Demon Lord Ghirahim's Fabulous Horde of Stunning Features! CONFIRMED ASSIST TROPHY APPEARANCE!

[Swamp Sensei]

A way for Ghirahim to be in future installments.

Spoiler

Link can choose different paths along the game. One of them is either grabbing the Master Sword or fetching Ghirahim(sword version). Depending on the events, you can beat the game as Link or Dark Link.

That doesn't quite sound like it belongs in Zelda.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Yea I don't know that I like that myself. That doesn't sound like a Zelda game to me either.

 

[LaniusShrike]

Yeah... I would think he would either have to do it because he's tricked, because it's necessary for the greater good, or because he's found a way to completely neuter the blade, making any spirit within the blade irritated but subservient. Maybe the demonic blade would also change shape for him as well as make him look different...

Somehow.

 

[TheKalmarKing]

Or because Link want to be fabulous too.

Anyway Ghirahim would be a good newcomer, though I doubt he will be in, like Skull Kid and Midna.

 

[SmashChu]

Anyway Ghirahim would be a good newcomer, though I doubt he will be in, like Skull Kid and Midna.

I've actually been pondering this:

Back during Brawl, there were a ton of characters. Brawl opened the door for a lot of characters that couldn't have gotten in during Melee. Basically, everyone and anyone got requested. Generally, there were some popular Zelda characters, but they weren't that strong in comparison. Compared to Dedede, Diddy, Wolf or Olimar, Skull Kid and Midna didn't stand a chance. There will still a good number of request for these characters, but they were dwarfed by a lot of other characters. Fast forward to now. First, there is a lot more focus in characters (and this in general, not just Zelda). Rather than have request for three characters (Vatti, Skull Kid, and Midna) they are focused around Ghirahim. Second, this time there are fewer really strong characters. The only characters most everyone can agree on are: Little Mac, Takamaru, Shulk, King K Rool, Ridley, and Palutena. Out side of these guys (except perhaps Megaman), it's up in the air. SSB4 is not dominated by a lot of strong characters. Also, in general, Ghirahim is decently popular and performs better than most character (though still under the main 6).

I think Ghiarahim stands a good chance. I think what was holding Zelda characters back was

1. A Lack of focus. There was a ton of characters that came up. Everyone didn't get behind one guy
2. Competition. More characters hogged the spots. Now, there are fewer mega characters like Brawl which leaves a lot of room for guys like Ghirahim.

 

[Banjodorf]

Y'know, that's a really good point about the Zelda character situation. My hopes for Ghira had sort of waned as a result of a "It's just like all the other one-shot requests" syndrome, but honestly, since I think they're going to be especially going for fan favorites this time around, I think he has a chance. (Since I also only expect about 10 characters, he's totally got a chance.)

Oh, and Ike was also serious competition for them. I think leading up to Brawl's announcement, Pit and MK were as well. Poor Skull Kid and Midna...

 

[SmashChu]

Y'know, that's a really good point about the Zelda character situation. My hopes for Ghira had sort of waned as a result of a "It's just like all the other one-shot requests" syndrome, but honestly, since I think they're going to be especially going for fan favorites this time around, I think he has a chance. (Since I also only expect about 10 characters, he's totally got a chance.)

As someone who once thought that, I'm not a fan of the one shot idea. We haven't seen an instance where it was an issue. I mean, heck,. even guys like Roy are a one shot. He was even added before his game came out. Ness is too. Heck, after Mother 3, Ness is still around despite not having a presence in said game and have the game's director saying "I would have removed Ness if the Earthbound sequel came out."

Strength of the character matters more. Ghirahim is doing well. He did pretty well on Shorties poll.

Also, I think there will be more than 10 characters. Every game has added more characters than the last (64 - 12, Melee - 13, Brawl, - 15). I would be surprised if there was less than 12.

 

[Banjodorf]

Yeah, there are so many characters that prove that relevance isn't a factor, especially over popularity.

For example, Diddy hadn't been in a non-sports game since '99 (I'm counting Donkey Kongas in this) and he was chosen, despite Jungle Beat having more "relevant" characters. Diddy had the popularity factor (and also the Sakurai <3 factor)

Michaiah was the main lord of RD, even though I know Ike did have a storyline, but Ike was chosen because damn was he popular. There's also Lucario, although Pokemon is a difficult beast to pin down in that respect. Unless you're Mewtwo now.

Edit: So the point is that, yay, Ghirahim is popular, and yay, he's got a pretty good chance!

 

[Diddy Kong]

I'd accept Ghirahim. As long as Impa also makes it.

