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Dirtiest Player in the Game - Wario Social Thread

Croi

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- Tell us what you know went wrong, but know what to do about it.
Well, this one's just silly. If I knew what I did wrong and I knew how to fix it, what do I need you for?

Just because I post an hour of material doesn't mean at all that you have to watch it all, and by no means did I suggest or imply that you should. Just pick one. And just give a general critique, nobody's really looking for a play-by-play every frame. I agree - why waste such "valuable" time watching a terrible Wario play terribly when you could be telling all of the lesser Warios how they're all lackluster failures in the eyes of their Lord? I'd be asking you to deprive Smashboards of a privilege they can no longer live without.
 

Lord Chair

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The person giving critique can then skip the things you are already aware of, which saves time and energy. I probably sounded rather harsh with all that which kinda justifies your response but please bear in mind that proper critique takes quite a bit of effort and you have your own part to play in it. If you upload something for ****s 'n giggles that's fine but you won't get a lot of response. Not in the form of critique nor in any other form of feedback because there's just not that much to say. My outlining the fact that you guys complain about a lack of discussion is related: proper discussion takes effort and coordination and that's just not there at the moment.

With regards to the value of my time: yes it's priceless, I'm awesome like that.
 

xzx

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The thing is... there's nothing more to do here... kinda. I once planned to do a "Wario and the Stages"-thread (we Warios discussing what Wario can do on the allowed stages and "more") like I did with his MUs but I sorta scrapped the idea.

I wished I could attend more tournaments and then post the videos here for critique, so I can get aware of my own weakness(es) that I maybe don't see. Things like that. (I hate how I am my biggest obstacle in tournament play because I tend to play much worse than usual. =I)
 

TheReflexWonder

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I'm sure this has been discussed countless times and I've just missed it/haven't paid attention, but--

I've always wondered how effective it tends to be for a Wario to actively move away for the timer (for Waft and/or a time-out), as it's something I usually don't make the most of until close to/at my last stock, depending on the circumstances.

I only really play this game at locals that I happen to find myself at these days, but I spent all my reasonably-difficult matches doing it (for fear that I'd mess up spacing while constantly doing mid-range weaving), and...I kind of steamrolled that event. Not sure if that's just because the best player (Player-1) plays Diddy Kong, or if there's more merit to it than I initially thought. What do you guys think? (This is less about what you do and more about what SEEMS to be most efficient.)
 

Lord Chair

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I've been doing a lot of thinking on it, I feel it's super dependent on the MU and the flow of the match. I don't think it's realistic to camp for a second fart opportunity without reaching a point where you're either going to take too much damage yourself or doing too much damage. It's counterproductive to camp for a 60% kill move if you end up getting your opponent to, say, 120%. It's kind of abstract and I'm quite annoyed at the fact that I'm still not sure what to think of it. If camping also means you cannot react efficiently to your opponent forcing an RPS because you're trying to avoid risks, you're going to end up not playing a match efficiently in the hope of compensating all that with a fart. Isn't it weird how this is also a form of a risk? I've edged away from the thought that having a fart forces your opponent to play differently and I now think that their option pool remains largely the same because Wario's fart setups are so similar to uair/fsmash setups.

I'm rambling.

Still, I feel it's hard to justify an inefficient playstyle in favor of getting the most out of the damage you do apply. The dream scenario is uthrowing someone, uair trapping them landing five hits and then manage to avoid any confrontation for one minute and a half and magically land a strong fart. It's just that it requires so much planning that it forces you to maintain control over the flow and tempo of the match for almost two minutes straight. If you deal too little damage you're not going to get a kill in the small time window you have to land that perfect fart. If you do (much) more damage you're increasing the window in which the fart is actually usable in the first place. I think waiting for a new fart every time you whiff one is situationally strong, depends on your opponent's percentage and usually requires some sort of lead if you intend to keep doing it. Suppose you whiff a strong fart when your opponent is at 100%, is camping for a minute and a half really more efficient than just playing your normal game and allow other kill options to present themselves? Of course you can and should slow down the tempo of the match as long as it doesn't mean you're being inefficient: after a minute you'll have an additional kill option.

