Did Sakurai do a good job at evening out the competitive side of Brawl?

[Nao Hikari]

if you think about it, keeping the competitive play won't detract from the casual players, but it also won't bring new players in. From a marketing stand point, when you want to bring in new players you want them to pick up the game and think "wow! this is easy, AND fun to boot!" and then after playing the game just once, that casual player will most likely go out and buy the game. Thusly, mission accomplished, another game is sold, money is made, and we all keep moving on. It's all about the money, if I were a business man I'd probably do exactly what Sakurai did as well, seriously, I could give a flying **** about the current pool of players and what they want, I'd want to make a game that will bring in an even larger pool of players that are going to give me money.

 

[arrowhead]

casual players will draw their friends into the game and they'll all play casually, and have a great time.

other people may see advanced players playing and think "wow that looks fun"

nobody will learn about the competitive side of smash and say "i won't buy this game because there are people who play it competitively."

 

[Nao Hikari]

you don't need to know about the competitive side of the game in order to feel compelled to purchase it

 

[Dogenzaka]

keeping the competitive edge to the game won't detract from casual play, genius

Uhh yes it does. Why do you see so many casual players saying they finally will get into the competitive scene with Brawl?

They don't have to sore their thumbs by wavedashing with Fox and Falco every match now.

And obviously, Sakurai felt so, or he wouldn't have taken said mechanics out, or changed the gameplay.

"cheap" exploits hm? i can tell you probably weren't good at melee. anything to make the game more technically advanced isn't going to hurt. "nothing really changed"? have you even played melee?

Probably unlike you, I had Melee on pre-order for months before it came out and picked it up December 3rd, 2001 thank you very much. And no, it's still a smash game. The basics are there. It's not like some radically different series. You got your smash attacks, special attacks, grabs, shields, dodges, and aerial attacks. The point is to knock people off stage, and win. The best player will win. That has always been a Smash game, it's simply that Sakurai ironed out a few things he left in Melee, like a few advanced techniques. He felt the gameplay was too fast and hectic in Melee, which some might say it was, and so he slowed it down. At the expense of a few whiny competitive players, but the benefit of others as well.

you don't need to know about the competitive side of the game in order to feel compelled to purchase it

Yes that's another misconception.
It's like to some people if someone doesn't go to tournaments, win money, use advanced glitches/exploits/techniques, and FINAL FOXINATION their Melee copy to death, they obviously know nothing about Melee or are not deserving of participating in the game.

 

[sugarpoultry]

To answer to the first post. Yes, I believe he did, and its a good thing. Our friends find it more fun that they don't have to worry about all the advanced techniques that me and Buzz know. They don't enjoy it, but now, we are all on an equal level of playing. We all have the same potential to be good, and that is a very good thing I think.

Now, I laugh at the rest of the thread. Competitive Smash vs. Casual. Must these still go on? O_O

 

[Pink Reaper]

Uhh yes it does. Why do you see so many casual players saying they finally will get into the competitive scene with Brawl?

They don't have to sore their thumbs by wavedashing with Fox and Falco every match now.

And obviously, Sakurai felt so, or he wouldn't have taken said mechanics out, or changed the gameplay.

Your an idiot. He was saying that having competitive depth wont detract from casuals playing it CASUALLY. And in order to get into the competitive Brawl scene, Brawl would actually have to have some competitive depth. Since it doesn't, rather than allowing the Casuals to get into the competitive scene, Sakurai has forced competitives to only play on a casual level.

inb4****storm of people telling me Brawl is competitive, pros are good, etc.

 

[[Deuce]]

LOL agree with pink reaper

before bed ill just say that when I finally got to playing brawl extensively, the lack of wavedash/ l-cancel stuff didnt phase me much.. BUT from there you can start listing things from there..

its like they planned this all out, watching MLG vids and stuff to put a stomping on the pros lol

"1 take out that wavedashing bull****
2 that l-cancelling thing too
3 add a trip in there so they dont dash dance/chase people to continue combos
4 fast faller characters was a bad idea, people used it to become faster lets make em a all floaty
5 reduce the hit stun so combos can be broken out of
6 put in auto-sweetspot, so they can have a chance for once w/o getting hit"
all the character specific nerfs, etc etc etc -____-

BUT still trying to get good with brawl..

