DGames Archive (Updated: SEP 19th 2014)

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Once more: there isn't significant damage being done and there is benefit from the institution of MVPs because people enjoy recognition. If it's not broke, don't fix it.

They do but if only 1 person gets it, then people will fight over it post game. Or people will not agree with it and rant Or people will agree with it and rant.

I just don't care for it because it adds incentive to do what Circus said rather than what happens in games where no MVP is handed out, where a fanction universally plays well.

It rewards one persons play, not a teams.

I don't support that in a game where team work is far far more valuable than one person trying to run the show by him/herself.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Dice are still a good way to advertise dGames

1 game played = red dice
5 games won = gold dice

or summit

 

[Xivii]

Summit ?

 

[#HBC | Acrostic]

Two things. First, the analysis over incentives is over-simplified. Assuming an MVP award will invite solo-play is misleading because the context of a mafia game clearly has a well established background for requiring varying levels of team play and cooperation. People neglect to consider that such awards may enable better team play by increasing individual cooperation and a desire for acknowledgment therefore making their thoughts, opinions, and actions more transparent and facilitates smoother reads among townies. Positioning solo-play and team-play as black and white is an misrepresentation of the two elements in a game and I believe both aspects are more cohesive and interchangeable when it comes to actual enforcement.

Second, look at the rhetoric we're using. Circus mentions potential and Red Ryu mentions incentives, but I'm curious what is the current state of Dgames and whether the MVP system is something that hurts actual games according to people who believe that it is a negative factor. I'm not so much a fan of could be or would be as I am interested in what has been going on in games recently and whether it's transparent that they are being jeopardized by selfish solo-play inspired by people trying to win the MVP award.

 

[Xivii]

I'll get at you when I'm home on a cpu.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

something.
10char

 

[Circus]

I'm not so much a fan of could be or would be as I am interested in what has been going on in games recently and whether it's transparent that they are being jeopardized by selfish solo-play inspired by people trying to win the MVP award.

Whether or not it's specifically inspired by the pursuit of MVP, I would say the underlined is pretty much exactly what usually ruins games. I, like Private, haven't even seen anyone with dice turned on in ages, so I would hesitate to declare how much of that play is actually a direct result of the MVP system (probably not most, I'll admit. We're all just assholes).

But the way I see it, even the best case scenario for the system is sort of redundant. Ryker mentioned that people like recognition for their play; I agree. And that recognition often comes in postgame from the player base. If you played well, you usually get some shout outs for that play, and then you move onto the next game. If that happens often enough, then the player starts to gain notoriety within the community just through word of...post. That's why players like Marshy, frozen, etc. have reputations without dice. Dice, as they are currently implemented, just act as a badge of honor for a one off performance, given based on one person's subjective view of the game (winning MVP in a game hosted by Gheb, for example, would be much harder than it would be in a game hosted by me). I've won MVP for games in which I do not think I deserved to receive it, and have not won MVP for games in which I've actually played my best. The lack of consistency in terms for receiving MVP diminishes its value. Making a name for yourself the old-fashioned way is worth more anyway, so dice are pretty pointless.

There are two main arguments for why we should even have dice in the first place: advertise Dgames and recognize good play. Dice for participating in games solves the former; dice for being apart of the winning faction in games solves (both, but moreso) the latter (yes, there will be deadweight on a team that receives the reward in this scenario; that's a small and unavoidable caveat and is certainly not more broken than the current system. If your hockey team wins the game, your goalie still wins with you even if he or she didn't block a single shot).

Although since we're talking about this, dice as an icon are a terribly ironic choice for a symbol of recognition anyway (did you win something or did you just get lucky?) A trophy icon or something along those lines would make more sense.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

The problem with the mvp system has nothing to do with anything outside of the game (teasing/ruining friendships. That stuff doesn't really happen). @acro @kary

V V V

20 years from now do you honestly want your children going to school and made fun of by other little kids flashing their golden dice in their face snickering "lmao look at that lame he aint got no mvp" ? to be judged over something so inconsequential?

