DGames Summer Mafia Bash - Day 2 Begins. Deadline Day 2 begins - Deadline 8:00 A.M. CST Monday 6/24

[Pythag]

#HBC | Mac Sorry, I didn't mean all you have. You have posted about RanVTom.
Tom has not left my radar. I think I'm on your side of this now.

 

[ranmaru]

Pythag Nice find. With the last bit, Kary stating that shows that there was no real reason for him to be so antagonistic towards Lore, he is just blowing air for the sake of the blow up. I don't care when Kary jokes but I still have a concern with Kary not ever interacting with me, but with his concern of Maven.

 

[ranmaru]

I don't understand how you re-read Maven's only post and changed your read completely.





Ran what do you think of Nabe? Because frankly you are tunneling on Maven right now.

I don't know if that's because you're town and you're just being daft, or because you were in the spotlight earlier and you need to push on someone else.

This is also a bad look on Kary if Lore/Maven flips scum.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

#HBC | Mac

That JTB vote was a placeholder. I expected it to be the wagon that carried the most steam from the previous day and any vote is better than no vote. Later I decided to see if I couldn't drum up an FF wagon, then Gorf posted his case and my interactions with Lore from the UP claim debacle cemented me on a Lore vote.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Ran. I don't think I can say anything that will get your tinfoil hat off wrt my slot, so I think I'm done trying now. I think pinning me on a scum team with Lore and Kary is ridiculous and it looks like the major thing that has your eye is the fact that Kary is a piece of anatomy rhyming with can't.

If something I can address will help you to actually read me better, ask. If you're looking to hold onto a scum read because maybe I'm running a master plan, then I can't help you. I've shot teammates as scum and claimed Vig before. I've done orchestrated busses. I'm a madman. The lionshare of games I play like a sane person though.

And going through all of my games, I have NEVER orchestrated a plan based on a faked emotional outburst. That **** is grimy, not like a scum tell, but as a betrayal of the social contract I think you should abide by in mafia.

 

[ranmaru]

I will certainly. I posted the quote you asked for, I am interested on your thoughts on that. More in a bit as I am going to eat.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

Lore i forgot:

Can you post your reads on FF and me? sorry if you already did in the last couple pages

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

I will certainly. I posted the quote you asked for, I am interested on your thoughts on that. More in a bit as I am going to eat.

I don't have thoughts on that or else I'm missing context. I don't think the way that Kary has treated Lore is indicative of SvS behavior. I don't think the way Kary or Lore have treated me is SvS behavior. I think to reach that conclusion you have to throw Occam's Razor in the bin.

 

[ranmaru]

I rarely use Occamz Razor. Kary asked you about maven, but not rockin. You said you would shoot them both. It would make more sense to ask about them both but Kary was only specifically wondering about Maven and that does not make sense.

 

[Pythag]

I rarely use Occamz Razor.

QFT lol

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

I rarely use Occamz Razor. Kary asked you about maven, but not rockin. You said you would shoot them both. It would make more sense to ask about them both but Kary was only specifically wondering about Maven and that does not make sense.

It would make sense to you to ask about both.

It makes sense to me to narrow my focus to whatever is relevant to me at that time.

It makes sense to marshy to keep his opinions to himself.

It makes sense to Tom to lynch Rockin.

To say what they didn't ask about in one post is asinine. You would need to establish a pattern of ignoring a slot for me to think it's a condemnation and I certainly don't get how them not asking about Rockin is a piece to connect all three of theses slots in a conspiracy.

I rarely use Occamz Razor.

This is foolish. To acknowledge that Occam's Razor can be wrong is one thing. To dismiss the usefulness is another entirely.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

QFT lol

Ranmaru likes this post and I don't think it was a compliment.

 

[ranmaru]

Rockin had no posts, Maven had one. Why specifically be concerned with you shooting Maven but he is not concerned with Rockin who was in the same boat? If you can show me reasoning why he was specifically asking about maven, I am open to listening.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

If what you're looking for is a mathematical way to eliminate me as a possible scum, you're not going to find it. There will always be some grand master plan I could be conducted from the shadows. If that's going to haunt you then I can't do anything about that. There's a certain degree of that in my read on Tom right now and I have to keep a healthy skepticism of marshy in any game I play with him.

