Decisive Games NewD3 Mafia (GAME OVER!)

[fontisian]

Fonti, the tracker is turning in to a COP. The tracker is turning in to a COPPPPP

It doesn't get as threatening as that to the scum win condition, surely? There is no way my vote on Swiss is a buddy vote. It even attracted 3 likes for god's sake, and even Swiss is like 'wtf are you doing'.

It's a terrible buddy vote.

Oh.

****, I'm dense sometimes.

The tracker is turning into a cop. And you shot two of the three people who wanted to yeet you. You shot the people who were most likely to track or jail you, it wasn't pr reads at all.

 

[fontisian]

Run me through this, Eido .

The tracker is turning into a cop. Laser is a wolf. If the tracker follows him and isn't shot, the game is over. Why does Laser shoot Gorf and Sabrar?

 

[fontisian]

Fonti, the tracker is turning in to a COP. The tracker is turning in to a COPPPPP

It doesn't get as threatening as that to the scum win condition, surely? There is no way my vote on Swiss is a buddy vote. It even attracted 3 likes for god's sake, and even Swiss is like 'wtf are you doing'.

It's a terrible buddy vote.

Here's another thing for you, Eido.

If it's so important to scum that they not be tracked or jailed once they see Somi is going down, why don't they bus?

 

[fontisian]

I will not yeet:
I would not like to yeet: bessie, fonti, Gorf, Swiss
I would consider yeeting: LaserGuy, wam
I would like to yeet: Eido, Maven, somi

I will not yeet: Gorf sabrar
I would not like to yeet: Swiss fonti laser Bessie
I would consider yeeting: wam eido maven
I would like to yeet: somi

vote: somitomi

Eido pointed out a reason I should be clear, because I would either have to be out of my damn mind or extremely certain of my pr reads to shoot Sabrar and Gorf instead of someone like Laser or Bessie who were much likely to track me if they had that role.

The person with the most to fear from one of these two being a tracker was Eido. Followed by maybe Wam or Laser, though frankly, if I were scum!Laser, I would have shot me.

 

[Wam]

Vote eido

Swiss I'm not going anywhere other than ffont and eido

I can see that exchange being svt.

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

OFFICIAL VOTE COUNT v2.4

Laserguy (2): Eido, Swiss
Eido (2): Fontisian, Wam
Fontisian (1): Laserguy

Not Voting (2): Bessie, Maven

With 7 alive, it takes 4 votes to eliminate!

Deadline is in approximately 8.5 hours

 

[Eido]

So, Laser shoots Gorf because he was being heavily Town-read, and was correct on Somi. Just an all around powerful blocker to eliminate from the game.

Laser maybe shoots Sabrar because he's aware engagement levels are low. Sabrar also places him low on his reads list.

And yes I’m sure the buddy could bus, but I don’t think they bus or defend hard, because I feel the tracker/jailkeeper would be looking at these regions first. I feel the null space is the safest one for the buddy to reside in, basically. It's the most camouflaged space.

 

[Eido]

This is why I was thinking about Bessie > Sabrar > Laser before Day 2 even begun. And also why I've been spending a lot of time trying to figure out Bessie, because I'm finding it difficult to make calls on Laser's content.

 

[fontisian]

Some notes on somi/fonti up to end of page 10. My comments are in blue:

Spoiler

fonti throws somi into a scumteam with bessie based on a 'shroop'. This is never really followed up.



Says somi is null despite this.



somi doesn't ask what the shroop was or follow up in any way. Doesn't seem concerned.



fonti backpedals. The first of many.



This is fonti's strongest push vs. somi.



But not scum.



somi posts his reads just before this.




Based on comments by Sabrar and I, fonti comes up with this analysis, drops scumread on somi





Switches focus to Swiss with yeetbait Maven as backup.



somi now Townlean.

tl;dr: fonti puts some marginal pressure on somi with the weird 'shroop' thing, but never really follows up on it. Pushes a little against somi, but finds an excuse to back off and move against Swiss and/or Maven instead. Creates distance early, but does what she can to save him when it matters. Although it hadn't occurred to me until the page just dropped half of my quotes as I was writing this, the shroop thing seems really specious considering that these boards lose parts of posts all the time.

Hey LaserGuy , looking at this for a sec, is there a reason you skipped a bunch of my more negative posts about Somi?

 

[fontisian]

The buddy needs to play sensible there because they don’t want to draw the attention of a Tracker or Jailkeeper, especially if they’re the sole killer left.

Quick, wreckless play was a bad move there, but not scummy. Move on

I did some of my own reading I came to conclusion it was going to be between Bessie > Sabrar > LaserGuy

But let me reread with the Night kills in mind.

You said you did you own reading here, but it's not clear on what exactly, nor do I get why you decided to post this before even thinking about the nks. Why didn't you adjust to just say Bessie > Laser and either take Sabrar out or mention that you now see that he's town or something? This feels showboaty.

