Demon Lord Ghirahim's Fabulous Horde of Stunning Features! CONFIRMED ASSIST TROPHY APPEARANCE!

[SmashChu]

Tingle and Ghirahim are "gay". The west will always be standoffish towards them.

People in the west like him. See him requested in that Facebook poll and on 4chan quite often.

Your fanbase? You say that Youtube has more Ghirahim-related videos than Groose videos. While this is true, much of Ghirahim's videos are simply his boss battles - where's the original content there? The highest ranking Groose video, Grooseward Gourd, is completely original content and has around 9,000 likes. The highest ranking Ghirahim video, has about ...600 likes. olol. Your "fanbase", essentially, consists of a tumblr/deviantart fanbase. Don't you know they go crazy for every single prettyboy male who could be implied to be homosexual? The proof is in my avatar. Just because you want to make the Ghiralink Tumblr canon doesn't mean he should be in Smash 4, or that "fabulous" could be a point in his favor.

First, why is the only source you mention is freaking Youtube. That's not a judge of popularity. Or at least not a complete picture. Shorties poll is much better and it puts him at 18 (Ghirahim I mean).

A big reason Groose is a bad choice is he fails, what I call the Sakurai test. Sakurai uses 4 criteria to judge characters. They are.

#1: The character's inclusion must make people want to play the game.
# 2: The character must be unique.
# 3: The character must fit into the style of Super Smash Bros.
#4: They must contribute to the game balance.

Let's judge both Ghirahim and Groose and see how they do.

Ghirahim
1)People already are warm to him, or will at least entertain the idea that he should be in. Something to note is this does not include just popularity but something else. He has to be an easy sell to people, even those that have not played Skyward Sword. Ghirahim can do that and you can see the potential in him.
2)Look at Holder's moveset. He has a lot of stuff. Done.
3)Basically, does the game have to be changed for him to be in. No need. Next.
4)This is always hard to say, but seeing as he has a bit to draw from, he can. He could go toe to toe with Marth and counter him with projectiles and teleports. He has enough to fit into the balance.

Groose
1)People like him, but the problem is beyond that. He's a tough sell for anyone else on the outside looking in. He's just a human with a silly hairdo. He looks like another human character, so I don't think people would look at him and say "He will be so cool." It will be hard to wow people with him.
2)There isn't much he can do. Yeah, people have made some, but it's nothing other characters do already and they do it better. If Groose fails one of these, it's this one. Other Zelda characters have unique abilities and attributes. Even looks. But Groose has nothing. Even with his signature bomb sling shoot, it's just bombs which Link uses and other characters can do too.
3)Again, game doesn't have to fit this one. Most characters will pass this.
4)very hard to say. I can make an argument for Ghirahim, but with no idea how his abilities work and having little to draw from, I would say no.

Ghirahim fits the mold better.
Just because a character has a fanbase, which Groose does, it doesn't mean they should be in. Ghirahim is a better all around choice. He has unique attacks, has people who like him and can be sold to other who don't know who he is before this game. Groose has 1/3 of that. Not saying don't suppose Groose, but don't be blind to what's around you.

I can say that some of the dark times of Pre-Brawl will start sooner with this game. This kind of arguments between thread didn't really hit until towards the end. I can say this thread will be a battleground later one.

 

[Holder of the Heel]

I forgot to bring up the criteria, that's a good point. Might quote your thoughts on that in the original post.

Also, updated the second post with links to SSB4 Ghirahim related things.

 

[Davidreamcatcha]

First, why is the only source you mention is freaking Youtube. That's not a judge of popularity. Or at least not a complete picture. Shorties poll is much better and it puts him at 18 (Ghirahim I mean).

Not continuing the argument, but the reason Youtube was used as a source was because Heel was using them as a pro for Ghirahim in the Groose Thread.

 

[Holder of the Heel]

Which I did because Youtube was used as a pro for Groose. But yeah, its water under a bridge now. :D

 

[---]

Here's the post I promised ya Holder.

Stole this from my blog, I hope it won't enrage anyone, and that it can be found fair:

Zelda Series

In General:

This series is in a very odd state in comparison to the other big Nintendo franchises, mostly because it doesn’t have any real possible newcomer as all the core characters are all already playable (Sheik being in because she's still technically Zelda). Like the Mario series as well, this is also series that Sakurai probably has high expectations for getting a new character.

