DFW Brawl Thread: Batou Monthly, Feb 18th - Revolution 10, Mar 3rd

[mydadsacop123]

we need moar starters MOAR
I'd say sample bath for one

 

[Genie]

but how did they test PS1 has lower than normal ceiling?

They might have used a Mario in training mode (or any set character, Mario just seems to be an easy middle-ground) and fresh Usmash him with a set character on each stage, raising his starting percent until he died.

 

[KY_Des]

*waves* Hi Infinity

im not dallas...and also i could take any player from kansas too...

Lol ok. Come to NO KOAST. We'd be happy to take your money =]
link-> http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=209701&highlight=koast+kansas+tournament

 

[8AngeL8]

hahaha laughing in lab so hard right now. Who made this joke account? So many props need to be given

It's mine, lol. All the science talk reminded me of the show so I threw together a joke accout real quick.

 

[Genie]

It's mine, lol. All the science talk reminded me of the show so I threw together a joke accout real quick.

I miss my days in middle school watching Bill Nye in science class.

 

[d4bA]

Not saying you are wrong, but how did they test PS1 has lower than normal ceiling?

and platform spread doesn't count as a reason, cause it was that same in melee.

Excuse me. I mean sometimes the ps1 changes can create a higher than normal ceiling. Take d3's u.tilt vs falco on smashville, BF, FD, YI and PS1. The u.tilt kills falco at 97% on every stage but ps1. During certain transformations, the ceiling will rise and fall. For example, the windmill section creates a higher ceiling than the standard pokemon stadium ceiling.

The platform layout makes some strategies with certain characters stronger than others. See zero suit samus on ps1.

 

[Kates893]

I miss my days in middle school watching Bill Nye in science class.

Yeah, srsly. Bill Nye was the shizz.

 

[PhantomX]

Billy Nye was amazing, I grew up on that fool.

"Did you know THAT!? Well NOW you KNOW!"

 

[Infinitysmash]

fall through stage (forest area) glitch is maybe a reason. Lower roof than *normal* may be another reason. Spread out platforms without one in the middle would be a reason. A couple transformations lead to wall infinites (if your d3 an even easier infinite). Just a few reasons off the top of my head.

By this same logic Smashville should also be removed from Neutral stages. The sides are significantly shorter than the other neutrals and this is easily abusable by characters with strong side-hitting attacks at pretty low percentages. (Wario's forward smash and smart fart; Snake's forward tilt; Metaknight's Shuttle Loop, down smash and forward smash; Game and Watch's forward smash, forward air, down tilt, and Fireman (or whatever his up b is called); and this is just off the top of my head)

PS1 is fine. The rock transformation isn't bad because once a character obtains control of a zone it becomes very hard to fight them for it; this goes for every zone of the stage, which allows both players to gain control of a zone and wait for a whopping ZOMG 30 SECONDS max without giving up any sort of stage control or taking any damage. The glitch where a player can fall through the stage isn't a legitimate reason; that'd be like removing Yoshi's because Lucas can blast himself inside of the stage on the side. Seriously, how many times have you had that happen to you or heard of it happening in all of the tournaments we've gone to?

So following this same train of logic Final D also needs to be removed because it's easy for several characters to abuse the no-platform advantage of the stage. (Snake, Falco, Fox, Wolf, Zero Suit Samus, Yoshi, Lucas, and Diddy off the top of my head) This generates an unfair advantage over the close-range characters. There's also no way to out-zone someone on Final D which creates an inherently bad map since there's really nothing to fight for except for a little bit of ground in the same area. The only strategy there is on Final D is to pressure your opponent towards the edge and then edge guard them. (unless you're one of the aformentioned characters who can abuse the stage) So effectively the players are fighting for control of both ledges, which doesn't provide any sort of in-depth fighting for either player to gain any sort of strategic advantage.

All of this thinking leaves us with Battlefield as the only neutral and even that stage has a ton of abusable tricks with the platforms.

