Dedede Tactical Strategy 20 - IC's Desynchs

[CRASHiC]

I'll invite the ZSS boards.

 

[OMG H4X]

hmmm armor pieces huh? those suck lol

airdodge catching always helps. waddles help too if you can predict when ones coming.

most of the time ill try to p shield them, then try to pick some up with some dairs to get the pieces out of the way.

 

[Tekk]

I think tossing waddl dees to block them is as bad as doing it to counter olimar's pikmins: during the lag of your 1st toss, she can throw another piece of armour in your face.
But yeah, airdodge catching is a good idea.
I think the most important thing about them is not trying to throw them to ZSS, she always will catch them back easily.
If you got a piece of armour, just throw it offstage.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Don't do anything with lag
Z catch them to be lagless, and throw them offstage. Don't mind if you get a 17% sideB as punish or anything, getting those pieces away is nr 1 priority.

If a ZSS is above you with an armor piece, roll away asap. But only once though, now they cant use armor piece as a dair, and they cant throw it sideways as effectively as before.

 

[ThreeSided]

I actually recently started the thread on the ZSS boards specifically for Suit Piece (SP) Metagame development.

I've been working on some SP stage control ideas. The idea is that you throw pieces up in different parts of the field, utilizing glide tossing and other techniques to try your best to keep them all up in the air. This gives us good stage control, to add to our pressure. We can stop you from getting a hold of the pieces by applying our own pressure, and jumping up to catch falling pieces that would otherwise likely fall into your hands. You can't juggle us when we go above you because of lack of good juggling moves, and because it's generally dangerous to be below us when we have a SP in hand. It gives us a legitimate Dair.

Also, you should try your best not to jump when we have a piece in hand. We can easily punish landing lag. Because of that, it might be dangerous to jump and aIirdodge catch a SP when we have another one available.

 

[Jupz]

Does Ftilt cancel them? What about Bair?

And why shouldn't we just throw them back? Throwing them away gives us a bit of lag and doesn't put any pressure on her at all. Sure, shes most likely to regain control of them, but while we have a piece we have the advantage. We could at least throw it up or down.

 

[CRASHiC]

DON'T GIVE US OUR ARMOR BACK
If you do, we will watch it and a ZSS with a piece of armor in her hand = something you don't want to mess with. You name a weakness she has, its all taken away when she has a piece in her hand. Her weakness below her, her lack of kill moves, her weak ground game, its all covered when she has an item. She can abuse the item far better than D3 can.

 

[Zip.]

B air and F tilt cancel her parts?(i honestly don't think they do, somebody answer that)
all i can think of is powershielding the parts or z catching them.

 

[Jupz]

Crashic, couldn't we throw them up, let her try to get to them if she wants. Then we can grab them out of the air, keep control of them for a long time, and throw them when theres an opening.

 

[CRASHiC]

Throwing them down so they bounce is probably a better option, as you'll just be standing there waiting for them to fall for a while. But then ZSS most likely has more armor pieces.
Regardless, ZSS's abilities when she has an armor piece in hand, her ability to grab the piece instead of you grabing it, her superior glide toss (lol this penguin can't slide ), and the mixup game she gets off of it is just incredibly superior than ours. If you want to abuse ZSSes weaknesses, get rid of the item pieces. Her mobility means she'll snatch them from you like it was nothing. And beware glide toss to down smash.

If its a friendly match, inhale, because then you get D3s cute I'm eating! face :3

 

[ThreeSided]

Crashic, couldn't we throw them up, let her try to get to them if she wants.

K. Not like it will be hard. Our massive jump height and vertical speed will make it quite easy to safely Z-catch them out of the air. =P

 

[o-Serin-o]

Throw the god**** pieces away.

That is all.

 

[Jupz]

Ok, now we know what to do with them once we have them.

Any traps/tactics to beware of? What ZSS will most likely do with the pieces? How to catch them? How to make yourself as safe as possible?

 

[CRASHiC]

That is really hard to define Jupz, as it varies from player to player, and even in the general sense, its still really complicated to sum up quickly, so I'll just link this thread.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=256423

 

[Jupz]

Nice link crashic. As I can see its very hard to guess what they're most likely to do, but any tips/ways to make us safe?

 

[ThreeSided]

Find a move that cancels with them. I bet you your Neutral jab does. Most characters' do. I bet Ftilt cancels too, which would be great because of the ranges.

And try to avoid being below us. And of course you never want to be below ZSS either, so basically, don't get close. =P

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

I've recently started using it as a dair

Shieldpokes like crazy, so do the rolling thing i posted a while back

 

[o-Serin-o]

Imma say my catchphrase that should be patented by now.





Stay in the god**** air and Z catch the pieces if she throws them up. Land on the side of the pieces, or the ledge, wait for he reaction, and work accordingly. She can't throw the pieces horizontally without them going off stage and with the pressure of you on the ledge or behind her, grab the pieces/ledgehop dair/ledgedrop > jump > bair/ and start the match without the pieces.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Lol no, get in the air and we'll infinite juggle you.

