Dirtiest Player in the Game - Wario Social Thread

[Lord Chair]

You are not right. Also since when is Sonic's punish game bad?

 

[Tesh]

I think you vastly underestimate Sonic. He is bad but he beats the characters that beat viable characters. Don't think just because Ike and Marth can stomp all over Snake, that they don't also get stomped by Sonic.

Its the same boat with ROB, DK, Peach, Fox, Pit etc. They are all more viable than Sonic, but still lose/go even with him.

No one in brawl is particularly easy to gimp or kill (outside of low tier). 9 times out of 10, marth will make it to the ledge and 9 times out of 10 his early kill setups wont work on Sonic either. This game is a big defensive struggle.

Marth and Ike rely on the same thing for safety. Both keep you at max range so they by the time you reach them, they moves are over. It just doesn't work against Sonic though, which is the problem they both run into. Marth actually does take an equal risk for whiffing his aerials because of how quickly Sonic can get to it. Being slightly wrong means you got grabbed, even if Sonic wasn't near you when you missed. Sonic, much like Snake or ZSS, has hitboxes attached to his legs where they really shouldn't be. Marth only barely outranges Sonic most of the time (in a matchup where its not humanly possible to space safely often) and sometimes is less range.

As for Wario vs DDD, imagine for a moment that you are examining the matchup with fresh eyes, without any preconceived notions that DDD is Wario's worst matchup. Would you still think DDD wins "for a reason" if DDDs are losing to Warios consistently? Any scientific approach has to accept the results of expiriments (even if with a "grain of salt"). I don't know the skill difference between Reflex and the Warios you are talking about, but it shouldn't be disregarded just because we've always viewed the matchup as bad in the past. Once upon a time Wario was seen as even with MK, but results proved otherwise and we adapted our thinking. We never want to look at just one result, but at high level play, a larger pool of players for each character can show a pattern. If Gluttony beat Atomsk and lost to Seibrik, Reflex beats 4GOD regularly and whatnot, the matchup doesn't look so bad at high level play does it?

For the record, I don't keep responding because I'm mad or I hate you. I enjoy a good debate, fight, argument, discussion or whatever. Nothing is more interesting than understanding why another person has a different view than mine.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I don't regularly beat 4GOD (didn't, rather; he ended up quitting last year).

 

[smashkng]

With "weak" I mean not doing much damage from a punishment (which is one of Sonic's problems). I guess he can string but that rarely set ups a kill move. And you don't base on making technical mistakes when you discuss MUs right? I'm only arguing that this MU isn't 0. Maybe Sonic does punish Marth as hard as viceversa when it comes to dealing damage, but then struggles landing his slow kill moves, moves which don't start killing until 120 or 130%, which is the main difference. I think that's enough for the MU not to be 0, but I think Marth also wins in other areas (like juggling). When comparing Marth and Ike's spacing, Ike has more range but Marth still zons much better cause his mobility is much better and his moves have almost no start-up unlike Ike, so he can space perfectly much more consistently. Plus Marth has a far better OoS game than Ike has (especially when it comes to mid-range punishment, an area Ike's OoS game lacks). Marth can space outside hurtboxes to trick you better than Ike can because 3 of his aerials only have 7 frames landing lag (which is very little for even the most mobile characters). Ike's Nair has 13 frames landing lag, and they call that "lagless". So comparing those 2 characters only makes it look like Marth has a much easier time against Sonic IMO, which means that if Ike has a 0 on Sonic, then Marth certainly has a +1 on him.

 

[xzx]

I laugh at the idea that King Dedede is Wario's worst MU. Marth and MK is much worse.

Okay, Tesh, I have proven my point and you have proven yours.

 

[Croi]

Ehh I dunno, DDD is pretty terrible...

 

[xzx]

Not any more terrible than Marth and MK. Wario has at least his great aerial mobility to flee from DDD. Marth and especially MK can wall Wario in almost every direction all day long. Yes, DDD is terrible, but he can be somewhat played around and timed out, while Marth is just terrible with his nasty grab releases; and when MK gets the stock lead he can laugh all he wants at Wario's miserable struggle to try to make a comeback.