 

[LaserGuy]

IIRC, fonti has a strategy of flooding the thread with tons of posts when she's in danger as mafia. bessie can verify. No idea if she does this as Town as I've never seen Town fonti this close to being yeeted.

Hey LaserGuy LaserGuy , looking at this for a sec, is there a reason you skipped a bunch of my more negative posts about Somi?

Most of the posts I skipped either didn't have anything I felt was relevant, or there were several posts very close together and I only quoted one of them, or a fragment of one, as a representative point (it's also possible that a post or two got dropped due to a quote fail, though I tried to be careful about this). Is there anything in particular that you feel I unfairly left out?

This is why I was thinking about Bessie > Sabrar > Laser before Day 2 even begun. And also why I've been spending a lot of time trying to figure out Bessie, because I'm finding it difficult to make calls on Laser's content.

You seem surprisingly certain I am mafia considering this.

Looks like fonti is not happening today, though.

Vote: Eido

 

[Eido]

I don't really know. I was happy to see Sabrar dead as it helped me with POE.

Need to bounce for a bit but let's pick up soon

Also Wam I'm going to flip Town. Again, please reconsider

 

[Eido]

Oh, great timing.

 

[fontisian]

IIRC, fonti has a strategy of flooding the thread with tons of posts when she's in danger as mafia. bessie can verify. No idea if she does this as Town as I've never seen Town fonti this close to being yeeted.



Most of the posts I skipped either didn't have anything I felt was relevant, or there were several posts very close together and I only quoted one of them, or a fragment of one, as a representative point (it's also possible that a post or two got dropped due to a quote fail, though I tried to be careful about this). Is there anything in particular that you feel I unfairly left out?



You seem surprisingly certain I am mafia considering this.

Looks like fonti is not happening today, though.

Vote: Eido

It just struck me because you said I post where I said I would yeet Maven or Somi my strongest post against Somi, but I'm pretty sure I had Somi alone at the bottom of my yeet list at one point. I also saw some posts where I went after some nitpicky things from Somi, and I didn't see them in your post.

 

[Eido]

You seem surprisingly certain I am mafia considering this.

Only as certain as a POE can take me. I know very little about you personally, just that others feel Townier.

 

[fontisian]

General question about Laser's scumgame ( bessie can maybe answer this): Would he recognize that the optimal thing for Somi to do Yesterday was claiming Tracker or Jailkeeper?

 

[LaserGuy]

It just struck me because you said I post where I said I would yeet Maven or Somi my strongest post against Somi, but I'm pretty sure I had Somi alone at the bottom of my yeet list at one point. I also saw some posts where I went after some nitpicky things from Somi, and I didn't see them in your post.

Yes, you did have him alone in #338. I lumped posts 335-338 together, of which I noted your vote on #336. The salient point I feel that was worth noting in this sequence is that somi had just posted his reads (#297). You read him as scum in #335-338 and voted, but then immediately leveraged Sabrar and my comments on somi about his reads to switch gears (#341-#348, with some discussion with Sabrar) and immediately move away from somi to Swiss (#349).

 

[fontisian]

Yes, you did have him alone in #338. I lumped posts 335-338 together, of which I noted your vote on #336. The salient point I feel that was worth noting in this sequence is that somi had just posted his reads (#297). You read him as scum in #335-338 and voted, but then immediately leveraged Sabrar and my comments on somi about his reads to switch gears (#341-#348, with some discussion with Sabrar) and immediately move away from somi to Swiss (#349).

Uh, I thought I told you I disagreed with your reason for townreading Somi? I don't think I ever really defended Somi besides being like "I feel like he might flip town, but not enough to not yeet him."

 

[fontisian]

Well, I had less time for this game over the weekend than anticipated, so here are some weakly ordered impressions:
YEAH
Maven - didn't post much, but us lurkers have to stick together.
Sabrar - has been asking pertinent questions, although he seems to have taken the backseat this game a little.
Fontisian - like how they've been trying to help sort the Gorf v. Eido debate out. The absolute confidence they show rubs me up the wrong way, but I couldn't read Xivii at all because of this.
LaserGuy - seems to engage with everyone and think about the responses.
Bessie - feels like her town self, although I think some of her points on Eido are nitpicky even for a bessie tunnel.
Eido - I get like 90% newbie town vibes here, they've been fairly open about their opinions and don't seem to be afraid from drawing attention. Dismissing the possibility of a quickhammer is weird coming from a fairly new player though.
Wam - feels kinda scummy like they always do, so I'm bumping to neutral. I'm not a fan of the "scum are probably lurking" take, but that's kinda personal.
Gorf - has been focusing on Eido and saying very little about anyone else, which just feels off to me. On the other hand, that'd be kind of risky for mafia to do
Swiss - spent most of his time on Eido as well, and the non-committal reads list at the end of #207 pings me a little.
BOO
Ninja'd by the entire observable universe

The Laser read doesn't feel like it's about a scummate. Too short and to the point.