You guys are out-thinking yourselves. You're blaming issues on the stage when if you, as an experienced and knowledgeable player, can avoid them with proper positioning and not-being-a-******-edness. If you know something is coming don't set yourself up for it. PS1 is a good neutral because it doesn't favor any specific characters, nearly everyone has some kind of trick they can do at different parts of the stage. To be honest: everything you guys are complaining about you should instead be cheering about. Why say it's a problem and make the game un-fun by complaining when you can just roll with it and use the knowledge to your advantage instead?

 

[Genie]

Why say it's a problem and make the game un-fun by complaining when you can just roll with it and use the knowledge to your advantage instead?

Complaining is an entirely different thing than expressing honest opinions or debating the pros and cons of different stages being used as neutrals.

On a side note: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjpVQbNpGKo

 

[Slaps]

Very well put Infinity =]

 

[d4bA]

You make good points Infinity. I suppose that is why this game is so much fun. Making sure your opponent doesn't go to the stage that he wants to or play against the character that he wants to.

Oh btw, I love your changed location status.

 

[8AngeL8]

And by YOUR logic, Infinity, Mushroomy Kingdom and Spear Pillar should be neutrals because you should see hazards coming and not set yourself up for them. I know you don't support those stages, but you see what I mean? You can always avoid hazards, but it's a question of whether or not they generate a reasonable amount of interference with the course of the match.

A neutral, I think, should not get in the way of two players fighting each other. There should be some platform variation to allow for different characters, but in general it should just be player vs. player. A stage like PS1 has significant interference in the course of a match. You yourself admitted that the one part encourages camping and stalling. Not to mention the fact that a wall infinite can lead to a single mistake costing a stock. That's fine in a counterpick, but NOT a neutral.

 

[Infinitysmash]

You make good points Infinity. I suppose that is why this game is so much fun. Making sure your opponent doesn't go to the stage that he wants to or play against the character that he wants to.

Oh btw, I love your changed location status.

Gracias señor

And by YOUR logic, Infinity, Mushroomy Kingdom and Spear Pillar should be neutrals because you should see hazards coming and not set yourself up for them. I know you don't support those stages, but you see what I mean? You can always avoid hazards, but it's a question of whether or not they generate a reasonable amount of interference with the course of the match.

Actually on Spear Pillar you can't see what's going to happen. When the Pokemon in the background moves you can't tell whether it's going to jump out and hit you, shoot a giant beam, turn the stage upside down or make time slow.

But I'm all for Mushroomy Kingdom <3

A neutral, I think, should not get in the way of two players fighting each other. There should be some platform variation to allow for different characters, but in general it should just be player vs. player. A stage like PS1 has significant interference in the course of a match. You yourself admitted that the one part encourages camping and stalling. Not to mention the fact that a wall infinite can lead to a single mistake costing a stock. That's fine in a counterpick, but NOT a neutral.

Not so much camping and stalling as stage control and smart play. This just inherently generates roughly 30 seconds of "stalling" from both players and then the stage changes and everything goes back to normal. Yes, the stage changing does cause interference but I don't think it's as significant as you're making it sound. Most of the interference caused by the stage simply makes the players adapt to the stage change rather than cost them a stock, which in turn favors the better player.

<shrug> Maybe my perception is skewed because my character hauls *** and has a million jumps, but PS1 doesn't seem all that bad to me.

 

[8AngeL8]

I'll agree that it's CLOSE to being neutral, but it just seems to have a few too many issues, you know? Just the fact that there are potential infinites for parts removes it from the neutral list for me, but throw in the way that transformations can screw people out of grabs and the aforementioned "stage control" (AKA stalling), and it just has too many problems to be neutral for me.

I know Lylat has its share of problems too, such as exaggerating poor recoveries, but it seems better to me. The tilting can force one into a bad position against camp, but so can PS1, and you can never infinite on Lylat.

For the record, how close the walls on he neutrals are isn't an issue to me. Smashville has close walls, and I don't think anyone would put that anywhere but neutral.

 

[samusedaway]

I lean more toward that than items on FFA type play, yes.

My dislike for Skyworld has nothing to do with whether it's a good stage for my character or not. I don't think it's a fair stage. I understand why people play with items and crazy stages, I even do it sometimes. However, I don't think it has a place in tournament play.