You will note, however, that I get over it and don't go jamming Tom onto every scum team because he "can" be on it. I feel like everything you propose has to be bent over backwards so I can fit on your scum team. See previous comment about square peg and round hole.

 

[Pythag]

It wasn't,, but at the same time, I wasn't meaning it as a hard slam either. It just seems to be how he plays the game.

 

[ranmaru]

This is foolish. To acknowledge that Occam's Razor can be wrong is one thing. To dismiss the usefulness is another entirely.

Usually I was right when I did not use it. Do I have to dig through games to show why I don't like to use it?

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Rockin had no posts, Maven had one. Why specifically be concerned with you shooting Maven but he is not concerned with Rockin who was in the same boat? If you can show me reasoning why he was specifically asking about maven, I am open to listening.

I have two different reasons off the top of my head, but I think the fact that I'm "defending Kary" will probably just come up as another reason for you to want to lynch me.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

I am trying very hard to do better than Marshy with approaching this. I am trying to work with you to progress this read, but nothing gets through and we add pages to this game.

You and I are going to talk after this game is over.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Just loaded into a league game.

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

Usually I was right when I did not use it. Do I have to dig through games to show why I don't like to use it?

i am wholly willing to take time after this game ends to link up with you and methodically go through every single instance you can think of that makes you think you have justification for not using occam's razor because, buddy, you saying you barely use occam's razor REALLY puts a lot of things into perspective.

 

[ranmaru]

I do feel Lore and Kary definetly have a connection to each other. That much is certain. I am considering that you may be a red herring but of course I look at individual actions too.

 

[ranmaru]

i am wholly willing to take time after this game ends to link up with you and methodically go through every single instance you can think of that makes you think you have justification for not using occam's razor because, buddy, you saying you barely use occam's razor REALLY puts a lot of things into perspective.

I am down.

 

[ranmaru]

Tom Where you at dude.

 

[ranmaru]

I have two different reasons off the top of my head, but I think the fact that I'm "defending Kary" will probably just come up as another reason for you to want to lynch me.

Seeing as Kary called me daft townie or deflecting because of my Maven push, I can consider it as SvT. If I am wrong on you, we need to seriously talk about Kary. Yes, he is placed well on the wagon. Yet his play is not matching up. It isn't obvious, but there are some small details. Like him not following up on his case on you. I certainly think that blow up was staged.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Seeing as Kary called me daft townie or deflecting because of my Maven push, I can consider it as SvT. If I am wrong on you, we need to seriously talk about Kary. Yes, he is placed well on the wagon. Yet his play is not matching up. It isn't obvious, but there are some small details. Like him not following up on his case on you. I certainly think that blow up was staged.

Sure. Ok, there are some small details.

There are some large, run you over with a bus while you're crossing the street details pointing in other directions.

 

[Pythag]

ranmaru
But your case is :

Kary didn't mention Rockin, nor ask Ryker about Rockin
There was weirdness around Lore's fight.

I think the fight was weird, and maybe I'm a sucker for not having the attitude of "doing whatever it takes to win" but I'm with Ryker, I hope and believe the fight wasn't fake.


I want to hear Kary's side, at least what he was thinking.

For the record I'm not opposed to Kary being scum, but I'd be very hard pressed to think Kary and Lore are both scum

 

[#HBC | Kary]

I am going to respond to a few things while I have time and patience.

I rarely use Occamz Razor. Kary asked you about maven, but not rockin. You said you would shoot them both. It would make more sense to ask about them both but Kary was only specifically wondering about Maven and that does not make sense.

I was asking Ryker about his weird and bad stances, because I was trying to get a better read on Ryker.
I mentioned Maven because that was the most obviously weird and bad, and because he had already said that the Rockin shot was "because life's just a ***** sometimes" which made me think the Rockin shot was mainly for the meme.
I was asking because I wanted a better read on Ryker. It was irrelevant to me who I asked about.

I'm frankly disappointed that you've been repeating this one irrelevant point for so long. But that's just the way it goes.