Ghirahim:

Like Skull Kid for Melee, and Midna & Wolf Link for Brawl he’s the latest one-shot character in the most recent Zelda game. I hate patterns but if no recognition for even Vaati in Brawl says anything, it’s that Sakurai has rather high expectations for the series and becoming playable is not in his favor. But he’s still FABULOUS!

 

[Holder of the Heel]

Do you know how that makes me feel inside? Furious! Outraged! Sick with anger!

Haha just messing with you, thanks Triple Dash. Interesting that you brought up Vaati not even being a trophy, though I will say that Zant was a trophy, which people make connections with more often. Does that make me feel better about this predicament? Well... no.

I'm confident Ghirahim will at least get a trophy. An assist is also possible, he could summon bokoblins or wall off parts of the stage, or charge someone and strike out like he does when you fight him in Skyward. He could also perhaps do something where he summons the red dagger projectiles, locking them in on an enemy (perhaps the nearest, or all enemies?) and after so many seconds they all shoot in like in the battles with him, and you either have to shield or dodge at the right time to avoid the damage.

Wow, I really like that last Assist idea. Would still make a better character though.

 

[Claire Diviner]

So I've only read up on Ghirahim and fell in love with his character based on what I read alone. Actually seeing him in action (courtesy of the videos in the OP), it would be criminal for Nintendo to not add him as a playable character, what with all of the potential he has for a very unique moveset. Plus, I can only imagine how he'd act in battle, seeing as he can go from extravagant and eloquent one moment, to downright insane the next instant as seen later in the story. I guess that's what solidified my fondness for him; seeing how he gradually shows his psychotic side to the point where during his last encounter, he becomes pure madness.

 

[SmashChu]

So I've only read up on Ghirahim and fell in love with his character based on what I read alone. Actually seeing him in action (courtesy of the videos in the OP), it would be criminal for Nintendo to not add him as a playable character, what with all of the potential he has for a very unique moveset. Plus, I can only imagine how he'd act in battle, seeing as he can go from extravagant and eloquent one moment, to downright insane the next instant as seen later in the story. I guess that's what solidified my fondness for him; seeing how he gradually shows his psychotic side to the point where during his last encounter, he becomes pure madness.

What your saying is the taunts may be more interesting than the character's moveset.

 

[Curious Villager]

I'm so supporting this guy. I don't care if he's a "one off" so was Ganondorf during Melee before Wind Waker and Twilight Princess came along. Ghirahim is awesome! :D

In fact, why haven't we gotten the original Blue-Pig-Ganon yet anyway? Is he becoming the "Ninten" of the Zelda franchise or something? If he was supposed to be only a final smash it would have been nice if we could actually control him like with Giga Bowser and Wario Man. :/

 

[Holder of the Heel]

No, what Sol means is that seeing him moving around and in action is what sells the character. That's why I didn't type out a long analysis of his appearances and what he is like. He is far too animated and colorful to do justice by simply writing out an explanation. While yes it does show his moves as well, which helps, but it is the style and personality that screams "Smash Brothers".

The idea of him being in Smash Brothers didn't strike me until the very end where I thought about the character in all his appearances and saw the novelty of it. His long list of moves and potential for original ones is simply icing on the cake for me, in all honesty, despite how much I blow up his moves and how great they are, they really aren't the selling point because there are plenty of characters out there like that, or at the very least have just enough potential (overkill doesn't really add too many points, just means Sakurai gets plenty of options).

Haha nice to have your support Kikwi-Kiwi! I'm guessing we don't get Blue-Pig-Ganon because the Twilight Pig isn't as sick nasty and was more relevant to the time. Interesting though to see if he keeps that (assuming there are still Final Smashes, which is a safe bet, or at least each character will get a move like that somehow), or if he gets an exclusive Skyward Sword model with an original Final Smash (perhaps Demise will really go to him! My idea for Demise as Ghirahim's FS isn't needed, I wouldn't mind Ganondorf getting that instead).