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

imo ddd/wario is almost even

the only thing ddd REALLY has is a very strong/consistant punsih out of grab

but that almost gets countered by warios insane edgeguard game on ddd, fart being garunteed on edgeguard, and bite destroying any ddd fishing for grabs and ***** ddd's spot dodge


not completely even just because ddd's damage is way more consistant, but if wario gets a lead at all the ddd will NOT be having a good time

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

Apparently I am just chasing Siebrik today... But on the note of ddd wario I feel like DDD can comfortably pressure wario at any elevation due to his multiple jumps and fast fall speed. This allows him to be a better vertical wall than anybody not named mk. Maybe I am wrong but how does wario deal with DDD's wall of back airs at always the same height as wario?

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

assuming your not on fd cause strike/ban it


how would you not start off higher than the ddd using platforms?

never play on the main stage vs ddd and you should almost always have an option of getting above and coming from ontop his head while he's bairing with ur dair

 

[LOE1]

dat DDD bair wall tho, so annoying.
i kinda think wario's worst mu's go MK - DDD - Marth.

 

[Lord Chair]

DDD doesn't have any reason to commit to bair if he's within dairbomb burst range.

 

[xzx]

Lol at DDD vs Wario being "almost even". We all know how broken DDD's bair is, so you have to be very patient and smart when approaching (if approaching at all...) the arrogance king. Sometimes you have to go all out on him, while at other times you have to sit there and eat Waddle Dees and laugh. Regarding MK, I almost feel it is -3/-4 to Wario, but no one will ever believe me and start throwing out arguments about how this hasn't been proved yet etc etc.

 

[LOE1]

in other news, i finally beat zinoto in tourney

 

[Croi]

Good ****, LOE1.

 

[xzx]

Who's that?

 

[LOE1]

3rd bet diddy in the U.S., behind ADHD and GNES

 

[Tesh]

player 1 did what no other diddy ever could though

 

[Croi]

What, time out Ally?

 

[xzx]

Anyone more than me who thinks the Matchup between Wario and G&W is in Wario's disadvantage?

 

[LOE1]

ehh i think its even. G&W can rack up damage on you, and knock ya out of the air with up b, but he cant kill you if you play smart. just be very careful of his fair, and you should live a long time. (like everytime i play) i like to get the lead and run away, since he cant rly do **** about it. punish when the oppertunity comes.

 

[xzx]

But I think the fact that G&W forces Wario to ground combat (since he uses disjointed ranged hitboxes which Wario hates so much) and his nair totally ***** Wario (in the air), his up-b is a really good escape move (which has invincibility) that beats a lot of Wario's move (and makes his waft attacks pseudo useless), the fact that Wario must kill with wafts (f-smashes and f-tilts to an extent) are somewhat risky and Wario's up-air will be beat most of the time by G&W's dair, it really says something. I think the Matchup is in G&W's advantage, but I dunno, Warios don't agree with me. Outranging right there with good defensive moves.

 

[Lord Chair]

GaW doesn't force anything committed and even though Wario gets outranged he does always have forms of counterplay available to him. You don't need to straight up beat his dair (although it's possible) to punish the usage. You don't need to kill with ftilt or fsmash, those are as situational as in any other matchup. Uair kills really early and doesn't have to be staled, fthrow kills at 170 and fart setups aren't uncommon. Nair ***** us if we go for an aerial approach and gets lightly punished (or has to be fully retreated) if we shield it. We can actually fair a hard-read nair and put him in a really bad situation. If you feel Wario loses this matchup you're probably rushing things too much.

 

[xzx]

What forms of counterplay, if I may ask?

No, I know that I don't have to beat his dair with up-air, and that was kinda my point - tt's hard to land an up-air since he can just dair. I neither didn't say you have to kill with f-smash or f-tilt, but it's so hard to kill him otherwise (unless a lucky waft/hard read f-smash/whatever or as such).

"Nair ***** us if we go for an aerial approach..." That's right Lord Chair, and that was my point. Wario is so limited in the air thus he cannot "really" go for an aerial approach. Even if he shouldn't go for an aerial approach, his ground options are also somewhat lacking.

I also wanna say that I don't base matchups on my experience, because that would be straight up biased and wrong. I just don't know how Wario should play against G&W, as I see G&W shutting down many options Wario has. (On top of outranging him (and having long lasting hitboxes) and can kill him with his ridiculous smashes.)