 

[HylianHeroBigBoss]

Man visiting many other sites i cant believe how much people tend to hate on ghirahim even being brought up in smash bros discussion (especially gamefaqs but we know how they are). I believe he would be a great addition, and i think most of the hate has to do with his currently popularity (the hate whats popular fad that continues) and the whole one shot argument against him. Which is sad because he has so much potential, its at least worth it to give him a chance.

 

[FalKoopa]

If Ghirahim makes a 2nd appearance in the Zelda series (which I don't think is really far-fetched), I'll happily accept him.

 

[Vintage Creep]

LOL @ the idea of having Link waving Ghirahim around like crazy.

 

[Holder of the Heel]

*Horde Leader randomly returns after a long absence*

It's good to see some people understand that the "Ghirahim is Zant, Midna, etc." from the Brawl era is a fallacious argument because it assumes a circumstance that simply does not exist now. As a person who used to debate Ghirahim around these parts, that was thrown into my face repeatedly. I think also from a popularity perspective he might be a bit more elevated than Zant, Midna, etc. was back then (speculation on my part).

In addition, the "one-shot" argument, regardless of refutation, sounds pretty weak to me at times when people are simply sheepish about his inclusion purely on those grounds. In the minds of many that is the one hurdle they envision, and honestly if that is all in his way than I think its a testament to the character if the quantity of his appearances is the thing called into question and nothing else.

That whole line of thinking could be discarded if he were to make an appearance in the new 3DS Zelda game. Although his fabulousness would be undermined because of the medium. I'd be more interested in a Skyward Sword prequel involving him and master Demise's initial reign on the Wii U than that, and more than a game involving you wielding Ghirahim (although the idea of him being your "Navi" sounds like a good time ha).

 

[LaniusShrike]

Eh, the one-shot argument isn't that weak- usually the implication of it isn't just "He hasn't been in enough games, he doesn't deserve it yet" so much as "The other candidates have been in more so they're more likely to represent the series" since Smash boarders kind of view character inclusion as a tight competition.

I do, however, still like the idea of Link being forced to wield Ghirahim and have him be your Navi. That is the main way I'd like to see him make a return... I suppose he could return in the same way that Twin Rova (Koame and Kotake) does in the Oracle series, trying to revive their fallen masters... I could see something where Ghirahim comes back to try to get Ganondorf possessed with the spirit of Demise.

 

[Holder of the Heel]

But if it is much less about proper representation and rather assuming that there is an unwritten law about appearances presumed from the past that the one-shot argument is aiming for, then I think it is even less strong than I surmised.

 

[SmashChu]

*Horde Leader randomly returns after a long absence*

It's good to see some people understand that the "Ghirahim is Zant, Midna, etc." from the Brawl era is a fallacious argument because it assumes a circumstance that simply does not exist now. As a person who used to debate Ghirahim around these parts, that was thrown into my face repeatedly. I think also from a popularity perspective he might be a bit more elevated than Zant, Midna, etc. was back then (speculation on my part).

In addition, the "one-shot" argument, regardless of refutation, sounds pretty weak to me at times when people are simply sheepish about his inclusion purely on those grounds. In the minds of many that is the one hurdle they envision, and honestly if that is all in his way than I think its a testament to the character if the quantity of his appearances is the thing called into question and nothing else.

That whole line of thinking could be discarded if he were to make an appearance in the new 3DS Zelda game. Although his fabulousness would be undermined because of the medium. I'd be more interested in a Skyward Sword prequel involving him and master Demise's initial reign on the Wii U than that, and more than a game involving you wielding Ghirahim (although the idea of him being your "Navi" sounds like a good time ha).

Welcome back.

The problem is that when you hang around the same place you start parroting the same things. Birds of a feather, flock together.

I disagree with the arguments against Ghirahim because we have yet to see them hold water. For instance, they say "Ghirahim is too new," but when has that been an issue. Lucas's game came out in 2006 and he was in Brawl. Lucario's game, Diamond and Pearl, came out in late 2006. Sheik was only around for a few years. Ghirahim has been around longer than these guys were from Brawl, so there doesn't seem to be an issue there. Also, not sure why every Zelda character gets stuck in the same bucket. Why is he like Zant? Or Midna? He's nothing like them. This is another issue with Smash speculation; people try to compare characters 1:1. You have to look at them as they are. Ghirahim is a victim of common knowledge. He doesn't work like everyone else, yet people still see it that way.

Case in point: forge your own ideas. Use the evidence that makes sense, not trying to link characters to characters. The speculators were wrong during Brawl for this reason.