 

[ranmaru]

I don't see how the fight wouldn't be staged, that is not against rules. Maybe Ryker is against it in principle but others may not be. Especially since Tom said Lore used AtE to win a game. (Need to check that) Also yes, that is my case so far.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

You also had your vote on Poyzin and were actively pushing to get people on his wagon. Why do you think my previous case (overreactions, defensiveness, etc) is now without merit?

I keep repeating things about what I've done because I'm being questioned on them with, imo, poor questioning and reasonings. It's getting tiring to keep repeating myself.

It is humorous to me that you think that my vote on Poyzin was in any way an endorsement of the things you had to say about him.

I was voting Poyzin because he was a null read of mine that had also jumped onto the Doop waggon and so I wanted to put pressure on him in order to try and improve my read on him. The fact that you also happened to be voting for him is just a coincidence. I continue to think that your case against him was utter garbage.

 

[ranmaru]

I don't understand how you re-read Maven's only post and changed your read completely.





Ran what do you think of Nabe? Because frankly you are tunneling on Maven right now.

I don't know if that's because you're town and you're just being daft, or because you were in the spotlight earlier and you need to push on someone else.

I still find this post from Kary weird, related to Maven.

 

[ranmaru]

Keep that in mind if Lore flips scum. I have nothing else really. I do think Kary is playing well, yet reserved. Anything else is most likely gut and I can't really explain it to well. Kary hasn't posted a reads list though so it is hard to really know where he is at.

 

[ranmaru]

Kary, if you could do that, that would be swell.

 

[ranmaru]

I know Ryker would agree with me on that as well, as we do need to have stances from you.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

You know where I said I will respond to things as long as I have time and patience? One of those is getting worn out real quick, Ran

 

[Spak]

I'll be catching up now.

#HBC | Gorf I'm around if you wanna talk

 

[ranmaru]

You don't have to do it right this moment. But I would like stances when you have the time.

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

I'll be catching up now.

#HBC | Gorf I'm around if you wanna talk

sup bro. feel free to catch up for now and add whatever you need, im gonna go back and remember your readslist and some of the stuff i wanted to get from you.

for now, id appreciate an updated read on jtb given the post i made earlier toDay:

so from my take the ff post is serviceable enough overall and im fine abstaining from actually pressing in on my scumread until later in the Day when he can be around (if we dont hammer early that is). the john is coo, id say just avoid prods till then @#HBC | FrozeηFlame.

to give you the gist since im lazy and its honestly kinda lame, poyzin comes in telling ryker to claim na's and then next post claims tracker. ryker claims vt and nobody cc's. a while passes and MAD fud and wifom ensues, all for poyzin to come in and say it was a gambit for x y and z. its wholly uneventful and there are probably reads to parse from it, but from being there while it was happening i personally just got a p hard townread on ryker and a reaffirmed townread on poyzin.



this is super interesting. ive been kinda lumping you and jtb in on the same boat of being fine waiting till later in the Day to make moves on yall but its worth looking at jtb eoD1 into toDay more closely.

#HBC | Ryker whats your take on this (as well as what follows), particularly the bolded part of ff's quote

jtb starts the last day yesterDay by saying hes gonna take like 3-4 hours or something to catch up (which honestly tells me jtb should be caught up by now) and then he says this to jex questioning jtbs read on him:



really matches the tonal issues that marshy brought up about jtb and the framing of peoples motivations. my gut tells me on a scum!jtb flip, spak is town that jtb decided to latch onto in order to spur content



in all fairness he rescinds some of the edge, but for this to be all hes got is p overwhelming. cant really blame him for the hammer dropping during this time, and i feel like diving into the wifom of it all isnt valuable. but at this point, jtb should be caught up and able to have substantial contributions when he comes back in, from his words.

D2, hes had a total of 9 posts:


pretty underwhelming for a guy who shouldve been caught up over the Night phase (his words not mine).