Yeah, chances are high that I may rush things too much, but I have never understood how to play against G&W. I really hoped to get some good advice when we discussed this matchup in our matchup thread but all I saw was "f-throw him lol, even".

So please, how do you guys play against him? (One thing for sure is to have patience against him and not fall into his traps!)

 

[Lord Chair]

I wrote a wall of text on him sometime before, probably in my ''chair's bolus of information'' thread. Why do you mind being grounded? Exhaust your shield, he can't afford to grab you because the risk-reward is utterly horrible for him. He can't poke your shield without giving up stage control. Most of your counterplay consists of getting him to give up space so you can press the issue in a more favorable manner. You can force him to make a lot of decisions simply by moving, doesn't mean you have to move towards him or throw out attacks. Empty hops are powerful because they soft and sometimes hard counter his committed short hop options.

 

[xzx]

I am grateful for what you have written, but I still don't know how exactly Wario should play against Mr. Game & Watch. Isn't there a (recent) video of a Wario battling a G&W?

Meh, I simply have to understand the MU myself by playing it a lot I guess. =< The only way y'know.

 

[Lord Chair]

You're going to have to play it a lot regardless if only because the difference between proper SDI and not-proper SDI means huge chunks of % and potential kill setups. The most recent stuff I have is 3 years old, but I had a lot of experience playing the then arguably best GaW in Europe. You have to be very methodical and be very conservative in which fights you pick. You have a lot of room for conditioning and if you let that go to waste you're making the MU an uphill battle. Make a note of every time you get hit by a smash or a fair. Smashes land because you made an error, fairs land because you got read in your movement (such reads shouldn't be worth the risk-reward for GaW in most cases, whiffs get him uaired).

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

How do you approach the Ice Climbers match up? I assume it's kind of like game and watch in that they can set up a really solid wall with de-synced down b and up air's. I imagine it's a lot of stalling for fart so you can kill nana off if you ever separate them. But breaking through that wall of their's is quite a daunting task...

 

[Croi]

You can bike through the blizzard no problem. If you see them walling you with blizzard, you can try biking through it to get a pot-shot at one or both of them. Unless one of them is at a high-enough percentage to make the knockback worth it, though, it usually won't be.

 

[xzx]

Camp against Ice Climbers. Their aerials aren't that easy to penetrate.

 

[Tesh]

You can be grabbed off of your bike if you aren't doing a wheelie, so keep in mind that if 1 ICs is blizzarding, the other is probably free to do whatever.

 

[xzx]

Welcome back, Warios.

 

[Lord Chair]

I placed 4th at an international in Europe. Had a good run and nothing was recorded except for my very last set against Dany, which includes a match I win against his Ice Climbers (showcasing very well how I think the MU should be played) and three consecutive matches in which I pretty much get bodied by his Marth. I think there was at least some demand for IC videos though so I guess I'll make those few people happy once the set gets uploaded.

 

[xzx]

Wow nice! What do you think of the Matchup against ICs? And the ratio?

 

[Lord Chair]

I've talked about it before, I'm sure. I feel it's a slight advantage for ICs but nothing particularly bad and I think there is room for the MU to get better, especially when people finally learn how to properly buffer platform drop aerials out of shield. Admittedly that stuff is extremely difficult to do but it would mean a complete overhaul of the matchup because suddenly ICs don't have platform pressure anymore. Even without that, however, I think the matchup is doable. You'll see me make a bunch of mistakes and get lucky with Dany messing up the chaingrab but all of those mistakes were preventable and I'm convinced that Wario can prevent getting grabbed and will only lose by getting hit by too many aerials.

 

[xzx]

Yeah, I agree. I feel that the Matchup definitely is in ICs's advantage. I would say ICs are worse for Wario than what Peach is. (ICs are better at walling Wario and have more serious punishes than what Peach has.) Both of these Matchups aren't that "bad" but they are definitely not evenish.

But yeah, recently I have seen many Warios performing those platform drop aerials and that makes Wario's aerial game more "fluently"/"liquid", which is good.

 

[Lord Chair]

You haven't seen the ones I mean because literally no one does them consistently yet.

 

[xzx]

Yeah, I know. I was meaning the other "plain" platform drop aerials.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Maybe I'll make that my next project to work on, even though I'm a washed-up has-been.

 

[Blue Rogue]

I would've loved to know how to do those 2 years ago...