Social DGames Social | V/LA |

[JeXs]

I agree with Maven that the community isn't too bad to new players. I've only been here a few months and when I first joined the people were pretty darn nice to me(even Gorf). The recent fiasco about alts causing people to accuse new players of being alts is nonsense though and makes it harder for others to join dgames.

 

[Vinylic.]

yeah badwolf is about the best example of bullying this room has seen, which got depressingly personal. the only thing that comes to mind that came close is vinyl and I'm not even sure he was picked on much outside of his performance in some games :/

Whatever happened in dgames was not bullying. I was being an ***hat and have not realised that until I've been scolded multitudes of times. I'm just another block being cut to perfect shape out of experience here, which is why I still come here and talk along, even though I have work to do. I appreciate the help jdietz/ran gave me.

The actual bullying came outside of dgames and led to one moderator being demoted, and several warned. I've been called an aspie before, and pretty much lost count on what else they've called me. That stuff was years ago, I seem to have lost respect of one person, and not knowing who was right or wrong, I couldn't care less because the argument was pointless. Right now, I'm just having fun with others and tend to keep it that way.

 

[adumbrodeus]

for real tho imagine how lovely this place would be if acrostic and adumb put each other on ignore for a week

Have I talked much with acro? I thought it was mostly other people.

You make good points @ adumbrodeus . And I don't mean to attack you as a community member or anything, far from it, I'm trying to figure out how to be inclusive to people who are concerned primarily with games and how to play them who are specifically not interested in this exact kind of discussion which some people including myself find offputting and secondary to games.

But no, in this case I was wrong. I see instead what I've been expecting out of the social thread simply wasn't and hasn't ever been what it's been for. Navigating what Acrostic has lovingly defined as verbal fellatio is mostly why I don't post here, I'm just not interested in that depth of discussion, and I get my regular chatter in other places. I literally just don't care to wade through it to get to mafia related issues and topics.



I think I found a new need for the forum in that case.



@#HBC | marshy
@ #HBC | Red Ryu
@Raziek


Would it be possible, and/or can I get permission to create a sticky thread that would be solely for discussing mafia games, the theory of mafia games, how finished games panned out future and present, and how we make and play mafia games role etc. to foster the concept of mafia games in general?

Yes I'm dead serious. I think it's the kind of something we didn't know we were missing until we had it.

Thanks for that, I really appreciate.

As for making the thread, lord knows I enjoy theorycrafting discussion, I do think in order to make it work though, memorandum on issues discussed in ongoing games? Proposed weekly discussion topics to take things off currently events. Feel like it needs to be more tightly managed to take it off just being about bleeding edge issues in the community.



@Acro Interpret my motives however you want, but trying to convince players to come back is only a bandaid solution. To fix things the culture needs to change to a healthier place so we can get new blood. People leaving is unfortunately natural.

Sure, it's theory, but there's no instant concrete solution to this.

 

[#HBC | Acrostic]

@ adumbrodeus

There's no such things as concrete solutions. Solutions themselves are self-defeating when they successful. Once a problem is addressed, the solution no longer holds value. The overarching issue with life is that there are too many problems, too few solutions, and too much reliance on coping mechanisms.

I have a natural inclination to shoot people down because I am a toxic person. Due to circumstances, I need to be this way in order to continue making a living. I don't like myself and I'm aware of the effect I have on people around me. Therefore I'm going to leave until I'm able to believe in other people and the idea that people can be genuine/decent human beings.

 

[#HBC | BadWolf]

I personally think that the easiest solution would be me just not coming back.

Seriously tho, I've not heard **** worse than what I've been here for. It's not really my fault but I'm at the epicenter of it.

 

[Vult Redux]

My turn I guess.

[collapse=story time with papa laundry]@#HBC | Ryker pointed this out to me when he prompted me into the discussion with him but this place reminds me of a ****hole I ran into the ground awhile ago. It ain't a well kept secret that a bunch of us originated from General Silliness on AllisBrawl and migrated here after that place went to the ****ter. What is something that's not frequently discussed is we were at one point very similar to this place, except the quality of games was significantly worse than it was here (way worse players and hosts imo). So a bit of backstory:

GS used to be very heavily into mafia, thanks to a certain @ Vult Redux (then named Sprite or Dr. Sprite) introducing us to the game during a summer. It blew up out of control after he ran a second one and then I ran a third one because enough of a demand existed for it. At one point GS had a couple of 30-man games run, that's how many players we could pull into a mafia game. For awhile, we were managing around 20 players per game. It got so big that it drove our community. It wasn't the only thing we did, as we were still by and large an off-topic community, but it was a very heavy draw and we certainly had a few members there that came solely to play mafia.