-prod received
-calling macs vote bad for being on an inactive (which is lame cuz hes been on his *** since D1 and the Day basically just started)
-some whatever thing wrt the poyzin gambit
-justifying an old ran read?
-asking lore what his scumreads are
-joke answer to a question he prob doesnt feel like answering in the moment
-not being caught up johns, wants to be interacted with instead to garner content
-asking lore about if his reads changed from his early thought of a poyzin-doop-pythag-rockin team after lore reads poyzin as town from the gambit thing
-responding to ran, doesnt wanna read into jex or nabe yet out of respect for spak replacing in and nabe being a rock and will read rockin/poyzin later. offers ff read:

dont hate his first para on ff, but its kinda mediocre analysis wrt the jex vote. dude put his vote there and said he doesnt like the jexs eagerness to follow. the details are implicit but arent hard to understand. and putting it on the backburner in favor of something more favorable isnt really scummy in and of itself, its smart play. the stuff wrt his wagon is fair, but at the same time thats essentially a rewording of what ryker and i have said so i dont hold much credence to that.

453 comment is a stretch, and 490 is aight but, again, its kind of a rewording of what ryker and i were saying yesterDay. i wont comment yet on the doop connection cuz thats a deep dive im not down to take yet though.

pretty ****ing lackluster overall, and i seriously dont understand how people are putting this guy in their townreads. idk if id call it OMGUS, but definitely lacking seeing how this is the depth of his play and the way he "tend to overanalyze stuff" its super weak

and the analysis i made of him yesterDay:

JTB

Spoiler

to begin my dissection, i am interested in focusing in on jtb. before this, i felt like he had some formidable early play that has slowly petered down to a point where his contributions have been... harmless. i almost became aloof to him, but paid enough attention to his play to not feel perturbed.

page 5

Spoiler

within the context of the thread at this point, i think that this is an interesting question to pose. in fact, it may be the very question that prompted the subsequent wagon around maven. the motivation behind it is not as shiny as i initially felt, though: the beings are telling me that it's nothing more than observational, and i feel compelled to agree with them. scum has just as much access to observation, but the most this tells me is that if jtb is scum, marshy is probably town (however, i would say marshy's shining a spotlight on jtb in the manner he did is more indicative of that).



i dont appreciate the posturing of jexs' post that jtb does here. in reality, jexs' inquisition was an innocuous one, and whether we like to admit it or not, some townies like to meta other townies. there doesnt seem to be much of a want to understand.

aside from that, i dont hate jtbs contributions on this page, but i dont like them. marshy stated recently that



and in this instance, the above jex quote is that. unless proven wrong later in the thread, it is like the conclusion is set before the natural phase of trying to decide. now, bullheadedness is a possibility, but oftentimes we can observe that behavior develop over time. in this case, it doesnt.

page 6

Spoiler

but this chain of events leads me to think that his sights were primarily set on the marshy-doops development, and that he was just looking to throw out quick quips because, well, thats just what some people do early game. despite its brevity, i like this sequence.

page 8

Spoiler

i dont necessarily agree with the conclusion in bold here, but this feels like genuine scumhunting. early quips aside, he lays out his gripes with what he gathered from jex and ran in response to people wondering. this reads less as framing something bad outright, and more as an interpretation of events.

page 12

Spoiler

its interesting to me that ff is pinning jtb on this list of who can be plays in spite of the fact that ff has yet to mention jtb at all. there was some murmurings of jtb suspicions at best, but not much. and this sort of shoehorned read doesnt really fit in with how ff established his personality. nabe, maven, and rockin are simple to chalk up as policy, and jex, gorf and kary had some sort of substantiation for their inclusion. but not jtb. i feel like on a scum!jtb flip this might be worth looking into if this pattern is consistent from ff. unless this stance sees development later on. but that's neither here nor there without a flip.

page 13

Spoiler

this is actually a pretty glaring representation of marshys aforementioned characterization of jtb's play. hes not looking to weigh both sides, to develop a read, hes pretty much determined a solution and frames it negatively. but even then, the read is weak (he even pretty much admits it) and not very emphasized. if they are scummates, i can definitely see this as a soft distancing from ff.



here is a more firm example of negative characterization, but given the circumstances, its pretty understandable to me.





in fact, these quotes tell me that jtb seems perturbed at a wagon forming on maven in this case. considering maven's output, i can see town!jtb using the formulation of maven suspicion to generate reads here if his future play remains in line with that. its not a towntell, but its closer to that than a scumtell from me.