 

[JesiahTEG]

Technical level is not the only judge of skill in this game, and there's also still a decent amount of tech to be had in it. It's just that the INTENDED gameplay is not completely destroyed by the new technical stuff that is found. There are plenty of mind games to be had, and it still rewards smart play above all else. Melee may have also done that, but it rewarded the technical player the most. You had to be smart WITH the technical stuff. Brawl is a much better game.

As for skill gaps not being as big because of that, that's completely untrue. I've destroyed everyone I've fought so far. There is still plenty of room for skill. I win because I play smart. Other people can do it too.

No dude, lol. There's more room in Melee to be smart due to the technical depth of the game. Example:

In melee, to avoid getting shieldgrabbed, you had a few options. You could space your attacks well, attack into spot dodge, attack into dash away, attack into jab, short hop waveland backwards and punish...There's really a lot of ways. Why? Because of L cancelling. L cancelling allows you to have more options...The more options there are, the smarter you have to be to become unpredictable, and punish to the best of your abilities.

In Brawl, because there's no L cancelling, all you can do is space your attacks well. You now have one option from which to choose from...You really can't argue...Melee takes more brains.

Now...Let's say a player has been playing for 3 years, and has mastered every possible way to avoid getting shieldgrabbed in Melee. You are a noob, and the only way you can avoid getting shieldgrabbed is by L cancelling into a spotdodge. You sir will get owned because your opponent knows that you can only do one thing, so he/she will just wait for your spotdodge and grab you. The skill gap between the 3 year player and you, the noob, is very big. It's obvious that the 3 year player is much better, and harder to punish.

In Brawl, someone has been playing for 3 years, and has mastered the only way to avoid getting shield grabbed...Spacing well. You are a noob, and the only way you can avoid getting shieldgrabbed is by spacing well. The skill gap is now even regardless of how much time and effort the player for 3 years has put into Brawl, because the game just isn't deep enough to reward hard work.

Now, let's say two players are really good. They have discovered a lot about the game, pretty much everything, and they are playing vs each other. Essentially, it's going to come down to a guessing game, because there's just not that many options to cover.

Eggm is right, the game just isn't competitive enough to allow some players to be much better than other players.

Btw, you're an idiot dude.

/smash lessons to noob

 

[kingofping4]

I don't see why such a large skill gap is necessary. If you're better it doesn't matter by how much. 3 stocking someone is a win just as 1 stocking someone is a win. The way I see it, the melee pros know they're better at melee, so they assume they should be better at brawl. The fact that they lose pisses them off, especially to a "noob."

We've gone from the level of chess, where it takes years to become really good at it, to the level of rock paper scissors, where just about anyone can win at any time.

So now you don't have any justification for spending long periods of time practicing this video game. When your friends said "all you ever do is play melee" you could just reply "i have to practice my ATs so I can win this upcoming tournament." Now if they were to say "all you ever do is play brawl" you don't have anything to defend yourself other than "it's fun" and you're mad because the only fun you have with the game is making other people look worse at it than you.

Just like the world series of poker, there will always be pros at the final table, but there will also be a couple noobs that took down some pros on their way to the final table. Upsets make tournaments exciting, just ask any NCAA basketball fan.

The mindset of a competitor is "I'll win because I'm better." When you lose, you can either say "well he was better today" or you can say "wtf?! I'm better than that noob I hate this game BAWWW"

The better player will win. If that's the main thing pros are concerned about, I don't see why this concept isn't being accepted.

 

[Fletch]

People who trained with Melee and expected to apply their skills to Brawl are idiots, when it's been known for nearly two years about Brawl's physical mechanics being different.

You couldn't "learn" for Brawl. It hasn't even been out a week. People just got it. NOW is the time to train for the Brawl competitive scene.