What happened?

Well, me, for one. I was very poorly equipped to be a mod at the time and I had no idea of this, so I gladly took the position when Dacidbro decided to vouch for me to get it. My ineptitude and general insecurity and problems spilled out because I was moderating an off-topic community that loved to take potshots and push the line. That wrecked my weak mentality further and eventually I had to quit because I just couldn't handle it anymore. The problems that occurred were before I quit. I was sentimental when I shouldn't have been, constantly needed to be reassured that I was doing a good job, and was constantly making tighter and tighter rules that struck the place down, half the time probably because I just didn't like what I was doing. I didn't really infract people too often outside of usual **** (i.e. cancer dodging, spamming a ****ton, inappropriate ****, the like) but the idea of me making things against the rules was something that group didn't care for.

Mafia fell off a cliff too--we constantly ran games for awhile and then everyone on it just left. We pushed games into a specific subforum just for them and the old adage "outta sight, outta mind" proved true. People didn't check as frequently, other things preoccupied people from playing (the great plague known as "League of Legends" came out right around the time where we declined), people vanished, people stopped caring, and people stopped coming. Mafia became less fun and people stopped playing. We could no longer fill games anymore.

It also severely did not help that we had a group of consistent trolls that made everyone for the most part miserable. This didn't stop others from befriending them because, as far as I'm aware of, a bunch of them still hang out and associate. The fact that they had friends made community pull to keep them around stronger and it made them harder to remove them as a result. Their behavior just drove people away while playing the system just enough to avoid getting permanently banned. I contemplated and requested bans for them a few times but I could never secure them because they weren't overt enough to get infracted yet still questionable enough to warrant the inquiry. The whole time they were obnoxious *******s that made some people very, very miserable.

Does that sound familiar to you? Because it sounds familiar to me.

No, our moderators aren't insecure power-hungry dip****s but they are causing problems because they're too lax. GS was intensely more problematic to moderate because the mods had specific instructions to go light on certain infractions, and thus that created a lot of gray area. DGames doesn't have that same affinity. The only thing we should get off on is double posting. Yet, we allow Gorf to absolutely **** on people like Badwolf and make him feel completely unwelcome here, players are rampant *******s in game, and we're hemorrhaging players as a result. While the whole blame doesn't fall squarely on their shoulders, better moderation, if only to say "hey knock that off" whether that be in-game or out and hand out punishment when the problem persists (either due to flagrant dismissal of the mod's warning or through habitual pattern over a period of time), would help a lot. It may curb some of the assholish behavior that had gotten out of hand before. If Marshy, Ruy, and Raz aren't enough, get another mod. We've had three before.

The other two points are obvious. We've lost players so mafia games are getting staler and this makes games less interesting so people want to play even less and we lose even more. We're down to the few diehards and the other occasional players we've forged to handle this ****hole that we can coerce into playing every now and again. I don't need to talk about *******s playing the system, we all know who they are.[/collapse]

That's what I see. That's what I think. Correct me if I'm wrong or if I missed important details, but we put this **** in the blender too long and I want things to finally be made right. I'm trying to do my part by being way less condescending in games. I'll be adding in a line or two into my signature to advertise the site wherever I post outside DGames. But I'm just one man. We need all of us to do something or else we're facing a very dire and very slow end.

this a very cool story. write a novel.

how was gs even a thing??

also pls review my game I'm CRAVING to host

lu

 

[Ashemu]

making a separate thread for mafia meta-discussion is a good idea imo

 

[#HBC | Joker]

This is a stupid statement to make.

We've made people leave our community because of how crappy it is. Of course I want J to start playing again. This doesn't mean that I don't want new players in the community as well. It's not a choice. It's the outcome that we desire. We don't want one or the other. We want both, but with how our community is at the moment, we won't be getting either without a lot of improvement.