Yes, counterpicks are supposed to give a character an advantage. However, certain stages make the fight more about the stage than the characters. Luigi's Mansion, for example, almost ensures camping and stalling. Norfair has persistent hazards that force players into bad positions and can deal massive damage, possibly even remove a stock. Fun? Sometimes. Tournament worthy? No.

Just because a stage has hazards you would ban it? Again I say this is the point of counter picks. If you lose, you pick a level you are good at. If that level contains hazards that you've become used to playing around and the opponent has not, you were successful in counter picking. Fair has nothing to do with it. Its meant to be unfair. That's why the loser gets to pick, so they have an advantage. Even if they win "unfairly" you can just choose your counter pick when you've lost.

As far as camping and stalling, there's not much you can do. The game has projectiles and invincibility, so those things are inevitably going to happen. What you can do to prevent or counter it is what makes you a good player. With the stalling addendum applied at PBT, most stalling is limited to running away. This can also be prevented/countered if you know how.

I'm not saying I'm just super awesome and know everything to prevent/counter all this, but it can be done. I have no doubt.

 

[Teh Brettster]

PS1 should be a counterpick, not a neutral. I agree with Angel's logic completely here. It's a playable map, but it has too many infinites and a glitchy spot in the right side of one part of the stage. That's not very neutral-esque, if you ask me. I actually think that Halberd would work better as a neutral than PS1. The hazards are less immediate and don't encourage infinites that would be otherwise impossible.

 

[Fogo]

By that logic...

So following your logic...

By this same logic...

So following this same train of logic...

And by YOUR logic...

I agree with Angel's logic completely here...

PLEASE stop saying that.

 

[Infinitysmash]

PLEASE stop saying that.

 

[Ratatat]

hahahaha
that's hilarious fogo, I miss Dallas smashfests :/

 

[Fogo]

I don't get it

@Ratatat: yes i thought so too lol

But seriously, reading that word so many times is making my head hurt.

 

[DallasPhat]

Give Me Some Advice Please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[The Real Inferno]

If kailo34ce thinks he (she? WTF is with that avatar?) is hot stuff, he's perfectly welcome to money match anyone in Kansas. I could always use the extra cash.

 

[Genie]

Fogo are you tryin to use logic to prove that our logic is not logical? By your logic, our logic can prove that the logic that our logic is logical, is in fact not logical either. So there...

EDIT: LOGIC! I likez it.

 

[PhantomX]

Why does Dallas start like all of the smash memes?

 

[Infinitysmash]

Because we're ****ing Dallas.

 

[mydadsacop123]

dallas is no 1 in the world
also SMALL WORLD ME N JOSEPH GO TO SKEWL TOGETHER HOODA THUNKIT?
also is ruddys this friday?

 

[PhoenixAlpha]

PLEASE stop saying that. (the word logic)

This post wins. <3 Infinity.

 

[UTDZac]

@Fogo: By that logic, we should all be dead!

 

[Teh Brettster]

PLEASE stop saying that.

... I agree with Angel's -dialectic- completely.

 

[mydadsacop123]

hey is distant planet counterpick?
i LOVE THAT LEVEL!!!
but i hate green greens

 

[8AngeL8]

Just because a stage has hazards you would ban it? Again I say this is the point of counter picks. If you lose, you pick a level you are good at. If that level contains hazards that you've become used to playing around and the opponent has not, you were successful in counter picking. Fair has nothing to do with it. Its meant to be unfair. That's why the loser gets to pick, so they have an advantage. Even if they win "unfairly" you can just choose your counter pick when you've lost.

As far as camping and stalling, there's not much you can do. The game has projectiles and invincibility, so those things are inevitably going to happen. What you can do to prevent or counter it is what makes you a good player. With the stalling addendum applied at PBT, most stalling is limited to running away. This can also be prevented/countered if you know how.

I'm not saying I'm just super awesome and know everything to prevent/counter all this, but it can be done. I have no doubt.

Hazards alone do not a ban make. It's a matter of degree. I like Halberd, I don't like Norfair. It's not a black and white matter, the TO has to make judgements. That's why there's disagreement. I'm much more conservative in my stage decisions than many Texas TO's, which is where the disagreement comes from.