 

[Swiss]

If I'm wrong on Laser, other scum is probably Bessie.

Eido Font Maven Wam town

 

[Swiss]

The Laser read doesn't feel like it's about a scummate. Too short and to the point.

But it takes no stance??

Your read should be the opposite

 

[fontisian]

But it takes no stance??

Your read should be the opposite

The read on Sabrar didn't have an explicit stance either.

It's a read wall, Laser is a soft townread in it because he's three spots above Wam, who is described as null.

 

[fontisian]

IIRC, fonti has a strategy of flooding the thread with tons of posts when she's in danger as mafia. bessie can verify. No idea if she does this as Town as I've never seen Town fonti this close to being yeeted.

I can talk about this for a second.

I'm motivated by two things: interest and need. This applies to both my town and scum games. The majority of Yesterday was interest based, I didn't have a specific yeet I had a need to push, nor was there anyone I needed to save. Today, I started off with an Eido push and thought it would be pretty self-evident, so I had low interest and need. It apparently was not, as I got a few votes at the beginning of the Day and no one joined me on Eido, so I needed to do more and bury him. I did this, the yeet seemed set. I considering looking at other people but can't really spark that interest when I already I'm not going to talk myself out of yeeting Eido. No interest, no need, no activity. Then, the yeet on Eido was no longer set, and I had three votes, so I again had to come in and drag people back to the Eido yeet. The process of talking to Eido sparked my interest again a bit, hence me looking at some other posts from Somi and you. Interest, a bit of need (because I'm worried Wam or you will flip your votes around if I just leave until deadline).

 

[LaserGuy]

Uh, I thought I told you I disagreed with your reason for townreading Somi? I don't think I ever really defended Somi besides being like "I feel like he might flip town, but not enough to not yeet him."

No, you didn't use the exact same points as us, but my impression was that you started looking for a reason to re-evaluate him immediately following Sabrar and my comments, in this post:

If Somi was more in tune with the thread in the early game than the late, then he saw Laser scumreading Gorf. Mmm, one sec.

And came up with one here:

Spoiler

Looking at a towngame, now, can probably dismiss some of the point about not really townreading Eido but scumreading the people pushing for him.

Points in Somi's favor:
Here he's scumreading Heury alone for scumreading Tattertot for bad reason while he's also scumreading tattertot. He's also scumreading Swiss for his push on Sabrar while Sabrar is only his second weakest townread.

The bessie read and placement is also pretty similar to this game.

Points against Somi:
He spends a lot more time thinking about and fleshing out his scum and weak townreads here, mostly because he's looking for scum, not looking for town, and thus doesn't feel like he as concrete reasons to back up his townreads besides "not scummy."


In this game, Somi's townreads feel more fleshed out than his scumreads, so he's townhunting more than or as much as he's scumhunting. This could be scum indicative because it's easier to make townreads as scum (as you already know who the town are) than it is to fake scumreads. That said, he didn't give a lot of reasons for townreading people in his scum game. That's potentially because he was already under a lot of pressure there.

This was fairly inconclusive. Anyway.

Your results were inconclusive, but it was enough that you could look in another direction. You moved on to Swiss in the next post:

Vote: Swiss

Hey Swiss you're boring af.

You then Townread somi:

Spoiler

The town are:
1. Bessie. Putting a ton of effort into the game, clearly trying to think through things. Don't agree with where she's poking around or all of her logic, but I think it makes sense to her.
2. Eido. This dude is trying so hard to figure out the scum of some of you guys are just steam rolling him. Look at his early posts. He's trying to figure out if scum are pushing him, he wants to understand people, he's making independent reads and he keeps trying. Leave him alone.
3. Laser. Town!Laser sees the weaker town (Eido in this game) getting ganged up on tries to protect him. His read of me is wrong, but it makes sense, and it fits with what he knows of my play. He pointed out that Swiss wasn't following up on his reads and trying to figure things out. His Bessie read is good, his Wam read is nuanced and paranoid and comes to a conclusion I agree with, his Gorf read is similar to my thought process when Gorf was moving away from Eido (he just didn't get the reasoning at the time), I think his somi read may also be good.
4. Gorf. Gorf is natural af. He believed his Eido push, and it developed as he was figuring out his own thoughts. His scum game was kind of **** tonally, and that's not eveident here. I've already talked about this a lot.
5. Wam. Remember that asking the next question thing? Wam keeps doing it. He keeps a lot of his progression to himself, but you can see the way it shifts and him looking for partners. This is town!Wam.