Are you serious? You're desiring cheap exploits to be found? Easy? I'm sure if you played someone like Ken you'd still lose. Nothing really changed, except wavedashing, a couple of exploits, and a little more floaty gameplay. The game still works like it used to, knock the opponent off the stage, and the best player will win. The best player will always win. You act like no matter what happens you will never lose or something. Maybe you're playing against CPU opponents, but the game isn't laughably easy if you play against real, good people.

First off, Melee skill transfers over quite well to Brawl, as evidenced by the tournaments thus far and the superior play of the Melee pros. Your statements also contradict one another; you claim that playing Melee to prepare for Brawl does not work, yet then claim in your next paragraph that nothing has changed and I would still lose to "someone like Ken" (of course I would, I never claimed I could even come close to beating someone like him or any good pro for that matter).

 

[Dogenzaka]

Brawl would actually have to have some competitive depth.

It does, but you're ignorant, so obviously it doesn't seem that way to you.

First off, Melee skill transfers over quite well to Brawl, as evidenced by the tournaments thus far and the superior play of the Melee pros.

This is true, but I should have clarified. I meant specifically training for Melee advanced techs, which some are not present in Brawl.

you claim that playing Melee to prepare for Brawl does not work, yet then claim in your next paragraph that nothing has changed and I would still lose to "someone like Ken" (of course I would, I never claimed I could even come close to beating someone like him or any good pro for that matter).

Once again, I should have clarified. I meant training for those advanced techniques in Melee, that aren't present in Brawl, thinking you could use them to your advantage.

 

[Unsmarty]

The better player will win. If that's the main thing pros are concerned about, I don't see why this concept isn't being accepted.

Amazing.
I've found someone on this forum who makes sense......

Brawl sucks and has no competitive depth because you cant wavedash?
Cut the crap.

One player in a match will always be better than the other and therefore that player will win.
It simply won't be based off of whether one player is more adept at L-Canceling and wavedashing than the other.
Strategies, timing, reaction and smarts will be what separates the good players from the bad. Same as always.

 

[Firesoul1]

You so sure about this? I hope you're right, Brawl needs something to make the game competitive because right now it's laughably easy.

Well how long did it take for melee to get competitive?
remember, that brawl is technically a new game so first
we must know the learning curve.



Agree 100%.

Me too, the Wii is built around ease of use and fun so this
practice is also extended to the games. In this case, Brawl
is one of those games.

 

[HugS]

Brawl has been dumbed down. It is hardly a competitive title.

Sakurai dumbed this game down to a point where, contrary to popular belief, the winning style requires LESS thinking and LESS physical ability. How is this not clear to some of you? Oh right, because you never really "thought" in melee much...
You just blamed the opponent's adeptness with AT's as the reason for why you were losing.

 

[Pink Reaper]

HugS you cheating *******, I heard you won at UCLA. GG man.

 

[Nao Hikari]

i don't see how winning in brawl requires less thinking then in melee. I think that both games just require their own specific thinking style in order to get a win. In melee it was which AT would be best in what situation in order to get the opponent out, and now in brawl it's what approach would be best in order to get the opponent out. But both ways of thinking still come across the same conundrums "will they dodge? will they jump? will they attack?" it's all the same, just different style. And physical ability...okay so you don't have to press a combination of buttons as much or as fast as in melee, but you still gotta press them at the right times.

 

[Fletch]

Brawl has been dumbed down. It is hardly a competitive title.

Sakurai dumbed this game down to a point where, contrary to popular belief, the winning style requires LESS thinking and LESS physical ability. How is this not clear to some of you? Oh right, because you never really "thought" in melee much...
You just blamed the opponent's adeptness with AT's as the reason for why you were losing.

HugS is the man. Seriously, all these awesome players are coming in and saying the same thing, yet everyone that has joined in the last 2 months just keep denying it. See a pattern here?

 

[Ryusiodo]

I'm pretty sure if L-Cancel was a glitch they wouldn't "accidentally" put it into two games of the series.