 

[#HBC | Kary]

What none of you seem to appreciate is that I will never be able to cement myself as better at mafia than X1 without getting dice.

I mean, I've never got myself modkilled in my first post, but still...

Does my petty rivalry mean nothing to you?

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

Replace dice with achievement system

"Played an OS game"
"Won 3 games as town"
"Was on a correct lynch in lylo"
"hosted two games"

and make nabe keep track of it all

You kid (and hilariously so) but if I were the person in charge of making sure these things got handed out, I'd lovingly keep track of all the dry, dusty minutia.


If this all cuts into the rest of the forum achievements somehow in a nebulous future, it will have to be fair admittance for the rest of the forum. It seems easy to us, because we're here all the time, but the barrier for coming and staying can be very high at times. And if someone with no interest in DGames wants to get all the points or whatever, they shouldn't have to invest a year+ of time to DGames to achieve it. So they complete one game, they get their points, and gain the positive reenforcement of, "Hey, we enjoyed your play and would love to see more of you." And if they stick around, they earn respect and belonging. If people aren't forced to jump through too many hoops, they can develop an appreciation for what actually goes on here during their visit.

would newbies be excluded from that?

If a player finishes a newbie and never plays again, we still want them to walk away with something to show to other people. And some people skip newbies and go right into playing a normal game. Bearing in mind that barrier to entry should be very low:

White Dice: One game in the bag, a stamp of approval for an unusual time commitment. You weren't sure what you were getting into, but you put your foot in the door anyway. Good on you.

Red Dice: Two games, replaces white. You came back for round two, which means you're interested in the people and the games, even if you didn't start out that way. The change in colour signifies that difference in thought, and shows that, with your name now appearing in multiple games, the rest of the players are seeing you as a DGamer rather than as an isolated event.

Gold Dice: 5 or 10 games, achievable without being too much. Doesn't necessarily replace the previous dice. At this point, you may or may not be done with DGames, but you've left your mark on the community. You've made friends. Players in the future are going to remember that you were here. Ranmarus of the future are going to read you in the archives. Your time commitment here isn't just non-trivial to new players anymore, it's also now non-trivial to those of us who spend a month here in a blink.

Pink Dice: 20 or 30 -- you stuck around for longer than a lot of people do, you're probably still here to this day, and you play objectively well, because otherwise by this point you'd have left. Pink, considered a silly colour, because at this point the actual fact of achieving it doesn't matter to you. Quite a few people have met this already, and if they're still here, they're probably not going anywhere. For those who haven't met this, it's something to look forward to fondly, but without being a driving force behind staying.

 

[Aggressive Mediation]

My statement, and then I'm done unless there's something relevant:

Current system does not cause difficulties in games. Only problems exist in post game and normally even that leads to analysis of faults that a player can find useful. If it's mean-spirited moreso than what we already tolerate out of the ****heads that start crap here then that should be rectified by the community and would show in post-game analysis anyway 9 times out of 10. Current system also reinforces a good performance. Advertisement is not a big deal. To be honest, until Smash 4 brings more intelligent posters (not 13 year olds) and a resurgence on SWF, we're at about as good as it's gonna get.

Proposed system is being proposed to eliminate phantom problems and doesn't give players the lasting recognition that current system does. Being realistic, looking back over an archive complete with MVPs is going to immediately cause players to look at the job that the recipient did instead of the game washing over them in a sea of names if the game in question wasn't specific to that player.

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

Speaking practically, I'd be happy to grab some new players here and there, but meanwhile get the word out prior to Smash 4 that DGames is the best corner of the forum. The right time to do that is now, not in the moment when people get here.


But I actually think that this idea gives all players much more lasting and meaningful recognition than at present. It's show versus tell, and for me, a thousand words are worth a thousand words.