 

[Claire Diviner]

I figured Ghirahim's Final Smash could be his ultimate form you face in his final encounter, as he wields that big Buster Sword-like weapon. His A moves might change to reflect that, and each strike with his sword will cause high damage and knockback, and will also inflict major shield damage when blocked. During this form, to reference his new armor-like skin, he will be resistant or immune to damage while being immune to knockback.

Of course, that's just a rough draft for one idea. Goodness knows, given his pallet of moves, his Final Smash can be pretty much anything at this point.

What your saying is the taunts may be more interesting than the character's moveset.

Read the first paragraph of Holder's last post.

 

[Kholdstare]

Ghirahim has no chance of getting in as a playable character.

 

[Opossum]

He definitely has more going for him than Groose.


But seriously. He was in a Nintendo game. By that alone his chances aren't 0%.

 

[smashbot226]

I... don't really see it happening. Sure, they'll obviously update Link to take on his Skyward Sword appearance but will likely keep Zelda/Shiek in their Twilight Princess attire. Same with Ganondorf, unless they decide to round it out by transforming him into his WW form. At least then he'd get swords.

 

[n88]

I wouldn't expect Ghirahim to show up; Zelda has a lot of one-off characters, and Ghirahim won't even be the hot new thing by the time SSB4 comes out. If he becomes recurring, maybe he'll get into some future Smash game, but I would give him pretty low odds. The only one-shot character like that to make it in so far is Sheik, and she only made it because she got to piggyback on Zelda and add some flavor to the moveset. If I had to bet, I would put money on Toon Zelda before Ghirahim.

 

[MasterWarlord]

I wouldn't expect Ghirahim to show up; Zelda has a lot of one-off characters, and Ghirahim won't even be the hot new thing by the time SSB4 comes out. If he becomes recurring, maybe he'll get into some future Smash game, but I would give him pretty low odds. The only one-shot character like that to make it in so far is Sheik, and she only made it because she got to piggyback on Zelda and add some flavor to the moveset. If I had to bet, I would put money on Toon Zelda before Ghirahim.

To be fair, Sakurai chose almost the entire roster very early in Brawl's development aside from Sonic, Jiggs, and Wolf. Him being relevant right now, this very instant, is what I believe is important.

Otherwise agreed with the rest of the post. His non-recurring status is what does him in.

 

[Deleted member]

The important distinction with Ghirahim is that he indeed has an awkwardly well-timed debut compared to Smash's development and has no competition [unless you think Tingle is relevant, then fair enough]. Super Smash Bros. had no Zelda villains for obvious reasons, though that is somewhat significant. Come Melee, Skull Kid is screwed due to having to compete with Ganondorf, and he has to have a cloned moveset. Brawl's prime candidate I guess is Zant, but that villain barely appears in the game and Ganondorf is still the final boss - Brawl simply updates the models to reflect Twilight Princess rather than putting in Zant. In SSB4, Link and Zelda will be in their Skyward Sword attire, Ganondorf doesn't only not have one, it is actually nonsensical for him to appear in that game due its plot, so he keeps his Twilight Princess model or changes to Wind Waker to give Toon Link a villain. So you have Link, Zelda and random Ganondorf from a different game as a very loose triangle. This is why Ghirahim would strengthen the connection of the Zelda characters if included, he is practically the sole villain in Skyward Sword. It only came out last year and the other two big characters from SS will be in SSB4, plus he's easy to implement.

Just my two cents. I've already made a big post in this thread about how I don't like Ghirahim, but see him as having a good possibility of getting a place.

 

[n88]

The important distinction with Ghirahim is that he indeed has an awkwardly well-timed debut compared to Smash's development and has no competition [unless you think Tingle is relevant, then fair enough]. Super Smash Bros. had no Zelda villains for obvious reasons, though that is somewhat significant. Come Melee, Skull Kid is screwed due to having to compete with Ganondorf, and he has to have a cloned moveset. Brawl's prime candidate I guess is Zant, but that villain barely appears in the game and Ganondorf is still the final boss - Brawl simply updates the models to reflect Twilight Princess rather than putting in Zant. In SSB4, Link and Zelda will be in their Skyward Sword attire, Ganondorf doesn't only not have one, it is actually nonsensical for him to appear in that game due its plot, so he keeps his Twilight Princess model or changes to Wind Waker to give Toon Link a villain. So you have Link, Zelda and random Ganondorf from a different game as a very loose triangle. This is why Ghirahim would strengthen the connection of the Zelda characters if included, he is practically the sole villain in Skyward Sword. It only came out last year and the other two big characters from SS will be in SSB4, plus he's easy to implement.

