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#HBC | Nabe

Beneath it all, he had H-cups all along
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Can't breathe, but the view is equal to the taste
so in other words you dislike all turn-based rpgs?

i mean, when you cut down to the nitty gritty, it's all numbers. i'm just surprised to hear that from you since i know you really like the persona series.
To be fair, this isn't a problem solely with Bravely Default. I don't really enjoy any RPG where you have four identical characters (battle-wise) to mold into anything of your choosing. Making any decision immediately feels arbitrary, informed only by my knowledge and expectations from other RPGs, to the point that I may as well make a decision based instead on which costume looks good (which might be the design intention). And with job systems in general, there are two mirrored constants, and everybody could (and will, given time enough) end up where they started: as four identical characters once again. So there's zero motivation to see what's next. Of course, there's no plot in the demo, but I very much doubt that plot carries this game, and at Level 10 it already feels like a grindy slog where my interest is only held by the item descriptions, and by the knowledge that playing it at night will result in me more easily falling asleep.

Am I missing something?
 
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#HBC | Nabe

Beneath it all, he had H-cups all along
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Can't breathe, but the view is equal to the taste
If you boil it down, Persona is still get your numbers higher the game. It just depends on how long it has to simmer to reach that point.
SMT is heavy on plot, and keeps you hooked with cool events, the mystery of knowing what ability a demon will get next or how two demons will fuse, and in the newer games, Social Links. These are all welcome distractions from the math. Bravely Default seems to be naked math, like playing Dungeons and Dragons by yourself.
 
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#HBC | Red Ryu

Red Fox Warrior
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I'm not really bothered by games where in the end everyone is identical if the way to get there is turbo grinding, Disgaea.

It is stupid easy and making what you do and learn pointless, FF8/FF10 sort of FF7 but there it was more so how you leveled up your materia and how you could combined them. Something like FFT or FFTA where you can master something and some classes are worthless later on, Squire on anyone not Ramza, but there it had a more limiting factor in both games in how you could customize and level.

But there you're growth is based on your classes growth stats and while you can mix and match abilities, it's still limited so you can't equip everyone you learn.

I get where you are coming from Nabe, and idk about BD since I never played it.

But I don't see a job system handled well really forcing a, "grind to max and everyone is the same" sort of feel that FF8 or FF10 would.
 

BarDulL

Town Vampire
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SMT is heavy on plot, and keeps you hooked with cool events, the mystery of knowing what ability a demon will get next or how two demons will fuse, and in the newer games, Social Links. These are all welcome distractions from the math. Bravely Default seems to be naked math, like playing Dungeons and Dragons by yourself.
BD is pretty heavy on plot as well. the demo has the same numbers/mechanics as the actual game but that's pretty much it though.

To be fair, this isn't a problem solely with Bravely Default. I don't really enjoy any RPG where you have four identical characters (battle-wise) to mold into anything of your choosing. Making any decision immediately feels arbitrary, informed only by my knowledge and expectations from other RPGs, to the point that I may as well make a decision based instead on which costume looks good (which might be the design intention). And with job systems in general, there are two mirrored constants, and everybody could (and will, given time enough) end up where they started: as four identical characters once again. So there's zero motivation to see what's next. Of course, there's no plot in the demo, but I very much doubt that plot carries this game, and at Level 10 it already feels like a grindy slog where my interest is only held by the item descriptions, and by the knowledge that playing it at night will result in me more easily falling asleep.

Am I missing something?
i don't mind that the 4 characters can potentially become the same thing honestly. lots of freedom involved in setting up your party, and it's actually counter intuitive to set up your party members to be exactly the same as you play through the game, so you're going to end up having people doing different roles no matter what anyway. choosing these roles actually really isn't arbitrary if you check the stats of each character, read up on the descriptions of the skills for each job, and test them out a bit to see what works best. and since there are 24 classes (which take forever to max; i didn't max all the classes for each character until well after i had beaten the game into a pulp), there's a ton of different strategies you can employ as a result which is fun to mess with, among other things.
 
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#HBC | ѕoup

The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.
Joined
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Messages
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im playing the demo right now and it seems like none of the classes are helping me much and i keep getting my ass handed to me, maybe because i am trying them out to see what works but

why the **** can't i use magic at the start
 

BarDulL

Town Vampire
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lol soup i'm pretty sure black/white mages are available in the demo right from the getgo, you just need to change the jobs of your characters and that's it IIRC.

edit: OH WAIT! totally forgot, you need to buy the spells first from the magic shop owner in the city
 
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#HBC | Ryker

Netplay Monstrosity
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SMT is heavy on plot, and keeps you hooked with cool events, the mystery of knowing what ability a demon will get next or how two demons will fuse, and in the newer games, Social Links. These are all welcome distractions from the math. Bravely Default seems to be naked math, like playing Dungeons and Dragons by yourself.
I agreed with you. Everything can boil down to the numbers, but it takes a lot more to get Persona's story boiled away. You're over exaggerating Bravely Default. I'm enjoying it, but yes.
 