When I first got to AiB, I engaged in all sorts of social discussion with the playerbase. In lieu of MVP awards, they had names they talked about with reverence. Riddle. Sprite. Dacidbro. Ryker. I wanted to live up to these players, whose names people would say with weight, with all the hidden and meaningful context lying underneath. It was thrilling -- all these epic people are in this village, and it's up to me to find out which of them are the secret killers while I'm investigating under their noses. And when I came here, there were new names being talked about. marshy, Frozenflame, Evil Eye, Eor. Swiss and X1 were the hot couple at the time, and I followed their bromance like they were celebrity figures. Those players are still stars to me, even though I've seeped through the fiction to reach this side.

We're a great community of people. That's meaningful, and that's what should last. I still tell great DGames stories about all of you everywhere else I play mafia, and none of them include the moment after. I am always going to care about that time I snatched victory from the jaws of defeat when things were at their bleakest, and I am never going to care that I got an award for it. I care that people know I'm a DGamer, with all of the lore that entails.

 

[Circus]

what a geek

i love you nabe

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Being realistic, looking back over an archive complete with MVPs is going to immediately cause players to look at the job that the recipient did instead of the game washing over them in a sea of names if the game in question wasn't specific to that player.

I take it that you agree with me then, that a good 50% of the MVP awards handed out were not actually justified?

 

[Xatres]

I see both sides to this debate, but I do agree that the MVP system does cause some friction post-game when people start arguing over it. I think the completed games system is an adequate replacement.

I'd still like to see some system for recognizing good play, specifically one that can recognize both individual play and team play. Maybe something like adding a game summary or blow-by-blow to the archive that gives the mod a chance to give recognition where it is due.

Gheb's recent G3S game is a great example of where the MVP system falls short in this regard. Town played a stellar game, as a team, which meant pretty much no one got MVP. There ought to be some kind of recognition for such games.

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

Viva la no mvps

Cooperation is essential in mafia, and an MVP system offers incentive for ignoring that and instead going with LOOKATMEIMSOMLG.

 

[Aggressive Mediation]

I take it that you agree with me then, that a good 50% of the MVP awards handed out were not actually justified?

I agree that about half were unjustified by your criteria. Only about 20% by mine. However, I think it doesn't matter because the point has devolved from a meaningful record to a reinforcement of good play. Mostly due to you, EE, and me pointing out that there are no solid standards for MVP distribution.

 

[Rajam]

If a player finishes a newbie and never plays again, we still want them to walk away with something to show to other people. And some people skip newbies and go right into playing a normal game. Bearing in mind that barrier to entry should be very low:

White Dice: One game in the bag, a stamp of approval for an unusual time commitment. You weren't sure what you were getting into, but you put your foot in the door anyway. Good on you.

Red Dice: Two games, replaces white. You came back for round two, which means you're interested in the people and the games, even if you didn't start out that way. The change in colour signifies that difference in thought, and shows that, with your name now appearing in multiple games, the rest of the players are seeing you as a DGamer rather than as an isolated event.

Gold Dice: 5 or 10 games, achievable without being too much. Doesn't necessarily replace the previous dice. At this point, you may or may not be done with DGames, but you've left your mark on the community. You've made friends. Players in the future are going to remember that you were here. Ranmarus of the future are going to read you in the archives. Your time commitment here isn't just non-trivial to new players anymore, it's also now non-trivial to those of us who spend a month here in a blink.

Pink Dice: 20 or 30 -- you stuck around for longer than a lot of people do, you're probably still here to this day, and you play objectively well, because otherwise by this point you'd have left. Pink, considered a silly colour, because at this point the actual fact of achieving it doesn't matter to you. Quite a few people have met this already, and if they're still here, they're probably not going anywhere. For those who haven't met this, it's something to look forward to fondly, but without being a driving force behind staying.

+1. Also, newbies should be considered.

White Dice: 1 game completed
Red Dice: 3 games completed
Golden Dice: 10 games completed
Pink/Platinum Dice: 30 games completed

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

Gheb's recent G3S game is a great example of where the MVP system falls short in this regard. Town played a stellar game, as a team, which meant pretty much no one got MVP. There ought to be some kind of recognition for such games.

Yeh but there are games where individual players do outright save or win games for their factions and I think it's fair these players get recognition.