"We should be more careful with how we treat each other in this community guise"

followed immediately by calling me stupid.

and no, I don't think it's stupid. I'm quite certain that it's true. You can say "but we want to have it all!" till your blue in the face, go ahead. You can't have it all. The veterans aren't all gonna come back. I was posing a hypothetical. I even used the phrase "given the choice".

This raises a good point, this isn't all on Gorf. Almost everyone here, I suspect, is guilty of being hostile. I find it especially funny that when I was a newbie here, the two people who made me feel the least welcome, were Kary and Joey. Two people who, after being here as long as I have, I would never suspect of being hostile **** players. But they were, to me. I'm quite certain if I went back and quoted the things you guys said to me when I was new here, you'd be quite ashamed of yourselves. In fact, I've had this conversation with Kary before, and he was. After my first handful of games here, I was quite hesitant to sign up for anything outside the newbie queue. I really don't have thick skin. I am, however, quite stubborn. The only reason I'm still here is because I said "**** those assholes, I'm still playing." Something I can't imagine a lot of people would be willing to do.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

read that as a full sentence without taking a breath.

I did, because you didn't use any goddamn punctuation.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I read it out loud

 

[Vult Redux]

i only came because laundry tagged me but now I've skimmed and I figured my perspective might be relevant

I LOVE mafia and have been playing online since I was like 12 (10 years now!!) but I haven't played in months ish. Which would be weird esp since this community is available and I think a lot of people in this community are smart and I used to be friends with some folks here and I like the way the meta is here from a game perspective.

but when I'm in the MOOD to play and I am PSYCHED to sign up for a game I log RIGHT ON to this site look at 1/2 threads then log back off orrr go to the character boards to lurk

it's that a) you guys are cliquey b) you guys are mean*. basically what @ Dooms said. like how is typing angrily considered a legitimate persuasion strategy here??? why are there 5 hydras in every game??? what did the tcg do other than put some people on a pedestal and exclude others??? how did I get lynched in fire/lightning mafia when I was conf town??? what does #hbc even mean??? and other mysteries

am happy to see there's a push to change so I'll def check in more often.

*not everyone ofc i like most of you iirc

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Am I the only one who did something like a Party on Halloween? I'll read through this when Brewyu is gone in the morning.

 

[#HBC | BadWolf]

Am I the only one who did something like a Party on Halloween? I'll read through this when Brewyu is gone in the morning.

you forget that we're on a forum for gamers.....

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

@ Vult Redux You got lynched in Fire/Lighting because people didn't read, literally that. It sucks but that's mafia sometimes.

you forget that we're on a forum for gamers.....

Even then, why resist dressing up?

I dressed up as Sir Aaron from the Lucario movie for fun, drank a bit, listened to good music, watched a ton of Halloween movies/anime. Played MTG when people wanted to just sit down.

I was psyched for today and going out lol.

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

I'm not kidding. If he continues as he has been, good riddance. He's long since stopped being funny and I would love to see him banned if he doesn't shape up. I've talked to the guy often and I don't have a problem with him so long as he isn't posting on SWF.

***** im the funniest motha ****a i know

 

[#HBC | Joker]

***** im the funniest motha ****a i know

You should meet more people.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

This is not a time to be avoid being taken seriously.

I was making light of a situation, don't be overly dramatic.

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

ryker, please respond in PM

i dont have much more to say here because i guess i just have thicker skin than a lot of people. sorry if im a **** because of it
the only times gorf actually bugs me is when he has a different opinion than i do about social issues and goes out of his way to be dehumanizing/bigoted then handwaves it as "trolling", which gets on my nerves on some level but im too detached from this community to really argue with him

i guess its more of a frustrated sigh/eyeroll than genuine anger though

to be severely honest i mean most of the **** i say, i just have the balls to say it. i think liking mlp is legitimately concerning, i think that "sexualizing women" is completely and utterly fine in the grand scheme of things, i think being overly sensitive to a person is unfair to them overall, i get massively annoyed when people make a big deal about showing things like homosexuality and how it relates to our community, i think ******** are possibly one of the worst things ever, etc. but most of the time that i handwave something as trolling its because i KNOW that arguing it isnt worth the massive wave of social justice warriors that will inevitably come in and discredit my opinion because it isnt what society today wants to think.

and honestly, dgames probably ISNT the place to voice things like that. but i wont stop doing it if i feel it worth bringing up. i have just as much of a right to support the aryan race as someone else does to say that racism is horrible. do i push it sometimes? yea. do i do it for my own personal gain? yea, and cutting it out would make the room more inviting. but saying people shouldnt grow thicker skin and people should just be nicer is objectively some of the worst advice if you want to like do anything worthwhile in the real world, and if anybody would like to have an intelligent conversation about why i feel that way i'm more than welcome to having it.