Just my two cents. I've already made a big post in this thread about how I don't like Ghirahim, but see him as having a good possibility of getting a place.

Hrm. Maybe you have something there with the designs, but it seems just as likely (if not moreso, since this option is less work) that they would update Ganondorf's appearance to be more in line with the others. They're going to have to do the same for Sheik (a Twilight Princess Sheik changing into a Skyward Sword Zelda seems awkward), after all.

 

[SmashChu]

[Read the first paragraph of Holder's last post.

I.....was kind of joking actually.

 

[gothrax]

The important distinction with Ghirahim is that he indeed has an awkwardly well-timed debut compared to Smash's development and has no competition [unless you think Tingle is relevant, then fair enough]. Super Smash Bros. had no Zelda villains for obvious reasons, though that is somewhat significant. Come Melee, Skull Kid is screwed due to having to compete with Ganondorf, and he has to have a cloned moveset. Brawl's prime candidate I guess is Zant, but that villain barely appears in the game and Ganondorf is still the final boss - Brawl simply updates the models to reflect Twilight Princess rather than putting in Zant. In SSB4, Link and Zelda will be in their Skyward Sword attire, Ganondorf doesn't only not have one, it is actually nonsensical for him to appear in that game due its plot, so he keeps his Twilight Princess model or changes to Wind Waker to give Toon Link a villain. So you have Link, Zelda and random Ganondorf from a different game as a very loose triangle. This is why Ghirahim would strengthen the connection of the Zelda characters if included, he is practically the sole villain in Skyward Sword. It only came out last year and the other two big characters from SS will be in SSB4, plus he's easy to implement.

Just my two cents. I've already made a big post in this thread about how I don't like Ghirahim, but see him as having a good possibility of getting a place.

I think you might be missing the possibility of demise? He's a villain from SS who looks and acts so much like ganondorf it hurts -_- and could easily take dorfs moveset with ghirahim as final smash

 

[Deleted member]

Hrm. Maybe you have something there with the designs, but it seems just as likely (if not moreso, since this option is less work) that they would update Ganondorf's appearance to be more in line with the others. They're going to have to do the same for Sheik (a Twilight Princess Sheik changing into a Skyward Sword Zelda seems awkward), after all.

One of the points of Skyward Sword was that it had no Ganondorf. It's a prequel. On Sheik, she is a minor character, she had unused artwork and it is plausible that she could exist in Twilight Princess' universe. There's no precedent for Ganondorf in Skyward Sword.

I think you might be missing the possibility of demise? He's a villain from SS who looks and acts so much like ganondorf it hurts -_- and could easily take dorfs moveset with ghirahim as final smash

Demise appears in the last ten minutes of the game and barely does anything. You fight him, he dies, the end. The best he'll get is a trophy - and maybe a Sacred Grounds stage with an Imprisoned stage hazard.

 

[Bowserlick]

Stole this from my blog, I hope it won't enrage anyone, and that it can be found fair:

Zelda Series

In General:

This series is in a very odd state in comparison to the other big Nintendo franchises, mostly because it doesn’t have any real possible newcomer as all the core characters are all already playable (Sheik being in because she's still technically Zelda). Like the Mario series as well, this is also series that Sakurai probably has high expectations for getting a new character.

Ghirahim:

Like Skull Kid for Melee, and Midna & Wolf Link for Brawl he’s the latest one-shot character in the most recent Zelda game. I hate patterns but if no recognition for even Vaati in Brawl says anything, it’s that Sakurai has rather high expectations for the series and becoming playable is not in his favor. But he’s still FABULOUS!

Midna was expected to be included in Brawl because of her recent introduction in Twilight Princess. She was missing. One might expect Ghirahim to be another one shot character.

However, Ghirahim has potential to be a mainstay in the Zelda series. Or at least have another shot at an appearance. Ghirahim is the "EVIL MASTER SWORD." See what can be done with that? Ghirahim could be a secret sword in a game (that could change Link into Dark Link) or be hunted down by Gannondorf to be able to have a chance going against the Master Sword.