 

[#HBC | Acrostic]

Good players should be recognized. And those who weren't recognized should recognize that those who were recognized deserve to be recognized. There should be no spilled milk at the end of games and everyone should respect each other and have good will. There should also be no more starving children in the world, no more miscarriages, no more children soldiers, and more unwanted ******* children who are circulated around through the foster care system until they become disillusioned and jaded with the world. There should also be no more hunger, no more crime, no more ridiculous wealth disparity, and no more minimum wage. Everyone should be paid sufficiently to afford housing, food, and basic utilities like gas and electricity. There should be no more warfare or wars. I believe that our new system should encapsulate all these things and if we can do this by either giving out participation awards to things with a pulse or by creating a fictitious system where the unanimously good players get recognized without fail by some omnipotent mafia god that dwells in the sky and rules over all that is mafia in nature.

 

[Overswarm]

Logic time

MVPs are perfect for DGames. They're a way to give people respect in-game that they would not otherwise deserve (thus people want them) and we have a built-in distribution system (mod). MVPs should be given out for good plays only or players that made sure town won. This does not occur 100% of the time. This results in a dilution of "respect in-game that they would not otherwise deserve" as you can't just see dice and say "this guy is good". MVPs are given out for both town and scum play; I am an okay Town player but am a phenomenal scum player and received my first two dice from scum (pretty sure). This gives me respect in town that was earned via scum play, which doesn't fit either.

This is continuous, making it less likely for dice to actually mean anything. This isn't even touching the surface of how the built-in distribution system can fail (mods not paying attention, etc.).

Conclusion: MVP is great but as the distribution system does not result in near 100% effectiveness due to its dynamic nature (one mod would choose differently than another), it falls short.


Solutions:

Making MVP/Dice come from static results. "You were on at least 50% of the mafia lynches, didn't hammer town, didn't kill or role block a townie with a night action" or some other combination for each faction, or have a list of qualifications that can make you get MVP and allow multiples.

Making MVP/Dice come from player information. Make mafia send in a PM to the mod saying "the following person will be lynched tomorrow: (name)" and town send in a PM to the mod saying "the following people are non-town: (name, name, name). This gives concrete information and actually shows who is correct in their assumptions at each Night phase. Those who do not participate cannot get MVP/Dice, those who do can only get MVP/Dice by getting a certain % correct or being the "most correct" out of all other participants over the entire game.

Making MVP/Dice come from player voting. At the end of the game, have all members vote for MVP. If a "lynch" doesn't occur, no MVP.

Replace MVP is a "this won't hurt your feelings" reward system. "You've played X games, congratulations!" "You've wasted X years of your life here!"

Replace MVP with a win/loss % for each faction.

Remove MVP altogether.

 

[#HBC | Acrostic]

Also there is a current problem with Dgames that is caused by the MVP system. But if you expect to be arsed to actually show how the MVP system has psychologically brainwashed us into becoming arrogant and self-oriented achievement-holics then you are delusional. I don't have the concern or consideration to put away that much free time to actually prove my point and the burden of proof should lie on the people who are saying that there is nothing wrong with the current way we do things, because there is. I just don't have the time to prove it right now. Similarly I've noticed that I don't have a lot of time to put actual leg work into my mafia games. I don't really bother with proving my point or thinking it completely through, nor do I bother to verify whether my first opinion could in fact be mistaken or wrong by actual game events. I choose to play as close to lazy as possible because I just want to manipulate and play nice with people I'm around currently so they think well of me and we can all think well of each other. I'm just hanging out and relaxing in a mafia game, having a good time with good company. That is what these mafia things are about right? I assure you at some point mafia will slip without someone pushing and our lukewarm attitude will assuredly result in all the mafia popping out of the wood work. No need to stress. After all I have no need for an MVP award, I already know that I'm a winner at life.

 

[Overswarm]

That's loser talk acrostic.

 

[Dabuz]

OS, your idea is silly and unnecessary.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Making MVP/Dice come from player voting. At the end of the game, have all members vote for MVP. If a "lynch" doesn't occur, no MVP.