 

[Zink]

ugh.
brawl is so campy, all you need to do to win is spam projectiles and stand still. you can't approach from the air, because that's a garaunteed shield-> ANYTHING OOS. you can't appraoch from the ground because ground moves are even slower and you trip part of the time anyway. if your opponent messes up and you DO land a hit, there's still nothing you can do, because all he needs to do is jump away and you've gained absolutely nothing. even if you can knock him off the edge you can't edgegaurd anymore and auto-sweetspot makes recoveries cake. a defender has zero motivation to attack, at all. he has nothing to gain from it. because of this all the characters with good projectiles and throws like pit/olimar will dominate. brawl will be a turtle-fest.

 

[TheKneeOfJustice]

I was fine with melee being replaced by a newer game. The title was exceptionally long lived. I however, was not pleased that it had to be replaced by a game like this. Brawl is empty and slow. There won't be much of a variation in competitive styles a year down the road. Everyone will be camping, not worrying about short non-killing combos, and Brawl will not be nearly as long lived as Melee was in the competitive scene.

 

[crazygoose]

So what are you saying, Hugz? That the more skilled player won't win in Brawl? What a crock.

Hugz, you're a joke. So is your miniscule circle that you run in on these boards. Did you ever think that the reason the "pros" are mostly pro-Melee is because they're all whiney children that don't want to give up their minor glory in a new game?

Let it go. Neither game is "more competitive" by nature, the fanbase decides that. I can tell you that if you're just going to roll over and die (which would be nice) you'll never be anything in Brawl because the hardcore players will leave you behind as we work on our actual skill.

 

[Radical Dreamer]

So what are you saying, Hugz? That the more skilled player won't win in Brawl? What a crock.

Hugz, you're a joke. So is your miniscule circle that you run in on these boards. Did you ever think that the reason the "pros" are mostly pro-Melee is because they're all whiney children that don't want to give up their minor glory in a new game?

Let it go. Neither game is "more competitive" by nature, the fanbase decides that. I can tell you that if you're just going to roll over and die (which would be nice) you'll never be anything in Brawl because the hardcore players will leave you behind as we work on our actual skill.

Lol, good luck working on your "actual skill." HugS will still **** you in Brawl or Melee. Then you'll see who the joke is.

 

[Senshuu]

I like how Brawl has a more character-skill-centered system of combat (aka causing your characters to wavedash won't get you a win this time...'cause it's not there). The way I see it, it could be very competitive! Well, unless you like your old ways.

 

[Fletch]

So what are you saying, Hugz? That the more skilled player won't win in Brawl? What a crock.

Hugz, you're a joke. So is your miniscule circle that you run in on these boards. Did you ever think that the reason the "pros" are mostly pro-Melee is because they're all whiney children that don't want to give up their minor glory in a new game?

Let it go. Neither game is "more competitive" by nature, the fanbase decides that. I can tell you that if you're just going to roll over and die (which would be nice) you'll never be anything in Brawl because the hardcore players will leave you behind as we work on our actual skill.

Watch some of HugS video. He is still amazing at Brawl. It's unbelievable how stupid you are.

 

[LouisLeGros]

Is it just me, or do all the pro-brawlers use wave dashing as their main point in this competition debate?

Melee lending itself to be more competitive and rewarding to better skilled players then Brawl is more then simply the AT.

Can they defend the hit stun, shielding and etc that was changed in Brawl that seem to limit the "skillful" aspect of smash bros?

 

[FalconPunch]

Of course they can't. They don't understand things deeper than just playing the game.

 

[DSM01]

I think that Sakuri's goal was to make the game "fun for all." The thing is, the people who really had the most fun in Melee were the competitive players, because the game was harder to master. Brawl is fairly easy to grasp, which makes it fun for casual players, but competitive players are already complaining. Overall, it looks like his plan backfired, going from Melee being fun for competitive players to Brawl being fun for casual players.

That's just right now though. I'm sure that in time we'll discover many advanced techniques to improve the quality of the game, just as we did in Melee.