Maybe even a game where you are Gannondorf and you have to assemble Ghirahim to storm Hyrule Castle and slaughter Zelda and Link.

 

[Arcadenik]

By that logic, Fi is more important than Ghirahim as Fi has been in all the Zelda games where the Master Sword is featured.

 

[Bowserlick]

By that logic, Fi is more important than Ghirahim as Fi has been in all the Zelda games where the Master Sword is featured.

And she is in Brawl, in two incarnations. Link's master sword and Toon Link's master sword.

 

[Holder of the Heel]

Oooo I like this discussion. I never thought of how Ghirahim is possibly the one way to represent the Skyward Sword (AKA contemporary Zelda in SSB4's development), for at the most you can update Ganondorf to have a non-canon Demise-like appearance (which isn't entirely the same thing as using an unused Twilight Princess Sheik).

And Bowserlick, oh how I love the optimism in that post of possible ideas of future Ghirahim games. If Nintendo could do any of those, or even a prequel like I suggested, it would be awesome, and it would work. Zelda needs to mature and stop having shallow one-shot things. We need things to connect, to be explained. To those of you who desire Zelda games that grow up, Ghirahim may just be your ticket (or one of the tickets). Respect.

 

[Deleted member]

Thinking about it, wouldn't updating Ganondorf to have a new Skyward Sword design both be deceiving and make the character unrelated almost entirely to the source material? He would now have both a random moveset and a model he never uses in his own series. I know Sakurai is lazy about Ganondorf, but even he has to have limits.

What I'm gravitating more toward now is WW or Toon Ganondorf to give Toon Link a 'rep' so to speak, and Ghirahim to round out the Skyward Sword trio. Sheik I wish would be cut... but in the least, Impa is a big part of SS, so Zelda has some reason to don a Sheikah persona.

 

[Claire Diviner]

If it means anything, they did give Sheik a redesign for Brawl based on concept artwork for her to have been theoretically used for Twilight Princess. Who is to say they won't give Ganondorf a redesign to reflect the style of what he would look like in Skyward Sword? Unless, they replace him somehow with Demise, and give Demise Ganondorf's moveset. I mean, technically, Ganondorf and Demise are one in the same anyway.

 

[Holder of the Heel]

Well, the issues in that are multiple. Very few want Demise in, and that it is Ganondorf that always shows up, not Demise, so people might not be fond of the idea. Having Demise be a Final Smash for either Ganondorf or Ghirahim, or a boss in the story mode are the only three likely options (perhaps an assist).

And while you are right that they did add Sheik in with an unused art style, it was there, while a Skyward Sword Ganondorf is entirely absent, so like I said, it isn't exactly the same thing. In addition, Smash Daddy brings up an interesting point that it then misrepresents Ganondorf and The Zelda Games by doing a SS art style for him, significantly more so than the TP Sheik model, which didn't really confuse anyone. Although I think if that DID happen, the moveset could remain unchanged for the most part and still work.

Never heard of anyone suggesting Toon Ganondorf, I'm afraid that is unlikely to happen (though Sakurai likes his Toon characters, apparently wanting three in Brawl, so it isn't impossible). I think you mean have Toon Ganondorf replace Ganondorf, that might be extra controversial, but it at least dodges the issue of adding two newcomers (assuming Ghirahim comes in like you want, to round it off). It isn't impossible, again, because we were potentially going to get two more characters in Brawl. I seriously wish Sakurai would talk about the data on the disc. >_< But oh well, that'll never happen.

One could propose Ghirahim isn't needed to represent Skyward Sword because Link could simply dawn his appearance in that one (which everyone pretty much expects, although not necessarily wants, according to the Link thread). I'm unsure though that would suffice, for a large set change wouldn't likely happen, it'd perhaps get an accent here and there, a Skyward Sword strike mixed in somehow at the very most. Plus, that Link is still Link, so it doesn't really represent Skyward very much. The villain who has a lot of Skyward style, role, and appearances should do that, and would no doubt do it better.

I wonder if anyone mentioned the possibility of us getting the Link design in the HD demo we saw? I'm going to go check..