Decent idea tbh

I'd cockblock 'em all though!

 

[#HBC | Acrostic]

That's loser talk acrostic.

What can I do Overswarm. All the evidence points towards a logical conclusion.

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

Yeh but there are games where individual players do outright save or win games for their factions and I think it's fair these players get recognition.

"Laundry played really well in this game I've just run and really turned the game around for his faction. Frankly, the rest did poorly and he deserves a pile of credit."

"I agree, our faction was having trouble with the W and Laundry made the decisive play."

"Hey, remember that time Laundry wrecked all of town's momentum at the clutch moment? What a beast."

 

[Xivii]

Against MVP: Zen, Gorf, Circus, Ruy, Dietz, Rake, Vandy, marshy, Gova, Ruy, Xonar, Orbo, TRG, PJB, Hando, Raz, Nabe, Xatres, Dark Horse, B, S, L (he's worth three men)

For MVP: Kary, Ryker, Laundry, Acrostic, Seph, dabuz, Kantrip, OS

Indifferent: soup, Gheb

Alright so first off we have two discussions going on here: MVP system and post bit system. Let’s not forget that they are separate. You can have MVP without it being connected to postbits and you can have postbits without them being connected to MVP.


W.r.t MVP system:

Now within this there are basically 3 separate arguments against the MVP system.

1. The Solo (In-game) Argument
2. The Ranting Argument
3. Inefficient Standards Argument

While we all agree on what must be done (the abolishment of the MVP system) all of the opponents of the MVP system may not exactly agree on why it needs to be done. So be weary that arguing against someone about a point they don't agree with may come off as strawmany. From what I gather here is a rough lay down of the reasoning behind the vocal opponents.

Solo Argument : Zen, Gorf, Circus, Ruy, Dietz, Rake, Vanderzant, Dark Horse
Rant Argument: marshy, Gova, Ruy, Dietz, Xastern
Standard Argument: Xonar

Feel free to let me know if I have your reasoning wrong, didn't include your reasoning, or if you agree with more than just one of the arguments.

Solo Argument is below. Rant Argument is basically the unfairness of it and the bickering post games about who should be MVP. Standard argument is that MVP would be good if there was a better standard for picking MVP.


Why I think the MVP system needs to go

As Gorf, Circus, and Ruy have said MVP is all about the individual. This makes no sense in a game about group discussion, cooperation, and majority vote. Mafia is a democratic game at its core.

I definitely agree there are "more valuable" players than others in each game. Generally, if there is a player that if you were to remove them from the game, then their faction would have likely lost, you could consider them as one of the most valuable players. So yeah, value among players when looking back upon a game does exist; however, the difference in value of the highest valued player and the other players is not so often great enough to the point where the other players' value is miniscule in comparison. Furthermore, there are so many contributing factors to a victory in mafia that pointing out the reason for winning to just one or two players is generally pretty absurd. Each statement and each vote by each person leads up to the outcome of a game.
[Collapse=Example]Let's take for instance Fire Emblem: Awakening where Zen got MVP. I was clearly amazing in that game. And I do not think scum had a good chance of winning had I been replaced with a player with a different personality than mine. But the thing is, it was the style, background, and personality of each of the scum members that brought upon victory. If you were to replace either FML or dabuz with perfect brownie-townie robot players with no personality or background, we just as likely may not have won. FML noticed many things that neither dabuz or myself picked up on which contributed to the over all strategy of the team. His influence on Ranjam's reads may have very well kept Ranjam from having a strong influence on town's side. His constant posting kept the posting habits of everyone else veiled and the light on him for most of the game. In fact his posting habits were likely the primary cause for Xastrn giving up on keeping track of his post counts which directly benefited dabuz and myself. Then we have dabuz' knowledge of the game and set up. Probably the greatest advantage we had in the game, allowing us to actually play strategically. And you have Dabuz' direct influence on Ruy and indirect influence on Ranjam's slot being viewed in a negative light. There are so many factors that go into the build up of a game. They just aren't secluded enough to give credit of a win to just one person.[/collapse]