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

Don't be a moron.

OH COME ON THAT WAS FUNNY

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Gorf, you just might be the most reprehensible human being I've ever met. If you really believe all the things you just said, then truly, I feel sorry for you. It must be difficult to live with so much intolerance in your heart. But you're right about one thing, you have a right to think those things. Just like the KKK is allowed to believe what they believe, you are allowed to be as close minded and ignorant as you want to be.

Just do us a favor, and keep that **** to yourself as much as humanly possible.

 

[Circus]

You know what my favorite thing about proponents of the "thicker skin" solution is?

They're always the ones holding the knives.

 

[Ashemu]

i figured you legit think most of what you say i just think handwaving it as trolling is avoiding accountability, like you're not willing to be challenged on it. not that i really care enough to do so, but it comes off that way to me

i guess a better way of putting it is that imo it's not having the balls to say something if you need to take it back later.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Gorf isn't the one who handwaves it as trolling tho, everyone else does. Because honestly? It's really difficult to believe someone actually thinks those things in the year 2014, so they assume he must be trolling. That's what I always thought, anyway.

 

[Ashemu]

nah its pretty common lol

Gorf do u post on stormfront

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

Whatever happened in dgames was not bullying. I was being an ***hat and have not realised that until I've been scolded multitudes of times. I'm just another block being cut to perfect shape out of experience here, which is why I still come here and talk along, even though I have work to do. I appreciate the help jdietz/ran gave me.

The actual bullying came outside of dgames and led to one moderator being demoted, and several warned. I've been called an aspie before, and pretty much lost count on what else they've called me. That stuff was years ago, I seem to have lost respect of one person, and not knowing who was right or wrong, I couldn't care less because the argument was pointless. Right now, I'm just having fun with others and tend to keep it that way.

AHH **** WHO WAS DEMODDED FOR THIS I GOTTA FIND OUT!

Gorf, you just might be the most reprehensible human being I've ever met. If you really believe all the things you just said, then truly, I feel sorry for you. It must be difficult to live with so much intolerance in your heart. But you're right about one thing, you have a right to think those things. Just like the KKK is allowed to believe what they believe, you are allowed to be as close minded and ignorant as you want to be.

Just do us a favor, and keep that **** to yourself as much as humanly possible.

i dont mean the aryan thing obv, that was a hypothetical to drive the point. but of the rest the only closed minded and intolerable things are the ****** and mlp things. the rest are just typically unpopular stances on social opinions.

You know what my favorite thing about proponents of the "thicker skin" solution is?

They're always the ones holding the knives.

**** yea we are we murder the **** out of everyone and tell them to deal with it

i figured you legit think most of what you say i just think handwaving it as trolling is avoiding accountability, like you're not willing to be challenged on it. not that i really care enough to do so, but it comes off that way to me

i guess a better way of putting it is that imo it's not having the balls to say something if you need to take it back later.

i handwave it as trolling because i kinda have to sometimes. im more than willing to maturely debate things though and legit be challenged about things. something i know about me is that i know i can be wrong, and i love hearing different sides. but on a social forum where saying something that isnt socially acceptable is killer, handwaving it as trolling is kind of my way of just stepping off and tryna steer the argument away from a ban.

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

nah its pretty common lol

Gorf do u post on stormfront

nah lemme check it out

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

i literally lol'd at the description on google

 

[Ashemu]

basically what @ Dooms said. like how is typing angrily considered a legitimate persuasion strategy here???

on this note i should probably say given the archived games ive read, im baffled how people are having this discussion but also idolize swiss.