The probably town are:
6. Sabrar. He's in the background, yes. But his questions are nuanced and focused on getting useful information. He intercedes when he wants to figure things out or get a specific point across. He cared enough about the Eido addressing the thread thing to find examples from other games.
7. Somitomi. This is a feeling, sue me.

The scum are:
8. Maven. Eido is correct, he feels slimy. Him coming around Eido felt like an attempt to get ahead of the curve as the yeet pressure moved elsewhere not somthing he actually believed. His offer to replace out feels like a scum worried he's letting down his teammates.

And.
9. Swiss.

Stay tuned for a case.

And built a giant case on Swiss very quickly:

Spoiler

Swiss, a Wolf? (Yeah, Probably)

In this post we will be looking at most of Swiss's content post by post, because there's not a lot of it. That's not scummy right off the bat, the game is slow and a lot of people haven't done much. Check the spoiler for details.

Spoiler

He starts off with a Wam push, that's fine. I dislike the general question asking if other people are picking up on Wam vibes, as it seems unhelpful to town!Swiss, who would want to see if anyone jumps on board with him or argues that Wam is town of their own volition.


Decent advise to Eido.


This question is obtuse. Eido wants more information than the first 20 posts of page one because he's trying to figure things out.


This is a bad question. Eido obviously had no idea wtf Gorf was talking about when he freaked out about a potential hammer. The idea wasn't impossible to Eido, it just seemed unlikely because he'd never seen it happen and he didn't think anyone (scum or town) would actually do it.


Eido wasn't asking to meta read people not in the game, he wanted to understand what a Day1 quickhammer felt like exactly so he could gauge the reactions to him in this game. He was not making it difficult for Gorf, and his persistence in asking read towny. Swiss's "looking correct" argument has some validity.


"He's not being honest"

What is this buzzwordy nonsense? I hate the wording in this whole post, feels very slimy towards Laser.


Second verse, same as the first.


Could Swiss get this impression? Maybe. It was like 50 posts in the game, what a thing to push on though. We all ask questions for the sake of questions at the beginning.


Gorf posts this, this finally helps me click on what Gorf is trying to do.


Swiss responds with this. He later claims this is because Gorf wasn't being as aggressive as he expects from town!Gorf, to which I say "what." This isn't Gorf bakcing down, this is him claims something people are using to townread Eido isn't actually alignment indicative and him explaining his vote more. This is further aggression from Gorf.


Numbers added by me, for convience.
1. This is a good read.
2. Hedgy. Whatever.
3. These questions are bad and Swiss repeatedly bringing them up when Eido says he is trying to get to everything feels performative.
4. (Look at me, I'm town.) Not a huge fan of him townleaning me off of me saying I'm town. Like, I am and it actually is a reason to townread me, but Swiss should know that.
5. Mmm, feels like him getting on the Eido is town, actually, wagon too late in the game. Following the thread consensus instead of trying to lead it anywhere.
6. The post from Eido literally explains his previous questions and yet felt like he had to reiterate them anyway. Very performative. There's also no analysis of what Eido is thinking here or an attempt to understand him, he just calls Eido's logic bad.
7. Where's the *ing thought here? He's thinks Eido is town, and what? Why does the thought terminate there? Eido is calling Wam, a person who previously pinged Swiss as scummy, opportunistic and Swiss's response is just to tell Eido he doesn't get to judge people? What in the *? How is town!Swiss not concerned about his scumread Wam using his push as a reason to vote a town?

Look at the readslist, he still thinks Wam is scummy. Why is this just a leftover read from early game instead of something Swiss was actually thinking about in the present?



"I'd be happy to [yeet]," he says, as he in unwilling to vote Gorf for pressure. This excuse of the case being flimsy is *, if he thinks Gorf is scum he should interact with him and flesh out the read, not sit back and do * all.


This is actually very good, and has a chance of helping Eido. It is everything Swiss's other questions lack.


This guy isn't even scumhunting and he has the audacity to complain that Eido is looking at the people who put pressure on. This attempt at shade is ****.

I'm not 100% on it being a scumthing, it goes against the overall thread flow, thought Bessie and Wam did just call Eido wolfy. Moving on.


What do you mean "which wagon," the only ****ing wagon.



...

He wants to know if Gorf is a wolf. You're scumreading gorf. *ing help him, holy *.

Note: This was just after Eido voted Maven, so if Maven is a wolf this could have been an attempt to discredit Eido overall.


Gorf question is fine, I don't think he did stick his neck out for Swiss, though I can see how Eido might have seen it that way.

"Are you going to answer my questions from before" is so useless. Link them or ask them again.


This is a good question.