Suppose he's at a fresh stock and you already have a lead: sure you can and should camp, not because of the possibility of a perfect 60% fart. That's the weird thing right? The optimal moment to wait out a new fart is when your opponent is not quite at the perfect kill range which would be at very low percentages, but how often are you even going to attempt a fart when your opponent is not going to get killed by it? Ideally your opponent is at 150%, you whiff a fart and you kill him by other means, then you have to gauge how fast the match will have to go for him to get at the magical 60% so you can land a perfect fart. This means you have to control the match for what you can call 1,5 stock. At that point you're already God and you shouldn't worry about losing in the first place. Obviously this same planning and logic can be applied to every percentage but the lower your opponent is the harder it is to make a correct estimation on when he's going to die. Back to the whiff-a-strong-fart-opponent-100%: you either choose to wait for a kill move or you choose to plan ahead and go for a perfect fart. Whichever suits your playstyle most, I suppose. I dislike going for a perfect fart because in my experience I just end up waiting for Godot and then I lose the match feeling like I haven't doing anything productive in a while.

Another situation for good measure: you whiff a perfect fart. I think this is an easy one, the only reason you will camp in this situation is in a super niche situation in which you were going to camp in the first place and you have nothing to lose by doing it. I can think of being at 200% against Falco when you're both on your last stock. 'Nothing to lose' really means nothing in this context, I'll refer to what I wrote earlier about losing efficiency because you're trying to be efficient. I reiterate: it's weird how regardless of what playstyle you actively choose for with Wario, you're always taking a risk with your decision not being optimal. This isn't Wario-specific but he suffers from this particularly much. This is another reason why Wario can be played in so many ways without any of them being convincingly better. It's also why he is bad: regardless of what you choose you're either going to have to be lucky that the match really goes the way you envision it to go or, sillier, you're going to have to better than your opponent in the first place.

Of course, if your opponents don't apply pressure and you can camp as much as you like none of the above really comes into play because there is zero risk involved.

Now that I'm spouting words and discussion is going: this subject made me think a lot of how difficult a subject killing is in general. Simple questions like 'is it preferable to have a select few strong killing moves or a multitude of weaker ones?' and 'how well does X character kill' are extremely complex and hard to provide solid answers for. Is Wario good at killing? You can argue uair, fsmash and fart but truth be told the latter two sometimes just don't land, there are no guaranteed setups and they tend to require an error on the opponent's part or consecutive reads on your part. I end up finding myself killing at 170% with nairs and bairs which is fine... I think? This is a tough one. The first 60% damage you do is the most important because it forms a necessity to kill someone in the first place with a perfect fart (let's just forget about gimps for now). The next 50-60% will get you to the point where uair and fsmash will kill. After that, you'll get a broader killing pool with every percentage you deal because of position dependent bairs, nairs, odd ftilts and eventually fthrow and offstage fairs. In this sense all the damage you do is working towards something.

Still, it feels like the marginal efficiency of the damage you do decreases the higher up you get because often enough you will end up killing your opponent at 170% with an fsmash or a uair anyway in which case all your hard work from 120 to 170% feels wasted. Quod non? I don't know, this is related to the previous subject of camping out for farts and it's equally dependent on your playstyle. If your playstyle is shield-orientated you will find yourself in the described situation often enough if you don't switch up your playstyle when you have your opponent in potential killing range. Opting to do so means settling for a more risky game because even though you're making more use of the damage you have dealt you may end up taking more punishment yourself in the progress simply because you cannot force a kill with the options you have as Wario. Willingly going for the 170% to end the stock with a weaker kill option is more safe but less potentially efficient. Again a hard decision you have to make, although I suspect most people don't actively think about this going into a match. I sure as hell don't do it 100% of the time. Not every character requires this sort of thought. MK for example cannot force a kill before 150% either (against Wario) but once Wario hits that point it kinda marks the beginning of a killing era in which every additional 10% taken gives MK one or more extra kill option.

In this sense MK doesn't have to plan anything out, he doesn't have to think about a risky, potentially more percent-efficient playstyle because 90% of the time he'll end up having to bring Wario to 150+ anyway. In this sense I perceive MK to be a decent killer because he can guarantee himself a kill starting from a certain percentage. I would even argue he's a better killer than Wario in the Wario-MK matchup because Wario rely on getting a kill ever (until 170, perhaps) because even nair, dair and bair require some sort of read and in any case cannot be forced. This is a major reason why the whole weight argument is null in my opinion: living long doesn't matter if your opponent lives equally long but damage you a billion times easier. With all this in mind I can add that the only worthwhile playstyle against MK is doing inconsistent stupid broken stuff like SHFF uairing over dtilts. If you don't land early kills you're not supposed to win the match and as said: you cannot force early kills.
 

xzx

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If Wario can run out the timer, he should do it. But that shouldn't really be the point in the first place.