Circus

Rhymes with Jerkus
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To be fair, this isn't a problem solely with Bravely Default. I don't really enjoy any RPG where you have four identical characters (battle-wise) to mold into anything of your choosing. Making any decision immediately feels arbitrary, informed only by my knowledge and expectations from other RPGs, to the point that I may as well make a decision based instead on which costume looks good (which might be the design intention). And with job systems in general, there are two mirrored constants, and everybody could (and will, given time enough) end up where they started: as four identical characters once again. So there's zero motivation to see what's next. Of course, there's no plot in the demo, but I very much doubt that plot carries this game, and at Level 10 it already feels like a grindy slog where my interest is only held by the item descriptions, and by the knowledge that playing it at night will result in me more easily falling asleep.

Am I missing something?
I guess it depends on how you look at it. Technically, yes, any character can become anything, and they can all master all jobs, if you actually wanted to put in the time and effort to do that. But it's a lot of extra work; in the demo, there are very few jobs with very few skills to learn so it's easier, but in the main game, you're not going to get everyone mastering every job without doing some very excessive grinding, and given that all characters should ideally be filling different roles in the group, as Bardull said, leveling them up in jobs they'll never use seems pointless.

But to say they're identical at the beginning isn't exactly right, as they all have very slight natural tendencies toward certain stats: Ringabel favors speed and evasion, Edea's tanky, Agnes is all about magic and Tiz is balanced in pretty much everything but has the highest base HP, which makes compartmentalizing pretty easy. Early on, I basically just locked each character into an archetype and distributed jobs accordingly, sometimes deviating if I found there was a skill for one one of the jobs that would benefit a character I wasn't planning on promoting that way initially (I remember finding in the demo that the Turn Tables ability from the Red Mage class was a terrific fit for the Ninja).

So the fun for me mainly came in the discovery of what certain jobs could do for my characters in unexpected ways, and how jobs I had already leveled quite a bit aided ones I would get later. For example, the Arcanist, a role you get relatively late, basically exists to be paired with the Black Mage, a role you get very early. So by the time you've just about done all you can with the Black Mage, you have a new role to switch them to and continue using everything they've already learned.

True enough that the story isn't what carries the game, and the characters aren't the best the genre has to offer. Edea's great, and Ringabel is almost great, but Tiz is a bore and Agnes is about the most annoying she could possibly be. So if that's what mainly draws you to RPGs, it may not scratch the itch. But for anyone who enjoys the item management and character growth aspects, Bravely Default's kind of a dream come true. Or at least the first half is.
 

Circus

Rhymes with Jerkus
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Also, it's true that the demo is sort of trial by fire. It doesn't really teach you much directly, so you have to figure out things through failures. You wonder why your black mage can't cast spells until you finally notice that shop in the main city that sells them. You don't know that dungeons will have traps in the overworld until your whole party gets blinded by one the first time. You don't know what enemies are weak to what elements (if any) until you try attacking or happen to have someone equipped with Miscellany abilities.

But once you get in the pocket, it feels really great. At least to me. The fun comes from the discovery. If you knew from the beginning exactly what a Ninja did, I don't think it would be as fun.
 

#HBC | Nabe

Beneath it all, he had H-cups all along
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Can't breathe, but the view is equal to the taste
disclaimer: i intend to buy this game

choosing these roles actually really isn't arbitrary if you check the stats of each character
http://gaming.stackexchange.com/questions/155381/what-does-each-character-specialize-in seems to show that at level 99 they are the same character +/- 3 in basic stats with negligible difference in HP/MP (presumably as Freelancer), which seems enormously close to arbitrary.

and the thing is
that's the point of the game
it's meant to be all about playing it your way, that's why you can choose jobs, and that's why the stat spread is actually quite thin, and that's how it was marketed, including "you can change the difficulty!" right in the trailer to emphasize that this is the game for everyone

But I guess my perspective is, I do better when I'm given a limit, and I haven't felt reasonably constricted yet.
 

Circus

Rhymes with Jerkus
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I see what you're saying about limits. I think in a lot of ways limits actually help you to think and plan creatively. I love, for example, in Fire Emblem, how every character has a default class that directs how that character is shaped. They can often branch a lot, but not everyone can be anything.

With that said, Bravely Default still pretty much does that. It's just that you get to choose how each one starts off. For example, like I said, I chose early on to keep each of my characters within certain archetypes. Tiz ended up becoming my dedicated healer, so he wound up taking on all of the jobs that relate to that because that just made the most sense. I needed a constant healer in my party, and switching it to someone else would have been a lot of unnecessary work. I personally think it's nice that you can change directions with a character if you want to, but doing so requires you to basically undo a lot of work you've done. In practice, it's not really any different than just recruiting a dedicated white mage or a thief, etc, because you have to commit your characters to very specific roles within the group if you want them to be effective. Or at least I found that to be the case.