1. This is fine, just a little late to the party.
2. How is all of Gorg's reasoning correct but Laser and me defending Eido also good? Does not compute.
3. Send the kettle to the pot.
4. Flip flopping is towny, but I can't to that townreading if no reasoning is given at point. It just ends up feeling fake or like Swiss accidentally liked my post or something, idk.
5. I don't see anything to like in Maven's 202, it's just an acknowledgement that people think Eido is town now and Bessie's posts were nitpicky. It's null at best.
6. "I'd [yeet] anyone," Swiss says again, refusing to vote or even push on his actual scumreads in Somi, me and Bessie. This readlist feels very weird. Why is Sabrar at the top, why is Eido so high when Swiss still seems to have some doubts, why is Wam that high? Why are Somi, me and Bessie even scumreads? Swiss says he wants pressure to happen but he's not doing any of it.


This is a post Swiss likes later, not sure why it stands out to him.

Then Swiss disappeared for a while.


1. Scummy how? Use words.
2. He was townreading Laser and scumreading me before this. Even if he ended up liking some of my content, why not talk to Laser about his read? Where's the followup?
3. Agrees that Eido is stiff. Says he might be Pr (to get him shot or something? I can't imagine why else town!Swiss would do this. Scum!Swiss does it because he people assume he wouldn't, I guess). I'm not sure why he was so certain on Eido being town earlier then, the stiffness was an ongoing problem.
4. This is fine, I think that post was kind of towny from Somi in retrospect.
5. Hate the "big brain" disclaimer. I've talked about this. I have no idea what post or posts he's talking about, and I looked.
6. Using Somi to push Bessie, maybe. Not sure why he likes this, Bessie being pedantic was common knowledge and didn't factor that much into her actual reads.
7. Wam isn't inactive, nor up to be yeeted. Idk what this is.


Reads are kind of boring, haven't changed much beyond liking me and Somi now. The total lack of scumreads sticks out, Swiss not come off as the kind of person who focused on towncores over scumhunting. I don't feel like he's trying to do anything really except produce some content since he hadn't in a while.



I dislike this exchange with Wam. Wam is primed to think other people see him as scum, it's not a sign he's scum. The "working hard to make me reconsider" feels over the top and performative, again.

Let's discuss my impression of Swiss. He seems:
1. Competent.
2. Jokey, likes to **** around to entertain himself and others.
3. Decent scum. He knows how to manipulate people and how to fake some town tells. Faking some logic and progressions would not be a problem for him.
4. Aggressive. If he gets a scumread and push it. He expects this same kind of aggression for Gorf.
5. He believes no one should be unyeetable Day 1, and if he's scumreading a stronger player he'll still push it.

Compare to what he's actually done over the course of the game. He seems:
1. Manipulative. He feels very aware of where the thread is moving and being on top of it.
2. Un-helpful. He nitpicks small things in Eido's posts, and asks questions that are busywork, very rarely insightful.
3. Stagnant. His Eido read changed and he claims his Gorf read is changing but that's about it. His Wam read is the same, after the beginning of the Day. His read on me is the same (big brain, but what if wolf?). His reasoning for the Gorf read seems to be the same (not aggressive enough). He likes Somi for disliking Bessie being pedantic, never mind that both and I pointed out the same thing first.
4. Consensusy. People start voting him? Better jump on lurker Maven. People pushing Eido? He'll contribute. People townreading Eido? Sure, he'll contribute to that too. But he doesn't start his own pushes or actually go for anything. He's just kind of here.
5. Non-paranoid. He says he is in some areas, sure, but he doesn't push it or talk it out, and the concern doesn't seem to last.
6. Wolf-wordy. This is a weird one. His language in a few areas feels off to me. Feels like wolves I've seen before. The initial vote on Eido, where he's talking to Laser about it, is one of those. Feels like he's trying to justify his position more than actually trying to get a wolf. The recent conversation with Wam was another. Feels like a spot where he thinks people would think town!him would be concerned, so he pretended to be concerned. This is a hard point to explain exactly.
7. Self-preservationy. He showed up just after I called him and wolf and voted my other wolfread. Could be he was lurking in the thread and didn't feel like he had to intervene because town!somi was getting yeeted. Vote on Maven feels vaguely bus-like.

I also want to note my earlier commentary on your scum game. I feel that you probably pushed more strongly on Swiss than you might normally have in response to this, since I was scumreading you for wishy-washy play and a lack of direction.

Her current solve is that we yeet one of the two lowest hanging fruit players and hope for the best and she... doesn't seem bothered by that. Contrast her reads here to Midnight, where she had a very, very clear, correct direction and was willing to go to the mat for it. Ditto in Apex. Both games were Town!fonti. Contrast the very similar ambivalence of scum!fonti in TIL that we observe in this game. fonti is an extremely strong Town player with excellent instincts and aggressively collects her townreads and pushes her scumreads. The milquetoast version of fonti that were are seeing this game is probably scum.