Landing wafts are a hit-or-miss without really losing anything (well, of course the waft). They do nice damage too, even if they don't kill. I also tend to kill with bairs, nairs and ftilt more often than f-smash sometimes. Wario may have strong kill moves, like f-smash and waft, but they can be a pain to land. The only "true" kill move I find is up-air, but it gets staled too (for a good reason). I think Wario is an overrated killer, even if he has the moves. By now I have learned not to depend so much on wafts for killing anymore. If I hit with it then I see it as a big bonus. But wafts are so important against MK...
 

xzx

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The only change in the MU chart v3.0 on Wario's spectrum is the Yoshi MU, which changed from even to +1 Wario. Not only does that bother me (as I would say Yoshi has the advantage), but I still can't see why Wario has +2 against Lucas, for example. Btw, the MU chart v3.0 was a huge let down to me, as I think many MU have wrong ratios. (Like Sonic vs Marth. Even. Like seriously?) It was mostly a big failure.
 

Tesh

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Results have always shown Sonic to beat Marth of go even with him. People were just too stubborn to consider that the 5th worst in the game (where sonic was), was legitimately beating a top 10 character.
 

Tesh

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If you want to look at it that way. To be fair, the best Sonics kind of stopped playing before Mr R, Leon, Mikeneko started coming to NA, but NA Sonics have overhwhelmingly toppled NA Marths since the beginning and USA does have a few good Marths.
 

xzx

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Since when did Matchups got decided by tournament results, which is wrong in the first place?
 

Tesh

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Since when did Matchups got decided by tournament results, which is wrong in the first place?
seems to me that actual proof is better than theory whenever possible. results prove what theoretical outcomes are actually practical and most relevant to the matchup
 

Lord Chair

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They don't when the results involve people who don't play the game the way they should. Feel free to believe otherwise but if you're ever going to walk the academical path I'd advise you to reconsider your point of view.
 

Tesh

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who are you to say the best marths have been doing it wrong for 5 years?

what if I told you Sonics are playing the matchup wrong and still winning? What would that tell you? The problem with blind theorycraft is that anyone can just say anyone, especially if you are willing to completely discard results when they don't support your stance.
 

Tesh

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I can't think of a Marth in North America with a positive record against a notable Sonic.

I wasn't aware Raziek even had a Sonic in his region.

Not to sound like I'm talking down about anyone, but I'm mostly just talking about people like Mikehaze and Zex. I don't know of any good marths in mexico or canada.

I know Mr. R, Mikeneko and Leon are better, but I haven't seen any of them vs Masha, Espy or X. So you COULD turn out to be right, but results really do support my side.
 

Lord Chair

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Results don't support your side considering the results don't feature notable players. What's so hard to understand about that? Our best Wario consistently beats all active DDDs but that doesn't mean the MU is in Wario's favor, ain't rocket science.
 

Tesh

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k, the best marths in the country arent notable, i give up then
 

xzx

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If one should judge Matchups after results, then ZSS vs MK would be considered even now, which is wrooong.
 

Tesh

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Not really. The peak of the ZSS metagame has just surfaced and many MKs were not ready for it. Salem and Choco still have losing records against top MKs. Shortly after Apex, Salem basically stopped beating top MKs. He sure puts up a great fight and I could see the matchup being 0 or +1 for MK.

Even in the past, top ZSS mains had losing records against top MKs. Just another way results help us make sense of the theories.

A better example imo is Sonic/Lucario being only -2, when at top level play Sonic has never won the matchup EVER.

My stance might not have all the evidence (something like Espy/X vs Mr.r/Mikeneko/Leon), but your stance that Marth wins the matchup has basically nothing. Hell even in theory, breaking down Marth's style of spacing is one of Sonic's strongest areas.
 

Lord Chair

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Whose stance? By this time we're not defending Marth's advantage, rather the erroneous entity that is your logic.