 

[Ashemu]

this would be a good time to discuss it in a brand new Mafia Theory Social Thread

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

i idolize swiss cuz he's a homie from my mafia roots personally

hes... pretty good at town, and arguably fantastic as scum. the walrus has kinda hurt my memory but he just reeeeally knows how to work a team and a town imho.

 

[Ashemu]

btw if vult joins a game ill join it just because his post in this thread was hilarious

 

[Sons of Hardbody]

@ Vult Redux

yur mislynch n town losing that game were my fault n im sorry specifically to yu n gova

EDIT i lynched yu cuz i ignored clearing evidence in favor of painting a scumteam that made sense to me off dayplay. twas ********. typing angrily works as a tactic cuz it shocks ppl n makes em feel like theyre blind when a loud player does it. the tcg accomplished exciting the playerbase for 3 weeks b4 dying out in energy. hydras out the ass fly cuz ppl tend to enjoy them to the point mods wont ban them. #hbc has different meanings at this point but its generally used in game as a call to arms to **** up people. just so yur questions dont go unanswered

 

[Dooms]

"We should be more careful with how we treat each other in this community guise"

followed immediately by calling me stupid.

and no, I don't think it's stupid. I'm quite certain that it's true. You can say "but we want to have it all!" till your blue in the face, go ahead. You can't have it all. The veterans aren't all gonna come back. I was posing a hypothetical. I even used the phrase "given the choice".

This raises a good point, this isn't all on Gorf. Almost everyone here, I suspect, is guilty of being hostile. I find it especially funny that when I was a newbie here, the two people who made me feel the least welcome, were Kary and Joey. Two people who, after being here as long as I have, I would never suspect of being hostile **** players. But they were, to me. I'm quite certain if I went back and quoted the things you guys said to me when I was new here, you'd be quite ashamed of yourselves. In fact, I've had this conversation with Kary before, and he was. After my first handful of games here, I was quite hesitant to sign up for anything outside the newbie queue. I really don't have thick skin. I am, however, quite stubborn. The only reason I'm still here is because I said "**** those *******s, I'm still playing." Something I can't imagine a lot of people would be willing to do.

I meant the statement. Not you. Sorry if it came across in that way.

I still stand by that though. Regardless of if it's a hypothetical, it's still a pretty dumb statement. Of course we would want some vets back, and of course not all of them are. I'm missing the connection between asking people that left the community because it was crap to come back and try again with a better community vs trying to make this community a good place for newer players. One doesn't make me have less of a desire than the other. I don't get how this is supposed to be a critism and how this is supposed to make me rethink my thoughts on what quite a few of us want to change here.

I've been through every phase of the book. From the drama-starting 13 year old high school girl to I'd say 2-3 times more fragile and more of a childish asshole than I am now. I know I've made mistakes, and I've tried to apologize to people as I remember them. This is something I will keep on trying to fix about myself. This doesn't change the fact that we need to start fixing these things we have done to our community. Ryker and Laundry both know they were part of the problem, I know I was part of the problem. The reason why we've been talking about Gord so much is because he is currently one of the biggest parts of that problem, not because we think he is the only problem.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Especially you Acrostic. If you feel like natural decline is a foregone conclusion in online forums, why are you here. The Dgames as a whole you were an active part in is dead, so either you're going to do something to reform it and bring some life back so that you'd like to play or... sit here and waste space for the majority of people who have never gotten a chance to know you? No response from you on this topic was ever was warranted, that would imply you had a direct stake on the state of actual Mafia games or their attractiveness to newcomers.

sorry but this paragraph is also ridiculous. pls dont call someone a waste of space etc

also it sucks that when u like posts but u only agree with part of it and its like hnnng
also +2 pages wait lemme read

 

[Orboknown]

My turn?