this line of questioning reads as more vapid to me. to me, its never a good look when a player has a motive established, and uses filler questions to lure out content. marshy actually referred to this in his original post, and when i saw it my thought was "this is ****in bull**** youll townread ran for doing this ******** *** **** but scumread someone else?" but taking a step back from my ego, i can see the silver lining. this essentially reads as packing pe.

page 19

Spoiler

this is the first hint of progression toward what will become a marshy vote. at this point, his only vocalized concern have been regarding marshy's opening post debacle. i dont really think its bad yet, though: he sees a read he directly disagrees with, and wants to ask a player he presumably still has as null but had prior history with to further substantiate it.



here is jtb's marshy vote. i dont like it. to say hes playing like an ic is a bold claim, and unlike other reads hes given since, its unsubstantiated. i also just fail to see the motivation of getting onto rykers good side, and if hes townreading ryker, well... that means rykers on HIS good side, so hes bound to treat him fairly well. the worst part to me, though, is that hes not willing to extend the same sort of grace onto marshys lack of expressed reads that he seems to for other players. many players have remained quiet about a lot of their reads. i think its a good strategy, and clearly, jtb seems to respect it since hes made no sort of effort to extract reads from anyone (including marshy). why hasnt jtb involved himself with marshy if he felt like marshy wasnt giving reads? the excuse of "not wanting to effect his perception" doesnt really apply here because jtb didnt show his cards in any real way before this. this alone honestly brings my jtb to a null-at-best sort of read, because i have a hard time seeing town try to justify a read in this way but give no effort toward substantiating it well, in spite of previously having done so.

ive been keeping up with developments of peoples interactions with jtb thus far, and will get to a summary of what i think matters later. but one of my strongest question marks on a first glance of the wagon, jex, seems to be fairly consistent in saying that he feels like jtb is null and has been trying to understand why people are townreading him while doing so:

page 20 is where marshy officially posts his case on jtb, and jex and mac immediately hop on. i dont have an issue with how these guys got on. i explained jex earlier but mac had just voiced agreement with kevin putting him on a "can die list" and called ran putting jtb at the top of his town list preposterous. considering how hes played thus far, this is consistent with how he came onto the wagon. jex and mac lent support to the wagon, and they read as "pressure that can go either way, but leaning toward a solid

page 21

Spoiler

even when he votes for jtb, his approach to reading him is so. glaringly. inconsistent with how hes approached the rest of his reads. everything else he's done has been laid out and made clear. jtb just gets shade. coming from ff, it's incredibly weak.

ut seems to be the last person to hop on the jtb wagon, and itd be hard to pry my townread of him out of my hands so he gets a pass from me. the rest of the page is pretty much jtb responding to pressure and, like, its fine. nothing bad, nothing good.

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

updated read, overall impression/general responses. i just wanna see your hot takes on it considering iirc you have him at a flat null

 

[#HBC | Kary]

Pythag First of all, your post is ugly as hell.

I intentionally worded my initial response to Lore in a way that might provoke him. I admit as much in my follow up post:

Of course I could just say that explicitly, but that doesn't answer my questions. Why you are asking me in the first place? You seem to have caught up on the thread in a surprisingly quick amount of time, and I feel as though your asking me this sort of question implies you have me at a town read. There is also the obvious question of why you are pursuing something if you yourself think it could be nothing.

This is a playerslot that has been inactive for the majority of the game, and one of the first things that they do is look to me for approval on a case against Mac, probably the most obvious town slot in the game. My first thought was "why does Werekill want me to dunk on his obvious incompetence"


So why did I provoke Lore? Because

#HBC | Kary You're usually solid at calling out when someone is going down a pretty useless rabbit hole. Mind giving your thoughts on the above? It's just not adding up for me, and I'd appreciate a second perspective.[/QUOTE]

Lore seems like that would involve reading your posts.

Lore asks for a different perspective, maybe like a gut check from Kary, because Kary's good at those things.

Perhaps this question was going to be a way of him confirming a read on you.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

well thanks based SWF cant wait for the EBWOP version