 

[Senshuu]

Overall, it looks like his plan backfired, going from Melee being fun for competitive players to Brawl being fun for casual players.

There're more casual players than competitive players. So "mission accomplished" applies to a large degree, at least, if it's not an all-encompassing statement.

For serious, I didn't see a single person doubting the fun of this game until I joined these forums. Nor could you walk up to any person on the street who's a Nintendo fan, explain the basic premise of this game (and the things that make it unique from the previous two), and expect them to say "That's not fun!"

Not to say this installment isn't for competitive players. Like it's been said, you'll find a way. Or if not, you'll go back to Melee and miss out on rocking with Diddy and Ike and Snake...and so forth.

I just realized this post might not say anything useful in this thread. :x Oh well.

 

[paper_crane]

There're more casual players than competitive players. So "mission accomplished" applies to a large degree, at least, if it's not an all-encompassing statement.

For serious, I didn't see a single person doubting the fun of this game until I joined these forums. Nor could you walk up to any person on the street who's a Nintendo fan, explain the basic premise of this game (and the things that make it unique from the previous two), and expect them to say "That's not fun!"

Not to say this installment isn't for competitive players. Like it's been said, you'll find a way. Or if not, you'll go back to Melee and miss out on rocking with Diddy and Ike and Snake...and so forth.

I just realized this post might not say anything useful in this thread. :x Oh well.

I don't see why Sakurai couldn't have designed a game that would have satisfied both casual and competitive players. Melee appealed to both audiences because you could be playing for the first time and having a blast in a 4-way FFA with items on Very High, but the game also had a lot of depth if you wanted to dig for it. Melee's competitive potential had no effect on the casual player's ability to enjoy the game, so why did Sakurai feel obligated to remove everything that made Melee deep when he designed Brawl?

 

[SuperLink9]

As far as I've played, the matches seem a lot closer in general, though I havn't had any items off matches yet. I think the Final Smashes really can help with evening. I also havn't had any 1 on 1s.

Items on... 4 way FFA... yeah, maybe it's too early for me to have a view on this But as far as FFA + items goes, most matches seem more close.

 

[crazygoose]

I don't see why Sakurai couldn't have designed a game that would have satisfied both casual and competitive players. Melee appealed to both audiences because you could be playing for the first time and having a blast in a 4-way FFA with items on Very High, but the game also had a lot of depth if you wanted to dig for it. Melee's competitive potential had no effect on the casual player's ability to enjoy the game, so why did Sakurai feel obligated to remove everything that made Melee deep when he designed Brawl?

He DID design a game for both groups, its just that the competitive group wants it to be something it isn't.

The problem here is that people are looking at the game from the standpoint of what was removed from Melee, not from the standpoint of what was put in.

In the week I've owned the game I've improved considerably. The game's depth reveals itself to the people that dig for it. Thats why I'm cleaning up online right now, because I dug and found ways to use my characters that work.

Try it sometime instead of writing off Brawl as shallow.

 

[Noypi_GjD]

There're more casual players than competitive players. So "mission accomplished" applies to a large degree, at least, if it's not an all-encompassing statement.
True statement, there were plenty of casuals in line for brawl at my EBgames.

For serious, I didn't see a single person doubting the fun of this game until I joined these forums.
I'm sure all a lot of player believe that Brawl is fun, I agree that it is. However, the game is simply, not easy to get used to. I have a lot of non-SWF friends who played brawl and they say that they dislike the overall slowness of the game after playing

Nor could you walk up to any person on the street who's a Nintendo fan, explain the basic premise of this game (and the things that make it unique from the previous two), and expect them to say "That's not fun!"
"The game is slower, has random tripping, annoying and tedious adventure mode, and a lot of annoying useless gimmicks."
Its all based on the tone you give it =D.