This is not only a team game, but a game where each player actually depends on one another for victory. Each player is a cog in a machine and each cog contributes to running that machine. I think the best way to show you why MVP doesn't make sense for this game is this:

Take any sport or game where there can be an MVP (which even then they are determined by an entire seasons worth of play, not just a single game). If all the players except for one on each team were to do nothing, would it still be possible for one of the teams to win? Yes. Basketball , Football, Baseball, Soccer, etc. While each of those are team sports, an individual can still succeed in obtaining the victory conditions without a team. This is not the case for mafia, and why I use the analogy of cogs in a machine. Just as cogs rely on all the others to move and function, each mafia player relies on each other to play and win. Without the participation of other players, there is absolutely no way for an individual to win. From this you can extrapolate that it is truly the team that brings about victory, not the individual.


Now what I've said so far only establishes why MVP isn't justifiable. Now for why it is a problem. Again as has been said, the MVP system puts far too much focus on the individual over the team. This puts strain on the game. It's like all the cogs are working against each other. With the MVP system, the game is no longer about playing to win, it's about playing to be right. Playing to be the hero that stands above the rest. That's not the way this game should work at all. @Acrostic, the MVP system causes precisely the opposite of what you are fighting for. The system does not support cooperative play, the essential element of the game and winning the game. It brings forth the incentive to:

-Keep things to oneself for fear of looking bad by being wrong.
-Outlive others on your team even when it is otherwise beneficial.
-Strive for thread power and Rykeresque play when you don't have Rykeresque talent.
-Down play the contribution of others, over play that contribution of yourself.

Each of the first three are good in their own right when for the goal of winning not for the goal of self recognition. Obviously there are many times when it's in best interest to keep things to yourself. But for one to do so for the sake of not wanting to be wrong, that has a negative impact on your faction. Discussion is fuel for the game and all input is valuable. Outliving others is beneficial when it is for the sake of victory. Such as when you are an essential PR or for those who believe they are better inclined to make the right call over their team mates. But striving to outlive the other players simply to be put in the position over the game's fate, the position of the hero, negatively affects the game. I remember before the MVP system when VTs would actually attempt to draw the night kill away from PRs. The MVP system takes away the incentive to play the game to its fullest in this way. You're probably not going to get MVP if you're dead by N1. The thread power thing again is beneficial for those who believe they are better inclined to make the right decisions over their team mates, but doing so simply for the sake of being in the hero position, again, negatively affects the game.

The last thing, the down playing of the contribution of others has no benefit inside or outside the MVP system, but only the MVP system encourages it. How are we to better ourselves when we overplay our abilities and refrain from giving accurate, constructive feedback to others. I think the thing I miss most about the pre-MVP dgames were the post-game shout outs. They've been resurfacing though and I can only imagine that it is correlated with the disappearance of the MVP related postbit.


Acrostic, I believe I answered your 3 out of 4 of your inquiries with this post and now to answer the fourth: What type of community I would like with the end of the MVP system. There is one good thing that came with the MVP system and that is activity. Compared to pre-MVP times games are much more active. I don't know if that has to do with the MVP system itself or if the community has just naturally weeded out the people who weren't really interested enough to invest their time into the game. But I do know that there is a correlation between the creation of the MVP system and the increase of activity within games. Furthermore , I also like what the MVP system has tried to do and as you, Acrostic, want it to do. And that is influence great play. As I have shown, the MVP system has done just the opposite. But the statistician (Rajam) and I do have something that I believe will achieve that goal. And I believe it will satisfy Ryker and Laundry as well, if what they desire is truly as they say.


The Ladder

I don't think people will take them at all as "skill". It's just really interesting to have. And they provide incentive to play well. And if it adds competition well competition is good and what makes games fun. And unlike the MVP system, Records provide incentive for players to win for their faction where as MVP provides incentive to win for yourself. MVP doesn't encourage team play where as records do.