 

[Holder of the Heel]

Ah, Smashchu is still around here, that's good to hear.

You're absolutely right I suspect. When people debate Smash newcomers, people assume a lot in doing so, that was often the case when I was here. It's when I realized that it isn't so clear cut and simple did I decide to partake less in this part of the forums until more information is released. I'm here now because, popping in, I saw some people discuss Ghirahim a little while I was gone.

At any rate, the only things we really have to assume are Sakurai's interest in popularity, their potential, their ability to fit in with the style, and to have, of course, come from a video game. Issues of IP or too many third party representation do not even come into play with him, so we just have to ask: Do people want him? There's a moderate following. Does he fit in Smash? My opinion here, but he does so pretty well, even more than some already in the series. Does he come from a video game? Well of course.

I think it's merely a matter of competition between the ones who are desired, in addition with a competition between possible other Zelda newcomers considering he may or may not be worried about over-stuffing it.

 

[SmashChu]

Ah, Smashchu is still around here, that's good to hear.

You're absolutely right I suspect. When people debate Smash newcomers, people assume a lot in doing so, that was often the case when I was here. It's when I realized that it isn't so clear cut and simple did I decide to partake less in this part of the forums until more information is released. I'm here now because, popping in, I saw some people discuss Ghirahim a little while I was gone.

At any rate, the only things we really have to assume are Sakurai's interest in popularity, their potential, their ability to fit in with the style, and to have, of course, come from a video game. Issues of IP or too many third party representation do not even come into play with him, so we just have to ask: Do people want him? There's a moderate following. Does he fit in Smash? My opinion here, but he does so pretty well, even more than some already in the series. Does he come from a video game? Well of course.

I think it's merely a matter of competition between the ones who are desired, in addition with a competition between possible other Zelda newcomers considering he may or may not be worried about over-stuffing it.

I can say one his popularity, he does pretty well. Shorties poll has him at 9th and he has 150 votes on Smashboard. Nothing amazing, but nothing to gawk at either.

 

[Shorts]

Hey LoZ nerds, does this list contain all ofLegend Of Zelda's Promintent, Important, and Fan Favorites?

Link
Zelda
Shiek
Ganondorf
Toon Link
Young Link
Ghirahim
Impa
Majora (Skull Kid)
Midna
Tetra
Tingle
Toon Ganondorf
Toon Shiek
Toon Zelda
Vaati
Wolf Link

I'm not looking to simply expand this list, but to add any characters that fit one of those THREE categories. Unless you have a personal fave, then I'll add them

 

[Deleted member]

I think you should add one for ALTTP Link simply because we should expect it being tossed around more as time goes on.

 

[Shorts]

I think you should add one for ALTTP Link simply because we should expect it being tossed around more as time goes on.

*sighs* I know. Partly why I'm waiting for E3 for some more info ALttP's villain

 

[HylianHeroBigBoss]

Should toon sheik be on there? Technically she doesnt even exist in any form. Oh and groose needs to be on there

 

[Shorts]

Should toon sheik be on there? Technically she doesnt even exist in any form. Oh and groose needs to be on there

I'll add Groose, and Toon Shiek almost existed enough to be in Brawl, so she can be on this poll.

 

[HylianHeroBigBoss]

I'll add Groose, and Toon Shiek almost existed enough to be in Brawl, so she can be on this poll.

That could have still just been a nickname they used for tetra as well, im just saying i dont think she should be in as a prominant zelda character if tetra is in there since toon sheik has no presence at all since she never appeared and never made it past the planning stages.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Aghnahim has a chance of returning I'd think. And so does Ganon. With Trident and all. Ganon should definitely be up there though.

 

[FalKoopa]

I think Ghirahim's chances have decreased by a small but considerable amount after the reveal of the new Zelda game.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I think Ghirahim's chances have decreased a small but considerable amount after the reveal of the new Zelda game.

The "recency" was his biggest argument.

Now that's gone.

 

[FalKoopa]

The "recency" was his biggest argument.

Now that's gone.

Yeah.

I was actually a bit irritated by some users like DSN who called Ghirahim a shoe-in.

 

[Frostwraith]

It seems that Ghirahim is starting to become old news. Shame, as I actually would like to have him in Smash 4...

Oh well, I'll be fine with Ol' Ganondorf.

 

[HylianHeroBigBoss]

I think Ghirahim's chances have decreased by a small but considerable amount after the reveal of the new Zelda game.

