo ability. I can't think of any other reason a changed dash attack is all it takes to plummet his opinion of Samus.
 

Metallinatus

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His judgement of characters seems almost entirely based on combo ability. I can't think of any other reason a changed dash attack is all it takes to plummet his opinion of Samus.
Her combos out of dash attack* were like 50% of all Samus could do in Smash 4, though. I'm not even kidding.
 
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Crystanium

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His judgement of characters seems almost entirely based on combo ability. I can't think of any other reason a changed dash attack is all it takes to plummet his opinion of Samus.
Certain characters DI better out of Samus' d-throw, whereas having a dash attack places Samus within that range, allowing for her to follow up with combos. This hurts Samus. I heard M2K say something about u-air not being the same, either. And with jab 1 having a fixed knock-back, that hurts her neutral game. Samus might drop.
 

Aetheri

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We made it bois and gorls!!!
 

Reila

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She looks like a boss (which, well, she is). Everything she does looks so effortless. "Well let me just barely move and dodge your attacks".

I wanted her to be added and I am pleased she is in. Truth to be said, Dark Samus had enormous potential for an unique moveset, but I never expected it to happen. I will take her as an echo fighter.
Especially Dark Samus, who only had two appearances over a decade ago?
Technically three. Not only she appears at the end of Metroid Prime (her hand :p), she is THE Metroid Prime.
 
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Erimir

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Chrom having a completely different Up-B is really starting to make me wonder why Doc, YL and Tink aren't considered Echoes...
For all Echoes, we also know that appearance, voice/sounds, taunts, victory animations, etc. are different. Some moves may have different animations while having the same hitbox data. Alternate costumes have identical animations and move data.

The only two we know (basically) everything about are Dark Pit and Lucina. We know that changes to Marth's side-b applied to Lucina. Dark Pit and Lucina have the same animations, movement speed, weight, etc. as their source characters. Dark Pit is the same size.

The differences we know for them (assuming no new differences) are:
Dark Pit - totally different Final Smash, differences in speed/damage/knockback on his side-b and neutral-b, and the electric effect. There are a couple small differences on a couple other moves (jab and f-tilt)
Lucina - she's slightly shorter than Marth, and lacks the tipper effect with damage being slightly increased to compensate (i.e. a sourspot Marth hit is weaker than a Lucina hit), she has some minor differences on her jab, u-tilt, and Shield Breaker

So both have a couple minor differences on standard attacks. For Dark Pit you have one totally unique move, and two fairly altered specials, while Lucina has slightly different global attributes (slightly shorter, no tipper).

With Chrom we've seen:
different u-special, although it's borrowed from Ike
different Final Smash, although it seems to function pretty similarly to Marth's Critical Hit

By comparison, Doc has:
different speed and weight (potentially slightly different size)
more damage on most moves, different knockback/trajectory on many, differences in frame data
Tornado instead of FLUDD
Pills instead of Fireballs
unique d-air
And we haven't seen all his moves yet to know if there was more decloning (personally, I think it would be cool if they added viruses to his moveset).

Young Link and Toon Link are both very different from Link in terms of size, weight and speed attributes, their swords are also different sizes (Although Tink's and Yink's are pretty similar). They also have several unique moves, and Young Link is now even more different from Link due to Breath of the Wild content being incorporated into Link's moveset. Presumably they will also have many differences in damage, knockback, frame data, hitbox placement, projectile speeds and trajectories.

Link's other unique moves/attributes:
Sword beams
item arrows, double arrow shot
dash attack (presumably)
remote Rune Bombs
no Hookshot/Clawshot
Ancient Arrows Final Smash

Tink's:
different n-air, f-air and b-air, d-air is stall-and-fall
different f-smash and u-smash
Triforce Slash Final Smash

Yink's:
Jab combo
Fire arrows
Deku Shield probably still weaker than Hylian Shield
Probably getting Fierce Deity Link as Final Smash

Each Link pair is more different from each other than Dark/Pit and Marth/Lucina are. And that's assuming we don't see more decloning, whereas we can probably assume that decloning for Dark Pit and Lucina will be minimal due to their Echo labels (we've already seen some changes apply to both Marth and Lucina). I'm guessing Tink's new f-smash was motivated by Yink's return, so we may see more changes to either character.

We won't know the limits of Echo differences until we see their full movesets...
 

Aetheri

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Just an FYI, Dark Samus is the first American created fighter in Smash.

As well as the first female villain.
 

CardiganBoy

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I’ve always loved Dark Samus since MP2 Echoes and the long fight has finally reached a triumphant end.

I am extremely extatic with Dark Samus joining the battle, i love how they went the extra mile and gave her more unique animations than just taunts, victory poses, and idles, she has that rougher, more savage flair she’s known for.

Her design also looks amazing, it’s mostly MP3 but it has subtle MP2 details like the protuding veins.
And the best part is that Sakurai mentioned how she was a popular request, so we indeed were a sizable number of Dark Samus followers.

I’m so happy to have a new main, now we can revive moments like this in Smash:


And also we can celebrate like this:
 

Diem

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There were two camps of people concerning Echo Fighters. The liberal camp of opinions like "Screw it, Banjo & Kazooie as Duck Hunt echo," or the conservative camp of opinions like "Only characters like Shadow and Isabelle make sense as Echo Fighters," thinking they have to share the exact same moves and animations.

The latter thought Dark Samus would either be impossible or foolish, because her sharing the same exact animations as Samus would be wrong, given how she's supposed to float. After all, Dark Pit and Lucina have the same animations as the fighters they echo. But given how Daisy has different animations, I figured Dark Samus could, at the very least, have a floating animation for movement instead of running.

Not only does she float, but all of her animations are new and perfect. I knew after how perfect Ridley turned out that a Dark Samus would be incredible, and I wasn't wrong. Even though I was still a little doubtful that Dark Samus would appear in the first place, given how we already have Ridley, the fact that we got both created with such attention to detail makes me infinitely happier with this game than any previous Smash game.

Chrom is an interesting case because he also shows that it doesn't have to be the exact same moveset, either. If there's another character with a move that fits, it can be used as well. Again, he might just be a special case because he's from Fire Emblem, of course, but that means something like a Dixie Kong Echo Fighter could work well. Just give her, say, Duck Hunt's recovery (with different animations) and she won't have to use Diddy Kong's jetpack. Of course, that'd be crossing franchise lines, but that actually seems like a possibility now.

DK and Metroid getting their villain and fitting Echo Fighters would be pretty poetic. And I don't even like Donkey Kong.
 

Garo

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There was one part in the presentation where they showed what seemed to be Dark Samus' helpless falling animation after a Screw Attack, with Kirby falling next to her. Now this might be nothing, but I thought maybe that could hint at her being a tad floatier than Samus. With Chrom blurring the line of how echos can differ and the only official statement being "They're each slightly different than the fighters they're based on", do you think this could be possible?
 

IronTed

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Just an FYI, Dark Samus is the first American created fighter in Smash.

As well as the first female villain.
Never thought about this, it makes DS' inclusion all the more satisfying.

There was one part in the presentation where they showed what seemed to be Dark Samus' helpless falling animation after a Screw Attack, with Kirby falling next to her. Now this might be nothing, but I thought maybe that could hint at her being a tad floatier than Samus. With Chrom blurring the line of how echos can differ and the only official statement being "They're each slightly different than the fighters they're based on", do you think this could be possible?
Put me in the "it's possible" camp. Given that she's been able to literally fly, and in general seems to be more floaty looking than Samus, it seems like a reasonable conclusion. Of course it could just be a purely visual attribute as well, we still don't know much about Echo fighters and their rules.
 
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