I understand where you could have concerns about it making the game into something it's not about, but I don't think peeps would stoop to that. People are more than numbers, but numbers still share some cool insight.

So here is where marshy and I have not seen eye-to-eye (yet…). I believe that a ladder based on win-loss records is the next step after getting rid of the MVP system. This will be maintained by Rajam and will be easy to do as he already has a YTD of all the wins-losses that he has not yet posted due to fear of controversy. The reason why I like this is because it's competitive while at the same time encourages maximum play among one's faction. On top of this, it satisfies Ryker and Laundry's (and perhaps others?) wish for players to be recognized for their achievements. People can strive for the top and the way to get there is to work with your faction and win games. I was thinking we have a yearly or bi-yearly ladder and then a separate YTD collection. This will allow players to have a fresh start and because the ladder is based on amount of wins it will allow new players a fair start come the new year (or new season if bi-yearly). Any player who plays mafia will be a part of this, but may choose to opt out (same as marshy did in the records thread).Now I can see perhaps marshy and Gheb and maybe EE having a problem with this because people will get a win counted even if they played badly in a game. I will just say that's a part of the nature of this game and you gotta suck it up. In the long run that doesn't have much affect on the overall standing of the ladder based on what I've seen of Rajam's YTD. Especially with the standard that he uses: Games that are replaced into and lost do not count towards record; games that are replaced out of and won do not count towards record. But anyways, the ladder is going to be put up (starting the new year?) regardless of MVP stuff and is not a part of the MVP argument. I just wanted to let Acro know that there are plans to incentivize great play and to satisfy Laundry and Ryker's desire for their to be recognition for great play. I feel that the ladder brings the best of both sides. We get to keep competition while supporting cooperative and constructive play.


W.r.t postbits: I personally think that the dgames postbit should just be something you get when you're accepted to the dgames group (via request) similar to the debate hall. Once you've shown you're apart of the community, you show the mod, make the request and there you go. I think that would be best, but I could definitely settle for Nabe's proposal

 

[Xatres]

Yeh but there are games where individual players do outright save or win games for their factions and I think it's fair these players get recognition.

Wasn't saying they shouldn't. I was just saying that a different system might allow for honoring both individuals and groups.

 

[JTB]

MVP: Zen

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

I have an idea! What about a DGames tier list :o!

 

[Xatres]

I'd be down for a ladder system + some kind of community-based postbit.

 

[BSL]

Thanks for forgetting me zen

 

[Xivii]

Thanks for forgetting me zen

Fixed with an I'm sorry note.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Since I literally had nothing better to do I decided to count the amount of sucessfully finished games by some people. I did not count games where the player replaced out ...

[collapse="20 or more games"]Bardull, Chaco, Chibo, Handorin, Riddle - 20
July - 21
Joey, Nicholas1024 - 22
Cello Marl, th3kuzinator - 23
Overswarm, Raziek, Ronike - 24
Dark Horse - 25
Gorf, JTB - 26
Kantrip, Sworddancer, X1-12 - 27[/collapse]

[collapse="30 or more games"]Swiss - 31
Jungle - 32
Ryker - 33
Ranmaru - 34
Nabe - 35
Macman, mentosman8 - 36
Rockin - 39[/collapse]

[collapse="40 or more games"]Zen - 41
frozenflame175 - 44
KevinM - 46
soup - 49
J, Red Ryu - 52
Gheb_01 - 63[/collapse]

It's possible that I miss people or have miscounted for some :3

 

[~ Gheb ~]

B, S, L (he's worth three men)

I can confirm he is!

 

[Xivii]

Awesome dude!

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

I ran a seasonal ladder on another site where I wanted a system that wasn't the MVP system here, but that still incentivized good play. It worked fairly well. I've always thought it would be a good idea here, as long as it were run actively rather than passively; seasons contain a certain number of games, mods opt their queued games in or out of the ranked season, there's some post-season incentive for playing a season such as an all-star game, etcetera. But all that would be a radical revamp and take active participation. I don't see much point otherwise.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

**** Ladders

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

well then