I dont think they have decreased, smash bros has always favored main console zelda games over all else, and i doubt that will change much this time around with only WWHD and ALTTP2 on the table. Like last time they could focus on everything that has come out since brawl, and SS will still land on top.

 

[FalKoopa]

I dont think they have decreased, smash bros has always favored main console zelda games over all else,

You do have a point. BTW, had Nintendo hyped Minish Cap and Phantom Hourglass as much as it hyped OoT3D?

 

[HylianHeroBigBoss]

You do have a point. BTW, had Nintendo hyped Minish Cap and Phantom Hourglass as much as it hyped OoT3D?

It didnt feel like they did, the most they did for PH was the special Zelda DS bundle.

 

[N3ON]

People shouldn't have gotten their hopes up for Ghirahim anyway. Acting like there wouldn't have been a Zelda (or at least a Zelda announced) between 2011 and whenever SSB4 comes out was misguided. Ghirahim's chances aren't nothing, but they were never great to begin with anyway, and anybody who said he was a "shoo-in" was... well... wrong. Though what DSN says should never actually be listened to. When SSB4 does release, Ghirahim will likely still be a one-shot character from at least three years and a console prior, with one or more new Zeldas out/unveiled since then. If Midna, a character who's game was promoted simultaneously along with Brawl, and actually appeared on the same system, in the same timeframe, and whose game got the majority of the content for Zelda couldn't make it, I wouldn't hold out too much more hope for Ghirahim.

 

[Holder of the Heel]

I highly doubt that a console Zelda will come out prior to SSB4, and even if announced, it'd be a bit late to start incorporating that into the game then. Skyward Sword will still be the major recent Zelda release in relation to SSB4. The new 3DS Zelda will be out over a year after the game started development and, given the game it is, isn't going to have that much of an impact on the representation of Zelda in SSB4.

At any rate, Ghirahim not appearing again before the release of SSB4, which is going to be the case, that doesn't make him a "one-shot" character but rather a character only used once with still the potential to come again. I also still don't see the exact parallel between Midna and Ghirahim, I'm just not seeing it given what they are, how they'd be included, and even attributing this parallel across two games, Brawl and 4, that are in two different situations in regards to their roster.

All of this being said, I'm not trying to erect a beacon of hope for the character, but even if we aren't going to take the skeptical view that doesn't assume anything that leaves his inclusion a possibility, there isn't much reason to expect he is all but confirmed to not appear.

 

[N3ON]

I highly doubt that a console Zelda will come out prior to SSB4, and even if announced, it'd be a bit late to start incorporating that into the game then. Skyward Sword will still be the major recent Zelda release in relation to SSB4. The new 3DS Zelda will be out over a year after the game started development and, given the game it is, isn't going to have that much of an impact on the representation of Zelda in SSB4.

I don't doubt that SS will likely represent the majority of the Zelda content in SSB4 (if TP and Brawl are anything to go by - personally I would prefer a more equal treatment of Zelda content, though SS should still get a stage and everything), I just don't think it will amount to anything more than TP did for Brawl, which was the design of the characters, and the non-character related content. Wii U Zelda might be unveiled before SSB4 releases, but I agree the content from it will be minimal to none. I don't think however, just because SS will receive the majority of the content, Ghirahim's chances are therefore good. Stuff like stages and trophies are a lot different than characters for a series like Zelda.

At any rate, Ghirahim not appearing again before the release of SSB4, which is going to be the case, that doesn't make him a "one-shot" character but rather a character only used once with still the potential to come again. I also still don't see the exact parallel between Midna and Ghirahim, I'm just not seeing it given what they are, how they'd be included, and even attributing this parallel across two games, Brawl and 4, that are in two different situations in regards to their roster.

Well, until he does re-appear, which, who knows, maybe he will one day, he is a one-shot character. It would be different if he was hinted, either in game or by Nintendo, to possibly reappear again, but afaik he hasn't. And Ghirahim and Midna aren't in the exact same situation, but they are in a similar one. There are several parallels to draw between them, such as being highly popular (for a time) major supporting characters in one title, who at one point had a fairly large demand for Smash, and so far have only appeared once each. Midna if anything has the upper hand, as her game was released fairly close to Brawl's original projected release, and was on the same system, where Ghirahim will be several years old, and definitely not in his prime or at his peak. I'm not saying necessarily Midna is more deserving, I'm just saying Midna had as much if not more going for her, and she still didn't get included, so seeing as there are definite similarities, it should be no surprise if Ghirahim is also excluded.