To put it in perspective, while I got most of my characters to master most of the jobs in the demo just because of how short it was, my characters in the main game really only master about three jobs each, I think, while taking handfuls of skills from other jobs. With 24 jobs in the game to pick from, I would pretty soundly say the game calls for a certain level of specialization.
 
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Circus

Rhymes with Jerkus
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all that being said, you don't have to be enamored with the game
 

#HBC | Dark Horse

Mach-Hommy x Murakami
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Man I can't believe you lame-Os are talking about weeaboo **** when HOLY **** NEW CIV GAME HAS BEEN ANNOUNCED.
 

#HBC | ѕoup

The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.
Joined
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When I was but a wee lad who didn't know anything about SMT, I watched the ending of P3 due to people claiming that the final boss was near impossible. The whole thing intimidated me, and I was shamefully only interested in the 'waifu' aspects. I felt I wasn't ever going to get the game anyway, so the reason I spoilered myself was because of this, and it's something I usually do for games of that sort. Turns out, I actually managed to buy it and enjoy it greatly, but I got up until Janurary or so and doesn't couldn't find steam to properly finish it, knowing what already happened. I still have that unfinished file, and part of the reason that I also didn't want to finish is because I missed out on maxing all social links, and I really wanted Thanatos. I don't know where my PS2 is anymore so I doubt it will ever get finished.
 

Raziek

Charging Limit All Day
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Thanatos isn't the 'Max All Links' reward.

Orpheus Telos is. And he's not even really all that godlike.
 

#HBC | ѕoup

The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.
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you could really make your personas over OP with those queen/king cards like i had an Odin with about 97 magic because why i never used them and with Maziodyne it would do about 500 damage without a mind charge

then of course in P4 the formula to win was just Debilitate + Mind Charge + Hassou Tobi

trumpeter best persona
 

Gova

I'm goin' for it!
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Raz you lied to me. Messiah isn't canon at all. It didn't even make an appearance.

Also, Orpheus Telos is the best in P3. He learns all ragnarock/nifheim/thunderreign etc.. and resists all iirc.

Point is Messiah sucked.
 

Raziek

Charging Limit All Day
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yeah but i never maxed death therefore i couldn't create him
Death maxes automatically through story events.
Raz you lied to me. Messiah isn't canon at all. It didn't even make an appearance.

Also, Orpheus Telos is the best in P3. He learns all ragnarock/nifheim/thunderreign etc.. and resists all iirc.

Point is Messiah sucked.
"Messiah is, upon fusion, the highest-leveled Persona in Persona 3. He is also the final persona of the Judgement Arcana, which can only be accessed by venturing to the final level of Tartarus. Messiah can also only be obtained by fusing Orpheus and Thanatos in the Velvet Room once the Protagonist reaches Lv. 90 or above.

During the ending credits, Messiah can also be seen inside the protagonist's silhouette, indicating that Messiah is his "true" ultimate Persona (which is also an allusion to the protagonists' role to the story)."

"While Messiah is the Ultimate Persona of the Protagonist, he doesn't have any "special" skills, like Odin's Thunder Reign, Alice's Die For Me!, or Daisoujou's Samsara. To make up for this, Persona 3 Portableintroduced a special skill unique to Messiah called "Magic Skill Up". This skill (unable to be inherited by other Personas) enhances all Spell-based attacks by 50%, making Messiah the strongest Spell-user in the game. It also makes his Megidolaon stronger than the standard Morning Star, though Morning Star may be fused onto Messiah for the strongest Almighty attack in the game (sans Armageddon). Additionally, with proper inheritance or through the use of skill cards, you can stack Boost + Amp + Magic Skill Up to have the ultimate single-target Elemental Spell."
 

#HBC | ѕoup

The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.
Joined
Sep 15, 2010
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Death maxes automatically through story events.
well **** im not bluffing or anything i've legit played the game but i remembered i screwed up something

oh now i remember it was elizabeth's quests you have to do them on a certain date and if you didn't then you were ****ed

i didnt do any of them
 

ranmaru

Smash Legend
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Feb 10, 2008
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So remember that girl that became my girlfriend that only lasted for a text?

Well I kissed her today and asked her to be my gf again and she said yeah.

So yeah. I guess mission compleet
 

#HBC | J

Prince of DGamesia
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Feb 14, 2010
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Colorado
So J blonde ditzy moment:

I just realized we call "flips" in mafia "flips" because the game was originally a card-game and to find people's roles you would flip over their card to see what they were.

Been playing this game for so long and I just now got it.
 
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