Not like any of us know or want to know anything about Sonic.
 

Espy Rose

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Which is why your arguments will forever be of nothing but comedic value to me. Results support it, the discussion between the Sonic and Marth panel supports it, and your argument clearly doesn't care about one side of the argument. At this point, you're just being silly.

Tesh, X beat Lee Martin's Lucario back in MLG Dallas. Granted it was one match, and that it was years ago, it has happened.

:applejack:
 

Lord Chair

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I just said I wasn't even arguing any sort of theorycraft, only Tesh' incapability to think straight. Even then, I was never arguing with you so I'm rather puzzled as to why you even joined this discussion in the first place.

Regardless, I'm glad I've been able to provide to you with a source of entertainment. As said however: no need to bother me with particularities about Sonic matchups.
 

Espy Rose

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I'm not going to. It'd be pointless to change your mind because you're just one guy. No one would care. :applejack:
 

xzx

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I still laugh at the idea that Marth vs Sonic is even. I still laugh. Sonic doesn't have range nor killing power. Marth has those. Clearly -2 to Sonic if you ask me. Results is just between players (in most cases, but definetily not all!), Matchups are between characters. "What does character X has against character Y?" and vice versa.

One question to you, Tesh: What do you think about the Wario vs DDD Matchup? (Note that top Warios have beaten top DDDs.)
 

Tesh

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Chair, you dodge or completely ignore everything i have that refutes your claims of my poor logic. You said only bad marths lose to good sonics. I told you all the best Marths available have lost to the best sonics. If you believe results don't matter, then there isn't really much we can say to each other is there? You've admitted that you are proud to be ignorant about the subject so how about doing some research before you jump in (or something).

@Espy, yea I remembered that, but since it wasn't a full set, its hard to get the full scope of things. Back then it was definitely possible to get game 2 from Lucario with all the stages Sonic had. Not sure how __X__ managed that in any case.

@xzx, ike also has range and killing power. does he beat Sonic worse than Marth does? For that matter, marth isn't that strong. His kill power becomes respectable when he can tipper fresh moves. Even in his better matchups, tippers don't come easily without grab releases. Sonic will reliably kill marth with less effort through edgeguarding and/or simply doing more damage. He doesn't have much more range than Sonic where it counts most. It helps him follow up well on Sonic, but from a neutral or bad position, it doesn't bother Sonic at all.

Results come from players using characters (stages), and you have to consider all of these when evaluating a matchup. On paper (in theory), you can assume Ganondorf will be able to land 0-death combos on snake and even up the matchup. You could also try to analyze how certain grab releases and set ups affect a matchup. However, actual matches involving actual players show you how much each trait affects the matchup. I'm not contesting that marth has a sword or that he is a much better character than Sonic. I'm just saying that in this matchup, his strong suits are countered enough to even the matchup (or worse).

DDD vs Wario isn't something I know much about. I used Wario for a while, but I never fought a DDD with him. I've certainly heard about it being his worst matchup, but from what I've seen, it looks like a Wario willing to play as campy and boring as possible would be okay in the matchup. I've never watched a high level set of it though. Its not the type of matchup I'd want to watch. I know I'm gonna see a Wario camp out the win, or get greedy and get grabbed.
 

Espy Rose

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Any Marth or Sonic worth their weight has already discussed the matter. The result is on the new MU chart. :applejack:
 

xzx

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@xzx, ike also has range and killing power. does he beat Sonic worse than Marth does? For that matter, marth isn't that strong. His kill power becomes respectable when he can tipper fresh moves. Even in his better matchups, tippers don't come easily without grab releases. Sonic will reliably kill marth with less effort through edgeguarding and/or simply doing more damage. He doesn't have much more range than Sonic where it counts most. It helps him follow up well on Sonic, but from a neutral or bad position, it doesn't bother Sonic at all.

Results come from players using characters (stages), and you have to consider all of these when evaluating a matchup. On paper (in theory), you can assume Ganondorf will be able to land 0-death combos on snake and even up the matchup. You could also try to analyze how certain grab releases and set ups affect a matchup. However, actual matches involving actual players show you how much each trait affects the matchup. I'm not contesting that marth has a sword or that he is a much better character than Sonic. I'm just saying that in this matchup, his strong suits are countered enough to even the matchup (or worse).

