Did I move too fast? Thoughts on Marths evolution

[Emblem Lord]

And what C.J said...i posted my best work in the GENERAL forums i.e the forums pertaining to EVERYONE not just Marth.

I sought to change the way people viewed and played the game. To apply terminology and reasoning to the situations we seen in smash that lead to victory.

I would dare to say before I posted that few people actually talked about the game in those terms. Alot of people played a reactive game merely responding to situations instead of proactively seeking ways to control the stage and their opponent.

This is somewhat off topic but I will FOREVER be grateful to brawl because it taught smash players the dynamics of fighting games because alot of the technical stuff from melee was gone.

C.J - I made a thread called Marths weaknesses where I essentially trashed him for all the things I knew he sucked at. If that doesnt show that I dont think people should buy into the idea that Marth isnt perfect then I dunno what will. I ALWAYS tried to be realistic about Marth. Marth is an awesome char. He has weaknesses. Most chars do. Cept MK really but thats cuz he is poorly designed. Marths weaknesses however are not crippling. He has no horrid flaw that holds him back. He is not Snake with overpowering strengths and a few crippling weaknesses.

If you lose with Marth then 99% of the time you know it was because you lack skill. He is strong enough to win but not strong enough to carry you.

btw the other 1% of the time is nonsense like IC infinite or nana locks and stuff thats huge reward low risk.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Different characters use different ledge traps. Your post doesn't make sense.

Also, Marth's ledge traps are broken and more destructive than most other characters'.

First sentence is the only correct statement in that post.

They are not marth exslusive but I would say he excels at putting people there

It's not that simple though. Even ignoring the exaggeration of Marth 'exceling' at putting opponents at the ledge rather than being plain good at it, you still have to take into account that the reward Marth gets isn't particularly great. Moreover though, Marth himself gets exploited pretty badly once he's put into that situation. While it's true that ledge treps are a powerful tool for Marth my point still remains that they are even more powerful a tool *against* Marth.

Moved in the wrong direction? And what exactly was the wrong direction? Talking about how a char limits their opponent, maximizes reward, etc...this is the wrong direction?

The results do not match the facts. You've come to wrong conclusions.

Gheb, I'm aware they're not Marth-only concepts.
[...]

The bold is much more important to respond to:

They do but they are not Marth-only concepts. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that ledge traps are actually the most powerful tool *against* Marth and while I can't think of a single match-up that improved particularly because of ledge traps I can think of a couple that became *worse* for Marth because of it.

This is just plain stupid. For the Marth theorists to be "right" they don't have to come into the thread and say that they're using theorists' ideas. We can just look at their playstyle, see if what they're doing matches up with what theorists say, and empirically use it as evidence of the principles being applied correctly.

What you fail to mention is that what the theorists said has not matched what happened in reality. For example: You/they have predicted that in order for Marth to successfully compete at a high level he has to play particularly safe, shutting down characters with his 'superior' range and not risk using 'unsafe' moves. This, however, has never happened anywhere close to the way it was 'supposed' to happen. The Marth players that followed this approach either had trouble playing consistently well or never managed to become good to begin with. It were the Marth players that remained largely unaffected by those theories that found a way to break through to the top - each of them in their own way but none in the way predicted by the theorists.

The 'evidence' you talk about does not exist - the evidence that *does* exist shows that what you've predicted didn't come true. So my point is far from stupid.

 

[Emblem Lord]

The reward you get from a trap depends on what your opponent did and how you choose to respond. There is no preset reward.

Also Marth is good at not getting trapped in the first place so yes he is weak vs them, he is better at putting other chars in them then vice versa save for MK, diddy and thats pretty much it. Marths mobility, range and spacing is what lets him do well with this kind of gameplay. Also Marth being weak to traps doesnt take away from him being strong at setting them up or taking advantage of them. What exactly are you trying to prove by stating something I myself said early on in his metagame?

Also it didnt effect his matches? His ability to trap is the main reason why Snakes think Marth takes that match is why several chars that Marth might lose too otherwise, he ends up going even with like DK for example. DK has a hard time dealing with Marths ability to put DK in bad situations and keep him there.


Also all Marths use traps to a degree so the results do not refute me at all. Maybe the overall playstyle conflicts with my vision but the intricacies of those riskier Marth playstyles still have a controlling aspect to their gameplay. Marth is a control character by nature due to the way his moves work. This is unavoidable in his gameplay once you reach a certain level.

I think you are wording your points very poorly nor have you refuted me.

BTW those riskier play styles are a double edged sword. They net wins just as quickly as they net losses. Im all for intelligent risks. But unneccasary gambles when you have advantage? Foolishness and you are intelligent enough to know it.

 

[Lord Chair]

Ramin plays according to the rules. So does Mikehaze. So does Mikeneko. Ramin quit playing like a ****** who wins solely based on reads somewhere in 2009. Leon has been edging towards an efficient playstyle as well.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Actually gheb you know what...lets back up.