Spoiler

So when i first got into dgames, i was following along with rykers hentai 2 maf. I laughed my ass off and eventually got down to actually mentally working on the game. Then i played in newbie 16 and os' fft maf. Besides the fact that i loved the mental challenge and stimulus of mafia, the thing that kept me here was the strong sense of community and how every game worked out differently due to the quirks and characteristics of the playstyles. Watching marshy try to yell out a lynch over os or ee playing methodical and slow while gheb and j just plowed on with solid gamesmanship really made for good exciting games. There was room for different playstyles and mindsets to the game because we had a blend going that worked well. We had gorf, but he wasn't anywhere near as bad as he has been lately. Marshy still hbc'd his game, but that was his thing and it worked for him and kev and mac but that was pri mich it. Nowadays all we do is go"hey this guy should get lynched", and theres some explanations but we've really shifted away from that.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

I was reading about SSB 4 and clicked here thinking it was related somehow to smash. Then I looked around a little and signed up to the forum because mafia looked fun. Now I'm just pretending I'm a legit dgamer and hoping no one catches on that I've been here a month

still eor

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

ok being european has paid off once more and i can read the thread without there suddenly being 1000 more posts
lets all take a second to appreciate the roots
(cuz most of yu americans have dem eu roots)
(and vanderzant too hmu mr sand)

anyway
while i do not agree with gorfs stances i entirely understand where hes coming from (and i tried to explain it to ryker a while back actually) but it seems like if anything his intentions are misunderstood aka "look at that troll ha ha" idk
a feedback/gameplay thread sounds great ill revive my old one right @#HBC | BarDeeZy ??
on a more serious note idk what to say. we are cliquey but heyyyyyyyyyyyy thats what happens to communities with very defined personalities. i still like the idea of an introduction thread with like 100 facebook questionnaires and general information yukno?
ok thats all
so what exactly are the problems? weve discussed for a bit now but honestly i dont see a lot of issues being put forward

 

[Maven89]

to be severely honest i mean most of the **** i say, i just have the balls to say it. i think liking mlp is legitimately concerning, i think that "sexualizing women" is completely and utterly fine in the grand scheme of things, i think being overly sensitive to a person is unfair to them overall, i get massively annoyed when people make a big deal about showing things like homosexuality and how it relates to our community, i think ******** are possibly one of the worst things ever, etc. but most of the time that i handwave something as trolling its because i KNOW that arguing it isnt worth the massive wave of social justice warriors that will inevitably come in and discredit my opinion because it isnt what society today wants to think.

and honestly, dgames probably ISNT the place to voice things like that. but i wont stop doing it if i feel it worth bringing up. i have just as much of a right to support the aryan race as someone else does to say that racism is horrible. do i push it sometimes? yea. do i do it for my own personal gain? yea, and cutting it out would make the room more inviting. but saying people shouldnt grow thicker skin and people should just be nicer is objectively some of the worst advice if you want to like do anything worthwhile in the real world, and if anybody would like to have an intelligent conversation about why i feel that way i'm more than welcome to having it.

Wow, apparently I didn't know you at all. I did not expect you to come in and just give everyone here the finger.

You have no right to be here. This place is a privileged, and it can easily be revoked. The fact that almost every single person here is saying "gorf cut if out, you're destroying this place" and you reply with essentially "LOL **** U" shows me all I need to know about you as a person.

This place has a problem, it's you, and if you think that's funny you're just a childish little **** who shouldn't be here.

 

[Orboknown]

You make good points @ adumbrodeus . And I don't mean to attack you as a community member or anything, far from it, I'm trying to figure out how to be inclusive to people who are concerned primarily with games and how to play them who are specifically not interested in this exact kind of discussion which some people including myself find offputting and secondary to games.

But no, in this case I was wrong. I see instead what I've been expecting out of the social thread simply wasn't and hasn't ever been what it's been for. Navigating what Acrostic has lovingly defined as verbal fellatio is mostly why I don't post here, I'm just not interested in that depth of discussion, and I get my regular chatter in other places. I literally just don't care to wade through it to get to mafia related issues and topics.



I think I found a new need for the forum in that case.



@#HBC | marshy
@ #HBC | Red Ryu
@Raziek


Would it be possible, and/or can I get permission to create a sticky thread that would be solely for discussing mafia games, the theory of mafia games, how finished games panned out future and present, and how we make and play mafia games role etc. to foster the concept of mafia games in general?

Yes I'm dead serious. I think it's the kind of something we didn't know we were missing until we had it.

We actually do have a mafia theory thread laying arounf here somewhere we can use to that purpose

 

[Orboknown]

I personally think that the easiest solution would be me just not coming back.

Seriously tho, I've not heard **** worse than what I've been here for. It's not really my fault but I'm at the epicenter of it.

At the same time though, you are an example of a problem that can pop up agin in the future