DDD vs Wario isn't something I know much about. I used Wario for a while, but I never fought a DDD with him. I've certainly heard about it being his worst matchup, but from what I've seen, it looks like a Wario willing to play as campy and boring as possible would be okay in the matchup. I've never watched a high level set of it though. Its not the type of matchup I'd want to watch. I know I'm gonna see a Wario camp out the win, or get greedy and get grabbed.
I really hope you didn't say that Marth = Ike, because that was not what I meant. No, seriously, what can Sonic really do against Marth, other than camp? I bet Marth's fair completely outranges everything Sonic has. Marth can just wait there and relax until Sonic approaches, and then trying to outranging things with fair. Ike is even and not in Sonic's disadvantage because Sonic can get in Ike and then out. Sonic can't really do that as easily against Marth. When you mention Sonic edgeguarding Marth I can't help but disagreeing a lot because the only ones that can gimp a good Marth is MK, King Dedede, Mario and R.O.B. (with some effort), the rest of the cast can't really do much else but try to snatch the ledge from him after trying their best to actually gimp him (assuming that Marth's double jump is used up). Also, the damage dealt by Sonic is faaar less than what Marth deals and Sonic is always at a risk when trying to damage Marth. "He [Marth] doesn't have much more range than Sonic where it counts most." I'm not sure how I should read this, but I'm not even going to argue about something considering that range doesn't really matter in this Matchup.

Leaving Sonic vs Marth aside, the thing with putting Matchup ratios by looking at results shouldn't matter IMO. What if some player plays the MU incorrectly? Then shouldn't we have many wrong Matchups, like ZSS vs MK is even, or Wario vs King Dedede -1/0? That should not be considered, because it can be fatally wrong. I'm not either saying that we should just look at a Matchup and judge it theoretically, TAS-wise, because otherwise ICs's would have broken Matchups and Meta Knight being darn close to having at least +2 in every Matchup. Instead of that, a Matchup is decided by how both characters should play against each other, or at least that should be the reasoning if it isn't. But hey, it's actually really hard to say exactly how a Matchup should be played. That's why I think the reasoning "what Character X has against Character Y" is the best way to decide a Matchup, though it's not perfect (hence why I think Sonic has -2 against Marth. I do not mean that just because Marth has range and kill power while Sonic doesn't is the only factor that this Matchup is -2 to Sonic).

My point in asking you what you think about the Wario vs King Dedede Matchup was to see if you would say the Matchup is even/-1 to Wario, because with your logic it would kind of be. (On a side note, Wario's worst Matchup is Meta Knight, then Marth, then King Dedede, according to me.) I would recommend you to watch a money match between Glutonny and Atomsk (I think), which I believe is in the Wario Video thread. Glutonny played aggro, and still managed to win, without really camping or timing out. Why should the Matchup change to -1/0 to Wario just because some high level Wario beat a high level DDD? It's -2 for a reason. That's what I wanna tell you, Tesh. It's -2 for a reason, despite high level Warios can beat high level King Dededes.

Can we now let go of the discussion, since I have proven my point and you yours? Or do you want to have the "last word"? (Don't take anything I have written offensive, because that's not the point. I hope you have understood my point by now.)
 

Espy Rose

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Sonic's uair1 and bair outranges Marth fair, while up angled fsmash trades.
You seriously have no idea how much work Sonic makes Marth go through to land a hit, much less a KO.:applejack:
 

smashkng

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I don't see how Marth has a harder time punishing Sonic's commitment than viceversa. Plus Marth is a character who can get away unpunished a lot even by the fastest ground characters (like Fox or Sheik). Up angled Fsmash trading? Interesting. Still, we're talking about a 18 frame move that extends his hurtbox a lot, something Marth is good at abusing. Bair is kinda slow and using it stales one of Sonic's very few kill moves. And Uair Sonic to be airbone, which means if he misses the Uair he risks getting juggled. It can be ok to intercept Fairs, but also risky. I don't see how Sonic is too hard to juggle when he lacks a good Dair. Either way I think Sonic's weak punishing (especially when it comes to finishing) is enough for the MU not to be 0. Going for tippers is pretty damn safe, considering that's where you're the safest, am I not right?
 
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