 

[Van Jones]

Lol. You just don't like Norfair because it doesn't allow you to sit in one place and throw grenades for five minutes.

 

[Hylian]

Here's something for Angel/people talking about stages to think about:

Why are you putting emphasis on the level structure for neutrals, rather then evaluating what makes for a fair neutral set with stage striking based on how the majority of the cast does on them?

FD is amazing for characters like IC's,Diddy,D3..where is the stage characters who would be playing against these want to pick?

No stage in this game is neutral of fair for every match-up. You have to evaluate how most characters preform on the stages and take into consideration match-ups and playstyles. Stage striking generally leads to the most neutral stage in a match-up being played first round, but if you eliminate good options for viable characters this becomes flawed.

I wouldn't be suprised seeing Brinstar and Final Destination on the same starter list for example because they are basically opposites of each other while still being fair stages and not having broken aspects. This leads to more playstyles being aquainted for rather then just benifiting characters with good ground control while giving no options for those who prefer to stay in the air.

Think outside the box .

 

[Slaps]

And by YOUR logic, Infinity, Mushroomy Kingdom and Spear Pillar should be neutrals because you should see hazards coming and not set yourself up for them. I know you don't support those stages, but you see what I mean? You can always avoid hazards, but it's a question of whether or not they generate a reasonable amount of interference with the course of the match.

Dude there is a major difference in those! None of the neutral stages will hurt you literally! Spear Pillar sends those pokemon out and can literally attack/hurt you. Mushroomy Kingdom is basically the same except it can't hurt you but if you stand still you die. I don't care what the nuetral stages are my only definition for neutral stage is a stage that if you stand still you won't go anywhere/get hurt/die and so far the neutral stages we have work perfectly fine by that. PS1 doesn't do **** to you those hazards are completely different, I wouldn't even consider them hazards based on the fact that they don't do **** to you! Its not like the fire on the burning house will light you on fire! You have to be stupid enough to get caught in an infinite grab or any BS like that. It's not the stages fault if you get caught under the edge. It's yours! So stop blaming the stages, and like Infinity said just avoid them!

 

[The Real Inferno]

at the Midwest Championships every first match I had was played on the "Neutral" of Halberd XD

 

[Teh Brettster]

So it's your fault if your opponent knocks you into an infinite on the side of the wall at any given time, but it's not your fault if you jump into the Halberd laser and can't DI out of it?

 

[Hylian]

Here's something for Angel/people talking about stages to think about:

Why are you putting emphasis on the level structure for neutrals, rather then evaluating what makes for a fair neutral set with stage striking based on how the majority of the cast does on them?

FD is amazing for characters like IC's,Diddy,D3..where is the stage characters who would be playing against these want to pick?

No stage in this game is neutral of fair for every match-up. You have to evaluate how most characters preform on the stages and take into consideration match-ups and playstyles. Stage striking generally leads to the most neutral stage in a match-up being played first round, but if you eliminate good options for viable characters this becomes flawed.

I wouldn't be suprised seeing Brinstar and Final Destination on the same starter list for example because they are basically opposites of each other while still being fair stages and not having broken aspects. This leads to more playstyles being aquainted for rather then just benifiting characters with good ground control while giving no options for those who prefer to stay in the air.

Think outside the box .

Quoted for new page .

 

[chic]

do you like corneria, slaps?

 

[Slaps]

So it's your fault if your opponent knocks you into an infinite on the side of the wall at any given time, but it's not your fault if you jump into the Halberd laser and can't DI out of it?

Dude Halberd being a neutral is just ****ed up. Yeah technically it would be your fault if you get knocked into an infinite lol. Just dodge better lol

do you like corneria, slaps?

HAHAHAHA very funny Chic... Never taking Ruddy's advice again on stage choice. As you and Brett now know I get screwed over every time. I would have rather done Halberd or Delfino, still water and moving stage i can attack through... Mind Games! Corneria is still pretty good and i could have also done PS1 but whatever what are tournaments for? Better practice against all types of players.

Edit: be prepared for your training brett haha PBT9