Not to say this installment isn't for competitive players. Like it's been said, you'll find a way. Or if not, you'll go back to Melee and miss out on rocking with Diddy and Ike and Snake...and so forth.
I really wished they tweaked a few things about Brawl to make it a bit more competitive. I see a lot of potential with many of the new characters. Like you said: Diddy, Ike, Snake, Olimar... would be nice to see in competitive smash.

I just realized this post might not say anything useful in this thread. :x Oh well.

Hahah game's fun factor =/= competitiveness =D

 

[Sliq]

That he did. And frankly, I love Sakurai for that.

I hope you get AIDS and slowly and painfully die.

 

[batsman415]

The problem is that the competitive players are all to busy complaining about Brawl "not being competitive" rather than honing their skills or finding the advanced techniques they love so much.

 

[Ojanya]

Everyone I know personally that uses advanced techniques in melee only did it to show off. It was their way of saying "I'm better than you because I spend time perfecting these things that you don't even bother with."

And I accepted that. I never cared enough about the competition to bother spending the necessary time to perfect those techs. I tried, but I got bored and felt like I was taking the fun out of the game because practicing those techs was not fun.

So what I see now is people don't have an easy way to brag that they're better than anyone else because they can't show off their advanced techs. Now they have to prove they're better in an actually pretty balanced and level field. So now when you win, it's because you're better at the game as a whole, not just better at the techniques that were found from "breaking the game engine."

To clarify, I'm not considering tiers here. In a Marth v Marth in melee, if one used advanced techs and the other didn't, the user would win. The non-user can't compete because he either can't use or doesn't know about these techniques and this puts him at a disadvantage. In brawl, pretty much anything you see your opponent do, you can do as well. I see this as leading to the evolution of fights while they happen, and will eventually create more competition as almost anyone thinks they can come in and win.

We won't see as much "elitism" between casuals and competitives, because everyone can be either or even both. So when you beat a casual he can't say it's just because "you used those cheap tricks/glitches/techniques" and when you lose to a casual you can't say it's because you didn't have your techniques. The winner is going to be the better player, just like it was in melee.

So you can spend your hours/days/weeks practicing brawl, but really all that gets you is an edge in experience because the guy who plays twice a week can still find all the "techs" that you found.

Winners will win because they play this game for what it is. Losers will lose because they play this game for what it is, just not as well as the winner plays. Whiners will lose because they play this game while wishing they were playing melee.

Pure ignorance. You're saying that they were at a disadvantage because they didn't want to take time to learn. If you don't put time into ANYTHING you do in life, you won't be successful at it. End of story.

 

[Donkey_Kong]

lol i'm going to ignore every single bit of new and exciting content that Brawl has to offer and stick to an older and obsolete version of the same game just because i can cancel animations faster.

 

[Cronux]

lol i'm going to ignore every single bit of new and exciting content that Brawl has to offer and stick to an older and obsolete version of the same game just because i can cancel animations faster.

lol u ***s sure got told

 

[NES n00b]

Who are the real ***es? The people who get mocked for preferring another game? Or the people who mock them for it?

Seriously, why am I an *** because I like Melee more? No wonder SRK thinks so badly about the Smash community.

 

[Donkey_Kong]

lol i dont know, because it's the same game?

It's the same mechanics, with better graphics, new stages, many of the OLD stages, many of the OLD items (not like that matters to you), almost all of the old characters, and at least ten-plus new ones.

It would be different if it was an actual evolution or entirely different, like the transition from Street Fighter 2 to 3, but hey, guess what? It's not anything like those. You're just whining because you can't move .5 frames faster than your usual running speed.

Lern 2 adapt, scrub.

 

[Cronux]

lol i dont know, because it's the same game?

It's the same mechanics, with better graphics, new stages, many of the OLD stages, many of the OLD items (not like that matters to you), almost all of the old characters, and at least ten-plus new ones.

It would be different if it was an actual evolution or entirely different, like the transition from Street Fighter 2 to 3, but hey, guess what? It's not anything like those. You're just whining because you can't move .5 frames faster than your usual running speed.

Lern 2 adapt, scrub.

LOOOOOL EVEN MORE TOLD