 

[Starphoenix]

I think people are forgetting that Ocarina of Time 3D came out. It may not have been a new game, but it was just as important an entry as Skyward Sword. If anything I could see Sakurai going the Star Fox route and blending the two styles together.

 

[Holder of the Heel]

I wouldn't say a remake of OoT is as important of an entry as a brand new game, despite the popularity and importance of the game that was remade.

Off topic, but all of the talk of A Link to the Past and Majora's Mask remakes bothers me slightly, I'd rather just expand on what we have. If we must remake those two, we seriously need to stop there. Too many remakes. I'd buy them... but...

 

[Starphoenix]

I wouldn't say a remake of OoT is as important of an entry as a brand new game, despite the popularity and importance of the game that was remade.

Well it did better in Japan, plus the remake was a big deal. It's like if Square Enix announced Final Fantasy 7 was being remade. Sure, the final product was not as illustrious as I was thinking it would be, but it still was significant.

Anyways, it's not about SS Vs. Oot. The solution to the art dilemma in my mind is to just blend the design of both games together.

Off topic, but all of the talk of A Link to the Past and Majora's Mask remakes bothers me slightly, I'd rather just expand on what we have. If we must remake those two, we seriously need to stop there. Too many remakes. I'd buy them... but...

If any game should be remade, it needs to be LttP.

 

[Opossum]

As I haven't gotten too far in SS yet, as far as Ghirahim's sword-fighting style, what type of swordplay can he be best compared to? Fencing, maybe? Just wondering.

 

[Bowserlick]

Not sure if I am enthralled with WW Ganondorf in the next Smash. I love the boss battle and I do like his design in the game as a mature warrior who has at least some respect for Link.

But, in the Smash game Ganondorf really should represent the Triforce of Power. And that means having all his attacks being scary and packing a wallop. No technical, fancy swordplay. Materializing a colossal sword out of dark energy for a smash attack? Very much acceptable.

Back to Ghirahim. I think his FS should be Demise, so I think Ganondorf should remain Ganondorf. I would not object to a SS art-style either for Ganny. Because he should share the same style with Zelda and Link.

 

[bombers14]

Does Ghirahim have a better chance showing up than zant? cause to me they seem very similar

 

[Bowserlick]

Does Ghirahim have a better chance showing up than zant? cause to me they seem very similar

I will layout my reasons why I think that Ghirahim has a better chance than Zant.

1. Zant is a red herring. That is the only purpose he serves. To throw the player off the scent of Ganondorf for the first half of the game. Skyward Sword is about two opposing quests. Link forging the master sword. Ghirahim resurrecting his master. Technically, Ghirahim is not the final boss, but he is the main villain.

2. Zant will most likely never appear again in the Legend of Zelda. Ghirahim adds to the permanent mythos because he is the evil version of the master sword. In a series where a Dark Link appears often, Ghirahim could be a counter tool to the master sword. He can be a staple to the universe just as the master sword, triforce, Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf appear again and again and again.

 

[Claire Diviner]

Actually, thinking about it now, I can see Demise being Ghirahim's Final Smash, if Ghirahim's final form doesn't cut it. He [Ghirahim] does transform into a sort of "dark Master Sword" that Demise wields, so you're still using Ghirahim during the Final Smash, if indirectly.

He can be a staple to the universe just as the master sword, triforce, Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf appear again and again and again.

And again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again...

Spoiler

But, yeah, your post had very solid points.

 

[bombers14]

I honestly like zants character better but I did like the graphics for twilight princess a lot better than skyward sword so that's probably why

 

[Sully]

I love the idea of Ghirahim being in SSB4. I don't know why I didn't think of it

And good job with the moveset, especially the idea of Demise as a Final Smash

 

[Big-Cat]

But, in the Smash game Ganondorf really should represent the Triforce of Power. And that means having all his attacks being scary and packing a wallop. No technical, fancy swordplay. Materializing a colossal sword out of dark energy for a smash attack? Very much acceptable.

You can still have sword usage while being scary and powerful. Make him use some very powerful, brutal techniques with his sword and you've got that power you're looking for.

 

[Tollhouse]

God forbid if he gets in this game. That would be a slap in the face to fans who wanted Midna in. That lame cliche villain won't get in.