All of this being said, I'm not trying to erect a beacon of hope for the character, but even if we aren't going to take the skeptical view that doesn't assume anything that leaves his inclusion a possibility, there isn't much reason to expect he is all but confirmed to not appear.

I get that, and I'm not trying to come in and rain on his parade really, I'm just trying to look at things realistically. Nowhere did I say he definitely won't appear, I just think the chances are strongly against him. It's hardly impossible he gets included, even if unlikely.

 

[Holder of the Heel]

I don't doubt that SS will likely represent the majority of the Zelda content in SSB4 (if TP and Brawl are anything to go by - personally I would prefer a more equal treatment of Zelda content, though SS should still get a stage and everything), I just don't think it will amount to anything more than TP did for Brawl, which was the design of the characters, and the non-character related content. Wii U Zelda might be unveiled before SSB4 releases, but I agree the content from it will be minimal to none. I don't think however, just because SS will receive the majority of the content, Ghirahim's chances are therefore good. Stuff like stages and trophies are a lot different than characters for a series like Zelda.

Yeah, I definitely don't think that makes his chances good as a character. My point is simply that the years between SSB4 and Skyward Sword aren't much in the way of making it seem he is unfitting. I said that because you mentioned those who were expecting no Zelda games between no and SSB4 were misguided and figured that you had a point in that it had something to do with his inclusion. You go on to mention however the fact that Ghirahim is aging, which is unlike Midna's circumstance, and therefore you feel that if anything you'd be inclined to think his odds are even less likely by virtue. There was a year of dust on Midna when Brawl began development. There was a year of dust on Ghirahim when Uprising was released and SSB4 began development. I find their circumstances similar in that regard, not that it's a good thing because she didn't get in.

But that was Midna, who arguably has less potential to fit in Smash than Ghirahim considering her lack of fighting, and/or dependence on riding a Wolf version of Link, which may or may not have been to Sakurai's interests. But the main point is that if we are to get a 50~ character roster, SSB4 is going to have to be more liberal than Brawl, Brawl had bigger contenders to choose from. While I'd always appeal, if anything, to popularity for a character's likelihood because Sakurai listens and takes a large sum of the top desired newcomers and adds them in, in this title it is all the more important because conceptions of who deserve it more are waning this time around in comparison. Ghirahim's demand isn't large, yeah, but it's there, he appears in polls (and in a Japanese magazine poll if I remember correctly). By bringing up his little following I'm not arguing his likelihood, but that even insofar as he is similar to Midna, he might actually have more of a shot because the outer circumstances might be more kind.

Of course, Sakurai may very well leave the Zelda representation alone entirely, I find it less likely than last time around, but still a definite possibility.

I get that, and I'm not trying to come in and rain on his parade really, I'm just trying to look at things realistically. Nowhere did I say he definitely won't appear, I just think the chances are strongly against him. It's hardly impossible he gets included, even if unlikely.

Geez, N3ON, stop raining on his parade...

 

[Diddy Kong]

Midna = Ghirahim
Toon Link = Impa

Don't shoot the messenger. Just sayin'.

 

[Deleted member]

The "recency" was his biggest argument.

Now that's gone.

I still maintain that the biggest thing going for Ghirahim is the fact that he plays such an important role in the Zelda franchise within Skyward Sword. That doesn't change just because he doesn't appear in a recent game anymore (and I don't play the recent card for any character whatsoever).

I knew never to really get my hope up for him (always maintained that he was certainly possible but not likely), but I still do maintain him being the most likely Zelda addition to be made.

 

[Diddy Kong]

With so many Zelda titles coming out, and Ghirahim never gonna be a part of one- how is he likely?

 

[Deleted member]

If Midna, a character who's game was promoted simultaneously along with Brawl, and actually appeared on the same system, in the same timeframe, and whose game got the majority of the content for Zelda couldn't make it, I wouldn't hold out too much more hope for Ghirahim.

While I'm not an advocator for Ghirahim, this is an unfair comparison.
Sakurai decided upon the roster on July 7, 2005, before Twilight Princess came out.
As such, Midna's popularity for Smash didn't really rise until after TP came out, at which point it was too late for her to stand a ghost of a chance.

Ghirahim is not in the same situation. Sakurai commented around September 21, 2011 that characters had not been decided at all (in response to the Universe rumors), and development on the game officially started around February 21, 2012.
So the roster had been decided upon somewhere in between those dates.
Coincidentally, Skyward Sword was also released in between those dates as well. So it really all depends when the roster had been decided that determines the chance of Ghirahim being one of the characters decided upon or not.
But then you consider that Ghirahim was sort of popular even before the game was released....