I just reread that part about Marths reward not being that good.

Really? Man you are so much smarter then this I need to tear you a new ***hole out of respect.

Marth traps you and if the Marth is good and this is what you always assume then guess what? There are only three scenarios.

A) Marth gets a kill

B) Marth gets in damage and the situation is reset and now opponent must guess again OR Marth gets damage and the opponent is put in a diff trap but they are still in a bad position.

C) Opponent guesses right/gets lucky and gets out but they are now at nuetral so Marth risked nothing.

And in some situations like a ledge trap the only way certain chars can get out is if they take a huge risk which leaves them open even more in which case the chances of C occuring are that much lower.

How are A and B not good rewards?

Yeah...think about it. You sounded really really silly with that and I almost didnt believe you typed it. You have always been an anti-marth forum warrior but try to be objective at least. That part of your post made zero sense.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Chair, how many times have I told you that I don't respond to your troll baits already?

A) Marth gets a kill

B) Marth gets in damage and the situation is reset and now opponent must guess again OR Marth gets damage and the opponent is put in a diff trap but they are still in a bad position.

C) Opponent guesses right/gets lucky and gets out but they are now at nuetral so Marth risked nothing.

That's the standard scenario when it comes to ledge traps. Every ledge trap - no matter whether it's exeuted by Diddy Kong, MK, Snake, DDD or whoever - leaves those three options to be dealt with. The problem is that the procentual reward for B) isn't that great for Marth and A) doesn't occur a lot in general.
And once again you do not acknowledge that when Marth is on the ledge he is moreso in trouble than a bunch of characters who either have better options to get from the ledge onstage or can avoid being stuck on the ledge the ledge to begin with. You just cherry pick the points you don't like and take them out of context. Why else would you point out how good his ledge traps are when I already agreed that he's pretty good at it - why don't you argue my point about Marth being pretty damn *** on the ledge [especially after up-B]?

My point is that you didn't 'move too fast'. You simply explained certain tactics that Marth can use and that other characters can use as well. It turned out that those tactics are effective to use with Marth but even more effective to use *against* Marth. You didn't overburden the Marth players with your theories and ideas - they just didn't turn out the way you thought they would.

Edit: Your backhanded comments about me sounding 'really, really silly' don't help your points either. Try to understand before you judge, oh mighty one.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I said twice I was the first on the Marth boards to say Marth is bad on the ledge.

What else is there for me to say. But it doesnt effect what we are talking about.

How Marth should be played and why. How does him being bad on the ledge take away from him being good at messing people up on the ledge?

It's like you are stating a flaw to simple detract from what he is good at. You made a point that I made years ago that doesnt take away from what he is.

Are you trying to say I didnt tell Marths how to deal with his problems? You would be a liar or just not observant. I made a thread talking about his weaknesses and advocated discussion about them and Steel made a thread specifically about the ledge. What marth does to get opponents there and keep them there and how to deal with it when he is there. He consulted me for that guide and about 75% of that guide is actually a convo we had on AIM.

So yeah...WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

You have no evidence and/or you are flat out lying? You said I didnt acknowledge your point when I did in my previous post. Heck I acknowledged it before you yourself probably even knew about it in 08'.

Also who puts Marth on the ledge consistently other then other top tiers which makes sense since they are top tiers. Dedede? ok. So thats what? 4 chars. The game has over 35 chars. Marth being in the top 5 for best overall trap game is darn good.

Also dont down play the reward scenarios. ESAM does the same stuff and its how he gets kills. Diff char but same concept. He doesnt get alot of outright kills either but he gets tons of reset scenarios and he racks up the damage. The gameplay method WORKS.

Marth players specifically seem to just need to apply it and from watching Mikenekos results it works well with Marth too.

And you did sound silly. I made an observation. If you don't like it then dont sound silly. Simple, no? Just like if I were to call you a liar right now this would also be an accurate observation.

Also just for proof.

Marth's weakness thread - http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=183759

Steels ledge trap thread - http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=200150

Your move sir.

Also this further disproves your point that I didnt just focus on his positives. The Marth boards knew what made him great and we also knew his problems.

 

[Mr-R]

You guys wanna know what's funny to me.
If you guys spend your time actually playing the game instead of the time you were "theory crafting" here on the boards, you'd all be top players by now haha

Other than neo, do you really think me, mike, leon or mikeneko were reading/theory crafting or play according to the "metagame" in 2009/2010 ? nope we were playing the game every single day and practiced as much as we could.
No offense emblem lord ,you might have created or boosted marths metagame but like gheb kinda said, none of the current top players ( again other then neo ) actually read most of this stuff, cause at the end of the day it all still comes down to experience which 99 % of you still lack

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Well Ramin, I think you might have misunderstood the intention behind my posts but I'll leave it at that now because in the end you are right anyway.