 

[fontisian]

So, this:

If Somi was more in tune with the thread in the early game than the late, then he saw Laser scumreading Gorf. Mmm, one sec.

LaserGuy , yes I know I'm playing very differently from Apex, I looked over it. That's why I said I was ok with you yesterday.

Was a point against Somi. You were saying his reads were against the consensus, I was saying they weren't if he was more focused on your early game reads than late game ones. The "mmm, one sec" was because I was working off my memory of events, and wanted to go back and check.

That's why my next post was:

Or it's just a copy of Eido's early content:


I mean, it could come from town, sure.. It's just weird that it's so linear and built around this one player, no independent reads in there.

I found that post from Eido while looking for where Somi may have copied reads from you, Laser, and was using it to point out that Somi's reads were not original or against a consensus.

Re: The inconclusive post. That wasn't a reason to townread Somi. As I noted in my readwall, I did not have a reason to townread him. I think if I were scum there genuinely trying to protect him I would have at least come up with some logic to convince other people. I don't really expect a feeling to do much.

Re: Your case on me, I was actually about to talk about that, give me a moment.

 

[fontisian]

somitomi:

A lot of the same problems as Maven, just lacking in content overall, though this is NAI for somitomi just as it is for Maven. I get vaguely townie vibes based on tone and his reads in #297, though thin, are very non-consensusy and do show some original thought, which is promising. I'd go with nullTown here.

Grabbing the somi read since I'm here. I don't think it's particularly damning, town!Laser is allowed to make wrong soft reads.

fonti:

In the previous games where I have played with Town!fonti, her analysis has been very, specific, detailed, and disturbingly accurate. I want to highlight a couple of posts from early in Midnight OPS showing her process: here, here, here, and especially here. She is very candid with her assessments of players, and is rapidly moving toward forming a very solid Towncore that is pretty much unshakeable from her POV for the entire game. We see a similar progression in Apex mafia, both with her Townreads, (here, here, here, here) and here scumreads (here, here, here). This isn't intended to be exhaustive, merely representative. The important point is that she is actively moving towards forming a towncore and that her townreads tend to be strong and difficult to shake.

This is in large part what I've seen lacking in her play so far this game. She isn't trying to move Town together toward a solve, and her reads reflect that. In fact, her #238 seems to suggest she's more interested in controlling the narrative of the game than she is in solving. Her read on me in #210 seems clearly intended to be a scum read, but she hedges hard at the end with her tl;dr. There's a similar hedginess in her read on Eido (#86, which she starts out strong and then quickly backpedals. Was there a substantial change in Eido's process that led her to this conclusion? Not really. Eido's play has been pretty consistent, for better or worse. There is a similar example with bessie and somitomi and then backs down quickly.

Her current solve is that we yeet one of the two lowest hanging fruit players and hope for the best and she... doesn't seem bothered by that. Contrast her reads here to Midnight, where she had a very, very clear, correct direction and was willing to go to the mat for it. Ditto in Apex. Both games were Town!fonti. Contrast the very similar ambivalence of scum!fonti in TIL that we observe in this game. fonti is an extremely strong Town player with excellent instincts and aggressively collects her townreads and pushes her scumreads. The milquetoast version of fonti that were are seeing this game is probably scum.

About wam:

Spoiler

This read feels like a buddy read. Note that fonti never follows up with wam about anything, but throws him into the towncore as well. wam, on the other hand, seems very reluctant to talk about fonti at all. Admittedly, I thought there were more weird interactions between them than I noted on reread, so this isn't as solid of a connection as I had thought earlier.

Mmm.

It's a good case. It gets my town play in Midnight and Apex pretty well. I think it misses a lot of context about this game, but it's hard for Laser to reasonably get all of that without being in my head. I also think, if you look back, Laser, the fact that my plan was "well, I'm townreading all these people, but not Maven or Somi, so let's yeet in there" and me not being bothered by that should be a good look? I can't reasonably be expected to get a strong scumread on Somi when he's not posting, so me narrowing him down through poe (and I was townreading just about everyone else, one way or another around that time) is the next best thing. But I can see why you would think that was scummy at the time.

I'd argue that we disagreed on what Eido's play not changing meant. I moved in to defend him with the expectation that town!Eido, when given space, would develop his own reads and start looking townier. He didn't use that space well or really develop his own reads in a way that made sense, so my concerns grew. Basically, the consistency of play in changing circumstances was the problem. Note that when Eido came back and did drop some decent reads and sounded pretty good, I moved in to defend him again.

I like the connection to Wam, it felt organic, and I remember thinking I could see why you would say that when you hinted at it prior to this post. I do think it's an underestimation of how I treat my scummates, but w/e.