 

[CRASHiC]

Down air beats upair

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

dtilt beats dairs landing lag
upb beats dair if you space it right
usmash ololol
grab

Zero suit is designed for juggles, especially with that damm sexy usmash

 

[CRASHiC]

I pull a Vex and auto cancel and never land. What now?

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

I pull a Vex and auto cancel and never land. What now?

chance that we'll take a no platform stage is quite... small.

Still, that's true, but we're also good at catching landings, so while I'm down on the ground, you have to land... scary!

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Maybe this is obvious but I wouldn't inhale. The lag is destructive and ZSS shouldn't be fthrowing vs. Dedede anyway. Waddle Dees get taken out by the pieces, but I don't know if the piece's movement will be cancelled on hit. The pieces are not stopped by disjoints, so no to bair/ftilt/whatever else. Even if they did, those moves aren't fast enough or reliable to put you in any strategically advantageous place. ZSS will simply nail you with another piece from a different angle.

I wish I had a good answer but the suit pieces are one of the reasons I think ZSS beats Dedede as badly as she does, he just doesn't have a reliable answer. My suggestion is if you get one, just throw it away, but she'll only need one suit piece to make your life hell.

Also CRASHiC, yeah, uair is "beaten" by dair in the sense that the hitbox is a lot bigger than uair but you can hit around the hitbox and can just punish the startup, uair is only 4 frames.

 

[CRASHiC]

We don't have any frame data sadly to be comparing frames, but I do believe that down air's starting frame is very respectable. If my Brawl wasn't broken I'd go test the frame on it, but it does appear almost instant.

 

[solecalibur]

Honestly if its your first time vs ZSS throw all the pieces out but one because it takes a bit of time to get use it the armour (They are not in any way bananas so glide toss as well)

Waddle Doos and Dees (Gordos I dont know) should make the pieces stay in place once they hit them as well

My D3 exp is terrible since Im in the midwest but with the friendlies I'd played this should be viable info

Sorry if anything else was already said Im still a bit tired and dont feel like reading

 

[Jupz]

Ok that was a very productive topic guys nice work.

Now were going to discuss Pikachu's Quick attack and the QAC.

 

[Tekk]

I just don't know about it, it's hella hard to punish if the pikachu's good, but you can predict it I think, and at high percent a Dsmash on a QAC isn't too hard to land

 

[Ling Ling]

He can just bait you to do it and punish. QAC doesn't have a reliable counter because you can't react to it, you'll have to predict it. Zoning Bairs could help but that's just asking him to camp more. IDK lol

 

[AtotheZ]

I think uptilt beats it, and you can grab him out of it but the timing is strict

 

[dawall250]

i wish this had been recorded, but once finals are over i'll try to recreate it. i have once baired the sparkly part showing the line of where pika was moving, and despite pika's body clearly having gone past the point i baired, he got hit by it. it was really weird, but it was past 3 minutes and no infinite replay =/.

 

[Toneh]

if you see it coming you can easily uptilt or back air it.
If they are already inside of u, shield it and wait for them to cancel the quick attack into the air then hit em.
Its a fast move but pretty much anything will knock him out of it

 

[Zip.]

all i could think of is trying to b air him out of it.(i have like 0 pikachu experience x.x)

 

[BeaVeR]

C-stick to attack, and Dtilt him that's what i'd do or Bair

 

[Jupz]

Why must Cstick be set to attack lol?

 

[Commander_Beef]

all i could think of is trying to b air him out of it.(i have like 0 pikachu experience x.x)

Good thinking Zip!
Back air, as usual, is the safest and best offensive option we have. If we're grounded and we're not facing backwards by the time Pikachu does the quick attack cancel, I think up tilt will outprioritize it too if we time it correctly.
Just shielding the entire thing, and shielding his followup attack is good too. Try to punish after we shield Pikachu's followup attack, whatever the attack may be.

 

[Zip.]

C-stick to attack/tilts

i tried that at like the 2nd tourny i went to
it ****ing sucks dude imo XD

 

[CRASHiC]

too many jumps, I'm not even sure why

Did anyone ask the pika boards?

 

[Zip.]

Good thinking Zip!
Back air, as usual, is the safest and best offensive option we have. If we're grounded and we're not facing backwards by the time Pikachu does the quick attack cancel, I think up tilt will outprioritize it too if we time it correctly.
Just shielding the entire thing, and shielding his followup attack is good too. Try to punish after we shield Pikachu's followup attack, whatever the attack may be.

im pretty sure d smash and d tilt will work as well..
grabbing him out of it...uh im not sure.

 

[lain]

Bairing through QAC is really ****ing annoying to try and pull off.

A good pikachu will QAC through you and annoy the **** out of you until they learn that you know how to hit them out of it, then they will only QAC to avoid bad situations.

I always utilt the second I see the pikachu go for a QAC from ledge to stage.

Also you can pivot grab him out of it too.