 

[Emblem Lord]

You might not read it, but you do alot of what I say which adds credence to my points. Theory stops being theory the moment its applied. Eventually negative exp will lead one to an optimal playstyle. Which is why you probably felt you didnt have to read it. Of course there are other factors as well.

Nothing is that simple. For example one might not read something because they dont learn that way. Simply reading or discussing is not the optimal way they learn and internalize information. They learn by doing and seeing the results.

But you did say one thing that I liked...you need to play the game.

That works for me.

 

[Mr-R]

Well Ramin, I think you might have misunderstood the intention behind my posts but I'll leave it at that now because in the end you are right anyway.

I didn´t, that´s why I put the ´´kinda´´ before all of that haha

You might not read it, but you do alot of what I say which adds credence to my points. Theory stops being theory the moment its applied. Eventually negative exp will lead one to an optimal playstyle. Which is why you probably felt you didnt have to read it. Of course there are other factors as well.

Nothing is that simple. For example one might not read something because they dont learn that way. Simply reading or discussing is not the optimal way they learn and internalize information. They learn by doing and seeing the results.

But you did say one thing that I liked...you need to play the game.

That works for me.

Oh I wasn´t trying to discredit anything you said, I actually agree with your idea of how marth should be played. But even if you fully understand how a character works and how he´s supposed to be played. If you can´t transfer that into actual game play, it is not even worth discussing or making threads about it

 

[Lord Chair]

It's still worth discussing about if that's what you like doing.

 

[Mr-R]

Hey if you like doing it then who am I to advise you do to it less ! Just don't expect to improve any time soon

 

[Dr Peepee]

it seems to take a rare breed to both talk and implement theory at a high level from what I have seen.

 

[MasterOfGalaxies]

I'm pretty terrible at this game. But I still frequent these boards, because I like the theories behind the game, and have found they apply to fighting in general. Reading these threads has helped me spar IRL better. There's a certain amount of practice that is required to be at the top in any sort of fighting, game or not, but to really be good at something, I've found an understanding of the theory of it all is what separates a well-practiced really good player/fighter from a truly amazing and stellar player/fighter.

 

[Dogg/Naoki/Suzaku]

No, you did not move too fast. Implementing theory is one thing, but performing on a high level on a consistent basis is another. The problem is that other than the top Marths, players who main Marth do not practice enough or are not motivated to reach the next level.

 

[Ayce God]

^ this is a flat out lie.

 

[En.Ee.Oh]

1. I pretty much never read anything EL posted.

2. EL you are giving yourself far too much credit for pushing Marth's metagame forward, especially in an earlier since.

I won't go in to it because arguing amounts to nothing but this thread seems pompous as phuck.

 

[Emblem Lord]

its not pompous. I didnt say I made Marth. I said I contributed heavily to shaping his early metagame.

you didnt read anything I posted. You didnt have too. We talked directly about plenty of stuff regarding marth.

 

[Mr Toast]

What counts is the vast collection of knowledge that was left on this board. I came here to a huge mass of reading material that taught me so much about the character and even the game in general. Every time i pick up the game I apply what I have read here. For this, I tip my hat to anyone who has done any part.

Edit:

After reading through more posts in here I'd like to add that I significantly improved after spending time on this board. Not only based on the content of what I read, but all of this truly encouraged me to delve into the game and to study it at a higher level. Mr - R's post got me to make this edit, so that i could enlighten the fact that there are people out there who don't just read and expect to become better. I read, sure, but I also went in, got an equally dedicated friend or two, practiced every day, applying new concepts I've come across and making new observations of my own (which was something i was inspired to do by researchers here). Hopefully I've done a decent job conveying this message. lol

 

[Blistering Speed]

1. I pretty much never read anything EL posted.

2. EL you are giving yourself far too much credit for pushing Marth's metagame forward, especially in an earlier since.

I won't go in to it because arguing amounts to nothing but this thread seems pompous as phuck.

do you really think me, mike, leon or mikeneko were reading/theory crafting or play according to the "metagame" in 2009/2010 ? nope we were playing the game every single day and practiced as much as we could.
No offense emblem lord ,you might have created or boosted marths metagame but like gheb kinda said, none of the current top players ( again other then neo ) actually read most of this stuff

It's a shame Leon and Mikeneko aren't also here, just to let Emblem Lord know how insignificant his metagame influence really was.

 

[Emblem Lord]

It really seems like..people are missing the point of this thread.

but thats ok as it has run its course.

 

[ScareMl]

can we just...stop?

 

[∫unk]

metaknight is top tier

 

[Albert.]

I love Neo and Junk.

Also, who the F^ck is Mikeneko? I'm really out of the loop.

 

[Tennet]

A japanese marth that is very good.