Your point against 238 is kind of bad. I was talking about my positioning and being open about it, I don't need to do that as a wolf. Rather, I can just see that some people are starting to suspect and then pump out some content without addressing those people specifically. From a manipulation perspective, that tends to be more effective. I was honest from the start about caring about my position in town because I'm, you know, town. And I try to be honest.

Hummm.

I mean, there's obvious motivation here for scum!you, yeah? I said I'm interested in yeeting Somi or Maven, scum!Laser obviously doesn't want that. But your push started before I started talking about Somi and it's not a good tactic either? You've seen my towngame, I don't think scum!you wants to provoke me into playing more aggressively when I'm already pushing a teammate and suspicious of you (I was actually town or nullreading you at this point, I think, but I believe you thought it was a scumread, and that's what's important when it comes to you decision making). If you needed an easy yeet so Somi wouldn't die, I wasn't the person to push, basically. Your other scumread was Sabrar, and that has the same issue. He wouldn't get misyeeted over scum!Somi.

 

[fontisian]

I think town!Laser has this thing where he's more suspicious of more experienced and talkative players and more likely to try to push there, so town!him pushing me in this game would be pretty much within the expected parameters of his play. If I were playing more like Apex, then yeah, the scumread on me would feel pretty bad, because he picked up on me being town there pretty well. But I think he may have picked out some differences between my scumplay and townplay that are actually just differences in how I approach things regardless of my alignment, and that led him to a scumread here.

I think it's a little weird that he still has a strong scumread on me when my push on Eido here is pretty similar to my push on Boomfrog in Apex, and my readlist just before eod was more similar to that as well. But, that scumread has clearly faded a bit if he's willing to vote Eido Today, anyway,

I think the person I really want to look at right now is Wam, since he's the one we would conceivably lose to if both Laser and Eido were town. I don't think Swiss is scum, I think he just has a communication style that's a little strange to me. Swiss's constant changes between his idea for the best yeet, and his absolute belief in himself as he does reads very genuine, and makes me think his waffling on Gorf was genuine as well. He's probably my strongest townread (outside of Maven).

I'm heavily relying on Laser and Sabrar's legacy for the Bessie read. I wasn't really thrilled when she put a tone of effort into her thing about Sabrar for Eido, since the effort could have been better used elsewhere. I did like how she underlined a Sabrar read about Eido and Somi, and tried to point us back to it when everyone missed it. Feels like a playful way to get information across, then frustration when we didn't get it. Most likely comes from town.

Wam switching between me and Eido as the more likely scum semi regularly is probably pretty town. Idk, he feels on a purely emotional level like the one who cares the least about which of us dies, compared to Swiss or Laser who seems to genuinely be trying to figure it out. Swiss more so than Laser. I feel like I'm missing some of that from Bessie, but it reads more like her wanting to keep her cards close to her chest than actual disinterest.

This post is a bit of a mess, huh.

 

[Swiss]

Vote eido

Swiss I'm not going anywhere other than ffont and eido

I can see that exchange being svt.

Why

 

[fontisian]

The bod2 where Wam said he wanted me dead more than Eido out of respect for my scum game is the kind of sentiment that comes from town >90% of the time, I think. Not the idea itself, but the way he expressed it and acknowledged that it was ****ty.

 

[Swiss]

Font and Eido are both super bad lynches.

People are tunnelling into thinking game will be over if we 'just' kill them both.

This leaves Laser and perhaps Bessie as scum to coast.

 

[Swiss]

Maven
Eido
Font
Wam
Bessie
Laser

 

[fontisian]

Maven
Swiss
Bessie

Wam


Laser






Eido

 

[Maven89]

I want to kill Eido just to shut everyone up

 

[fontisian]

I going to take one last try to explain why we should kill Eido. Here we go.

The post below is from Mafia and Werewolves. In that game, there were two scum teams, and they could not win together. Eido was on the Werewolf scumteam.

He started looking for townreads at the beginning of the game. His reads were probably mostly honest, because he didn't know who was on the Mafia team. He explained how he was getting townreads with this post:

Hm, Ok.

Why does Wiisp set himself up in this way?

My take is both Mafia teams are not in great positions to hard-defend other players. This is because the defended player could be another side of scum. So to me this incentivises Mafia to scumhunt more than defend. I'm looking at hard-defenses then as a possible Townie reaction because of this.

@Rhand -With your experience playing with Wiisp, do you feel his defence of you is off in any way?

I've highlighted the important part.

See, in this post, Eido has a scum perspective. He is thinking about how scum would feel and then using that to scumhunt, but he only knows how the other team feels because that's how he feels.

That's what Eido's doing in this game, when he talks about how scum. He understands how scum feel intimately (from the fear about the tracker/jailkeeper, to wanting to play it cool) and so he uses that as a basis for his fake reads. And he understands that because he is the wolf.

 

[Maven89]

I mean damn fonti, anyone can understand how scum feel by basis of reading the game rules

 

[fontisian]

 

[fontisian]

I give up.

 

[Maven89]

You have good points but then you flood everything with some real weak ones and wifom, I’m still going to vote for Eido, but for real, chill down some

 

[Maven89]

vote: Eido

 

[bessie]

I'm here! Anything interesting happen while I was at work??

Does goon offload the pressure from them to the role cop like this though? Probably not. Scum!Somi eagerly waits for a case from Fonti because it's an opportunity for him to escape and grab a misyeet on Swiss.

I think you’re putting too much value on the Rolecop. In such a small game the Rolecop’s very likely not going to give any useable results. By that I mean, say Mafia rolecopped Sabrar N1, the soonest they could kill him is N2, and on D2 the tracker is already going to have a result. If it even gets that far; in a small game there was going to be claims by D2 anyway. Really I think that some of the value of the mafia roles in this game is in using the information to figure out the town power roles.

I forgot I gave him that article.

Also, I didn't know Somi was scum.

What does knowing somitomi's alignment have to do with seeing Eido’s power wolfing? I called him out for power wolfing in #342 based on his content only.

No, Swiss, it's not.

Eido:
9. He's following Mantichora's guide to open wolfing to a t. Asking extra questions, constantly posting, faking confidence, memeing. It's all in the guide.

#18: A Practical Guide to Open Wolfing (by Mantichora)

www.mafiauniverse.com

This is exactly the article of which I was thinking; I had been sure Eido was following this since P1; what has been in my mind is thinking if Eido is also scum, or he just a new player that has been influenced by something he read?

15. The B2 slip. It'd be ****ing weird for town!Eido to know the letter and numbers for each setup off the top of his head when he's not a pr. Clearly he did not post while looking at the setup, because he corrected himself immediately afterwards. It's much more likely he already knew we were in one of the B worlds, so when Maven claimed he was immediately like "Ooh, B2! Oh wait, B1 is also possible."

I’ve been thinking a lot about this related to your #1 in the prior post. If everyone remembers, Eido’s setup slip was the only doubt I had in my mind about him being mafia on D1, refer to my #503 . So Eido should have been killed on N1 over one of the others.
And hmmm I never noticed the timestamps Eido posted pretty fast after Maven’s claim.

You need to care for the actual logic on the buddy thing, because the Tracker tuning in to a Cop is a huge game state changer that very likely shapes the buddy's behaviour there.

You keep saying this and I don’t get why you’re fixated on it in this way; the tracker was always going to be able to be used in a cop-like way, it was just indeterminate with two mafia alive and couldn’t be used as a clear. So could the jailkeeper on N1.

For fun, this is from my N1 notes:
YOLO speculation: fonti is mafia, guesses that Eido will jail me, and withholds the kills. Which would be a spectacular play if she can pull it off. Gives her a guaranteed mislynch tomorrow and another day to build some townie cred by letting Eido to be the one to "figure it out". She knows I'm going to come out gunning for her on D2. The 2 kills on N1 provides some interesting possibilities, since it could prove a player was blocked and not doctored.

Can you tell me what types of conversations you think Somi & ??? are having when Somi is about to die? What do you think they're talking about behind-the-scenes?

Knowing somitomi I kinda think its something like: kill Sabrar he’s Deep Thought and will figure out the Answer unless we get rid of him.

IIRC, fonti has a strategy of flooding the thread with tons of posts when she's in danger as mafia. bessie can verify. No idea if she does this as Town as I've never seen Town fonti this close to being yeeted.

I think this is true, refer to Things I like Mafia, and also the power wolfing article. But I don’t know if this is true for town fonti too.

General question about Laser's scumgame ( bessie can maybe answer this): Would he recognize that the optimal thing for Somi to do Yesterday was claiming Tracker or Jailkeeper?

I don’t know, because I’m not even sure why it would have been optimal for somitomi to claim a power role. If he claims a power role, there will be a counterclaim and so scum advantage there, but also a 100% chance that somi will be yeeted D1 or D2. If somitomi claims vanilla town, he can’t be counterclaimed. No gain but lower risk. No yeet is a guarantee until the hammer; Swiss could have happened.

I'm heavily relying on Laser and Sabrar's legacy for the Bessie read. I wasn't really thrilled when she put a tone of effort into her thing about Sabrar for Eido, since the effort could have been better used elsewhere. I did like how she underlined a Sabrar read about Eido and Somi, and tried to point us back to it when everyone missed it. Feels like a playful way to get information across, then frustration when we didn't get it. Most likely comes from town.

I had reasons for rereading Sabrar, it just took a little extra to put it into that format. I wanted to make my point to Eido, but I was also looking for a tracker slip or breadcrumb (and if I found one, figuring out who else may have seen it), and I was looking for anything important in his content I may have missed ( which turned out to be underlined sentence).